I, for one, think its a good thing that the democrats don't cut the funds from the war.

[Smith_3]

Judging from the way the Vietnam war is viewed by many people, even by some on this board who have agreed that Vietnam was lost at "the homefront", I think the last thing we need is another "Dolchstosslegende" that will drag on for decades to come. If the democrats forced an end to the war as it is now, they would surely be using that for ages and ages to as a means of portraying the democratic party as "responsible" for a perceived "defeat".

What I want is for conservatives to truly and indefinately screw up with their policies and to run things into the ground so badly, that even the last fool on earth can see that their way is the sure way to a big clusterfuck. Its harsh, since it involves the loss of life, but apparently there is no other way how people will grasp this. America apparently doesn't want to learn any other way than the hard way.

[RufusTFirefly]

1. So, IOW, you don't mind playing politics with people's lives.

I'll assume you have no relatives in Iraq, either natives or invaders.

[Smith_3]

3. No in fact I don't, but thanks for bringing that point up.

I do in fact mind playing politics with people's lives. But I am not the one who is doing it. I was against the war from day one, but America apparently wasn't. I don't think from this point there is much more damage that America can do to the iraqi natives by staying longer. On the other hand, american cititzens are going to think twice in the futre before signing up for service to a government they cannot trust.

You break it, you buy it.

[RufusTFirefly]

4. You don't think there is much more damage that America can do?

How about this for starters (from three days ago)?

U.S. kills 800 in 3 weeks in Sadr city

I don't support Colin Powell's Pottery Barn theory of occupation.
There is no way that the U.S. can possibly do anything but harm in Iraq at this point.

We're not like a shopper at Pottery Barn. We're like a bull in a china shop. If we want to stop breaking things, we need to get out.

[LakeSamish706]

2. Given that we shouldn't have been in either war in the first place, I disagree. n/t

[Disturbed]

5. This debate is pointless because the Dems in Congress

are not going to cut off the funds for the US Occupation of Iraq.

[RufusTFirefly]

6. Right. Let's not forget: Congress is our boss....

Not.

From what I recall of what's left of the Constitution, Congress is supposed to follow our orders, not the other way around.

[Disturbed]

7. Didn't you get the memo?

Since 911, everything has changed. This Constitution your refer to is a quaint,
irrelevant old document.

[LakeSamish706]

13. It;s just a piece of paper I think the wording was! n/t

[bernynhel]

8. There's still more further into the ground left?

And even if they could run it further as far as it is possible to run it and then kept on going all the way through the center of the earth and out the other side the last fool on earth, whom, from what I am told, is a fifty-something city administrator from Boise, would, given the chance, still vote for a G Bush for the simple reason that dick-heads will always adore people like Rush Limbaugh and will need a Bush-esque asshole to elect as their president. After all, these dick-heads are Americans, too and deserve the opportunity to have representation no matter how hypocritical, self-serving and destructive to our nation, our fellow Americans and to our basic principles their interests are perceived or prove to be.

[sharesunited]

9. I truly am beginning to question whether the occupation is really

all that unpopular.

If the majority party is so fearful of defunding on the basis that THEY WILL LOSE VOTES, this translates for me into the conclusion that America secretly approves of the war.

Seems similar to another dirty little secret. That Barack Obama is unelectable because most white people won't vote for a black candidate.

I sure don't want to lose hope or sound hopeless. But I sure don't want to delude myself about either of these important things.

[RufusTFirefly]

11. The flaw in your logic

Perhaps you are assuming that members of Congress are beholden to the people who elect them. A naive, albeit common mistake. Given the current state of campaign finance, it is very difficult for an incumbent to lose. As a result, members of Congress are beholden to the corporations who fund them instead of the people who elect them.

Stock performance in the last 5 years for

Exxon-Mobil
http://ichart.europe.yahoo.com/c/5y/x/xom

Lockheed-Martin
http://ichart.europe.yahoo.com/c/5y/l/lmt

[Orsino]

10. How much more misery would be enough?

:shrug:

I find myself not caring about the valuable lesson "America" might learn someday if enough brown people die in another hemisphere. If it were only Americans paying the price for American folly, perhaps I'd feel punitive, too.

[Karenina]

12. Americans' basic problem

is never having had bombs dropped willy-nilly on their heads.

[Orsino]

14. I wouldn't call that America's problem...

...but it is becoming everyone else's. :(

[Karenina]

15. Orsino, It's. just. so. sad.

I went to concert in a church. One of the pillars had been left damaged from WWII. It had a bronze plaque that said, "A warning to the living from the dead." I stood there and burst into tears. An elderly woman sitting in the pew nebenan said, "Du hast alles mitgekriegt Mädel. Dry your eyes now." Forgive my D'englisch. This is very hard for me to type.