Carrier - I challenge you to watch it.

[cbayer]

The ten hour PBS documentary on the US Nimitz started last night and will continue tonight. It is a profoundly moving look at the lives and thoughts of the men and women who inhabit this ship, most of whom are under 22 years old.

It challenged me in many ways and gave me a whole new perspective. This war is not the war of these individuals, most of whom have no other roads for breaking out of poverty and hopelessness.

Yesterday someone posted an announcement for the show and there were many responses that this was just war propaganda. I promise you, it is far from war propaganda.

I challenge you to watch it.

[evlbstrd]

1. I watched last night.

I served in the Navy. It was before women went to sea, though.
I second your challenge. It's a pretty honest look at life at sea.

[slackmaster]

2. As a member of a Navy family I second the challenge

My stepfather was a World War II veteran. He enlisted in the Navy to escape poverty in 1934 and served until 1956.

My uncle and my cousin served as medical officers in the Naval Reserve.

Another cousin enlisted in the Navy during the Vietnam War (no, he was not drafted).

My brother is presently the commander of a US Navy warship.

I watched most of the first segment. It was very interesting.

[KatyMan]

83. "My brother is presently the commander of a US Navy warship"

Wow, your family must certainly be proud of him! I'm not a soldier basher (or worshiper for that matter)--I believe they are people doing jobs, and the commander of a warship is certainly doing well in his field!
I'll have to check on the PBS website to see if I can watch it there. It's not on over here in old Blighty...

[Bobbie47]

3. very moving

when they went by Pearl Harbor.

[PetrusMonsFormicarum]

4. Fascinating so far

I had imagined that this was going to be some sort of pro-war balance piece (PBS's FRONTLINE *barely* holds its contempt in check when doing stories on Iraq/Afghanistan/bushCo.) but instead, the first episode was a thoughtful examination of the individual sailors. granted, there were several moments of pure ignorance among the crewmembers interviewed, but there was also a strong message: most of these people joined up with the best interests of a good America at heart. Many others interviewed were using military service as a way to break from the dead ends of poverty, drugs, crime, and racial discrimination.

Recommended viewing.

[reformedrethug]

5. I watched it

last night, will watch it again until its done THEN I am going to buy the DVD. It is a true, realistic, Non-propaganda look at the real Navy, the hard work, the emotional toll, and the pride many of these people feel.

Brings back memories from when I was in the Marine Corps as a jet mech, the smells, the sounds, ahhhhhhhhhh memories LOL

[Rageneau]

6. Brought back memories.

Except there weren't any women around when I was dodging jet intakes and propellers on the old USS Hornet, back when Jesus was a boy.

I cannot IMAGINE going to sea co-ed. How do they keep their minds on business?

[Lugnut]

79. Thank you for your service.

My cousin served as a fighter pilot aboard the USS Coral Sea, USS Roosevelt, USS Mindoro and the USS Oriskany back in the late 40s and early 50s. He lost his life to lymphoma on April 18th.

[The Stranger]

7. Are they going to do a 15-hour special on the people who get bombed, shocked and awed, maimed and

"collaterally damaged" by "losing their lives" due to the carriers? I mean an in-depth analysis of individuals who have their lives obliterated for no apparent reason?

Just curious.

[cbayer]

8. Point taken.

If it were done, I would challenge others to watch that as well. We get such a sanitized view of the war and all of the people that are impacted by the decisions of a few.

[The River]

9. Watch It?

No Thanks, I Lived It.

A necessary evil? Maybe

A life experience? Definitely.

A career for self-motivated free thinking liberal
individuals?

NOT.

[cbayer]

12. I feel the same way about medical shows.

But most of us have no idea how these things actually work and very little information on who these individuals are. These are not career military people, for the most part. The average age is 19 and most have signed up for the education, etc. I found their views really interesting.

[The River]

14. As The Postman Said

down thread, it's just propaganda.
It's written, directed and filmed to seem "interesting".
It may be an "education" but it's also as close to legalized slavery
as you can get.

[cbayer]

15. Right. It is a facist system set up to *promote & protect* democracy.

The irony does not escape me. I once had a patient's CO tell me, "If we had wanted him to have a wife, we would have issued him one", in response to my trying to have the patient's wife's wishes considered.

It is just too easy for us to dismiss the individuals at the lowest end of this system. I value this series because it highlights the individuals and all of the irony embedded into the entire system. I don't see it as propaganda at all.

[reformedrethug]

21. There is a small difference here,

those in the military are not there by force but by choice, those that live in a facist state for the most part cannot leave and thereby are there by force and not choice.

In the military you NEED discipline, you NEED instant obeyance of orders because if you start questioning orders given to you in a non stressfull situation what will happen when you are in a stressfull situation such as a firefight, or as happened before on ships a fire or other disaster?

You hesitate it may cost you your life or the lives of others around you.

As to the first part of your statement, I personally feel that the lower enlisted ranks (E1 thru E3) should not be married for several reasons. Number 1 is most of those at those ranks are 18-20 and not mature enough to be married. When you take into account the constant deployments that range from a couple of weeks to up to a year that puts a strain on ANY marriage and those that are that young often cannot handle that stress. Also, the pay for those lower ranks is simply not enough to support a family in today's economy.

[defendandprotect]

31. It's a fascist system, intended to offer human lives as fodder ---

those in the military are not there by force but by choice

I personally feel that the lower enlisted ranks (E1 thru E3) should not be married for several reasons. Number 1 is most of those at those ranks are 18-20 and not mature enough to be married.


How can 18-20 year olds who you protest are too immature to be married possibly make decisions about becoming human fodder in this system they can barely understand?

Unquestioned discipline only serves corruption in the military-
Those who are properly trained well understand that their actions effect the safety of other members.
Denying these soldiers the right to conscience in every event only breeds situations like torture and wars of aggression. How many would leave if they could?


Additionally . . .

When you take into account the constant deployments that range from a couple of weeks to up to a year that puts a strain on ANY marriage and those that are that young often cannot handle that stress. Also, the pay for those lower ranks is simply not enough to support a family in today's economy.

These soldiers are serving in an "illegal" war of aggression ---
under circumstances made impossibly stressful by this administration/Pentagon in "stop loss" and other brutal practices --- like sending soldiers with physical injuries and PTSD back to Iraq.

Of course, the pay has left many of them on food stamps at home ---
and we've even had circumstances where checks were not mailed out to their families creating
even more stress on those serving.

You can't make sense out of nonsense.

[reformedrethug]

43. Just a few responses to your post

How can 18-20 year olds who you protest are too immature to be married possibly make decisions about becoming human fodder in this system they can barely understand?


When you join the military you know that you are taking the chance that you may see combat or other possibly dangerous situations, thats the nature of the beast. Being married is a distraction, I dont care how old you are but as a person gets a little older they learn how to compartmentalize and leave home problems at home. In this series there is a young guy who's gf is pregnant and he is understandably upset that she is not emailing him, yet he works on the flight deck which is full of danger. Is his mind on his job or on his gf back home? If you have watched it you would see that at times his mind is NOT on his job which puts him in danger as well as others. Then there is a pilot whos wife has a miscarriage while he is out at sea, he is upset about it again understandable BUT when he straps on that flight suit his mind is focused on the job at hand and not at issues back home. That is the point I am trying to make, marriage can be a dangerous distraction to the younger mindset where older individuals have learned how to concentrate on the task at hand and not at problems at home.

Unquestioned discipline only serves corruption in the military-
Those who are properly trained well understand that their actions effect the safety of other members.
Denying these soldiers the right to conscience in every event only breeds situations like torture and wars of aggression. How many would leave if they could?


Here you are sadly mistaken, unquestioned discipline saves lives. If a fire breaks out on deck you have seconds to act or people die. Same as in combat, you have seconds to act or your squadmates die.

Who is denying any soldier a conscience? Do you know how the military operates? I highly doubt it, its obvious to me that in your mind the military is nothing more than trained killers. Did you know that when ships are in port that people on these ships volunteer for humanitarian missions every day? They go out and paint, build, repair, whatever it takes for orphanages, etc... You dont see that on the evening news now do you. There is plenty of compassion and conscience in the military and they go out of their way to show it.

These soldiers are serving in an "illegal" war of aggression ---
under circumstances made impossibly stressful by this administration/Pentagon in "stop loss" and other brutal practices --- like sending soldiers with physical injuries and PTSD back to Iraq.


That is your view on this war, others see it differently and serve in the military. The practices you mention ie: Stop Loss etc... is nothing new, has happened before and will happen again. If your in a mission critical position you finish the mission period. The good of the others in your unit is greater than your wants and that is something that many simply cannot grasp.

If you get wounded and its not life threatening you get treated and go back to your unit. Most of the guys that get hit WANT to go back to their unit, they feel that is their place. That again is something that many cannot grasp, disregard for their own lives for others. When you join a unit they become your family, you eat, sleep, party, fight, and sometimes die together and that creates a bond that is much tighter than the family bond. Also, again this is nothing new, in wars past you get hit you go to the aid station and get evaluated, then on to the hospital if its bad enough, get treated then back to your unit. What do you think they did during WWII and Korea? There was no 12 month tour, you were there for the duration unless you got hit bad enough to go home.

Of course, the pay has left many of them on food stamps at home ---
and we've even had circumstances where checks were not mailed out to their families creating
even more stress on those serving.


Exactly why the lower ranks should not be married. The pay just is not enough to support a family and that causes additional stresses and distractions that cause issues as well. Name ONE company that has failed to mail out checks on time, it happens in everyday life, pay gets screwed up, you deal with it and move on.

[defendandprotect]

57. No -- as you have pointed out 18-20 year olds don't understand the system . ..

When you join the military you know that you are taking the chance that you may see combat or other possibly dangerous situations

Marriage isn't going to cost you your life -- nor is it something you can't get out of.

The military will cost you your life -- and recruitment lies can cost you wasted years and/or death.

And what of the women who are serving who are worried about her children back home.
In some cases, both mothers and fathers have been called up!
MANY of the people serving are much more than 18-20 year olds.
These are many people being recycled over and again and many who were out and called back in.
I'm sure you know all that?


Here you are sadly mistaken, unquestioned discipline saves lives. If a fire breaks out on deck you have seconds to act or people die. Same as in combat, you have seconds to act or your squadmates die.

What?
Those situations have nothing to do with conscience.

And, how do the soldiers feel about 2 million innocent Iraqis dead --
and our bombing them for 20 years to teach them about "democracy" --- ???

These soldiers are serving in an "illegal" war of aggression ---
under circumstances made impossibly stressful by this administration/Pentagon in "stop loss" and other brutal practices --- like sending soldiers with physical injuries and PTSD back to Iraq.

No... it's not "my view" . . . it is the fact of what's going on with injured soldiers being returned to new tours in Iraq. "Stop loss" at these levels have led to a "broken army" according to Rep. John Murtha, who I'm quite sure has a better idea of what is going on in the military than you do.

Nor are not talking about simple wounds that heal; we are talking about PTSD, brain injuries,
serious injuries to the body which are barely treated and efforts made to put these soldiers back on the death path in Iraq.


Of course, the pay has left many of them on food stamps at home ---
and we've even had circumstances where checks were not mailed out to their families creating
even more stress on those serving.

Evidently, it's impossible for you to see the military as a death machine --
nor the vileness of this administration and its brutality against our armed forces.
Yes, every scam has been pulled on the troops serving, for the benefit of the warmongers.
Whether it's health care or education, or taking care of the family, this administration has
betrayed our armed forces.

Rush your kids and grandkids into the military --- ours will stay out of it.

[reformedrethug]

60. Well first off

Evidently its impossible for you to see the military as anything BUT a death machine so lets be honest with each other and just end this little discussion. Your not going to change my mind, especially using somebody like murtha as a source.

To end, the military did not cost me MY life or any others that I served with or millions of other veterans. Also my recruiter did not lie because I did my research before I even went to see him, I knew what I wanted to do and knew what I qualified for. A recruiter can only lie if the person lets them lie.

[defendandprotect]

69. The entire world understands what "fodder for war" and that means males/soldiers ---

people of every nation understand that immediately.

Everyone understands that unless you're an especially guillible and suceptible victim of rightwing propaganda...

And Rep. John Murtha -- a military hawk --- is a poor reference for you . . . !!!

And, right -- only stupid people get killed, maimed or cheated on their benefits ---
Unfortunately, they're all not YOU . . . because you do everything right -- !!!

:rofl:

Again --- send your kids -- there may be a 100 year war ahead of you --
That might take you all the way to your great grandkids.

[reformedrethug]

72. Where did I say stupid

people get killed maimed or cheated??
I love how you cherry pick specific words and twist them into something that fits your perception.

I said that if you do not do your research and prepare you are letting the recruiter lie IF they want too. You go in prepared and guess what, that wont happen.

Murtha is a headline seeking fool that is being proven wrong on his charges of Haditha.

In your mind ANYBODY that joins the military is fodder and that is where you are wrong but as I said there is nothing I can say to you because your narrow mind is made up and nothing will change it.

Btw, if my kids ( I have 3 btw) wish to join the military I will encourage and support their decision. If they choose not too I again will encourage and support them as they are their own person and they have their own mind to make up. I will not force it on my kids but it sounds like you want people to force their kids into the military if they do not believe as you do. Pretty closed minded if you ask me.

[defendandprotect]

84. You didn't say "stupid" . . . you inferred that they weren't paying enough attention . . .

What are you doing here, anyway?

Murtha is too liberal for you?

The world understands that soldiers are "fodder" for warprofiteers ---

wake up!!

Again --- send your kids, not mine.

[izquierdista]

10. 15 hours?!

Luke Skywalker only needed 2 to put the Death Star out of action.

[LanternWaste]

27. the Republic-- the good guys, yes?

But the military industrial complex Luke worked for (the Republic-- the good guys, yes? The good guys have armies, yes?) had lasers and x-wings to kill the innocents with. :sarcasm:

[Postman]

11. I was on a carrier.

This is just more glorification of war and humanization of the cogs in the machines that kill "carrying out our country's business", as the Command Master Chief mentioned in episode 1.

"Carrying out our country's business"......does anyone have an answer for what that may be?

I do.

It's called imperialist capitalism at the point of a gun or at the point of a pen.

Pick your poison.

[cbayer]

13. I think that it is the humanization of the cogs that is compelling.

They exist in an entirely undemocratic system in order to preserve democracy - stunning irony. The fact is that we offer them few other options to get out of poverty or their neighborhoods or to get an education.

I know that it could be interpreted as a Navy recruitment film on it's face, but after watching it, I think it is just the opposite.

[fight4my3sons]

16. my husband and I thought the same thing

my husband turned to me and said 'I hope none of our boys ever wants to do this.' It didn't seem very glamorous when we were watching it.
My husband went to military school (NYMA) and dreamed of flying one of those jets, but has bad eye sight. He decided not to go to West Point when his girlfriend's parents urged him to go to the state university instead and live his own life. It's a very long story I just made very short. We live right near a naval air base and also a place that manufactures fighter ships. I think that is the correct term, I don't know much about the military. We have a lot of friends who work there since the place employs a lot of the area we live in. This show was advertised at our local library with bookmarks and fliers even in the children's room.

[cbayer]

17. I am sorry that the show is being dismissed as propoganda.

I vowed after Viet Nam never to blame the soldiers. It is not their war. It is sometimes their way out.

I don't know much about the military either. Coming from a pacifist family, I had never been close to anyone who was faced with the decision of joining up. My son considered it, after some tussles with the law, and I saw it both as a way for him to get some much needed self-discipline and as way too risky a road to take.

[Postman]

19. Most kids join the military for economic reasons, not out of patriotic fervor.

I went into the military because the economy sucked, I had no prospects for higher education and I needed a skill to use later on in life in order to support a family.

Although I was a student of history and had a love and appreciation of my country (a skewed, half-truth, romanticized view that a young person has) I didn't join the military out of love of country, patriotism or an internal drive to "serve".....

[tuckessee]

26. I live in a poor area that is near the top in the nation in supplying recruits.

Most I know who joined did so because of the excitement and adventure - not ecomonics.

As one Marine told me, "It's the only place you can smoke people and get rewarded for it."

[izquierdista]

28. The promise of socialism

In the U.S. the only way to enjoy the benefits of a socialist country is to join the military -- free health care, education and training benefits, subsidized housing, transportation from the motor pool, subsidized food rations, etc.

If the U.S. military treated their rank and file like capitalist corporations treat their average worker, they would all file out and the ranks would be depleted.

[defendandprotect]

32. Fro m what I hear about serving these days the Halliburton army is abused . . ..

food is garbage, laundry bag costs $100 bucks to get back clothing in the same condition you sent it on in --- maybe worse?

Health care at Walter Reed?

They're also scamming them on benefits/insurance --- !!!

Corporations are now running our military ---

If I recall correctly, we're also hearing that they are scamming them on education as well ---

[cbayer]

34. That's the irony.

The organization is run in a way that is efficient, effective and takes care of itself. And it does this to protect a system that is entirely different. I love to have my beliefs challenged.

[Obamanaut]

67. As Postman said in #19, I too joined for economic reasons. We

were poor, and I had no illusions re college, so in high school I took classes that interested me - Latin, German, chorus - but no college prep studies. In 1960 I went to basic training four days after graduating, and retired in 1988.

I met a whole passel of people like me, not war mongers, just people supporting their families.

I did go to college though. And now being retired, I ride a bicycle, motorcycle, work in the yard when I want to.

And I'm still not a war monger.

edited to add that I served on several carriers - America, Kennedy, Eisenhower, Midway, Independence

[awoke_in_2003]

38. Yes, ships is correct

boat is a small water vessel, unless you are talking subs, and they are always called boats.

[Pastiche423]

18. No thank you

I seen enough waste of my country's resources in the past seven+ years to last me a lifetime.

[reformedrethug]

20. So a strong

national defense is a waste to you??

I dont know about you but I would much rather have a strong defense and not need it then have a weak one and need a strong one.

No I do not agree with our being in Iraq, but somehow I feel that you have felt this way for much longer than just the last 7 years or so.

[Breeze54]

37. Wasted resources

I believe what Pastiche means by wasted resources

is the people that have been killed in this occupation of lies!

Such a waste.... 4,056+ KIA to date and a million + Iraqi's.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. It sure is a waste to have a larger military than the whole rest of the world combined

including Russia and China, as well as more military bases in more places than any country.

It is bleeding our economy dry. That's what oversized militaries do.

The same people who enter the military out of economic desperation could just as easily be put to work repairing our infrastructure, planting trees, building affordable housing, building mass transit and intercity rail, building and updating parks and other recreational facilities (think WPA) and otherwise bringing us up to the standards of other Western countries.

[reformedrethug]

44. Sorry but I dont agree

there are PLENTY of people still here that can do exactly what you wish done. Our government wastes soooooo much money thru pork spending that if we could trim that there would be more than enough to do exactly what you wish.

Do you know how much those military bases contribute to the local economies where they reside? Also, at the time they were created (Japan and Europe) they were created to be a blocking force for the former Soviet Union and the people wanted us there to help protect them from the Soviets.

Not crazy about the rail tho, I just do not like being dependant on anybody for my transportation needs, if I need to get home I dont want to have to wait for a train, I need to get home, but thats off topic sorry.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. It seems now that the Soviets are more threatened by us than we by them

Sorry, reformed, but in the larger world, we don't look like "defenders of freedom" anymore. We look like the new Roman Empire.

There's a point where adequate self-defense veers off into paranoid overkill and the temptation to rationalize one's own aggression as "self defense," to think that self-defense means "I have to get what I want at all costs."

Countries with imperial ambitions don't present these ambitions to their people as "Let's go out conquering for the hell of it." They make up excuses, almost always something like, "Those people threaten us," or "We desperately need their resources."

Sound familiar?

[Thothmes]

52. What is the percentage of current enlistees

that joined one of the Uniform services out of "economic deperation"?

[cbayer]

22. I am kicking this with a double dare.

Last night's episode took on issues of race, sex, and class in a brutally honest way. I know that there are those who object and will call this propaganda, but I think it is one of the best documentaries I have ever seen.

It also brings up the issue of deterrence as a military objective.

[reformedrethug]

29. Last nights episodes

were real eye openers to some people. Many did not know that the military does NOT allow racisim in its ranks, and the fact that that one sailor got kicked out FOR being racist should open some eyes!!

When I was in the Corps there was no white or black Marines, just green Marines PERIOD!!!

[cbayer]

33. I think the way they are looking at all the ramifications of prejudice is fascinating.

The sexism and class distinctions are also very enlightening. I agree that intolerance of anything that will harm the whole is a strong theme and was news to me. I am amazed by this and surprised that it is being dismissed by so many. Maybe it's just me.

[Thothmes]

51. That was the Corps party line

Knew a lot of senior NCOs that routinley refered to Dark Green Marines.

[BlooInBloo]

23. Oooh! Do you double-dog-dare me???

:rofl:

I saw some 2 hour discovery channel thing-a-ma-bob about carrier life - not interested enough in details to commit much more time than that.


I guess you win your challenge - I'm such a chicken!

:rofl:

[cbayer]

24. I double-chicken-dare you!

You dog. :rofl:


I also saw that discovery channel thing. That show was Vienna Sausages. This one is Filet Mignon.

[bobbolink]

25. K&R Thanks for the heartfelt recommendation!

:thumbsup:

[Patsy Stone]

30. Watched it last night

And will watch the repeat at 11.

:thumbsup:

[Subdivisions]

35. I'm already hooked. It's quality stuff. n/t

[Breeze54]

36. Tried it... thought it was recruiting propaganda

It gave me the creeps and I'm glad my son isn't watching it.

My ex was stationed on a Coast Guard cutter during the Vietnam War
and I've seen the insides of the ship and know about what their lives
were like and the people that serve on those ships.

USCGC Munro (WHEC-724) moored at Kodiak, Alaska;

photo by BMC Timothy E. Lee; April, 2002.

The Munro was commissioned in 1971. Like all of her sister cutters, she has stood watch on
ocean station, performed search and rescue, trained with Navy task groups, and conducted
law enforcement operations.

----

Not sure if that's the ship's name but it sounds familiar and he used to go
out to sea for months at a time, up to Greenland and to Cuba and Jamaica.

[MilesColtrane]

41. I've always wondered...

...if the Coast Guard had nuclear weapons.

I heard that many of their ships do indeed have nukes in their armament.

Can you confirm or deny?

[Thothmes]

50. I believe that some classes of large Coast Guard ships

had the capability to carry nuclear weapons during the Cold War. Whether they retain that capability or not is speculative.

[MilesColtrane]

56. Interesting.

I always thought it odd that the Coast Guard would wield tactical nukes.

Hard to believe that they seriously prepared to glass Alaska, or some other U.S. coastal area in the event of a Soviet invasion.

[Thothmes]

65. Has nothing to do with turning Alaska into glass

During war time the Coast Guard is under the operational control of the United States Navy. In that capacity one of their duties is convoy escort and anti submarine warfare. To support the ASW mission large ocean going cutters used to be equipped with an 8 tube ASROC launcher. Besides a rocket launched MK 46 torpedo, ASROC was capable of firing a rocket launched nuclear depth charge. As I said, this was durin Cold War. Don't know if any of the Ocean going cutters still carry ASROC launchers any more.

[TheMightyFavog]

39. Watched it tonight and found something interesting...

Out of all the sorties those F-18 pilots flew in Iraq, they did not drop even one single bomb.

[cbayer]

71. And some of the pilots were so disappointed.

Deterrence is a powerful force. I wouldn't be so opposed to a military force if it never killed a single individual.

However, if you make the threat, you have to be ready to back it up. Very confusing for me.

[Jackeen]

78. I think it was more of a 'professional' disappointment...

...than a moral one.

For many years, they have devoted their lives to the ability to master one function: To put ordnance on target. Then, after all this time, they are sent to a situation in which they can meet the challenge of their calling. And then they don't put it into practise what should be the culmination of their military career. They seemed to explain that they understood that not dropping bombs was overall a good thing, but you can't blame them for being a little disappointed that they didn't get to do what they had focused their lives towards as regards the 'technical art' of bomb-dropping.

An oft-made quote is that Ordies love putting bombs on airplanes. They'll do it all day. But they absolutely hate taking them off again when the 'plane lands, as it means all their work seemed to be for nothing. Same idea here.

[Bigmack]

40. Saw a few minutes...

so I can't say much, but the part I watched included some sort of sexual contact between an E-6 "lifer" who destroyed his career by having sex with a woman junior to him. Didn't get the whole story, but it showed the fuck-you inflexibility of the military.

I turned it off after seeing the Shore Patrol assholes or the Masters at Arms harassing the people going ashore for liberty. In some cases, the military is an anachronism and incompatible with democracy.

[Thothmes]

49. Has anyone ever claimed that the Military was

a democratic institution. Or should be?

[Bigmack]

58. Gee... my old Gunny told me....

the Corps was a totally democratic institution, and I could just quit if I was unhappy.

Signing on to a job you can't leave - ever, if they stop-loss you, and being worked in a hostile environment and inhumane conditions for low pay and in a society so class-bound that it resembles the Middle Ages is, I think, an anachronism and contrary to principles this country was founded on. And the Romans took better care of their veterans.

As we slide not-so-gently toward totalitarianism, maybe we need to start thinking about the composition and function and mission of the military as one of the components of saving what little Republic is left.

[Thothmes]

68. Quite the contrary

George Washington brought in European Officers to take his "democratic army of militia" and turn it into a regular army capable of standing up to professional army of Lord Howe and Lord Cornwallis. Had that not happened, chances are we would still be swearing allegance to the British Crown.
As far as the Continental Navy was concerned, aside from being better paid, and relying slightly less on the cat to enforce discipline, it was just as l disciplined and undemocratic as the Royal Navy.

[mandingo]

70. I was in the Navy and watched it.

It brought back years of repressed memories. LOL

Like the double standards between officers and enlisted.

The long hours of mindless work. (Made even worse by being a nuke MM2).

The crappy food that every civilian "hears" is the best in the military but is less than dog food grade in my experience! (Strike that, I wouldn't feed my dogs the food I ate!).

But I learned a lot in my 6 years and it taught me team work and integrity and gave me the ability to unlearn all my racist ways and respect people for their abilities no matter what color skin they have.

I'd do it again in a heart beat!

[Subdivisions]

73. delete. wrong place, dammit! n/t

[bean fidhleir]

45. It's propaganda.

It's designed to make you accept that when you oppose the meatgrinder, you stop those kids "breaking out of poverty and hopelessness."

[mvccd1000]

46. Carriers - bah!

They should track life on a gator freighter. Probably have a hard time getting a film crew who wanted to put up with it; the whole ship smelling of diesel, rocking and rolling due to the shallow draft, crowded with 1,000 Marines in addition to the crew, out to sea more than in port.... that's the REAL Navy! :)

(Gator Freighters are amphibious ships that transport Marines and are designed to operate close in to shore to drop them off.)

[Thothmes]

48. The real Navy is a 2250 ton tin can

in a sea state four storm

[mvccd1000]

53. Nah.... even your 2250 ton tin can still has a little bit of draft to help stabilize it.

My 522 ft LST could draw as little as four feet at the bow, and it had a nearly flat bottom. We got tossed around more than the SS Minnow! They sure put those handrails in all the passageways for a reason... :)

[Thothmes]

66. Grant you large slow targets are a tough ride

[coriolis]

47. I watched a little but turned it off...it was incredibly boring.

:shrug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. That's what I expected

Reality shows almost always bore me. The previews made it look like a ten-hour Frederick Wiseman movie.

Besides, I have better things to do. The Minneapolis-St. Paul International Film Festival is on, and my choir is making a CD.

[Lost4words]

59. NO THANK YOU!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. Watched five minutes. Boring as hell.

Same war porn propaganda that runs on cable 24 hours a day.

:shrug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

63. Right, there's even a whole Military Channel on cable

:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. I've actually scene an interesting show on that channel.

The father/son team of military historians who spend each episode on in depth coverage of a particular famous historical battle. Battle of Hastings, maybe, or the Battle of Khe Sanh.

Other than that, it's all crap.

[Jackeen]

75. The Snows aren't Historians, really.

I spent many nights watching Peter Snow (the older guy) on Newsnight on BBC. It's kindof an equivalent to 60 Minutes, focusing heavily on politics. Peter was famous for his 'gadgets' such as his "Swingometer" during the elections, or quite literally a big sand pit with model tanks in it during Granby (Desert Storm, to Americans). Thus, his fold-up table/computer generate battlefield in the show is really just continuing his trademark.

[rocktivity]

62. Episodes 1 - 4 are available online

Here: http://www.pbs.org/weta/carrier/full_episodes.htm

You're welcome.

:headbang"
rocknation

[Subdivisions]

74. I came back to post again in this thread as I am now conflicted...

For the series so far I've been struck by the compelling personal stories of the young kids who come from places and situations that left them little choice but to join the military. The young racist who so could not shake his bigotry that he was basically fired from the Navy with an "other than honorable" discharge which will haunt him the rest of his life, or the young woman alchoholic who was disciplined for multiple incidents of drinking. Also, the music is excellent and the whole scope of the ship and the world as they sail the seas inspires awe and a sense of adventure.

I missed the first half tonight but the second half addresses the faith, or lack thereof, of those on board. It struck me as bordering on the ludicrous, the idea that these humans who believe in God at the controls of a massive and formidable killing machine. It was...The Crusades. It gave me the willies. Also, it's as if most of these kids lack the ability to understand that, despite all their quaint youthfulness and vigor and longing, they are aboard a machine which is manipulative, intimidating, deadly.

So, now I'm beginning see another side of this, one that is vile and disgusting. I really am having a hard time describing what I'm feeling but it boils down to a sense of profound shame and despair at what lengths my own country will go to to ensure hegemony while imposing our will at the end of a barrel.

I don't even want to deal with the thought of all the innocent life my country has taken in my name and so that I could, ostensibly, be free. I don't want anyone else to die so that I can "be free".

Bring home all our kids and put them to work modernizing our infrastructure and building a renewable energy generation and grid. Let us protect our nation from within and stop projecting our will on the rest of the world - before the rest of the world finally has enough.

[Jackeen]

77. Re: conflicted.

I don't think the lass was an alcoholic. She just didn't follow the rules, which, in the US military, clearly state 'No alcohol on operation.' Obviously some people test the system, she was one of them. I think the booze rule is excessively strict, as, evidently, did she, but I don't come up with them.

I similarly don't think the 'Crusades' comment is appropriate. Those who believe strongly in a God are not necessarily fighting for the furtherance of their religion, but simply view their faith as.. well.. faith, I guess: A source of strength for themselves. You will note that all sorts of religions are on board, from Wiccan through Muslim. Just which God(s) are they fighting for in their 'crusade'? Though not mentioned on the show, the Chaplain's Corps is a very important and underrated division in the military, even amongst aetheists, due to the various functions they perform. Indeed, the very first officer Washington appointed in the Army was a Chaplain (The second was a lawyer). However, I don't think George was fighting to advance his religion, he just happened to think that religion was an important part of life. The two are very different. I also doubt that anyone aboard that ship is under any mis-illusions as to the nature and purpose of an aircraft carrier.

[jasmine621]

80. Maybe Rev Wright increased your sensitivites and sensibilities.

This is a fine example of what the man was talking about. The truth does hurt.

[WCGreen]

76. I thought it was pretty cool...

A real reality show that was compelling and not manufactured.

[Rex]

81. Just a comment: when I was in the Army

it was an excellent place for minorities to 'go far' and make some decent money AND go to college in hopes of a great job out in the civilian world. Changed the way I see America and Americans.

Course that was under Clinton.

[western mass]

82. Recruiting video w/ rock'n'roll soundtrack.

What's the difference between a serious sociological documentary and a recruiting video? The cool rock and roll soundtrack blaring constantly in the background. Gung ho, not too challenging, usual PBS crap.