"Fit, but Fat" Demonstrated to be Nonsense

[El Pinko]

This dovetails with the other thread on whether or not "fat acceptance" is a progressive issue.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3215842

(I personally think body acceptance is progressive, but enabling morbid obesity is not)
It was posited in the thread that a person can be seriously overweight, but healthy so long as they are active.
I have always doubted this, and the data is now confirming it.


http://health.yahoo.com/news/ap/fitness_heart.html


Exercise-heart study casts doubt on 'fit but fat' theory

By LINDSEY TANNER, AP Medical Writer - Mon Apr 28, 6:13 PM PDT

CHICAGO - New research challenges the notion that you can be fat and fit, finding that being active can lower but not eliminate heart risks faced by heavy women. "It doesn't take away the risk entirely. Weight still matters," said Dr. Martha Gulati, a heart specialist at Northwestern Memorial Hospital.

...

The new study involving nearly 39,000 women helps sort out the combined effects of physical activity and body mass on women's chances of developing heart disease, said Gulati, who wasn't involved in the research. The study by Harvard-affiliated researchers appears in Monday's Archives of Internal Medicine.

...

Women were considered active if they followed government-recommended guidelines and got at least 30 minutes of moderate activity most days of the week, including brisk walking or jogging. Women who got less exercise than that were considered inactive. Weight was evaluated by body mass index: A BMI between 25 and 29 is considered overweight, while obese is 30 and higher.

Compared with normal-weight active women, the risk for developing heart disease was 54 percent higher in overweight active women and 87 percent higher in obese active women. By contrast, it was 88 percent higher in overweight inactive women; and 2 1/2 times greater in obese inactive women.

[napoleon_in_rags]

1. Where's the other thread?

I was chatting about this earlier today with somebody, but didn't see a thread on it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3215581&mesg_id=3222087

[El Pinko]

2. Voilá!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3215842

[napoleon_in_rags]

4. Thank you! nt

[alarimer]

3. The BMI is crock of shit though.

If they are using that to judge how overweight people are, MOST of us would be overweight.

[LeftyMom]

5. I don't know if you've looked around lately- most people ARE overweight. nt

[BuelahWitch]

36. A good friend of mine judged to be "obese" b/c of BMI was not

She might have had a heavier body mass, but it was all muscle. The woman was athletic and didn't eat alot of junk. She came back to work from her doctor's one afternoon quite upset that he had told her she was "obese." I think the shithead needed a good whack to the head and a new pair of glasses. No way was she "obese"

[LeftyMom]

61. Oh, I know it's a poor tool because it doesn't account for body types.

I'm just making the point that it's not a poor tool just because it says many americans are overweight, because many americans are overweight. It's a poor tool because it's crude, and a less accurate measure of health than a simple visual inspection.

The post I was responding to was right, but the reasoning behind it was flawed.

[AZ Criminal JD]

131. Your good friend is fat

Just because you don't want to see it doesn't make it true. If the doctor is saying she is obese she is fat. All "muscle" is total denial.

[The Doctor.]

41. It's true though, the 'height/weight' guage is about the worst measure possible.

One needs an accurate body fat percentage test, preferably by immersion.

It is also possible to be very healthy and mildly overweight, although the statistical risk factor is incrementally higher.

[El Pinko]

7. Most Americans are overweight.

Statistically, the number is over 60%. Our culture has become increasingly accepting of a certain amount of overweight as a person gets older.

An example would be Laura Bush, who is probably 20 lbs overweight, but is seen as "average" because so many women her age are SERIOUSLY ovrweight.

BMI is a reasonable indicator for about 75% of the population who don't have an extreme build one way or the other, or a huge amount of muscle mass.


That being said, I don't think the amount of extra weight Laura bush carries around is a real health risk. She looks fine and seems comfortable with it, so it's no biggie, but it's probably not the OPTIMUM weight for her.

But an extra 50, 70, 100 lbs? Now you are talking about much more serious health risks, high cholesetol and triglycerides, side effects like GERD and ankle pain.

I've been 100 lbs overweight and it was not a good place to be.

[mvccd1000]

30. So true!

I work overseas, and I am filled with shock and awe every time I come home to the states and see how fat the population is.

The sheer excesses that people in the states must partake in boggles the mind.

So much for everyone "doing their part" for the food shortages..... :)

[Clark2008]

102. It's not all the "excesses" in some cases.

I'd think it's because we Americans eat so much pre-packaged food with preservatives and high fructose corn syrup.

They should ban that syrup instead of smokes, if you ask me. More people run a heart risk from consuming that - but we'll never see that studied - or published if it is studied.

[NashVegas]

147. You'd Have To Stand Next To Laura Bush to Gauge Her Weight

The camera lies, remember.

I'm overweight and working on getting it back down, but if people don't look at what's going on with the drive to make fat people the next cigarette smokers ...?

Some of this stuff borders on social terrorism, IMO.

[El Pinko]

148. We might have some common ground on that issue...

I hear people talking about how fat people or smokers should be charged more for health insurance, if not dropped altogether.

Punishing people that way for lifestyle choices goes way too far over the line of coercing everyone to be, live, do, act the same.

Insurance companies should be offereing free smoking cessation programs to thos who want them, free nutrition and exercise guidance, not redlining people for not being perfect.

That is one thing. Demonization of fat people needs to stop. Discrimination against fat people needs to stop.

But we also need to do what we can to bring obesity rates down and help people live longer, healthier lives, too. I don't think that those two goals are incompatible.

[HughBeaumont]

9. The BMI index IS a buncha shit, even with their factor of waist size.

For instance, I'm 5'9". I weigh 180, which means a 26.6 BMI. According to said chart, I'm overweight for my height.

I have a 33 inch waist, a 46 inch chest and 18" arms. I'm not exactly at body-fatless-triathelete yet, but sorry, I'm hardly overweight or fat by a long shot.

So where does someone like Tom Brady of the Patriots fall? 27.4, also deemed overweight for even his height.



Call me crazy, but I'm kiiiiiinda not seeing "overweight" in that photo.

[Marr]

14. Tell me about it. According to the BMI, I am *obese*.

Not just overweight, but obese. I do triathlons and my bodyfat is at 14%. I'm not cut or anything, but c'mon-- that's not obese.

I have no idea where they pulled those numbers from, but they're not for adult humans.

[AZ Criminal JD]

133. You are in denial. Good luck.

[Marr]

137. What do you mean?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

18. Of course no measure is perfect

but to say its crap because a professional athlete does not fit well into it.. is just being purposefully oblivious..

If you work out as much as Brady you probably dont even need to think about the BMI.. but for at least 75% of the population its a good measure...

[El Pinko]

22. You may not be unfit, but I have read several studies...

...showing that bodybuilders, IE people high in BMI but with low body fat also have higher rates of heart disease and shorter life expectancy than thinner people.

I'm a little surprised about Brady, as he doesn't look all that bulky... :shrug:

[HughBeaumont]

33. That's due to their tons of protein and cholesterol intakes. Oh, and steroids.

For many people, high protein diets help in slimming, but at the same time can do massive damage to the renal and cardiovascular systems. I used to want to look like that, but found that was impossible due to not being the right body type, time investment and my family having a history with kidney issues (luckily, it skipped me, but still . . .).

I've also read in more than a few yoga magazines that the "six pack" can cause spine and flexibility problems later on in life.

With Brady, I'm guessing most of the weight comes from his legs, as he has a leaner upper physique.

[semillama]

60. Out of curiousity, what is the argument that visible abdominals cause spinal problems?

That's an interesting statement. "Six-pack abs" are simply what you have when you have a combination of a low bodyfat percentage and decent muscle tone. I don't see an obvious connection between that and spinal/flexion problems. You'd think Jack Lalanne would be in seriously bad shape if that were the case...

[eridani]

48. Yes. When you control for fat vs muscle mass, high blood pressure correlates with lean body weight

As if anyone can do a goddam thing about their tendency to be muscular either.

[sendero]

35. Exactly..

..... BMI is a joke. It's worse than nothing. Please folks, you know if you need to lose weight, don't pay any attention to that bogus number.

While I don't believe you can be "fit and fat", I do believe that some body types (endomorhpic) can be large without being fat.

I'm a native ectomorph who lifted weights to become a mesomorph :)

[AZ Criminal JD]

132. You are overweight. Sorry if no one has the guts to tell you.

[Marr]

138. You're seriously saying a 5'9", 180lb. male is obese?

You must be a serious pencil neck.

[HughBeaumont]

143. Not overweight. Not even close.

It's about body composition, not weight. Go back under the bridge, bama troll.

[Captain Hilts]

10. Michael Jordan qualifies as obese. nt

[El Pinko]

23. Shaquille O'Neal and Hulk Hogan would too.

But then again, O'Neal *IS* fat and probably will have heart disease in his future. God only knows what years of steroids have done to Hogan's body...

(sorry, kinda off-topic...)

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

11. My issue with it is that it doesn't take into account muscle mass

I'm 5'9" and 120lbs, and am very skinny, but I don't do much in the way of exercise and don't have much muscle. However a friend of mine who is a wrestler is 5'9", 145lbs, and is about as skinny as I am.

[David__77]

13. The BMI says I'm borderline overweight, and I have 6% body fat.

I'm muscular and in very good physical shape, but the BMI doesn't seem to say so. Maybe we all should be ultra-skinny, I don't know. But I think this is probably a too-simplistic measure of healthy body types.

[El Pinko]

24. THere are a lot of different measures. Think of BMI as a "first alert".

If you find you have an unhealthy BMI, then get a body-fat measurement taken. If it's below 15% for men, 24% for women, you're probably fine.

[HughBeaumont]

34. High end "Normal" for me is 162.

:wtf: I'd look like a starved cat if I weighed that little.

[New Dawn]

16. 66% of the US adult population is overweight

It will likely hit 75% by 2015: http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20070713/us-obesity-set-to-boom

[Snarkturian Clone]

32. IIRC, BMI was created in the 1840's using a bunch of ectomorphic men

that were 140 lbs and 5'4" on average. It's used today because SO MANY people fall under overweight and obese according to it. Insurance companies like this and health snobs on DU like this because they can tell us how righteous they are for being little pencil-necks.

There was a Penn & Teller Bullshit where they held an experiment to test if BMI meant a damn thing... in the experiment, the overweight person proved to be the most healthy, IIRC.

[El Pinko]

39. Well, Penn Jillette is obese, so he has an agenda...

...and they seem to love to prove all sorts of right-wing/libertarian points, so I don't know how much stock I put in them.

I know BMI is an imperfect measure, but it is designed to account for all heights and weights, not just 5'4" ectomorphs. And there is a VERY WIDE range of weights considered "healthy".

And I don't think being slim is about being rigtheous, or even attractive. For long-term health and longevity, it is healthier. If that doesn't matter to you, then eat up.

I find a lot of heavy people to be very attractive. I think Queen Latifah is sexy as hell - so is Jack Black and Greg Grunberg on "Heroes". They could all stand to lose a few pounds for the sake of their health, but to me they LOOK good as they are.

I never felt like I LOOKED that bad even when I was heavy. But I felt like crap, and it seems everyone else thought I looked bad.

Now people tell me I look too skinny. But I feel great and my BMI is smack in the middle of healthy at 22. Body fat is at 14%, shooting for 10%.

Gawd, what a rambling post this is.

Anyway, my perception of this changed a lot in the years I lived in Japan. Everyone there was so slender that I got used to it. When I came back here, the sight of so many people being so horrible overweight was a real shock.

What used to look "a little stocky" or " a little above average" suddenly looked fat to me, and what used to look fat looked horribly obese. And during those years, 1995-2000, Americans did get fatter.

But I started to think about how much higher life expectancy is in Japan, and all the vigorous old people I saw walking briskly around, and how I NEVER saw obese people riding around stores on those little motorized carts there.

I started thinking about the fact that the average Japanese man's daily calorie intake is less than 2000 per day, while the average American man's is over 3000. And I realized that this is simply a healthier way to live.

It took me some more years to apply it to my own life and get the proecessed crap convenience foods out of my diet, but I'm sure glad I did.

[Snarkturian Clone]

42. Well, the problem is that I'm a mesomorph of Italian descent

so I have the sicilian stocky shape, but I don't have the sicilian lack of height. My tall paternal grandfather's dna got thrown in the mix and now I have the sicilian shape but above average height. This makes me overweight on the BMI scale on my thinnest day ever, when I was 190lbs after a 13 week fast, and I was definitely less healthy. My weight now fluctuates at 230 to 240, which makes me obese. The lowest I've been from a normal weight-loss diet was 223, still obese according to BMI.

Let's not forget that genetics can effect your weight and health, it's not only nutrition.

[El Pinko]

52. A 13 week fast?

Wow. Was that a religious thing? I can imagine you would not be healthy after starving.

it's true that genetics plays a big role, and not everyone was meant to be thin - and BMI is definitely imperfect.

I'm 6'2" and can carry over 200 lbs without "looking" so fat - I have a long face, too - but I don't think I'm healthy at that weight and I certainly was not healthy at 275.

I'm almost 39. When I was fat, I felt like I was pushing 50. Now I feel like I'm in my 20s again.

I just can't get away with what some guys can and stay slim - so I am a victim of genetics, too. If I ate the standard US diet of 2500-3000 cal per day, I am certain that my weight would stay over 200. It's only by permanently keeping that intake between about 1800 and 2000 that I can maintain at this weight, which is a little tough since my appetite wants the 3000 - lol.

Everything I've read says that starving, fasting, and extremely low-calorie diets put your body into a starvation mode, where metabolism slows down and the body socks away as many calories as it can as fat.

I think it's all about finding the right intake of healthy foods that works for your individual body, and just aiming to be healthier. I think Oprah is a good example of someone who did the whole fad diet thing, got super-skinny, then fat again, and finally has learned how to eat healthy, exercise and keep in a good shape for her build and genetics. I don't know if she is in "healthy" BMI, but she looks terrific.

[Snarkturian Clone]

63. You'd be surprised how easy it can be to fast.

By fast I mean 400 calories a day plus vitamins.

The first 2 weeks were hard but the remaining 11 were easy as pie. After you lose your craving for food you suddenly turn a corner and become un-hungry. At this point food disgusts you and you can't stand the sight or smell of it. Then you start feeling immortal, like everyone else has to eat but you. I stopped at 13 weeks because my skin started to become very pale and I wasn't losing any more weight... and I wanted to drink beer again.

All in all it was a stupid thing to do... I don't know if it's related but I started getting acid reflux about the same time. My weight stayed down for about 18 months afterward, until I met my wife, who is a good-ass cook.

edited to add: I was also pretty young when I did it... I don't think I could handle it now.

[pink-o]

84. Please don't fast. Ever. And tell your children not to fast either!

I was sooo proud of myself that I could live on smoothies and water for weeks at a time. In my 20s I thought a 6'1" woman should be model-thin and not a size 10, so I used to fast all the time to drop the weight. Unfortunately, human bodies evolved during the hunter-gatherer years to store fat for the lean, famine times--IOW, the more you fast, the more efficient you become at keeping the fat on. And when you start eating again, you will binge like crazy and gain far more than you ever lost.

I know this. It happened to me. I weighed about 150 in high school, and from fasting and binging, I climbed up to 198 by the time I was 36. It took years to reset my metabolism, and if I regret anything I've ever done, that is at the top of the list.

There really is only one way to lose or maintain weight: burn more calories than you take in. Which basically means, don't stop eating, exercise more. Humans also evolved to move, not sit behind a desk in a cubicle. Seriously, exercise is the key, and you can't do any at all if you're fasting, starving and lying in bed too weak to move.

I know this about fasting. I've done this. Don't do it too, I beg you!!!

[mrreowwr_kittty]

106. I lived in Japan too

I weighed around 145 lbs at 5'7" and was incredibly active, working out every day and sometimes twice a day. I felt like a huge fat cow next to the delicate Japanese women surrounding me. It now occurs to me that I probably shouldn't have been comparing myself to women who have a genetically different makeup than me. I felt unnecessarily bad about myself.

[El Pinko]

109. It's not genetic makeup. The average Japanese eats about half the calories of the avg. American.

Being active doesn't help you lose weight - you can run for a half hour and you barely burn 1 or 200 calories.


Americans eat an absurd amount of food, and Japanese and other Japanese who are raised here are almost as prone to obesity as Americans, when they abandon the traditional Asian diet.

Did you not notice when you went to a restaurant in Japan, that the servings of everything were about half as big. Even if you order a coke, it comes in a glass that would be less than a "child's size" in the US.

At first, I was surprised and thought it was too little.

But when I made my portions more like the amounts the Japanese eat (obviously a bit more, since I'm taller), lo and behold, I started losing weight. Go figure.

[distantearlywarning]

111. Although I completely buy that the Japanese eat fewer calories,

the notion that I could ever look like your average fragile Japanese girl is frankly ridiculous. Sorry, but it is.

As much as we don't want to admit it, there are some basic genetic differences between races, some of which have to do with body type.

When I was at my lowest adult weight ever, I was in high school, my metabolism was incredibly fast, and on top of that I was doing some drugs that increased it even more. I was at what would eventually become my adult height already (5'5"), but weighed just a little over 90 lbs. In other words, I was really damn thin, with a BMI of about 15.5. In other words, extremely underweight.

Pictures of myself at that time show that I have a gaunt face and don't look too good. But you know what? I also still had C-cup breasts (they don't go away when I lose weight), and big broad shoulders. I don't look the slightest bit like any of the little tiny Asian girls I knew at that time. Not a bit. I look like an unhealthily underweight Scandanavian girl, which is what I was. I still towered over the Asian girls, I still had a certain broadness of figure not related to weight, my wrists were big and strong, even though my waist was probably about 18 inches I still had flaring hips, and so on.

There is literally no way for me to lose enough weight to look as little as the average Japanese girl. I'm just not built that way. And it isn't natural for me to be that little either, given my genetic background. Having been everywhere between 90 and 190 in my lifetime, I have to say I thought I felt and looked my best at an athletic 135, which is probably about 25 lbs heavier than your average Japanese girl (and your average Hollywood actress too). And believe me, at 135 I look like a freakin' giant next to little Asian girls.

And that's fine with me. I'm proud of being a big strapping Norwegian girl. I put on muscle very quickly for a woman (and lots of it too), I can lift my own bags into an overhead bin (something I had to do for a little Asian girl on a plane once - the bag only weighed 20 lbs or so :eyes:), I look terrific in low-cut dresses and halter tops, and I love feeling competent and strong and being able to effectively compete with most men at sports (which I do, even at my much higher weight now).

Trust me, I'm not knocking the Japanese way of eating or anything. I LOVE Japanese food. Edamame is my favorite food ever, and I'm also a bit obsessed with sushi. But eating it isn't going to make me a size 0 with no boobs or hips any more than it will give me almond-colored skin and silky black hair. I have the tilted eyes already, but they're going to stay blue. :-)

[El Pinko]

112. I'm not saying that Asians and Caucasians are identical.

That Americans eat twice as much as Japanese is a fact. I'm not saying that I think Americans, who generally have bigger frames, should eat exactly as much as Japanese. But our frames are not TWICE AS BIG. Let's say the average American is 4-6 in. taller than the average Japanese. So about 10% taller - bigger skeleton, bigger organs, etc. So maybe an American should be eating about 20-30% more than a Japanese would but not TWICE AS MUCH. The average American man eats 3500-4000 calories PER DAY. I'm 6'2", fit and healthy, not skinny, and I don't eat over 2k.

Also, I'm not touting the superiority of the CONTENT of the Japanese diet. There are wide variations in what people eat, based on region and personal preference. There are a lot of people who lean way too heavily on the white rice, but there are a lot who eat brown rice, and more veggies and fish.

Personally, I don't think the Japanese diet is any better than the mediterranean diet, or even an American-style diet, provided that fats, proteins, carbs are well-balanced and adequate fresh vegetables are consumed.

I personally think that the number one thing that is better about the Japanese diet is that it contains a lot less calories.

I was saddened last time we went back there - the McDonald's there are now selling a burger called "Mega Mac" - it's a Big Mac, but with FOUR patties instead of 2. It's the first I've really seen of the US "supersize" phenomenon there, and unless people are splitting the burger with a friend, I think it can only contribute to worsening Japanese people's health.

[distantearlywarning]

113. I agree with pretty much everything in this post.

And by the way, I actually really hate American fast food. My dream would be to have a little take-out sushi place on every corner instead of a McDonalds. I am a great lover of fish, and not so much a lover of beef (which is the only meat everyone seems to eat here).

My other huge pet peeve about the American diet is that it is totally filled with bread. Don't even get me started on breakfast food here. I could rant for paragraphs about how if I can't get breakfast at home one day my only choices where I work are bread, sugar-filled death pastries, more bread, bread bread bread, cereal, bread, and pancakes (a type of bread). Nobody in this country has apparently ever heard of selling someone a hard-boiled egg and a pear for breakfast. And I f***ing LOATHE f***ing bread! Same with lunch - you can't buy a damn thing at any restaurant that doesn't come with some bread-like product attached to it. And every piece of bread in America is filled with HFCS, which I have found out that I am intolerant to (it does bad things to my digestive system that would be way too much TMI to go into here).

What I need is sushi places on every corner that are open for breakfast. Raw fish, avocado, a little rice, a little edamame and I would be all set, every day. It would be a great start to every day...

[El Pinko]

114. Wow, you'd hate Japan then - they eat a surprising amount of bread!

They have lovely bakeries full of all kinds - LOL.

I personally think some amount of bread can be a goood part of a balanced diet - my typical lunch is chicken breast on 1/4 a baguette.

But yes, US foods are a bit heavy on the bready-wheaty stuff.

And HFCS is evil.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

120. So you think I should have felt bad. Thanks. nt

[El Pinko]

123. How you felt is none of my concern.

Upon realizing "Wow. People in this culture actually eat much smaller portions than people do in mine, and everyone looks fit and trim", you can feel bad about yourself if you want, but I don't really see the point.

It didn't make me feel bad, it just made me reconsider the kinds of portions and the types of foods I'd been eating since childhood.

Wanting to improve your health and fitness is a good thing.

Feeling bad about your body shape is really only useful if you use that feeling as motivation for positive change.


Look at it another way. I'm a guy - I've lost 100 lbs. But I will NEVER have the broad shoulders and narrow waist of a Brad Pitt. I'm more like a Zach Braff.

I can lift weights, get cut, etc, but I will never have that kind of a frame, and I accept that gladly.

But should I have accepted and loved the 100 excess lbs. of mostly flab that was giving me GERD, ankle pain, high blood cholesterol, and slowly killing me?

I don't think so. That fat was not ME. Being overweight is no reason to hate yourself.


So you looked at the Japanese and their eating habits, felt bad, but then decided "Oh well, why fight it - I'm genetically different, so I HAVE TO eat twice as much as they do", then I don't know what to say. Maybe you approach things on too much of an emotional basis, instead of being more logical about what you want.

Or maybe you were logical - and it turns out that you want a high, American-style calorie intake more than you want the health benefits a Japanese-style lower-calorie regimen might provide, if adopted as a permanent lifestyle. There's nothing wrong with that. But people should be given the facts. A lot of people are still confused about why they get so fat on the Standard American Diet. But the Standard American Diet is a recipe for obesity for the majority of people. I just want to dispel the notion that it is possible to eat it and remain healthy. For most people, it is not.

People need to stop "going on diets", losing weight and then going back on the S.A.D. It's a recipe for disaster.

They need to be on a regimen of GOOD, QUALITY, WHOLE FOODS (that means no processed "diet" foods like Lean Cuisine and those stupid protein bars) in reasonable portions.

"Convenience" is what's killing us.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

124. I love how you ASSume how much I was eating.

Of course, being a giant cow of 145 lbs (and probably body fat percentage in the single digits - but it seems the average male mind can't seem to comprehend a woman weighing more that 110 without being a flabby beast) I HAD to be eating twice as much as Japanese women. I just HAD to be.

Oh, and nice ad hominem about how I "approach things on too much of an emotional basis, instead of being more logical...".

I'm sure you're just a real hit with the ladies, aren't you?

[El Pinko]

125. Ahem...

I never called you fat. YOU made the comparison between yourself and the Japanese people. I have no idea what your body fat % is or how you carry your weight. For all I know, you're a bombshell and the picture of health. If so, more power to you! (And even if you're not, more power to you! As long as you're armed with the facts, your body is yours to maintain as you please!)

"Oh, and nice ad hominem about how I "approach things on too much of an emotional basis, instead of being more logical...". "

Catburgler, it was YOU who made it all about your feelings, not me.

We're all affected on an emotional level by our body image, but you certainly made it sound like you're letting your emotions - feeling inadequate next to the dainty Japanese girls, and the comfort feelings associated with the diet we all grew up on - determine the way you maintain your body. I'm just saying we need to step aside from that and take a cold, detached look at what is best for our bodies.

I don't ASSume anything about what you're eating, but if you're anything like 95% of Americans, you eat/ate a lot more processed convenience foods than Japanese do (although the younger ones do like the cup ramen!) and significantly bigger portions. Was my assumption wrong? Did you find the portions you had in Japan to be similar to the portions you were always accustomed to?

It's amazing how defensive you are about this when I haven't made a single assertion about your idivicual diet or body makeup, because I admittedly know nothing about it.

Everything I've said was regarding the STANDARD AMERICAN DIET, which is 3500-4000 cal of preservative-laden prepackaged crap, overloaded with fat, carbs and animal protein and totally lacking in fresh fruits and vegetables.

Maybe you eat it, maybe you don't. But most Americans do. Most Americans consider things like "Hot Pockets" to be "food".



An aside - Japanese have an expression "hara hachibu", which means only eat until you feel about 80% full. It's another good rule of thumb...

[mrreowwr_kittty]

126. Japanese women also have massive problems with eating disorders

There have been reports of young girls committing suicide because of their weight.

Real healthy, huh? Things aren't always what they seem so please can it with the patronizing 'advice', based on your limited and shallow knowledge of women's experience.

[El Pinko]

127. Some American girls have EDs and commit suicide, too.

I'm comparing the standard diet of each country, not the small percentage of girls in either country who have let fashion mags brainwash them into thinking they have to look like skeletons to be attractive.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

128. Small percentage? OMG, you really are clueless.

Please, stop trying to be "helpful".

Just stop. You really don't know what you're talking about.

[El Pinko]

129. What is the percentage? 1%? 3%? 5%?

I didn't see many skeletal waif girls in my years in Japan, and I sure as hell don't see many of them here.

Are you going to tell me most girls have eating disorders now?

And what does this have to to with the topic at hand?

Does the fact that a small minority of girls have ED's justify mainstream America's normalization of overeating? I think not.


"Just stop. You really don't know what you're talking about."


I guess I don't.

So what is it that you know?

60+% of Americans are overweight, and almost 30% are obese.

Instead of looking to nations with low rates of obesity-related disease and high longevity for an example to follow, I suppose the obvious solution to this serious health problem is just to continue eating too-large portions of processed junk, and then, if we simply "accept" the flab, it will be nice and not kill us with diabetes and arteriosclerosis. :sarcasm:

[distantearlywarning]

134. That's a bit dishonest.

You definitely implied that the reason she was bigger than Japanese girls was because she ate more than they did. And what's worse, you then suggested that she behaved in that way because she was irrational. To wit:

So you looked at the Japanese and their eating habits, felt bad, but then decided "Oh well, why fight it - I'm genetically different, so I HAVE TO eat twice as much as they do", then I don't know what to say. Maybe you approach things on too much of an emotional basis, instead of being more logical about what you want.

Nothing about her post would suggest that either one of those qualities that you attributed to her was true. On the contrary, she claimed that she was exercising a lot and living in Japan during this time***. And giving her unasked for tips on how to eat like the Japanese comes across as very smug and self-righteous, especially given that she said she lived there herself.

Beyond that, 145 for a 5'7" woman is a BMI of 22.7, well within the category of "normal weight". You may be interested to know that the average Japanese woman is 5'1 and 117 lbs**, which is a BMI of 22.1. In other words, not that different from what the poster presented about herself. She may have felt huge in Japan because she was lots taller than her Japanese peers and carrying more mass in general because of her height, but the truth is she wasn't fatter than the average Japanese person. I suspect, as she claimed, that you saw the number she posted and made an unwarranted assumption about the state of her health and her eating habits.

In general, you were insulting to her on a number of levels. Neither were you fair in making assumptions about her lifestyle. You owe her an apology.

**See http://asia.news.yahoo.com/071002/kyodo/d8s1345g1.html

***We all already know that you believe exercise will not help one be skinny. Nevertheless, the fact that she was exercising would more likely lead one to believe that she was already eating well than not eating well, as these two aspects of lifestyle are often correlated. In addition, there is no reason to assume that while she was living in Japan, she was refusing to live as the Japanese do by eating American fast food rather than the local cuisine. And if you have a doubt about these two behaviors, you should ask her before judging her.

[El Pinko]

142. The assumption was based on what she was replying to.

I made several assertions comparing the standard Japanese Diet to the Standard American Diet, to which she replied:

I weighed around 145 lbs at 5'7" and was incredibly active, working out every day and sometimes twice a day. I felt like a huge fat cow next to the delicate Japanese women surrounding me. It now occurs to me that I probably shouldn't have been comparing myself to women who have a genetically different makeup than me. I felt unnecessarily bad about myself.

Looking at it now, I realize that what she is talking about has no relation wo what I was talking about which was diet and health.

Because of the context of what she was replying to - my comments about the Japanese Diet vs. the US Diet, I read her comments to mean "Those Japanese are little tiny dainty things and we're not, so your idea that Americans should eat like the Japanese is wrong."

Looking back on it now, it's clear that she simply threw in her own unrelated comment about her own body image problems as related to Japanese girls, and I am sorry for misunderstanding, and I'm confused as to why someone would post their body image turmoil in response to a post that is all about the relative HEALTH BENEFITS of tow ways of eating.

I didn't calculate her BMI or really try to form a picture of her build in my mind. But I was not assuming that she was fat. My only assumption was that she was defending the Standard American Diet, using "diffferent genetics" as an excuse. I'm sorry for misunderstanding that. At the time I lived there, I was probably a bit too heavy, but not so much that I felt all embarrassed next to the trim Japanese. Heck, even when I was at 275 lbs, I thought I LOOKED okay. But I FELT TERRIBLE. GERD, gas, belching, joint pain, none of my clothes fit, short of breath, etc. But I didn't feel all grossed out by my body.

It's hard for me to imagine why a woman with a BMI of 22 would feel all down on herself for not being as dainty as the Japanese women.

You definitely implied that the reason she was bigger than Japanese girls was because she ate more than they did. And what's worse, you then suggested that she behaved in that way because she was irrational. To wit: "So you looked at the Japanese and their eating habits, felt bad, but then decided "Oh well, why fight it - I'm genetically different, so I HAVE TO eat twice as much as they do", then I don't know what to say. Maybe you approach things on too much of an emotional basis, instead of being more logical about what you want."

I assumed only that she was eating the S.A.D., which I mistakenly thought she was defending (since that's what I THOUGHT we were talking about!) which is different in content and volume from the Japanese Diet.

I really should have read her post more closely and understood that it was a totally off-topic vent about her own body image problems, one that had nothing to do with what she was replying to. I am sorry for not paying closer attention.

[El Pinko]

144. RE your link...

This doesn't surprise me. American-style fast food is catching on in Japan, and McDonald's is one of the cheapest places you can go for lunch from work. They have now started selling a burger there called a "Mega Mac, which is a big Mac, but with 4 patties instead of 2. It's the first I've really seen of the "super-size" phenomena there. Also, although Japan has long been considered a "smoker's paradise", anti-smoking rules are starting to become more common and more and more are quitting smokeing - I wouldn't be surprised if some of those are gaining, while younger people are gaining from the increased amounts of fast food, cup ramen, etc.

The diet of the older people, largely fish, rice and traditional vegetables is the one that kept people so healthy for so long. I'm afraid that the generations growing up on Mickey D's will not be so healthy, and is "super-sizing" becomes a common phenomenon" it may only make it worse.

It's interesting that the women are staying slimmer. I wonder if it's because they follow the traditional diet more than the men.

I can't imagine it's all anorexia and bulimia...

[didact]

83. BMI is a very crude tool, water submersion is a true scale

[Ilsa]

6. Thanks for posting. I heard the report on CNN this morning

and figured that I need to get my ass in gear and lose about 25 pounds. Or more if I can. :pals:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

19. Ive got 50 to lose

and I just stepped into the wrong side of 30 so its not going to be as easy as it could have been 5 years ago..

[El Pinko]

26. I've lost 100 lbs since I was 36 over 2 years ago

I won't say it's been "easy", but it hasn't been torture either. I track what I eat at www.fitday.com and I also join in the discussions Here: http://caloriecount.about.com/forums/recent/

It's a great support system. Just be glad you're a man - I think women have a much harder time getting their weight in line than we do.

Anyway, I'm almost 39 now - I don't feel old, so you're a spring chicken!

In fact, since losing weight, I swear people think I'm in my twenties - I'm lucky to have few wrinkles, no gray or balding (knock wood). But you just have to kind of accept that you can never again

eat the way you did at 18 or 20 and get away with it. But if you eat high-quality nutritive foods, you'll be satisfied even with lower calorie intake.

[Ilsa]

46. Yeah, I'm creeping up on age 50 in a few months. I never had

more than 5 pounds to lose when I was in my 20's. I've lost the weight before, but it was very difficult and took alot of exercise, dietary discipline, good rest, and time.

[notadmblnd]

8. you also have to remember that fit doesn't mean healthy either.

Just ask my husband.. oh, that's right you can't, he's dead. 6 ft 160, weight lifter, died in his sleep peacefully over four years ago. I'm not disagreeing with your opinion, I'm just looking at it from another perspective. Not everyone who is overweight is healthy, but certainly not everyone who is overweight is sick.

[pop goes the weasel]

12. that's not what the study says

Nowhere does the study or even the article say that "fit but fat" is nonsense. It says that being fit doesn't make eliminate the extra heart health risks of being overweight but it does reduce them. The article also mentions a critic of the study, and why he thinks the study itself was flawed. Also, the study did not focus on people with morbid obesity, so you are bringing up something that is completely beside the point. You may as well bring anorexia as an argument against being thin if you are going to bring up morbid obesity as an argument against being plump.

[eridani]

44. A study based on questionnaires and self reporting is bullshit by definition n/t

[David__77]

15. It seems that everyone in this country struggles with weight.

Is it our relationship with food? Being sedentary? I mean, I'm very active and go to the gym and try to restrain my eating, but I still find that I have to watch things like a hawk or else it starts to creep up.

[El Pinko]

28. I think it's the replacement of real (whole) foods with fake processed convenience foods.

Even if you eat Lean Cuisine all the time, you are eating too much salt, too many additives, and old, nutrient-depleted crap which leaves your body longing for more nutrients - IE causing cravings.

When I got away from convenience foods and started making everything from raw ingredients, I no longer felt unsatisfied and no longer gained weight. I just try to stay the hell out of those aisles of the supermarket now - it's all overpriced garbage.

[mvccd1000]

31. Bingo!

That's the biggest change I made, and I dropped the 30 lbs I picked up when I started an office job.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

17. You were spot on in the other thread...

One active fat person can be healthier than another who is not atcive and they can even be healthier than a non fat smoker/drinker who is not active but they wont be as healthy as a person somewhere near an ideal weight who is active (barring chronic conditions)..

[eridani]

49. How relevant

People with the sickle cell anemia trait aren't as healthy as people without it. Why not give the latter medals or something?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

57. What the hell does that have to do with anything?

1) sickle cell is a genetic trait *everyone* who has it has it because its a chronic condition, obesity is mainly due to a poor diet and sedentary lifestyle more often than not its a choice.

2) Did I say people who are not obese should be given medals? did I say obese people should be punished?

[eridani]

66. Obesity is strictly genetic. Probably PKU would be a better analogy

If you are genetically obese and live in a typical human society where occasional semi-starvation and hard labor is the norm, then you will never actually become fat. However, if you are female, you are more likely to have normal-sized babies during hard times. That's why Syndrome X is so common.

Similarly, if you have PKU and your parents feed you a low phenylalanine diet during critical brain development, you will have normal intelligence. However, you still have PKU--a dietary treatment does NOT make it a "lifestyle" disease.

And yes, you are saying that obese people should be punished by being denied health care and even basic human dignity if they refuse to attempt to duplicate the semistarvation conditions that their ancestors were geneteically adapted to. Exercising 30 minute 3x a week will make them healthier, but it damned well won't make them average weight.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

70. No, its not genetic but *very* nice try...

Were obesity genetic it would not be rising 10% a decade. Are there *some* obese people who have genetic conditions? sure Id bet on it but the number has to be very, very small..

BTW where have I said they should be denied health care? and BTW I dont consider 20 pounds overweight obese or dangerously fat but when you get into 50-100? come on..

[eridani]

73. There is no inconsistency whatever. The only reason obesity is rising

--is exactly analogous to what would happen to the incidence of mental retardation if obstetricians stopped giving the PKU test and handing out the low phenylalanine diet sheets. You can't get PKU unless you have the genetics, and you can't get obese unless you have the genetics. Environmental conditions that trigger the genes' effects have clearly gotten worse--less free time, more poverty, less access to affordable good food. Not to mention that constant dieting is a major cause of weight gain in women. Have you noticed that the successful war on the working class gained a lot of steam in the 80s, just as the individual fitness movement really took off?

Obese people are routinely denied care, and you are promoting the mindset that justifies it.

[eridani]

77. OK, PKU is a better analogy

You get brain damage if your parents don't feed you a low phenylalanine diet. It's STILL a genetic disease, despite the fact that its only known treatment is dietary modification.

[Lex]

20. Alternatively, skinny people aren't by definition "fit" either.

Which is hard for people to wrap their minds around.

[BuelahWitch]

37. .

:thumbsup:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

96. "Fit" has become a code word for slim, especially where women are concerned.

And where it's possible to believe that a man could be 300 lbs. and fit (provided you qualify it by perceiving him to be very tall and muscular), most people can't conceive of a woman being fit if she weighs more than 120 lbs, even though some of the most fit women like Serena Williams and Laila Ali are more like 170 lbs.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

140. That's for sure.

I'm 120 lbs, 5'9", a smoker, and don't exercise more than walking about 3-10 miles per week. While I'm relatively 'healthy', I'm definitely not 'in shape'.

[Zhade]

21. My own doctors have a differing view - I'm fat, but with *perfect* heart rate/BP/etc.

NT!

[El Pinko]

29. I hear this a lot - usually from someone in their 20s or early 30s...

It's easy to seem healthy when you are young, but the extra weight is probably laying down plaques in your arteries already, and the weight eventually catches up with you and starts to degrade your health.

That's not to say everyone needs to be skinny or at their ideal weight. Oprah, for example, looked weird when she got so skinny in the 80s, but now has settled into a good balance between her natural tendency to be a bit heavier, and staying on the loww end of that by being active and eating right.

If only everyone could afford the cooks and trainers Oprah has...

[Horse with no Name]

25. If they would take corn syrup out of our food

then the numbers might change.

[Lex]

27. It's freakin' crazy the stuff that it's in.

It's in low-calorie bread for cryin' out loud.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

105. I've made a concerted effort to avoid it, but it's hard.

The stuff really is in everything.

[BuelahWitch]

38. The American ideal of "fit"

[malakai2]

40. Uh, no

Go back up and cruise that Tom Brady picture again. There is such a thing as a healthy weight range in the middle of the range of possible weights, and while I think there are issues with applying BMI to everyone without regard for build and body type, it's pretty obvious that people who look like concentration camp inmates as well as people who can't shop for groceries without straining a little motorized cart do not fall into that middle range.

[eridani]

50. People who are much shorter or taller than average are unhealthier than average also

And men with male pattern baldness are at much more risk for heart disease. Maybe they should wear toupees--their appearance is obviously the main contributing factor here.

[malakai2]

64. if people don't want to bother managing risk factors they can control

That's fine with me. Their lives, their choices. To post a picture of a person who by any measure is underweight as a response to the OP is ridiculous.

[eridani]

67. You can't control your weight

You can decide to eat healthier and exercise more, but there is ZERO control over what effect making these changes will have on your weight in real life. Fat people who exercise typically become fat people who weight less and are healthier, but they are still fat, and nothing other than lifelong heroic efforts will change that. And plenty of them are goddam fucking sick of you smug shitstains insisting that they have to take on what amounts to an extremely demanding permanent part time job in order to be considered worthy of basic human respect.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

71. Horse crap..

I lost 20 pounds in several months with a slight dieatary change (mostly portions) there are DUers here who have lost much more and my mother at the age of 55 decided to get serious about her health and has dropped 120 pounds on diet alone! (she lost it in 3 years which is hardly life long)...

[eridani]

74. Well bully for you! My skin got way lighter when I stayed indoors all winter

That didn't happen for any African American who did the same thing. That clearly proves that they are doing it wrong and they have nobody to blame but themselves for the correlation of dark skin with lower lifespans, right? :sarcasm:

People who take personal credit for how their genetics responds to dietary changes are arrogant shitstains. I guarantee you there are hundreds of thousands who did pretty much exactly what you did over the last year, and some of them lost much more weight than you did, some lost much less, and some didn't change at all. All outcomes completely beyond anyone's direct control.

I wish that 5% of temporary success stories would STFU about the other 95% who fail. Failure is the norm here.

I have a friend who went from 350 to 250 lbs, and guess what? She still gets plenty of public abuse from people like you. The process took about 3 years, and she has maintained for 2 more with no further changes in her weight.

Ironically, people with metabolic Syndrome X (possible 1/3) of the population, get the greatest health benefits from exercise and better eating, and are the least likely to lose weight while doing so.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

78. Thank you!

There are so many factors that contribute to a person's body size and weight, not limited to genetics, lifestyle, access to nutritious food and exercise opportunities, etc.

And as far as "health" is concerned, why is so much more attention paid to how good a person looks in a bathing suit than to what his/her blood pressure and vital statistics are? Britney Spears may be on death's door, for all we know, but she looked really good on the cover of People Magazine!

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

86. Uggg way to bring up something *nobody* here is talking about

This is not about 'how you look in a swim suit'. I couldn't possibly care less! This is about higer rates of:

* Hypertension (high blood pressure)
* Osteoarthritis (a degeneration of cartilage and its underlying bone within a joint)
* Dyslipidemia (for example, high total cholesterol or high levels of triglycerides)
* Type 2 diabetes
* Coronary heart disease
* Stroke
* Gallbladder disease
* Sleep apnea and respiratory problems
* Some cancers (endometrial, breast, and colon)

And other problems...

The people her screaming this is about (1) hating overweight people or (2) pushing idealistic standards of beauty are doing the cyber equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling very, very loud. Nobody here is saying we should all have the following dimensions (X , Y, Z) or that overweight people should be punished by society but hell when you scream that out you can take over the conversation and paint others as evil people so why deal with the issue when you can attack people right?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

89. Unless you're walking around with a stethoscope

You have no idea how healthy people are by looking at them.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

90. Right, whatever....

If you seriously want to say a 10% rise in obesity which statistically leads to these increases is only relevant if your mobbing people with a stethoscope youre so obtuse its not worth dealing with you..

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

92. So let me get this striaght..

If Im not fat then Im a judgmental asshole who cant understand

If I am fat then Im a self hating asshole even though I understand...

Nice! You confront the fact there is a 10% rise in one decade in obesity with name calling... You rock dude..

:headbang:

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

95. What, pray tell, am i denying?

I could *care less* if I'm being judged if I walk down the street and no, I don't deny that someone looks at me and says either eww or 'oh that poor man' yet I work to lose weight not to satisfy them, or to look good at the beach, but to feel better after running up six flights of stairs (well its more a fast waddle at this point). I'm doing it to be a more active healthy father and model for my kids.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

80. You still have to whip out that old 'you hate them meme'

So I seem to be equal footing with your abusive and inept comments.... Knock it off

--

Why dont you try asking people questions rather than going off half cocked about how terrible they are here Ill try

1) Is there a genetic component to obesity. Yes some people will hold weight more than others, is there a genetic component to alcoholism? Yes some people can clearly become addicted to the drink more quickly than others.

Does this mean that someone born prone to being an alcoholic or obese might as well give up and enjoy the ride? hell no if you have the genes for alcoholism dont drink, or drink very *very* little. If you're born with the genes for obesity you should eat portions and food which is appropriate for your metabolism.

2) Do I think more of myself than obese people? hell no I have my own struggles with weight and drink, and other things. I dont think they should be denied care, love, or human compassion any more than I.

Does love mean telling someone walking around with so much extra weight that they are likely shortening their life that there is nothing they can do? NO! Love corrects I correct my kid, my wife corrects me, I correct her Love wants what is best for others.

3) Do I think people should strive to satisfy the BMI? NO. You should eat and be active enough for a reasonably good health but for 99% of people thats *not* going to be too far over weight. My 'ideal weight' is 172 and Id love to get down there but I would be more than content with 185-190 (I sit at about 235).

If obesity we so controlled *only* by genetics it would not be 0% higher today than 10 years ago its our diet, life style, and environmnet doing it.

[distantearlywarning]

82. Here's the problem with the "don't drink" argument:

As the grandchild of alcoholics, I can choose to avoid alcohol on a regular basis (and I do). I do not need alcohol to survive, nor does my body prompt me to drink or make me feel sick if I don't. Now, if I were an alcoholic, that might be true, but I never drank enough to have that be a problem.

On the other hand, I was born with the strong biological urge to eat, like every other human on this planet. From day one, my body made me feel sick and weak if I went more than 6-8 hours without consuming food. If I give up food entirely I die. It is not possible for me to avoid eating, just like everyone else out there.

Instead, to compensate for a slow metabolism, according to you I must simply eat portions and food appropriate for that metabolism. In other words, eat a little, while other, luckier people all around me are eating a lot.

How well do you think an alcoholic would survive with that advice - a real alcoholic who has a strong biological urge to drink? You tell them, you have to go into the bar every single day 3 times a day, and sit next to people having 18 drinks at a time, and you must only have 1. Because that is your lot in life, and if you fail to have the willpower to do that, we will all judge you and stigmatize you and say that you are a worthless lazy person. And no, you can't just not drink at all, you have to drink but only have 1 drink every time. Good luck (sucker)!

Because that's what it's like for someone with a slow metabolism. They have to eat 1200 calories a day (which believe me, for them doesn't feel any less like starvation than it would for a person with a faster metabolism), while simultaneously overcoming both social pressure to eat more and their body's own biological pressure to keep from starving. Some people can do it. Most people can't. And that's why most dieters eventually fail. Most of us are not biologically built to have the willpower to starve ourselves forever, and for good reason. For most of human history, it was a bonus to have a metabolism that was extremely efficient at turning food into fat, and it wasn't beneficial at all to be the sort of person who could deliberately starve themselves without suffering major consequences.

I used to be a smoker, and 7 years ago I quit for good after several failed attempts. Some people say that addiction to nicotine is worse than addiction to heroin. But I have to say, I could quit smoking 100 times for every pound that I have ever lost. And the reason is because I was able to quit smoking cold turkey. After the first month or so, the cravings were mainly psychological, so I was able to get through it. If I had to quit smoking the way people diet in this country I'd probably be up to 3 packs a day at this point - still having a strong biological urge to smoke every 4-5 hours, and being forced to smoke, but only allowed one cigarette, or half a cigarette, and feeling intensely guilty and worthless every time I took a drag. That would never, ever work for me. But that's what dieting is like.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

85. Well, you do drink

Just not Alcohol and people with a tenancy to be hold weight need to eat but maybe, just maybe, there are certain foods they need to avoid. You drink water, juice, maybe a little soda at a ball game but you avoid the drink which you know is bad for you. Where another person might be fine having a few beers or having a case in their home it could lead to bad things for you so you dont do it.

"Instead, to compensate for a slow metabolism, according to you I must simply eat portions and food appropriate for that metabolism. In other words, eat a little, while other, luckier people all around me are eating a lot."

Sounds like life does it not? whats easy for some is not for others. I have to be careful what and how much I drink despite the culture in which I live, it was a real pain in college but somehow I survived. My mother, as mentioned elsewhere, decided to lose weight and she cut back on her portions the first 6 months was very hard for her; when dad would have a huge honking bowl of cereal she would have one serving of cereal and one serving of milk. She still got to eat what she wanted just not as much as she craved. (I'm not a fan of crash or denial diets, if you want to treat yourself with an ice cream at the end of a hard week you should have at it just keep the portion down). She has lost more than 100 pounds and kept it off for about 5 years.

"How well do you think an alcoholic would survive with that advice - a real alcoholic who has a strong biological urge to drink? You tell them, you have to go into the bar every single day 3 times a day, and sit next to people having 18 drinks at a time, and you must only have 1."

I know many alcoholics who survive like this *raising hand* its called nursing a drink and I'm a pro some in my family never learned the skill and don't drink at all (when they go out they get a soda or something). But, and this is your logic, its better for someone with a genetic proficiency to be an alcoholic to avoid their vice yes? why then is it not wisdom for someone who's metabolism and genetic make up will turn fast food or even crap food from the store into a health condition *not* avoid those foods? I'm not saying they should be forced or taxed or any of that crap but we are talking what is wise and good for them to do themselves. Its not easy but the things in life which are fruitful and good are seldom easy.

"Because that is your lot in life, and if you fail to have the willpower to do that, we will all judge you and stigmatize you and say that you are a worthless lazy person."

Oh put down that little violin, I have never said they are worthless or lazy, I don't think that about pretty much anyone. I think they are victims of (1) our lifestyle (2) our diet (3) our culture (do what feels good and screw the consequences) and (4) enablers.

"Because that's what it's like for someone with a slow metabolism. They have to eat 1200 calories a day (which believe me, for them doesn't feel any less like starvation than it would for a person with a faster metabolism)"

Ive eaten a 1200 calorie diet, yes I know its a pain, at first, but the body does adjust hell chances are if your genetically prone to put on weight your ancestors survived, and well, on less than that. Your problem is that you equate eating better food and smaller portions to 'cold turkey' quitting. While I despise 'diets' as many Americans understand the term there are ways of changing your diet which can greatly help.

BTW the 'diets' I have seen work wean your calories down they don't start at 1200 and they involve learning (1) how to portion food (2) how to eat until you are no longer hungry but to stop before you are 'full' and (3) how to snack.

[distantearlywarning]

87. For your information:

I have hypothyroidism.

I already follow all the advice you give in your smug post (don't eat fast food, eat smaller portions, stop before you are full, etc), and have for years. That's the way I normally eat.

I do not lose weight on that diet. For me to lose weight, I would probably have to drop below 1200 calories a day, and even then it might be doubtful. In fact, I've done it for short periods in the past, and it really, really sucked. I sincerely doubt the average person could do it. And I doubt that you did it very long, or that you could do it your whole life. If you did, kudos. You are the most willpowering willpowerer person of us all, oh superior one.

It is unjust to demand that people starve themselves while simultaneously refusing to address any societal, biological, or environmental causes of weight gain. And it's not progressive to demand it. Period.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

88. So you represent what % of overweight and obese people

(btw nothing smug about my post as I have nothing to be smug about)...

I love all the outliers coming in and saying well I have X so obviously diet has nothing to do with the legion of overweight 10 year olds were building or the 10% rise in american obesity in 10 years.

"If you did, kudos. You are the most willpowering willpowerer person of us all, oh superior one."

Here is your violin... :nopity: You're certainly earning it..

"It is unjust to demand that people starve themselves while simultaneously refusing to address any societal, biological, or environmental causes of weight gain."

Now oh victim of victims... Please show me where I said otherwise? Show me where I said societal and environment causes should be ignored?.... You and some others continue to try to put words in the mouths of others...

[distantearlywarning]

97. Actually, I'm probably not an outlier.

At least by the standard definition of that term. What I am is at the end of a curve, and there are many others out there with me. If you happen to be at the center of that curve, good for you. But your experience doesn't necessarily translate to those of us in the 2nd or 3rd standard deviation, and you can't make it so no matter how much you argue with, denigrate, or ridicule your opponents.

I have hypothyroidism (along with perhaps as many as 20% of American women), which means that *for me*, dieting doesn't help me lose weight as it might for the other 80%.

Hypothyroidism is but one small cause of obesity in America, and it is a cause that I happen to care about a lot having experienced its effects first hand.

However, there are other conditions that could contribute to difficulty losing weight under the "3500 calories = 1 lb" rule, such as differences in genetic makeup, viruses (which I believe was discussed up-thread or in another thread), other metabolic disorders, and medication use (including many anti-depressants, which are among the most common medications prescribed in our society). How many fat people in America fall into one of these categories? I'm guessing more than just an "outlier" or two.

There are also environmental and social factors that have changed our society since the 1970's, not the least of which is the addition of high fructose corn syrup to many of our foods, including staples like bread, vegetable soup, canned beans and so forth. Social norms about the safety of children while playing outside have changed, people work longer hours now, both members of a family work, people living in urban areas have little access to safe places to exercise or grocery stores, the list is pretty much endless. These people might be able to lose weight following a reasonable diet, but their lifestyles aren't conducive to making that easy or even possible at all in some cases. How many people in America are affected by one or more of these factors?

AND YET...all of the posts in threads like these focus on one thing only - food in vs. calories burned, and the individual's personal responsibility for that relationship. People like you NEVER bother discussing any of the myriad of things in our culture that could be causing a rise in obesity in the last 20 years or any of the problems that an individual might have that contribute to their own personal problems with weight, you only focus on "eat smaller portions, don't be such a lazy-ass". It's totally trite advice and not helpful. And yes, it's smug and superior.

Frankly, it reminds me of the arguments the Repukes use about welfare and poor people. They have it in their tiny little pinheads that EVERY SINGLE PERSON who is poor or sick got that way on their own and if they just pulled a little on their bootstraps they'd be millionaires in no time. And they never like to hear about any of the problems in our society that might be contributing to across-the-board social issues, preferring instead to call anyone who disagrees with them a "whiner" or insinuate that they are somehow making themselves into victims.

It's not a very progressive viewpoint, whether you're talking about poor or fat or sick or whatever. Open your mind, dude, and try to accept that maybe things aren't quite as easy for everyone else as they are for you.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

98. The reason for the focus

is thats all you can control. You cant control your genetics or your exposure to the suspected 'fat virus' but you can control what and how much you eat. You can also control how active you are..

If you're doing all the best you can and because of genetics or infection or planetary alignment than whats left to be said. But if you're (I don't mean you I mean person X) is not eating well not working at 30 minutes to an hour a day then chances are you can lose some weight...

And *no* having 100 extra pounds on you is *not* good for you even if it is beyond your control.

[distantearlywarning]

104. As a society we could probably control many of the factors I mentioned.

But first we have to get past the "personal responsibility" social norm so prevalent in our culture.

Personally, I doubt that's going to happen any time soon. We can't even seem to overcome that bias here at DU. :-(

[Missy Vixen]

117. Oh, I'm an "outlier", too

As are the ten million others estimated to have hypothyroidism in this country, and the thirteen million that are undiagnosed as such. Women are the primary sufferers of hypothyroidism and the only sufferers of PCOS, which also adds pounds that do not melt away.

I might also mention, Mr. Smug and Self-Righteous, (and frankly, I'll take the goddamn deletion; I'm so sick and tired of reading shit like this I could scream,) you are a MAN. It is easier for men to lose weight, PERIOD, than it ever is for a woman. Try looking into the fact that women convert food into fat more effectively than men do, and hang onto that fat due to the fact that we bear children, and you don't.

You haven't listened to a thing that distantearlywarning has had to say. She's made a VALID point. Food is not like alcohol. We don't need alcohol to live, but we need to eat. Eridani's comments about weight loss and maintenance for those of us who suffer from a disease we didn't ask to contract being a demanding and eternal part-time job is accurate as well. I might also mention that being sentenced to a 1200 calorie a day diet, not to mention working out (at minimum) an hour a day to please the aesthetics of jerks like yourself, makes me realize more than ever that perhaps it would be better for those of us who are utterly tired of the acceptance (and the passive encouragement,) of the anti-fat bigotry on this site should either rethink or outright cancel their financial support.

Julie

[Runcible Spoon]

108. "I could quit smoking 100 times for every pound that I have ever lost"

yep ain't that the truth. My mother has struggled with eating behavior issues and weight since she had kids, and she used to say something like "well heroin addicts have it easy. They can just banish their monster forever, I have to take mine out of its cage and pet it several times a day".

[lolly]

141. Thank You, EarlyWarning

You put everything I wanted to say into words.

I'm not sure what it takes to get through to people that it's much, much easier for some to lose weight than others. I'm sick to death of the "you must be a lazy glutton" attitude.

I started working out a couple years ago--weight training, treadmills--and guess what? I've gained 20 pounds. My appetite skyrocketed. I was burning a couple hundred extra calories a day, but craving much more. And I know plenty of people who weigh far less than I do who eat more and never work out.

It's NOT the same for everyone, and it's not the same throughout your life. I'm sure I ate nearly twice as many calories/day when I was 22 as I do now, and I weighed 45 less and never gave my weight a second thought.

[eridani]

101. It's genetic the way PKU is genetic

That defect does not mean you will be brain-damaged. All you have to do is avoid food high in phenylalanine until your brain develops. But PKU is still a GENETIC, and not a "lifestyle" disease. Obesity is exactly the same. More environmental triggers means that it will occur more frequently.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

99. BTW:

"Well bully for you! My skin got way lighter when I stayed indoors all winter"

No it did not, your skin got darker in the summer and went back to its normal color in the winter, the same thing happens to African Americans who do, believe it or not, get darker in the summer and lighter in the winter, they can burn and everything...

[eridani]

100. But nobody notices the way they do with white folks. n/t

[NikolaC]

150. It Is Good

To be talking about health and weight management issues, etc. We do need to since there is a problem. However, I have found that it goes beyond concern in many cases straight to prejudice, abuse, being judgemental, humiliation, condescension and cruelty. In some cases one does not have a clue about what made a person "fat" or obese, it is just assumed that a person is that way due to poor eating habits, laziness and gluttony. There are other sides to that as well, not excuses, but ACTUAL reasons.

My first husband had a weight problem off and on his whole life (both of his parents and sister were also obese), he then found out about his congenital heart problem and had many other health issues as well that complicated things. He tried to lose weight so that he could get a gastric bypass. Unfortunately, one of the drugs that were prescribed for him made him retain a lot of water and weight and his weight ballooned, not because he was not taking care of himself, but because of his medication. In the end he did not have the bypass surgery because he died due to heart failure. When I think of how many times he was laughed at, derided, made fun of, stared at and treated as sub-human because some smart ass thought that his weight was their business and that he was there for their scorn and amusement, it made me ill and angry. I don't even want to get into the whole issue of going to the gym and some abuse suffered there. Sometimes I wanted to ask what other reason would an obese person be in a gym working out, dimwit? Obviously they are not there for more humiliation and poor treatment, jackass.

If, as some say, they care about the obesity epidemic and want to "sincerely" help, then don't fucking judge, make fun of or humiliate someone because of their size. Chances are that many of them are aware of the fact that they are obese and maybe, unbeknownst to the public, they are trying to get help and doing something about it, or maybe (as with my first husband) they are on a medication that has made them balloon up, you NEVER really know.

[spooky3]

153. lessons from my two cats

One of them eats about three times a day, never a full dish of food, and sometimes very little, if he doesn't like it. He weighs 17 lbs. He's not very active, prefers snuggling and petting to just about anything else.

The other one eats every time he can get you to feed him. He never eats much at any one time, but would eat 20 times a day if you indulged him. The most he ever weighed was a little less than 10 lbs., which occurred just after I adopted him. He was probably terrified that he might not get another meal, after having been dumped outside in mid-winter and nearly starved, so he ate anything and everything available, for awhile. He is more active than the first kitty, but is getting less so, and now weighs less than 8 lbs., in part due to other health problems.

My point is that, while it was clear that their different activity levels account for some of their weight differences, the major factor seems to be that they have very different metabolisms. Even now, the thin one eats more than the first, unless the big one is locking the thin one in the bathroom at night and eating the small amount of the dry food left out that I thought they were sharing.

Of course people who visit make comments about how fat the bigger one is, and they never believe that the little one actually eats more. But I even measured their intake over a 2 week period (with no food available at night) and the pattern was really consistent.

It reminded me I should be less quick to judge people too.

[Silver Swan]

62. A picture of statistical manipulation

This chart illustrates what happens when the definitions of "overweight" and "obese" are adjusted downward, as they were in 1998.

http://edition.cnn.com/HEALTH/9806/03/weight.measure/index.html

[malakai2]

65. CDC's methodology is there

The upward trend in BMI also seems to be there. If it's dishonest, it's no more dishonest than posting a pic of a skin and bones model to characterize the research noted in the OP.

[Bettie]

45. Thank YOU!

This was the point I was going to make.

I'm so tired of people judging me and others based on what we look like.

I am 41 years old (closer to 42 actually) and am in perfect health. Okay, I admit it, I have a tendency to sinus infections and a bad ankle from my years of dancing at Renaissance Faires, so maybe perfect is overstating the issue. Still, my BP, blood sugar, RHR and recovery rate, cholesterol and other indicators are well within normal ranges, most of them toward the low end of normal.

My doctor actually laughed when I recently asked if I need to diet, telling me that my health is better than most of his patients. He suggested that I get a little more exercise and work to eat healthy whole foods (which I already do, most of the time), but that a diet is just a road to increased weight and decreased health.

So, here I am, a fat woman, a mom, and an active member of my community. My husband and children love me regardless of the fact that I'm not a stick figure, but from what I have read on this thread and others here, by being fat, I am offensive to the world. By being fat, I am going to die (probably any second now).

Oh and did any of you ever think that being fat is largely a women's issue? Men can be a bit overweight and no one says a damn word, but if ia woman is above a size 0 she's considered horribly fat! We women are expected to disappear, to become nothing, a size 0 in order to be "acceptable".

It makes me sick, but then, I have no right to even say a word, since I am an untouchable since I am frankly, fat.

[El Pinko]

54. I've seen this photoset before - it should be pointed out that this is photoshopped.

NT

[eridani]

43. What bullshit. A fucking QUESTIONNAIRE?

For your information, the Cooper Aerobics Institute studies indicating the exact opposite actually MEASURED weight, height, and aerobic fitness directly.

[eridani]

79. Still waiting for someone to explain why a questionnaire study--

--has more valid results than many other studies based on real physical measurements.
<crickets>

[mrreowwr_kittty]

107. Sloppy ass MSM will push any "study" that supports their corporate agenda, no matter how dubious

Weight loss is a multi-billion dollar industry, along with multi-gazillion junk food industry that puts the weight back on you as soon as you lose it. Maintaining this vicious revolving-door requires the constant peddling of junk scientific "journalism" to keep people confused.

[treestar]

119. Bingo

Follow the money and you'll always have your answer.

[eridani]

47. You may as well just blather on about how people with sickle cell anemia are less healthy

Type II diabetes and weight gain in adulthood are genetic in origin, and the question is what to do about it other than mentally and physically abuse people with the trait. Exercise and better eating help a lot, but they will never make people with this trait of average weight if they live in a society that is sedentary and provides most people with enough to eat. Among the Pima (the people with the world's highest incidence of metabolic syndrome X), the women with the longest life spans are twice actuarial ideal weight and the longest lived men are 150% heavier.

[distantearlywarning]

51. Personally, I'd be more trusting of study results that involved actual fitness testing

rather than questionnaires about how fit people believed they were.

But hey, don't let bad methodology keep you from indulging your personal biases or anything.

[eridani]

103. Bingo. The Cooper Aerobic Institute studies contradict the OP

They are base on real measurments.

[Jennicut]

53. I have diabetes so losing weight with insulin is very hard, I wish my BMI was lower

I am confused because if you look at me I do not look obese or overweight but technically I need to lose about 6 more pounds to be considered normal weight. I hate trying to lose weight. I have such a strict diet as is with the diabetes plus I take insulin. If I lose two pounds in like 3 months I am beyond happy. I would have to starve myself to lose weight it seems. I exercise 3 times a week for an hour doing taebo. I wish I had more time but with a 2 and 3 year old its hard. I guess I will be technically overwieght forever. I am probably not going to live long anyways what with the complications that come with diabetes over time so I am just going to live my life.

[El Pinko]

55. If you're only 6 lbs over "normal" BMI and you look okay, it's probably not worth fretting about

Please don't starve for such an arbitrary goal. Stick with the exercise and healthy diabetes diet. A few pounds outside of healthy BMI alone is not a real health risk, IMO

Who knows how long you will live or what advances will be made with diabetes. At least you were able to have 2 children - and still only 6 lbs over - I'd say you're doing pretty good considering!

[Jennicut]

68. Thanks, I actually got the diabetes when I was pregnant with my second child

It just never went away after I had my daughter. I get a bit down about having it now and then. No one wants to be told at age 28 that they have a lifelong disease. My Mom says I'm way to hard on myself. I did have two children 12 1/2 months apart so I guess being only 6 pounds away from my goal weight is okay.

[eridani]

69. "Healthy" BMI is as much an idiocy as "healthy" height

Average in just about any human quality you want to measure is statistically associated with better health just about 100% of the time. That is because at least some deviations from average will have negative health consequences. It's strictly a matter of genetics.

7 footer Doug Adams died of heart disease, though he took care to be as active and fit as possible. The latter effort undoubtedly prolonged his life, but he basically couldn't do anything about lousy genetics.

[Rhansen]

72. What does looks have to do with it?

The whole obsession with weight/fitness is really irritating to me. It's like an excuse to discriminate. Fat people are still people and the last time I checked, being alive was still a fatal condition.
Have to add +1 on the BMI being bullshit. When I was in my 20's and early 30's I was 195# at 6'1" - overweight accd. to the BMI. Too bad I was only 11% bodyfat. Since when is that overweight? And no I am/was not a body builder though I did lift weights (among other things) for fitness reasons. The real body builders at the gym referred to me as a 'skinny guy'.

[El Pinko]

76. Don't confuse the look of health with fashion-mag beauty aesthetics.

By "look good" I mean as in Bette Midler or Oprah Winfrey good. Neither of them are skinny minnies but they look healthy and good for their body makeup.

I don't totally buy into the BMI as a standard measurement - it's just a rough guideline. People have to take a subjective and honest look at themselves, and decide for themselves if the weight they are at is healthy.

I think a lot of somewhat heavy people look great, healthy even sexy, but at some point, burly or zaftig turns to seriously obese, and that never looks healthy.

Personally, I committed myself to get to a weight that puts me at about 21 BMI and plant to maintain that permanently with a lower-calorie, high-nutrient diet - reason being primarily longevity and health.

But I see no reason why someone who is a few ticks outside of "healthy" BMI should be too worried about their weight.

People whose doctors have raised concerns about high BMI should get their body fat measured and confirm whether it's really a problem or not.

Nobody here has said that BMI is some hard-and-fast rule to follow. It's just an "early warning light" that may or may not indicate that there is a problem.



I agree that discrimination against fat people should stop, but I'm afraid it's going to be a long time before it does. Unlike race, etc., a lot of people still see overweight as some sort of moral failure or evidence of a character flaw.

I just recently got a new job with higher pay, and I'm almost CERTAIN that if I had interviewed for it the way I looked 3 years ago, I wouldn't have gotten it. People don't want to be around fat people - like they're afraid they'll catch it or something.

It's a complex issue. There is nothing I want more than for every overweight person to be able to feel as trim and healthy and mobile as I do now - to escape from that nightmare of discomfort, GERD, ill-fitting clothes, sweating when it's not hot, ankle pain, shortness of breath from minor exertion, and being looked at as a THING. But at the same time, I think the discrimination people are subjected to for being overweight is disgusting and wrong. I consider obesity to be a health condition - often the symptom of an eating disorder. Something that needs to be treated, not judged or condemned as a character flaw.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

116. Oprah has a thyroid problem & refuses to do a show about it.

She obviously has great difficulty losing weight and won't do a show about hypothyroidism. She has gotten many e-mails begging her to address the issue.

[El Pinko]

121. She probably should. But she also doesn't use it as an excuse to become morbidly obese.

It is sad, though, that few people with bad thyroids will ever have access to the chefs nutritionists and trainers she has.

It's also amazing how oblivious she is to poverty in America, considering how poor she started out.

It's like she thinks that what happened to her can happen to everyone.

The rich buy into this idea that "anyone can become rich".

Anyone can - if they're incredibly lucky, but everybody cannot even become middle class the way things are.

[flvegan]

56. No definition of "fit" nor "fat"

Also, any "fitness" study that tracks women via questionnaire for 11 years commencing at their age of 54 is going to skew results.

It is entirely possible to be overweight but also "fit". BMI, or Bullshit Mass Index, aside, this is proven by athletes every day, if one needs an example.

"Weight still matters" is true, for the most part. Mostly it matters in the big picture, and bodyfat percentage is really what should be looked at.

[eridani]

75. Well, when you have one study that is nothing but questionnaires--

--like what the OP cited, and many others from the Cooper Aerobics Institute that come to the opposite conclusion but actually physically measure weight, height and aerobic fitness over a defined period of time, who do you believe? Tough choice there.

[guardian]

58. Why threads on being fat all of a sudden??

[azmouse]

59. We're all gonna die some day no matter what our weight is.

I believe in getting on with life and making the most of the time we get.

I refuse to obsess over the fact that I'll never be a size 6 or 4 or whatever the current 'healthy, sexy' size is.

[eShirl]

81. fat people who exercise are still much better off than if they gave up exercising

so in that sense no, it's not nonsense

[Ellen Forradalom]

94. Let's try to resolve two seemingly-contradictory notions

Size acceptance and public health.

Obesity is a collective health problem, showing its effects across a population. Therefore we are right to be concerned about it as a public health issue. And we treat it as a public health issue: we identify environmental, economic and social factors that inadvertently contribute to it, and try to educate the public and change those conditions.

But statistics are meaningless for the individual. With regards to any one person, you do not have all the facts and are in no position to judge. You don't know if this person has thyroid problems or PCOS or takes a medication such as Zyprexa that leads to weight gain. You don't know who surrounds them, who might sabotage any effort they make, what other issues in their lives require their attention. That person may have no problems at all. He or she may be perfectly comfortable being the size they are, and it is not your business to say anything about it. It is the height of rudeness to suggest otherwise. If it bothers you that much, avert your eyes.

That is how I think of it, at any rate.

[Ellen Forradalom]

110. Wow, I am the the thread TERMINATOR!!!11!!

:-)

[VotesForWomen]

115. the idea that anyone cares about the health of fat people demonstrated to be nonsense.

[sakabatou]

118. What about sumo wrestlers?

[Zuiderelle]

122. Being 87% higher risk as a fit obese women is miles better than being 250% higher as an unfit one.

"Compared with normal-weight active women, the risk for developing heart disease was 54 percent higher in overweight active women and 87 percent higher in obese active women. By contrast, it was 88 percent higher in overweight inactive women; and 2 1/2 times greater in obese inactive women."

So how is it "nonsense" that one can be fat and fit? How about comparing the active obese women to normal-weight inactive women? Saying that it's nonsense takes away any incentive to get fit for those who have difficulty losing weight but want to be in better health by being more active. It's DEFINITELY better to be fit and fat than to not be fit at all.

I think this kind of reporting is destructive. Of COURSE weight matters, but fitness still matters a lot. Better to have one than neither.

[El Pinko]

130. It seems to me that the findings show a lot of risk in being obese, active or not.

An 87% higher risk of heart disease is NOT GOOD. Even if it is better to be fat and active than fat and sedentary, it's better to get the weight off too. With every year that goes by, and every pound gained, an obese person stands an increasing chance of becoming immobilized by the excess weight, at which time any benefits of being active would disappear.

[zanne]

135. Simply posting about this is judgmental.

And I don't think that's a "progressive" value.

[El Pinko]

136. Overweight and obesity really aren't moral/ethical issues

Overweight and obesity really aren't moral/ethical issues, except perhaps in that they are a burden on the health care system.

For the most part, overweight/obesity is a health problem that sometimes results from physical disorders, but much more commonly simply results from a long-term calorie surplus.

The OP details evidence that being active, while improving the health of overweight people, does not make them as healthy as people in a healthy weight range

It doesn't say that the overweight women were bad, good, smart, stupid, or anything OTHER than LESS HEALTHY than healthy-weight women.

It has been pointed out that this repost was based on a set of questionnaires, thus the study is not as valid as it would be had they actually physically examined groups of women. That is a fair criticism.

But yours doesn't even make sense. There's nothing "judgmental" about the OP at all.


Maybe it was my preface that I don't think that "enabling morbid obesity" is progressive that struck you as "judgmental".

Well, I suppose it is. If that's "judgmental", so be it. I think that people who would lie to the morbidly obese, telling them that they don't need to change their eating habits in terms of volume. They need only "eat healthy foods" and "exercise a bit more" are unconscionable terrible people who would doom others to early death and immobility because they tried a few crash/fad diets and regained weight. Portion/calorie control works when you stick to it permanently. Telling obese people that it won't work - that they are doomed to be so big that they can barely get out of bed - that is no different than buying smack for a heroin addict and helping him shoot up.

I will say this - I think that for an obese person, staying on the high-calorie regiment they are on is better than going on a fad/crash diet. Fad diets, crash diets, extremely low-calories diets are a recipe for disaster, and I would seriously warn anyone against trying for a quick fix. It took me over 2 years to get to my goal weight, and I was only 275 lbs. Bigger people could take considerably longer. I don't believe in putting thr body that's used to 4000 or 6000 calories a day through a sudden shock of a 1200 calorie liquid diet or whatever.

Clearly there are several NAAFA supporters in this thread. If you're overweight or obese, and want to find out how to continue to get gradually larger and larger until you are bedridden, you can visit www.naafa.org and there is all kinds of propaganda promoting such a way of life there.

If you are interested in regaining your health, your mobility, your energy, and fitting into clothes you haven't worn in years, http://caloriecount.about.com/community is a great online community of people who, for the most part, are losing or maintaining excess weight through healthy diet and exercise, and promotion crash diets and ED behavior are strongly discouraged there. Please come by, as it is a great resource.

[zanne]

139. We've been down that road with smoking; now obesity...

What's next? Eating meat? That post was judgemental because it carried with it a preaching mentality. I expect that medical advice from my doctor, not some poster on DU.

[El Pinko]

145. Than call me a crock, know-nothing layperson, not "judgmental".

At least then you'd be kinda right. I'm sure as hell no doctor or nutritionist and anything I say should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Faygo Kid]

146. Interesting discussion.

Hit 45, and it starts to get tough. I did high impact aerobics 4-5 times a week until I was 46, when tremendous life changes happened. Until then, I was thin. Without the exercise, I ballooned, and have been heavy for 10 years. Thanks in great part to the aerobics advancing degenerative arthritis, I have had both hips replaced. So my aerobics days are over.

Quit smoking five years ago (smoked and did aerobics!) and this is the year pounds come off. SENSIBLY, and I'm setting no end goal. Five pounds at a time. I'm eliminating snacks, limiting myself to soups for lunch (nutritious and filling), and walking more.

Anyway, this discussion is fascinating.

[El Pinko]

149. That happened to me in my early-mid-30s...

I stayed fairly trim through my 20s by exercising a lot. After my kids were born, work got busier, I had to help around the house, and suddenly couldn't exercise as much.

Then financial problems and mid-life depression set in to boot. I sought solace in beer and nachos on the weekends and before I knew it, I had gained 80 lbs.

I simply did not have the sime to spend more than 30 min. per day exercising, so I realized that the only way I was going to get my body, my health, my cholesterol and tricglycerides turned around was to make a serious, permanent change to my eating habits.

I quit smoking about 6 years ago, too, BTW.

Kudos to you on your progress. Slow is the way to go. Took me a couple years. But I'm not done yet. Maintenance will be for the rest of my life. :)

[pitohui]

151. people aren't honest about what exercising does to the joints

my knees have to last me my entire life and i have to respect them as such, since my hobbies include hiking and being outdoors -- screwing up my joints in pursuit of vanity will mess with my ability to do what i actually want to do

i am well aware that my weight is not a reflection of my moral superiority but of genetic good fortune -- people who are heavier may actually have more endurance and be more technically "fit" for the hiking, esp. at altitude

so i don't think "fat but fit" is all nonsense, i think for some people it comes down to making sensible choices, you are not going to be "fit" if you keep putting stress on your joints and working thru the pain, i have seen an occasional poster leave such comments that lead me to believe he has exercise bulimia and is on the path to permanent injury to his joints since he won't allow himself to recover from injuries -- you see, while recovering from injury he might put on a few pounds and become "fat"

what does "fat" mean anyway? there is a difference between pleasingly plump, and these women may actually be fitter than i am for endurance exercise such as hiking, and morbidly obese, which probably reflects a health issue beyond the person's control and no use scolding them anyway

i can't think of a circumstance in which scolding people for being fat is all that helpful to anyone

[FarCenter]

152. We all eat too much

A 180 pound, 5' 10" male, age 50 would have a Basal Metabolic Rate of about 1700 Calories per day, and an actual metabolic rate of between 2000 and 3200 Calories per day, for a sedentary and very active lifestyle respectively.

A 130 pound, 5' 6" female, age 50 would have a Basal Metabolic Rate of about 1200 Calories per day, and an actual metabolic rate of between 1500 and 2400 Calories per day, for a sedentary and very active lifestyle respectively.

There are plenty of calculators on the web. Plug in your actual height and age, and your target weight, and then adjust your caloric intake to the sedentary lifestye value until you achieve your target weight.

[spooky3]

154. Advertising is a leading influence on overeating

Corporations spend millions to get us to eat big portions and eat frequently, all day long. They do extensive research to find out what is most likely to influence people, and if these ads didn't produce more sales, you'd better believe the corporations wouldn't spend so much $$ on them. I'm not saying the other factors people have talked about here aren't important; I am just adding to the list.