Aspen attorney challenges legality of search warrants, polygamist raid

[madmusic]

“Moreover, prior to executing the initial warrant, (Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran) was advised that Dale Barlow was in Arizona and not on the premises sought to be searched. In fact, prior to entering the premises Sheriff Doran actually spoke to Dale Barlow in Arizona by cell phone, confirming his driver license number and the fact that he was in Arizona.”

Barlow advised the sheriff that he did not know Sarah Jessop, he had not been to Texas in over 20 years, nor had he ever been to Yearning For Zion Ranch, according to the filing. Thus, Goldstein argues, law enforcement had been advised and verified that the only person suspected of posing an immediate risk to children was not located at the polygamist compound.

The later discovery that the reported abuse may have been the invention of a woman in Colorado Springs with a history of making similar false reports weakens the integrity of the Yearning For Zion Ranch raid, the legal filing states.

“The veracity of the factual underpinnings for any probable cause in support of (one of the search warrants) is further undermined by the revelation that the telephones utilized by the alleged sexually abused, pregnant, 16-year-old mother, claiming to be Sarah Jessop to the New Bridge Family Shelter ‘Crisis Hotline’ in San Angelo, Texas, have been traced back to a 33-year-old childless, African American woman in Colorado Springs, Colorado,” Goldstein states.

http://www.aspendailynews.com/section/home/breaking-news-aspen--0

[High Plains]

1. This guy is big time, a past president of the NACDL.

"Goldstein, 64, is an Aspen resident whose law practice is based in San Antonio, Texas. He has represented many high-profile clients, including Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega and outlaw journalist Hunter S. Thompson, and is a past president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers."

Oh, the motions are flying! This raid is going to occupy Texas courts for years.

[madmusic]

2. How's this?

As detailed earlier in this report, children who are removed from their mothers also have a tendency to become ill, and even to die. Likewise, according to Harden (2004) "Many studies have pointed to the deleterious impact of foster care on children's physical health, cognitive and academic functioning, and social-emotional wellbeing. In the area of physical health, pediatric and public health scholars have documented that foster children have a higher level of morbidity throughout childhood than do children not involved in the foster care system."

Likewise, according to the NSCAW, a significant proportion of children placed in Foster Care, suffer from compromised cognitive, intellectual, and academic functioning (National survey of child and adolescent well-being NSCAW, 2001). Specifically, the NSCAW found that over 1/3 of infants and toddlers and 1/2 of pre-school age children scored in the delayed range of development. Similar findings have been presented by other scientists (Konekamp & Ehrle, 2002, Pears & Fisher, 2005; Swayer & Dubowitz, 1994).

Children placed in Foster Care have higher rates of depression, abnormal social skills, are more impulsive, become more aggressive, and are more insecurely attached and have insecure and disordered attachment behaviors (Clausen et al., 1998; Stein et al., 1996).

Children placed in Foster Care do more poorly than children who are left in high-risk homes where parents are neglectful or abusive (Lawrence et al. 2006) Likewise, behavior problems are worse as compared to those raised by maltreating care givers(Lawrence et al. 2006). Likewise, according to a NSCAW (2003) study, children placed in Foster Care show more compromised social-emotional functioning than children raised in a high risk environment. However, in this case, Angela was not being abused or neglected by her parents. In this regard, and given these findings and the research reviewed above it is thus clear that Angela developed these problems precisely because was placed in foster care.

http://brainmind.com/FosterCareInfancyChildhood.html

[madmusic]

3. More for the children

In states from California to New York, and in counties and cities from Santa Clara County and San Jose, to New York City and Maryland, it has been reported that over 20% of children placed in Foster Care are sexually and physically abused or suffer from profound neglect while in Foster Care

In a Maryland study, substantiated allegations of sexual abuse have been reported to be four times higher than found among the general population (Mary I. Benedict and Susan Zuravin, Factors Associated With Child Maltreatment By Family Foster Care Providers (Baltimore: John Hopkins University School of Hygiene and Public Health, 1992).

Likewise, in a study conducted by the National Foster Care Education Project (1986) and the American Civil Liberties Union's Children's Rights Project (1993) it was found that Foster Children are 10 times more likely to be abused than children from the general population (Farber, 1993; Maier, 1997).

http://brainmind.com/FosterCareInfancyChildhood.html

[madmusic]

5. Hey, CPS apologists, this is what CPS did

They let all these fine loving families (yes, there are some, but we're talking about the 20% above) they let them know the children "http://www.keyetv.com/mostpopular/story.aspx?content_id=b47ec963-a843-43d3-bbf3-f9746fe56fab">are socialized to believe that sexual activity with adults is positive."

Have fun and the state will even pay you!

[madmusic]

14. nine of the sect's children have been hospitalized

Sick children: CPS confirmed that nine of the sect's children have been hospitalized while in the state's care and six are currently in a hospital. The ailments have included dehydration, ear infections and respiratory problems.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/DN-polygamistbox_29tex.ART.State.Edition1.46587af.html

[uppityperson]

22. You'd rather have sick kids not be hospitalized?

I am sure you have read that there was a chickenpox outbreak also.

Just to save time, I'll say it for you. Bad CPS, giving them chickenpox infected blankets.

[Gormy Cuss]

28. Harden, the author whose findings are cited here I would assume refers to Brenda Jones Harden

Reading her report there is considerable caveats on using outcome data as an indictment of foster care per se because there has been very little study of the effect of pre-placement experiences on the eventual outcomes of children in foster care. I don't have the time to trace back the other citations but I suspect that there is a highly selective use of statistics at your linked site.

As for the NSCAW, see link for a summary description of the pre-placement situations of children in foster care and some discussion of how that influences well being in foster care.

There are problems with foster care - there's no denying that but foster care is sometimes a better solution than leaving a child neglected in an unsafe home.

[madmusic]

34. "sometimes a better solution than leaving a child neglected in an unsafe home. "

Agreed, and no one doubts that that I'm aware of. The only question is if each child and each parent had a fair hearing. True, they will all have individual hearings by June 5th, but it may be too late for some of them and that is tragic if they were not in any danger. Do you know of any studies that found foster care harmless?

In Texas compound case, 4 questions need answers

* Did Texas have any option short of taking the children from their families for weeks? This is the largest child custody case in Texas and U.S. history, and the seizure of so many children is both extreme and extraordinary. Authorities said they raided the compound — belonging to an isolationist group called the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), which is known to practice polygamy — after a call to a domestic abuse hotline from a 16-year-old seeking help. The caller wasn't found, but child welfare officials said they saw several teenage girls who were pregnant or with young children. That prompted them to remove all the children.

But whether all were in danger isn't clear. The case is strong for adolescent girls, those at the highest risk of sexual or physical abuse. The FLDS, according to research by the attorneys general of Utah and Arizona and others, marries such girls to older men and encourages multiple wives as a way to heaven.

The justification is shakier for taking adolescent boys and prepubescent children away from their families. At the initial hearing last week, child welfare officials asserted that adolescent FLDS boys were being groomed as sexual predators. The boys are also at high risk of being banished from the group for minor infractions, giving older men more opportunity to have more wives.

Even so, the question has to be whether these practices are either illegal or so harmful they warranted abrupt, traumatic removal. Other courts have decided, for example, that even if parents encourage the use of marijuana, that is not grounds to remove children unless they help them buy the drug.

As for younger children, the widely applied standard in family law is to remove only those who appear to be in imminent danger. Testifying for the state at the initial hearing, child psychiatrist Bruce Perry said that in many ways, the environment at the ranch is healthy and the mothers loving, though "part of what they do is very destructive."

* Did the state infringe on the group's right to practice its religion? FLDS members have invited fear and suspicion by cutting themselves off from society. It is likely that the sect built its isolated West Texas compound in 2004 to avoid outside interference. In recent days, FLDS mothers have appeared on TV wearing prairie dresses and old-fashioned hairdos. Different, yes, but the Constitution protects religious freedom, as long as it's practiced legally.

* Did anyone inside the compound violate statutory rape, child molestation or other laws? Whatever the group's beliefs, the age of consent in Texas is 17, and the age of marriage with parental consent is 16. On TV, at least one FLDS man said he did not know Texas law prohibited sex with adolescent girls. If the law has been violated, the girls should be protected and offenders prosecuted.

* What is in the best interest of each child? What's right for one child might not be right for all 437. Appropriately, a judge has ordered that the case of each child be heard by June 5. DNA tests are being conducted to sort out tangled families. In the meantime, the emotional toll on the parents is evident. How the children are faring can only be guessed. They are being transferred to temporary foster care after being held in a coliseum in the town of San Angelo.

Texas appears to have made an admirable attempt to treat the children well despite the difficulty of coping with so many. But like other states, its foster care system is riddled with problems and, even if it weren't, it would be unsuitable for these circumstances.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20080424/cm_usatoday/intexascompoundcase4questionsneedanswers

[madmusic]

4. The ACLU too

Issues are colliding, ACLU says

The April 3 raid on a Fundamentalist LDS Church compound near Eldorado, Texas, has the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas deep in thought.

"There's an awful lot of issues clawing at each other," said ACLU executive director Terri Burke on Tuesday after spending the entire day in meetings with her staff trying to come up with an official statement. "I will say this, though: This situation really points up how very, very difficult these kinds of issues are, how complex it is."

Those competing issues include the need to protect children from abuse, protect the relationship of parents and children, and protect everyone's constitutional rights, including freedom of religious expression and due process. "Those issues are just colliding."

"We think that except in the face of imminent danger, to breach that relationship (between parents and children), it must be for very good and solid reasons, and there must be good, solid facts. And, again, we don't have those facts," she said.

The staff actually came up with a three-page statement about the situation, and then "we reread it and decided it was arrogant. Because everything we know, we know from newspapers." Her staff will continue to research the situation, she said.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,5143,695270768,00.html

Arrogant. Based on the news? Now, what does that sound like?

[seabeyond]

8. because waterboarding babies is so much more humane. bet you argue no waterboarding

for terrorist, yet babies seems to be o.k.

[madmusic]

9. Bet you would be fine with waterboarding the FLDS

There is NO evidence, or even any accusation, ANYONE at Texas was waterboarding or physically abusing any of the children.

But you would be willing to waterboard them because them terrorists hate our freedoms. So git rid of the freedoms!

[seabeyond]

13. no, i would not be willing to waterboard flds. i believe there is evidence.

i dont believe you will be convinced until it is in court, in face and probably by then you will turn back on it and pretend you did not support this. i do not believe religious rights proceed our laws and individual right to protection and safety. i believe those children have a right to be protected. parents should be the ones protecting them, but as we see in life, many times parents fail and so it is our responsibility to do it in place of parent.

but i believe you will refuse to see.... continually, because you dont want to. you refuse.

i will wait for a court of law to pass judgment. but i know there is more than enough evidence of wrong doing to initiate an investigation. that is where they are now. and already have found laws broken. and i believe they will continue to find more. then i expect for it to go to court and members of flds to get their day in court. then i demand they get their punishment for laws broken.

if to you that is being anti constitution or american or anything else, .... so be it.

but still.... you refuse to see the pain, torture, rape, abuse of children in your defense of old men fucking with the weakest amongst us.

[madmusic]

18. Where here do I say "religious rights proceed our laws"?

I don't of course, but it can be effective to try to put words in my mouth. I'm talking about parental Constitutional right, and children's Constitutional rights. And, if those practicing FLDS did not break any laws, their rights as well. You won't wait for a court of law to pass judgment because you already passed judgment. Maybe you're right, but even the guilty have due process rights. If the courts rule their rights were not violated, so be it. But CPS is not some perfect savior and it needs fixed itself. To say that children who were not in immanent danger are safer in foster care is not only ridiculous, it is likely contributing to severe abuse. To violate constitutional rights with the intent to put children not immediate danger into a dangerous foster care situation is not only wrong for both reasons, it should be loudly condemned. What is surprising is that so few here are willing to do so.

'If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more likely to die in our state's foster care system.

'Based on Fiscal 2004 data provided by the Health and Human Services Commission, about 100 children received treatment for poisoning from medications; 63 foster children received medical treatment for rape that occurred while in the foster care system; and 142 children gave birth while in the state foster care system.
'As alarming as these cases are, we can only imagine how much worse the Fiscal 2005 data is because Gov. Perry's Health and Human Services Commission has refused to provide the data needed to complete my investigation.

'When I called on Gov. Perry in October 2004 to create a Crisis Management Team, I said the crisis was minute-by-minute and child-by-child.
'In Fiscal 2004, four-year old twin boys living in the same foster home received medical treatment in the hospital for rape.
'A five-year old boy in the same foster home received medical treatment in the hospital for rape two days later.
'A 15-year old girl who was not pregnant when she entered our state's foster care system in May 2002 gave birth in February 2004.

http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html

Do you really want this kind of failure to trump the constitution and due process?

[Richard Steele]

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*Offer void where decent human beings care about the welfare of children.

[madmusic]

11. Brought to by CPS*

Trust and love your government to abuse children properly.

*http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7079/full/439891a.html">We attack science with silly ads because it works!

[LanternWaste]

16. or...

"Trust and love your secret cult to abuse children properly."

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Wow-- so what's your direct experience been with TX CPS? I've worked for them, so there's mine.

So really, what's your experience with CPS beyond your now-predictable message board attacks?

Bueller? Bueller...?

[madmusic]

20. You brag?

'If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more likely to die in our state's foster care system.

'Based on Fiscal 2004 data provided by the Health and Human Services Commission, about 100 children received treatment for poisoning from medications; 63 foster children received medical treatment for rape that occurred while in the foster care system; and 142 children gave birth while in the state foster care system.
'As alarming as these cases are, we can only imagine how much worse the Fiscal 2005 data is because Gov. Perry's Health and Human Services Commission has refused to provide the data needed to complete my investigation.

'When I called on Gov. Perry in October 2004 to create a Crisis Management Team, I said the crisis was minute-by-minute and child-by-child.
'In Fiscal 2004, four-year old twin boys living in the same foster home received medical treatment in the hospital for rape.
'A five-year old boy in the same foster home received medical treatment in the hospital for rape two days later.
'A 15-year old girl who was not pregnant when she entered our state's foster care system in May 2002 gave birth in February 2004.

http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html

[Marrah_G]

21. Doing backflips to defend these men who enslave women and children again I see

You truly are a piece of work. I completely wiped my ignore list a while back, but time to put you on it.

You are fortunate that you were not female and born into that cult, otherwise you would never have the chance to even voice an opinion as you can here. No education, no hopes, no dreams, not even the basic knowledge that they have rights.

Those girls are taught from the moment they are born that they have nothing to look forward to in life but being given to some strange man to be his servant for the rest of their lives. And if that man dies or is kicked out they can expect to be given to another one who will most likely marry their daughters also. They can be beaten, raped, drugged and do not even understand that they have the right, the LEGAL right to not be subjected to that.

These things have been well documented by the women who have escaped from this cult. Please do some research take a look at the information posted on this board, the links, the suggested reading, and then come back here and defend the life that these women are condemned to simply because they were female and born to these people.

This is not about religion. It is about slavery and oppression. It is about violence and control.

This is America and all women born in America have the right to education, freedom and to choose their own path in life. They get the legal right to choose whom gets to put something inside their bodies. They have the legal right to walk away with their children, in the middle of the day, anytime they want. These women are denied these rights or even the knowledge of these rights.

Continue defending them while on some libertarian quest to defend "religion", I could care less, but also take a few minutes and appreciate the fact that you were born free.

[madmusic]

26. Good

"You truly are a piece of work. I completely wiped my ignore list a while back, but time to put you on it. "

Thank you.

I don't give a fuck of they are serial killers. They still have due process rights. For that matter, if one of them were a serial killer, that doesn't take the rights from all the rest of them.

[LanternWaste]

25. No bragging. Just six of one and half a dozen of the other...

No bragging. Just six of one and half a dozen of the other...


'cause we all know the state can do no good to those with fists in the air and head in the sand...
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:




Wow... multiple (not one broken bone-- multiple) broken bones reported to have happened over 12% of the children-- and that's just at this point. Wonder what the rest of the medical examinations will reveal.


CPS must have gone back in time and broke the kids bones to better make their case, right...

Hoo-boy-- you're digging deeper and deeper and deeper.... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[girl gone mad]

7. So?

The initial warrant doesn't matter at this point.

[madmusic]

10. Translation

The Constitution doesn't matter at this point.

Throw them in Gitmo!

[uppityperson]

23. Oh bullshit. You continue to confuse what CPS can do and how Law enforcement must act.

CPS is obligated to investigate when they get a report of abuse. They do not need the same legal things law enforcement does. If you don't like that fact, perhaps a better use of your energies might be to contact them, or to contact your congresspeople (state and or fed) to change the law.

[madmusic]

24. Don't get so hysterical

Where, anywhere, did I argue CPS is not obligated to investigate when they get a report of abuse? Goldstein doesn't even argue that. No one does and I've never seen one post here or anywhere that argues that.

We have a constitution that protects due process rights. If you don't like that fact, push for amendment. Far better to do that than sneaky runarounds the constitution. At least then we could debate if we want to go there or not.

[uppityperson]

29. Hysterical? Advice is hysterical? bwahahahahahaha you slay me

Naw, I'd say these little tidbits are more along the line of hysterical:

"The Constitution doesn't matter at this point. Throw them in Gitmo!"
"Trust and love your government to abuse children properly."
"children who are removed from their mothers also have a tendency to become ill, and even to die."
"F U"
"Hey, CPS apologists, this is what CPS did"
"Arrogant. Based on the news? Now, what does that sound like?"
" Bet you would be fine with waterboarding the FLDS"
"Where here do I say "religious rights proceed our laws"?I don't of course, but it can be effective to try to put words in my mouth."

If you are going to claim "hysteria", at least do it at the right poster.

[Bunny]

32. Poor dear, I think you need some rest. Why don't you lie down, and I'll bring you a

nice cup of tea. You'll be feeling like yourself in no time!

[madmusic]

33. Thank you

Excellent tea. Now the trees outside seem to be blowing in the wind, though there is no wind. And they are all kinds of pretty colors.

And the walls move.

And I can't stop laughing.

You could sell that stuff.

[madmusic]

12. Minor or not?

Jeffs is one of 26 women CPS says is a minor - although a court document prepared by a state investigator lists her as 18. Attorney Rod Parker, an FLDS spokesman, also said Jeffs is 18.

"Her husband is 22 and they are a monogamous couple," Parker said, noting the father "is being deprived of the opportunity to spend those first special moments with his son on a basis that makes no common sense. Infant babies are not going to be indoctrinated."

The couple also have a 16-month-old son, who is being held at The Children's Shelter in Austin.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9103069

[madmusic]

15. No hearing today: (yesterday)

A hearing by the 3rd Court of Appeals that had been scheduled for today has been canceled. Appellate judges gave the state until Friday to respond to a claim by 48 mothers that there wasn't enough evidence for state District Judge Barbara Walther to rule April 18 that the children should remain in state care.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/DN-polygamistbox_29tex.ART.State.Edition1.46587af.html

[EOTE]

17. You are defending some sick, sick, sick, twisted shit.

There is PLENTY of evidence of inbreeding, statutory rape, physical and mental abuse. More stuff comes out every day and you can only manage to warrant sympathy for child fuckers? Are you alright in your head? And the best you can come up with is how terrible it is that CPS is saying that these kids are being taught to think that sex with adults is ok? That's what they're being taught! That's why you've got so many pregnant kids here. What the hell would prompt someone to defend this shit? You're giving us all a bad name.

[madmusic]

19. The ACLU too

Issues are colliding, ACLU says

The April 3 raid on a Fundamentalist LDS Church compound near Eldorado, Texas, has the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas deep in thought.

"There's an awful lot of issues clawing at each other," said ACLU executive director Terri Burke on Tuesday after spending the entire day in meetings with her staff trying to come up with an official statement. "I will say this, though: This situation really points up how very, very difficult these kinds of issues are, how complex it is."

Those competing issues include the need to protect children from abuse, protect the relationship of parents and children, and protect everyone's constitutional rights, including freedom of religious expression and due process. "Those issues are just colliding."

"We think that except in the face of imminent danger, to breach that relationship (between parents and children), it must be for very good and solid reasons, and there must be good, solid facts. And, again, we don't have those facts," she said.

The staff actually came up with a three-page statement about the situation, and then "we reread it and decided it was arrogant. Because everything we know, we know from newspapers." Her staff will continue to research the situation, she said.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,5143,695270768,00.html

Arrogant. Based on the news? Now, what does that sound like?

You.

[EOTE]

27. Well, then that makes it all better.

If the ACLU is for child fucking, then I guess I should be too.

[Gormy Cuss]

30. Except the ACLU isn't endorsing that.

The ACLU of Texas is simply trying to watch for violations of other rights in the process of trying to protect children.

[madmusic]

31. That's too complicated

Nowhere in http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d080.htm">this long definition of due process does it mention "child fucking," but for some reason it is easy the confuse the two.

I think this is very dangerous thinking and am surprised more don't speak out against it.