Don't let the dresses fool you. The FLDS wives aren't Caroline Ingalls, they're

[pnwmom]

Nurse Ratchett with munchkin voices.

And that's why they're a risk not only for the preteen and older girls, but for all the children in the cult.

"Keeping sweet" for those women -- despite the abuse they have faced by their parents and spouses -- means a lifetime of accumulated anger gets turned inside. All those pastel layers on top cover up the blackness within. But sometimes they do need to vent. And where is the only safe target? The children -- especially, the children of other mothers.

Normal, healthy human children cry. They make noise. They laugh. All of these things must be trained out of them, according to Warren Jeffs. How do you think the mothers do this? How do you think one of these oh-so-brittle mothers copes with a two year old having a tantrum?

They're not allowed to hug their children, or to kiss them -- because it is forbidden to show anyone more affection than Warren Jeffs. But scaring them with stories about the end of the world and the hell that awaits unbelievers -- that's fine. And beating them is fine, too. Even baby water boarding. Anything is fine that makes them "sweet."

Even if these mothers themselves are "sweet" 95% of the time, that other 5% is plenty to terrify the children. Actually, the unpredictability and inconsistency of the mother's behavior makes it even harder. If the mothers were ALWAYS monsters, the children would be better able to protect themselves. As it is, they never know when one of their mothers is going to metamorphize -- or who is going to be the next victim.

I'm not saying I don't have sympathy for these women. They are broken, twisted people, and I am very sorry to see what has happened to them. The men like Warren Jeffs are the truly evil ones. But, with regard to the children, these broken mothers are not benign. And even the youngest children are at risk.

[Adsos Letter]

1. I will admit to not having followed this story...

~snip~ "But sometimes they do need to vent. And where is the only safe target? The children -- especially, the children of other mothers." ~snip~

Is this something that is coming out as fact in the investigation?

[pnwmom]

3. This is something that has been testified to by many ex cult members,

including Carolyn Jessop, the former wife of Merril Jessop, who is the head of the YFZ ranch. She has written and spoken about the frequency with which the sister-wives take out their anger against each other on each other's children. Merril Jessop also would punish children in order to punish the mother of those children.

[Adsos Letter]

6. well then...

sounds like a classic case of torture-technique to me...punishing a child in front of their parent.

[pnwmom]

9. Here's more, from Carolyn Jessop. Brace yourself.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24009286/

SNIP

“The method he would use with infants was a form of water torture,” Jessop said of her former husband. “He would spank the baby until it was screaming out of control, and then he would hold the baby faceup under a tap of running water so it couldn’t breathe. He would do this repeatedly. Sometimes, it would go on for an hour, until the baby was so exhausted it couldn’t cry anymore. This method he called ‘breaking them.’”

To a child, the abuse becomes normal, she said, and resistance becomes unthinkable to most. “With this level of mind control, it’s something you’re born into and it’s generational. The babies born into this, they don’t stand a chance from the beginning,” she said.

What prompted her to leave was what she saw as a threat to her daughter.

“It was getting worse every year,” she said of the level of control and abuse. “That’s one of the things for me where I felt so urgent to get out was that my daughter was turning 14, and Warren was resetting the marrying age at that point to 14. This was in 2003.”

She said her husband controlled his wives through their children. “The way he controlled me was by being violent to my children,” she told Lauer. “If I did something that he didn’t like, my children paid, and they paid a big price. He would hurt them. If he would have been hurting me, I probably would not have conformed. But when you go after a woman’s child, that’s one thing that will put a woman on her knees quickly.”

SNIP

[OzarkDem]

12. Horrific, it makes me sick

I hope they lock this guy up for a very, very long time, along with the women who allowed it to happen.

[kestrel91316]

17. This week TX authorities reported that there was an unusually

high number of "very young" FLDS children with evidence of prior broken bones. One would presume these are not your average rowdy-kid-falls-while-playing injuries seen in your average 10-yr-old.

[pnwmom]

26. And these might be only the tip of the iceberg, since they were

based on what parents told them or things doctors observed -- not x-rays.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. I'm so glad Texas had the courage to go in there

and rescue the kids. You know that none of them had ever seen crayons before? Now we know that they have never known open affection, the most natural of human traits. Personally, I hope the state proves the abuse, places all the kids in loving homes, and that somehow the women of this cult are able to get counseling.

[pnwmom]

4. Unfortunately, Texas is only the tip of the iceberg for these people.

Estimates of the membership in FLDS is in the tens of thousands.

[shrdlu]

5. Is this all speculation or....

...do you have some background, some authority for these statements?

[pnwmom]

7. Nothing I've said is rocket science or requires a knowledge of anything

beyond basic psychology.

The beliefs of the cult are well known -- they have been testified to in court by former cult members. Warren Jeffs requires children to be "silent" and the mothers to be "sweet." The women in this cult are bullied by the men. When someone is bullied and can't fight back, when she has to stay "sweet," she turns the anger inside. Her only safe target would be the children.

Virtually anyone who watched the women (always in groups of threes) speak on TV was struck by the eerie, robotic quality of their strangely (and uniformly) high-pitched, breathless voices. These women have been broken. And yet they were obviously considered by the men of the FLDS to be the most presentable representatives of the sect. Imagine what the rest of the women are like.

[Rosemary2205]

10. I do (have background) and the OP is spot on.

I spent a good 25 years as an emergency foster parent and have more than a little experience with women and children rescued from cults and other generationally abusive situations. The OP is absolutely spot on from what I've seen.

[pnwmom]

15. 25 years as an emergency foster parent? Rosemary, you deserve

thanks from all of us.


:hug:

[Rosemary2205]

85. I miss it.

Never had kids of my own. Now my life is too challenging to have what it takes for those kids. I still volunteer but I can no longer take kids into my home. I really miss it. I think it's like nursing or the peace corps - it's a calling and once it's in your blood you can't help yourself.

[NNN0LHI]

70. I admire you for your work as an emergency foster parent

I wish there were more like you.

I sincerely mean that.

Don

[sudopod]

80. You are a REAL American hero. nt

[OzarkDem]

14. Read Jon Krakauer's book "Under the Banner of Heaven"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385509510

I'll admit, I started reading it about a year ago, but had to put it down about 2/3's of the way through.

[dhill926]

20. a very disturbing book....

and the Mormon church wields a LOT of power....

[kestrel91316]

18. It's all been reported in the news and is factual.

Do you live in a cave?

[CatWoman]

8. and has anyone else noticed that they have "Reagan" hair?

:hi:

[1776Forever]

11. Another issue is this - Doctor: Birth defects increase in inbred polygamy community

By The Associated Press

http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2006/02/11/news/regional/3febf6025f9af8d6872571100061927e.txt

Thursday, February 9, 2006 12:06 PM MST

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- A rare, severe birth defect is on the rise in an inbred polygamous community on the Utah-Arizona border, according to a doctor who has treated many of the children.

Intermarriage among close relatives is producing children who have two copies of a recessive gene for a debilitating condition called fumarase deficiency. The enzyme irregularity causes severe mental retardation, epileptic seizures and other effects that often leaves children unable to take care of themselves.

Dr. Theodore Tarby has treated many of the children at clinics in Arizona under contracts with the state. All are retarded, the neurologist told Salt Lake City television station KSL-TV.
"Ninety percent of the community is related to one side or the other," said Bistline, a former member of the sect, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

"They claim to be the chosen people, the chosen few," Bistline said. "And their claim is they marry closely to preserve the royal bloodline, so to speak."

Isaac Wyler, also a former follower of the church led by fugitive Warren Jeffs, told KSL that he was related by marriage to some of the victims.

"I've seen some children that can talk and communicate a little," Wyler said. "And I've seen others that are totally laid out. They have no movement. They can't do anything by themselves. Literally, if they're 8 years old, it's like taking care of a baby."

Tarby saw the first child with the deficiency in the community 15 years ago. He said the oldest victim is now about 20.

In March 2000, Tarby co-authored an article in the medical journal "Annals of Neurology" describing eight cases of fumarase deficiency. It has now grown to 20 known cases in the community.

Tarby said the victims require and receive constant care from parents and close relatives.

"They would just assume they've been given a test and they need to pass this test," Wyler said. "And it's their lot in life to take care of a child like this. And they'll give it everything they've got. And they'll do a good job."

In the FLDS community, marriages with cousins and other relatives are common, Bistline said.

It's believed that more than half the residents carry the recessive gene. That means the number of cases likely will grow. Tarby said there could be hundreds of victims in coming generations.

Tarby said he urges residents to undergo genetic screening before marriage, but is largely ignored.

He said medical care for the children is frequently borne by taxpayers.

[pnwmom]

13. You're right -- that's a big issue.

Somewhere I read that, not long ago, there were only 20 cases of this disease known in the entire world. So this cult, with its inbreeding, could turn this disease into a much bigger problem than it ever would have been.

[1776Forever]

16. The sad thing is some of these parents don't even know about this illness.

The have been duped by Jeffs and other elders I read! Such a tragedy all the way around!

[kestrel91316]

19. There is also persistent unsettling talk about how the severely

defective infants are dealt with.

Let's just say it results in more graves in "Babyland".........

[jwirr]

27. Not to defend this pack of jackals but many children with severe

birth defects are stillborn or only live a short time.

[kestrel91316]

45. Word from witnesses is that they drowned the deformed babies.

[pnwmom]

54. I didn't hear that, but I can't say I'm surprised. n/t

[jwirr]

58. I know and I believe it but I was just pointing out the natural high

mortality rate for severely disabled babies.

[kestrel91316]

86. Yeah. And given the lack of supervised perinatal care,

they have got to have a high infant mortality rate even without drowning them. BTW, I wonder if more of their boys "die" at birth than their girls........if you get my drift......I mean, why raise them up for 15 years when it's easier to just knock them on the head and be done with them.

[jwirr]

28. Not to defend this pack of jackals but many children with severe

birth defects are stillborn or only live a short time.

[smoogatz]

21. It's your basic patriarchal cult.

Cut from pretty much the same sorry cloth as the Branch Davidians, the Jonestownians, the mothership idiots, the Moonies and the Wahabbis, among many others. The end is near, so I get to have a harem and you get to be in it and shut the fuck up. One feels terrible for the victims, but it's also true that you can't overstate the capacity of human beings to declare their blind and impassioned allegiance to the authors of monstrous and, in a sane world, laughable ideas.

[Exultant Democracy]

22. Same reason catholics continued to take their children to Church and leave them with priests

for generations and generations.

[smoogatz]

24. Sort of.

Although the rampant buggering of children by priests isn't exactly written into church doctrine: it's more a side effect of poor recruiting and lax supervision, IMO.

[Exultant Democracy]

31. Whatever a bunch of creeps used make believe to molest the crap out of a lot of kids

same creeps just a different religion.

[pnwmom]

33. Two major differences:

1) The pervasiveness. Almost all of the FLDS men participated in polygamy and underage marriage. Very few Catholic priests turned out to be involved in child sex abuse.
2) Theology. The FLDS church was built on the concept of polygamy and underage marriage. Catholic theology never supported child sex abuse.

[Exultant Democracy]

35. The theology protected the priest, and the cover up was massive

shoot some priests ran orphanages with more kids. I think the differences are minor since the end result is the same and that is the most serious issue.

[pnwmom]

37. The theology didn't cover up the priest. Do you know what theology is?

Certain stupid, wrong-headed bishops covered up the actions of the priests. But they never had any backing in Catholic religious doctrine.

And the end result is not the same, because lay Catholics have been working hard to end the problem, once it was brought to our attention. The FLDS just want to be left alone to continue their "spiritual marriages."

[Exultant Democracy]

42. Your theology set up a patriarchal system with an elite cast possessing special powers

that they used to be in a position where 1. tens of thousands of them molested children for centuries and 2. even more of them used their positions of power to cover it up.

[pnwmom]

44. The percent of offenders in the Catholic church has never been shown to

be higher than in the general population. There are pedophiles everywhere. The grievous error in the Catholic church was the cover-up.

And the theology, unlike that of the FLDSers, didn't include ritual sex abuse.

[Exultant Democracy]

47. Yes it has the catholic leauge would have you belive otherwise and the general population

aren't members of an elect caste with a almost unlimited supply of children and opportunity.

[pnwmom]

48. You're writing gibberish at this point. Forget it. n/t

[Exultant Democracy]

51. Your the catholic that didn't think their were many catholics in africa, that level of ignorance

about your own faith proves something about you.

[pnwmom]

52. I didn't say there weren't many Catholics in Africa -- I said they didn't care

what the Pope has to say about condoms. The Catholic Church isn't involved in mind control, and Catholics are just as likely to use birth control as anyone else, no matter what the Pope says.

[Exultant Democracy]

57. You obviously don't know anything about Africa or the catholic church in Africa.

[pnwmom]

82. And you're full of B.S. and bias. n/t

[roguevalley]

62. they were pedos using religion. point to a place in any religious

text in any religion in this world that says anything like this is allowed. You won't find it. Confine the rage to the perps. Kick the religions if they didn't act fast enough.

[Exultant Democracy]

66. You mean aside from the bible right? Give the bible a break a lot of it was written in the stone-age

when it was just fine to diddle little girls. Bone up on the old testament. (For that matter the FLDS which is what the OP is about also obviously encouraged it.) Many religions promote child brides, generally the more fundy the people the higher the chance they are going to be fucking their 12 year old girls.

[uppityperson]

67. Where does it say so in the bible?

[Exultant Democracy]

71. Have you ever read the bible, for a start Rebecka was 14 when she married Issac

if you bother to crunch the numbers. Good chance Sarah was 12-15 when she got married. Eve was 0 days old, but in fairness that might not count.

[uppityperson]

74. You claimed the Bible allows it, you prove it.

My reading is beside the point. I agree that the more fundie the more likely they are to be fucking 12 yr old girls. So because someone "married" a youngster, does that mean the Bible says it is ok, or is it merely telling a story?
--------------------------------
This is interesting, 3-14 yrs old: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=146&letter=R
The Rabbis disagree as to the age of Rebekah at the time of her marriage to Isaac. The statement of the Seder 'Olam Rabbah (i.) and Gen. R. (lvii. 1) that Abraham was informed of Rebekah's birth when he ascended Mount Moriah for the 'Aḳedah, is interpreted by some as meaning that Rebekah was born at that time, and that consequently she was only three years old at the time of her marriage. Other rabbis, however, conclude from calculations that she was fourteen years old, and that therefore she was born eleven years before the 'Aḳedah, both numbers being found in different manuscripts of the Seder 'Olam Rabbah (comp. Tos. to Yeb. 61b). The "Sefer ha-Yashar" (section "Ḥayye Sarah," p. 38a, Leghorn, 1870) gives Rebekah's age at her marriage as ten years.

This one says 16 http://www.anusha.com/isaac.htm
After the dutiful servant brought a wife to Isaac, it took Isaac another 20 years before he was able to make her pregnant. Rebecca, the wife of Isaac, first and last gave birth when Isaac was 60 years old and Rebecca was probably about 36 (Genesis 25:26).

[pnwmom]

83. And what was the life expectancy for women in that era? Probably

something like age 30-40.

[pnwmom]

25. Not at all the same. Lay Catholics weren't handing their children over

to priests for "spiritual marriages." They didn't know about the abuse -- and when they found out, they took appropriate legal action.

[Exultant Democracy]

29. Dude everyone knew what was going on it was rampent, people chose to close their eyes

and ignore the truth because their religion told them too. The allegations of abuse in the catholic church had been made for centuries give me a break.

I find large groups of child molesters that work under the guise of religion to be interchangeable.

[pnwmom]

32. Again, no Catholic turned their child over to a priest for a "spiritual marriage."

And the number of priests involved in this were actually few -- as a percent of the priesthood -- but the offenders usually had many victims.

Since more than 95% of the priesthood were NOT involved in these activities, and the hierarchy was covering up for the offenders for decades, it was very easy for the lay Catholic not to know about the cases that were occurring.

[Exultant Democracy]

34. Every catholic I know knew someone who had been molested, same creeps different religion

end of story. Not to mention the priest that were part of the cover up who would allow the molesters to be put back in situations where they would be able to molest again.

How many kids were on that ranch 500 or something? Diddling 500 kids would be light work for the catholic church.

[pnwmom]

36. The Catholic Church is the largest single denomination in the United States,

with as many members as the other Christian denominations put together. It is ridiculous in sheer numbers to compare the Catholic Church to the FLDS. It only makes sense to look at the offenders in terms of percentages -- and in the case of the Catholic priesthood, the percent of offenders was tiny.

I am Catholic and I've never personally known anyone who was molested by a priest. There are hundreds of thousands of Catholics in my state, and a few dozen children molested. And it was never a part of the theology!

[Exultant Democracy]

38. See I think it only makes sense to look at it in terms of the number of children molested.

I bet each child molested feels the same way, thats why they are lining up for the checks.

[pnwmom]

40. And how many FLDSers do you see who are objecting?

Very very few -- because of the degree of mind control in this cult.

[Exultant Democracy]

43. Think about how many millions of africans won't wear condoms, talk about mind control

fatally stupid propaganda isn't exclusive.

[pnwmom]

46. How many Africans do you think care what the Catholic church says about

birth control?

The Catholics aren't controlling minds in Africa.

If they were, polygamy wouldn't be the problem there that it is.

[Exultant Democracy]

49. The 149 million members of the catholic church there perhaps? A pattern emerges.

[pnwmom]

50. We have millions of Catholics in the U.S., and the Catholics here are just

as likely to use birth control, including condoms, as any other religious denomination.

The Pope can say what he wants, but we don't blindly follow his dictates.

[Exultant Democracy]

53. yes and the 149 million catholics in Africa are far more devote by any measure and they tend to

follow all the mumbo jumbo. They have some funny notion that the Pope is infallible. (I wonder where that came from?)

[pnwmom]

56. Oh yeah? Prove it. n/t

[Exultant Democracy]

59. In the last 26 years as the catholic church as a whole has shrunk* it has tripled in Africa

*from 18% of the total population to 17%.

This variance in the levels of conversions versus churn is directly attributable to the level of devotion. You can look on the google the numbers are all out there.

[uppityperson]

65. Lies, damned lies, statistics.

IF the % shrunk, still the population grew.

[Exultant Democracy]

68. Doesn't change that in Africa they went from 50 mil to over 150 mil in 30 years. Th

the numbers support my argument no matter how you try to slice it.

[uppityperson]

69. Only partially. If only part of your numbers are correct, only part are.

In the last 26 years as the catholic church as a whole has shrunk. That is incorrect.

http://www.wholesomewords.org/missions/greatc.html

[Exultant Democracy]

72. As a % of the world population, as opposed to africa where they are growing rapidly

would wide 18% to 17% in Africa 10% to 18% of the population. I don't see how these numbers could be interpreted in any other way. It shows the Church on a global scale in a a recession but with strong powerful growth in Africa.

[pnwmom]

81. Doesn't make them more devout, just newer.

Still plenty of polygamists among these "devout Catholics."

[roguevalley]

63. work under the guise. religion doesn't allow this. Men do. Men.

[Exultant Democracy]

76. No arguing that these religions weren't made up by guys, but I think perhaps the FLDS women

who outnumber their male counterparts in the community were also actively participating as co-conspirators over the generations.

[pnwmom]

84. So, in your opinion, Catholics are just as involved as FLDSers,

and the women FLDSers as much as the men.

Way to go, genius.

[uppityperson]

64. There is a difference between a creed saying "do this" and people in the church chosing to do someth

One is the creed saying "A man must have 3 woman, preferably young minors, to fuck so he can get into heaven."

The other is someone in the church saying "hey, I can fuck young kids".

Try another example. Is there a difference between an official gvt policy that says "it's peachy doodle to torture people" and a person who is part of a gvt deciding on his own to torture someone? One is policy, the other is personal choice.

(And yes, I know our gvt has an unofficial policy that says it's peachy doodle and that supposedly covers everyone)

[Exultant Democracy]

73. A difference that allowed them to successfully molest far more children then the FDLS ever will

people who use mumbo jumbo to rape children are all the same when it come down to what is really important.

And yes the priest told the kids they would burn in hell if they told anyone and that they were doing to the kids because they were full of sin in addition to a whole lot of other sick shit.

[uppityperson]

75. Lies, damned lies, statistics again. There are far more catholic kids than FLDS

Still, if the Catholic creed said "go forth and fuck small kids", I bet there would have been more happening. Anyone who chose to do this, and was covered up by superiors, they all were wrong.

[Exultant Democracy]

78. I guess I just see it a little differently then you do.

They are different from each other and each is worse in it's own different way then the other. In both cases religion played a crucial role in the exploitation of these children with the support of the religions patriarchal hierarchy. Anything institution that encourages irrationality and subservience becomes a natural tool for predators. Attracting the predators and protecting them.

[uppityperson]

79. I agree with that, but see it further as a difference between what is

acceptable or over-lookable and what is required. Either way, they are both wrong.

[roguevalley]

61. this isn't about religion. this is pedophilia shrouded by religion.

[PDJane]

23. I've been following this.

For another story about Jeffs' bunch of perverts, go to:

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3202636

[pnwmom]

30. These people are crazies -- but are they Jeffs' crazies?

I couldn't tell from the article.

[Rosemary2205]

39. Yes and no

the FLDS has been up to this sort of thing generations prior to Warren Jeffs. He is/was only the most current leader of them.

In addition. You have to understand, these women were conditioned from the cradle on to comply with the will of "the prophet", whoever he may be, and of their husbands. The women themselves and quite frankly I'd say even most of the men are likely the end result of a lifetime of abuse at the hands of equally abused parents. When it gets to a generational thing it's not just a matter of being "crazy".

This happens to be a defined cult, with various compounds all over the United States and some have taken hold in Canada and Mexico. But there are "hidden" cults all around the US, that have the same generational brainwashing and abuse that destroys one generation after the next. Not too long ago there was loose band of Appalacian churches in West Virginia that by every outward appearance seemed to be a regular small christian church. Turned out generation after generation they were practicing some sort of Satanic worship, sometimes in the church but mostly in homes. Women and children were bein horrifically mentally, physically and sexually abused. Most of the men who were doing it were raised in that culture also and thought they were handpicked by a god (because they managed to survive within the culture structure rather than die or be shunned) to do the same to their wives and children.

Most people do as they are raised to do. I, thank god, was raised in a fairly healthy way. Not too many generations back part of my family were freed slaves, born of slaves who were also born of slaves. There's one (however many great's) Aunt who was freed but simply stayed on the rest of her life and just kept doing what she always did because "freedom" had no meaning to her. Even if she left she had nowhere to go. She lived to be quite old and I believe died in the 1940's, still living in the shack behind a big house in Georgia.

[pnwmom]

41. You're right, I tossed off that word too loosely.

These people are the victims of mind control, and it is a problem going down generations. And, from what I read, there are tens of thousands of people like this in the United States. How do you feel about the way things are being handled in Texas now? Are you hopeful that some real change might occur? Or will this be like in the fifties -- in a couple of years, the FLDS will have more power and more adherents than ever?

Your (great) aunt does sound a little like some of these women -- after being raised in the sect, they don't know how to handle freedom. A number of those who escape do end up returning. It's so sad.

[kestrel91316]

87. The LeBarons are in thier own wacky sect of alt.LDS.......

They are just like FLDS, except that they are different, lol. And I think they think FLDS are gonna burn in hell because they are very slightly different.

Sort of like the million different kinds of Amish and Mennonites........

[rainbow4321]

55. Polygamist's son: "He believes that incest is going to bring back the line of Jesus Christ."

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3202636

We first met Ross LeBaron, Jr. a decade ago when he told us his theory about the end of the world. Now, his sons say his religion has taken a disturbing turn.

"The concept that he has superior genetics, superior intelligence, if you will, due to his direct lineage of Jesus Christ," David said.

Several adult siblings still live with their dad on a ranch near Kanab and at other homes. Three sons who broke away say Ross LeBaron, Jr. believes he must maintain the purity of his seed.


Another son, Alaric LeBaron, is an Air Force doctor in Afghanistan. Over the phone he told us, "My dad is a religious fanatic, and he believes in this. He believes that incest is going to bring back the line of Jesus Christ."

[PDJane]

77. This story was pointed out to me

By a woman related somehow to Alaric le Baron. This is a sane and very brave young man.

[uppityperson]

60. delete, not the right topic

[eppur_se_muova]

88. Or Stepford wives, with some badly burned-out subunits ... nt