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teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 01:05 PM
Original message
An Idea Whose Time Has Gone
Excerpt from article in Washington Monthly: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2008/0804.anrig.html#Byline

Ultimately, the voucher experiments confirmed what their critics had asserted all along. The heart of the problem with our urban schools is neither the education bureaucracies nor teachers unions, as Chubb, Moe, and many other voucher advocates have contended, flawed though those institutions may be. Instead, as the sociologist James S. Coleman found in the 1960s, a student's family's income and the collective social and economic background of his classmates are by far the most important influences on his academic future. Not only do lower-income students tend to score relatively poorly, children of any background who attend high-poverty schools are far more likely to produce worse test results than they would in schools with primarily middle-class students. America's urban school systems remain almost universally dysfunctional, primarily because the country as a whole is about as segregated by race and income as at any time since the civil rights revolution.








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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hi, teacher gal. A kick and some questions for you.
Are you familiar with John Taylor Gatto's books? What do you think of his ideas?

I agree with much of what I've read, but I wonder how those within the educational system regard his work. Perhaps you have some insight about that. I should probably note that I was once interested in a teaching career but stayed away because of what I see as a flawed system that punishes teachers (and students) rather than focuses on teaching; if that makes any sense to you.

:hi:

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teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Hi there Cerridwen
I confess I've not read Gatto's books. Not so long ago I read an excerpt from one of his works. I only recall agreeing with some but not all of his criticisms of public education.

Sorry I'm not more helpful but I'll bet there are others here familiar with his work who can chime in with their insights. Meanwhile, I'll try to read up a bit on his work and perhaps return tonight with my "highly qualified opinion" ....haha
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. In the meantime, I'll provide a link for you and keep this kicked a bit...
A link to Gatto's website that might aid in your research. :D

He went off on a "religious" tangent at one point which caused me to grit my teeth. The information up to that point seemed valid, though I'm not educated enough in the history of education to evaluate if he presented accurate information. That is why I asked for your "highly qualified opinion"; which, btw, I happen to believe is highly qualified as you are in the field. My knowledge can only benefit from your experience. You've also shown concern for children going through the system now; that counts for much in my book; especially since you keep at it even on this board which can be quite a challenge, as you've seen. :D

I'm also interested in reading what others have to say; those within the system and those involved through their children or family.

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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. About 18 months ago, a news talk show in the S F Bay area
Edited on Sat May-03-08 01:42 PM by truedelphi
Was discussing the plight of teachers in the East Bay area (Oakland et al)

And teachers were saying that the kids are basically just raising themselves. The parents are either working two or three jobs, or have succembed to drugs.

We can't expect our schools and teachers to fill in the gaps when teenagers have NO PARENTS around.

And the only role models thay have are those provided by things like MTV
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'd like to highlight this:
"Instead, as the sociologist James S. Coleman found in the 1960s, a student's family's income and the collective social and economic background of his classmates are by far the most important influences on his academic future."

We've known this for 40 years. For 20-30 years prior to the "standards and accountability" movement that brought us high stakes testing as a tool to close achievement gaps, first at the state level in various states, and then at the federal level with NCLB.

We'll close achievement gaps when we close the socio-economic/class gaps.

What could we have accomplished over the last decade, if we'd poured the resources into closing THOSE gaps?
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teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. kick
Again, I'll be back about Gatto.
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teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Gatto
Well, Cerridwen, thank you for the link. I did read through the website as well as doing a little more research on Gatto's ideas. Thank you for valuing my opinion and that is all I can offer here - my opinion!

I believe there is certainly some truth and wisdom in what he has to say. There is little doubt that powerful corporate interests have long managed to exert a degree of control over our schools and have conveniently used mandatory schooling as a means to control the masses...as Gatto describes, as "drill centers for the habits and attitudes that corporate society demands." And with the now maniacal overuse and misuse of standardized tests, we see these forces on steroids, working as demoralizing human sorting devices, relegating many to assume their subordinate roles in our society, having largely been denied the opportunity to learn to question, probe, think critically and independently.

However, I also find Gatto to be arrogant and self-important and not entirely fair or balanced in his portrayal of our public schools. Goodness knows our public schools and those who labor in them despite incredible challenges manage to do an awful lot of good IN SPITE OF the incessant meddling and colossal screw-ups and unproductive mandates imposed by our corporate/politicos and standardistos. For many of our children suffering abuse, neglect, and all manner of societal ills, public schools are a sort of haven or sanctuary, the only stability in their lives. This school year I have four little students who have been particularly brutalized... their stories are horrendous. The impact on their development - cognitively, socially and behaviorally is huge. And when Friday comes, these needy kids are not excited about it like most kids...indeed they often have expressed to me that they are NOT glad the weekend has come.

In my view, the evil is not our government or our public schools - it is their hijacking by these selfish elites to serve their own interests and keep everybody else down. But I believe it would be disastrous for us to abandon public schools. I very much agree with what Alfie Kohn had to say in a 2004 article that you can access here: http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/testtoday.htm

I highly recommend reading Kohn's entire article but here are the key excerpts regarding Gatto:

...the handful of progressive-minded individuals who have made common cause with those on the right by attacking public education. John Taylor Gatto is an example here. In a recent Harper’s magazine essay entitled “Against School,” he asserts that the goal of “mandatory public education in this country” is “a population deliberately dumbed down,” with children turned “into servants.”(6)

In support of this sweeping charge, Gatto names some important men who managed to become well-educated without setting foot in a classroom. (However, he fails to name any defenders of public education who have ever claimed that it’s impossible for people to learn outside of school or to prosper without a degree.) He also cites a few “school as factory” comments from long-dead policymakers, and observes that many of our educational practices originated in Prussia. Here he’s right. Our school system is indeed rooted in efforts to control. But the same indictment could be leveled, with equal justification, at other institutions. The history of newspapers, for example, and the intent of many powerful people associated with them, has much to do with manufacturing consent, marginalizing dissent, and distracting readers. But is that an argument for no newspapers or better newspapers?

Ideally, public schools can enrich lives, nourish curiosity, introduce students to new ways of formulating questions and finding answers. Their existence also has the power to strengthen a democratic society, in part by extending those benefits to vast numbers of people who didn’t fare nearly as well before the great experiment of free public education began.

Granted, “ideally” is a hell of a qualifier. But an attack on schooling as we know it is generally grounded in politics rather than pedagogy, and is most energetically advanced by those who despise not just public schools but all public institutions. The marketplace, which would likely inherit the task of educating our children if Gatto got his way, is (to put it gently) unlikely to honor the ideals that inform his critique. Some folks will benefit from that kind of “reform,” but they certainly won’t be kids.(7)





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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Thank you!
I'm off to read the article you linked.

I do, however, take exception to "But the same indictment could be leveled, with equal justification, at other institutions." That smacks a bit of two wrongs making a right. Yes, it's true, other institutions do the same...that doesn't make it "okay" for our educational system to do likewise. If anything, I, for one (I speak for myself) would like to hold education to an even higher standard than "other institutions".

M'kay...now off to read. :D

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teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Good point!
Indeed two wrongs do not make a right. However, I don't think that is what Kohn was arguing.
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Cool. It'll make more sense when I read the article in context.
I'm multi-tasking so it may take a while. :D

In the meantime, we get to keep your thread kicked. I'm so evil. LOL

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teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Me too! he he nt
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. I think people make a big mistake presuming the private schools
Gatto praises are today's private schools. Those seem to largely run in approximate lockstep with the public schools. They're largely separated by grades. They have hourly bells to break up learning and concentration. They have separated, narrow study subjects.

What little I've read of Gatto's ideas leads me to believe he praises the private schools of the past, prior to the advent of public school education and the adoption of Prussian education methods by both private and public schools.
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Hi SimpleTrend.
I'm more interested interested in the background and history Gatto presents. I was wondering how accurate or how slanted he's presented it.

I'm not one to promote the idea we throw out the whole system and replace it with privatized corporate schools but I am interested in what has happened in the past and whether or not it's been in the interests of education or if it's been more about promoting a corporate mentality.

It appears that, at least in that respect, Gatto and Kohn agree that corporate interests have all but decimated our public school system for reasons having nothing to do with education.

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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. You've probably looked at it in more detail than I.
Edited on Sun May-04-08 12:09 PM by SimpleTrend
What I was replying to was a more general thrust I saw, and have seen, on DU. Bring up Gatto, and it's my experience that long term DUers who are not trolls, participate in trollish behavior to discredit, failing even to stop at the line demarcating truth from deceit. Several times in the distant past I brought him up and I was hailed as a right winger posting right-wing propaganda.

My apologies if you thought I wasn't replying directly on your point, it simply seemed one virtual place to bring up this private versus public school misunderstanding. I cannot shed further light on your historical quest regarding corporate intent, except to say that one type of analysis is simply to look at results, and presume things are precisely how some powerful folks (think Top 400) want them.

Gatto makes a number of salient and critical observations that I believe educators at the top of hierarchy need to listen to. In order for those at the top to listen to them, it's clear those ideas need to bubble up from below, but that's a hard sell when the surface appearance of his ideas appear in sole favor of private schools. Unfortunately, teachers, in general, seem rather boxed in by an educational system that worked well enough for them, but that seems to fail nearly 75% of the population in an educational sense, and a larger percentage in an economic sense.

So, I guess, keep up the discussion and critical thought. I don't know if it will be enough, though, to overcome the momentum of a sick system (for most) that is highly beneficial (for a few).
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I was wondering how his work was viewed on this board.
Given his "religious" take in some spots, I'm not surprised he's viewed that way.

No need to apologize. You bring another facet into the discussion. I didn't read it as though you were "trolling" or being a r/w shill or diverting the topic. Though perhaps now some DUer will try to label me as such. :D

I'm quite adept at "killing the messenger" though I prefer to address the message when and where possible. I'm not advocating Gatto 100%. As with many things, I have to sift through the static to get to the valid points. If he's promoting privatization (I didn't notice that but that doesn't mean it's not there), then I differ with his view of a solution. I've not yet found where I disagree with what he's described of the history of our public education system or some of the faults that exist within the system. I haven't read his more recent stuff so perhaps my information is out of date. I'll have to brush up. :D

My motives are purely selfish. I would dearly love to be able to teach but I cannot imagine myself doing so in the system as it now exists. To paraphrase something I read once: "A good teacher is the one who leads you to the top of the hill so that you can look out and learn all there is to see." In other words, good teachers lead their students to knowledge, allowing them to, in essence, educate and learn for themselves. Those who treat students as an "empty vessel" to be filled with data to be regurgitated on a test; not so much. I hate that the current system rewards and demands the later while punishing and eliminating the former.




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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I rather doubt anyone would find another with whom they agree 100%.
Edited on Sun May-04-08 07:08 PM by SimpleTrend
Against School is an easy enough essay to find, I'm not at all certain Gatto himself advocates a return to private schools, but rather a severe change in the basic premise of what school is and how it is approached by all its participants. It's been awhile since I read it, and like I said earlier, I've just looked at some of his work, and liked some of what I read, but I'm no expert. I was led to it from another's work, and over the years I've seen third-party presentations of it that do concentrate on the pro private school bias, whether justified or not.

While it may be taking the authors overall point out of context, it's even associated in the Kohn link above: "This is a point worth emphasizing to the handful of progressive-minded individuals who have made common cause with those on the right by attacking public education. John Taylor Gatto is an example here. In a recent Harper’s magazine essay entitled “Against School,” he asserts that the goal of “mandatory public education in this country” is “a population deliberately dumbed down,” with children turned “into servants.”(6) "

Kohn's overall point is to save the schools and stop NCLB, but I'm not certain he knows what he's talking about when it comes to Gatto. Myself, I believe that he is creating a metaphor or possibly rhetorical device with his "Against School" essay, but Kohn seems to understand the title literally.
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teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Came home tonight
and was surprised to find this thread on the first page. So what the heck, I'll give it a kick as there has been a bit of interesting discussion.

Thanks to all supporting this thread.

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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Hey, there. I just kicked it again - twice.
:D

:hi:

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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I went and read "Against School"
Then I went to his site and re-read the conclusion of his book to see just what he does advocate. As I said, I originally read to learn the history of the educational system rather than a solution to something of which I'm no longer a part.

He does mention private schools and parochial schools and he's very positive about home schooling. Mostly what he's talking about is getting government regulation out of schools while keeping government funds in schools. He's for small community based schooling, mixed age classes, and letting children learn what they will learn that is of interest to them. He's for education for the sake of education rather than to create employees for the "owner class" (my phrase, not his). He's for parent involvement and community involvement, he's against conformity, and against teaching all children as though they are a uniform mass to be controlled and programmed. He believes there is genius in children that is stultified by the school environment. When he argues against "school", he's talking about the regulated, uniform, unimaginative, controlled environment many here have argued is now the school system.

In short, he makes many of the arguments about school and education I was exposed to during my time in school (late 60s and 70s) that came from the left. The irony didn't escape me. :D

I've only touched lightly on his ideas here, but I think you get the trend. He's anti-authoritarian is probably the best way I can think to put it.




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teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. And again
I agree with MANY of his views. The oppressive control of corporate/politicos over our schools does indeed serve to dumb down and produce a mass of compliant workers for the ruling elite. We need grassroots efforts to get them OUT of our classrooms and allow our schools to be run by the people and for the people...FOR THE CHILDREN!
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Precisely.
I think that is the central point of his argument.

But, I seem to have thread-jacked your thread for which I apologize.

On the plus side, it's stayed up on the front page so maybe more people will read the link you posted. :D



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teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Hey, you've been a help,
not a hindrance! It has been interesting Cerridwen, thank you!
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Thank you for saying so.
And, you're welcome.

If I time my replies to you just right, we should be able to keep this on the front page indefinitely.

:rofl:

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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
7. Kick. n/t
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teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Some comments por favor good people? n/t
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teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. another try nt
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teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Well, getting some recs
if not comments.

Thank you to somebody out there!
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
16. Only comment I feel qualified to make here is
it's a damned shame that we've had all these years (no, make that decades...) to figure out something that's been in our collective faces the whole time, and somehow we've not found the political will to FIX it - or even to acknowledge it. :'(
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
19. experiment after experiment, lack of result and poor results, the PTB and
those who want to turn education into a profit centers will not hear.
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