I was asked this question about C. Jessup's book, claims of abuse in FLDS

[uppityperson]

This is not me asking, but asking for someone else. I have my opinions as to the answer, but am looking for input of others. The asker gave me permission to post, with warning to put on flame suit. I don't believe in flaming, but seeking info from other posters here. Thanks.

"if someone were to take her word as fact & that children & women are used daily as punching bags, they'd have to explain where the pictures of or references to women & children from YFZ with bruises, black eyes, broken noses, head trauma, etc are."

Again, not me asking, and I am getting tired of arguing with these people, but I said I'd ask for someone else.

[Diane R]

1. I read the book, too.

The women and children are covered in clothing from their toes to their necks. All you really see are hands and heads. Few bruises would be seen. I know this because I used to teach in a very low-income area, and lots of kids came to school with bruises covered by long sleeves in hot weather.

As for black eyes. Carolyn herself said in an interview that a lot of FLDS women wore sunglasses to hide black eyes. And I did see sun glasses on some of the women when the compound was raided.

I've also read that the baby cemeteries have quite a few young children who died from injuries.

I'd also comment that the women from the YFZ compound have seldom been seen in public, so I'm not understanding how your questioner thinks their injuries could have been shown in pictures.

[uppityperson]

2. That is my take on it also.

And as far as ongoing bruises, they were not allowed contact with outsiders, so I'd say not able to be seen then also.

[Catshrink]

3. One of the talking heads said there were 30+ broken bones

among the kids. Maybe it was XRays showed there had been. What I vaguely remember is that there were a number of broken bones -- I wasn't sure if they'd been set properly.

I've only heard this story once but I haven't been following this closely.

[Warpy]

4. They're finding evidence of abuse of young children

in X-rays. Broken bones caused by abuse are not the green sick fractures you see in kids who fall out of the apple tree.

[uppityperson]

5. I read about that also, so far I can find no more definitive news than "investigating"

And I am looking, since I don't trust FLDS statements, yet also know news media "sexitizes" news to "omg!" status to sell air time/ ad time. I haven't seen anything beyond they were investigating the number and type of breaks. If anyone has, I'd appreciate seeing it also.

Edited to add article from 5/1/08
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/DN-cps_01tex.ART.State.Edition1.4609f45.html

(clip) Medical exams and medical record reviews for the youngsters showed dozens with previous bone breaks or fractures, said Carey Cockerell, head of the Department of Family and Protective Services, parent agency of Child Protective Services.

"Several of these fractures have been found in very young children, and several have multiple fractures," Mr. Cockerell told a Senate panel. He didn't elaborate. CPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins said the agency doesn't know at what ages the bone breaks occurred, what types of bones were broken or how many children had multiple breaks.

While physical injuries can be an indicator of abuse, checks by The Dallas Morning News suggested broken bones for 9 percent of a group of rural children is not out of line. According to the Web site of the Seattle Children's Hospital, about half of all boys and a quarter of all girls break a bone sometime during childhood. In 2001, about 16 percent of youngsters under 20 living on farms suffered an injury – the most common being broken bones, a federal study says.

The department said on its Web site on Wednesday that it does "not have X-rays or complete medical information on many children so it is too early to draw any conclusions based on this information." (more)

[sam sarrha]

22. when over half the girls 14-17 were pregnant or mothers.. and how many were forced to lie about thei

[Fleshdancer]

6. the cliche of a battered woman is a bruised up face....

but the reason why domestic violence often goes unnoticed is because the abuse is usually less blatant than a black eye. Living in a secluded compound and dressed from neck to ankle can cover up a world of hurt.

What chills me to the bone is a story I heard several weeks ago from a woman working on this case and it's just now starting to come out in the media. You've read about the waterboarding and you've probably read about the broken or mended arms, right? Well it's the waterboarding that causes the broken arms. The waterboarding takes place in the sink and the babies continuously hit their arms on the edges during the process.

[uppityperson]

8. Thanks for your input and I agree about the bruises being hidden.

Having been there, done that, only once was it noticeable to others.

And I've read about holding babies heads in running water in the sink to make them quiet. I cannot state well enough how I feel about this whole thing. Horrendous. I am looking forward to new info coming out and hope to hell that more is released about the broken bones.

[sam sarrha]

15. batters dont leave public evidence. i was a battered husband. punched/kicked in the ribs,

bitten ferociously on my shoulder.. the bruise was huge, the lividity moved down my arm to my elbow, a friend saw it and pulled up my sleeve.. i had gotten Gangrene, the flesh was purple and vermilion around that.. he was horrified, demanding i go to the emergency, trying to drag me out the door..

i explained to him that the doctor would identify it as a "Defensive Wound" and call the police. i would be printed photographed and put on a sex crime list, it would be distributed.. if a woman had been attacked and bite him i could be extradited all the way across the country for a line up.. over an over.. i explained i went to the vet supply and got a bottle of pills to treat 'fish ick', it was standard Tetracycline.. i new the dose i was OK..

she was "Insanely" jealous, among other things, she also stabbed me twice.. we had a 2 year old, i feared what would happen if she took him, i cared for our child.. she couldn't deal with him..

one day she sent me to the store.. i rushed there and back, keeping at least 10 feet from any woman with perfume on.. when i got back.. she was in a fit of rage... she stared me down and said, "When you are 5 minutes late i think you had an accident and are dead or dying beside the road, or having an affair.... and i always PRAY YOU ARE DEAD.!!"

SO... tell your friend, everyone has a right to speak their opinion.. but some people's mouths are only the other end of their ass holes. they dont know shit about what they are talking about.

i have heard women who have escaped those pedophile Slavers over the last 30 have essentially told of the same rape and brutality for those 30 long long long years. tell em to wise up, or just say their piece then shut the fuck up. they are invalidating the horid suffering of hundredsthousands of women who are tortured emotionally and physically every day.. not all the women in the slave compounds,of course but many. they can live with it and ignore it but some of us cant anymore

[Diane R]

17. My oldest son was once in an abusive relationship...she was crazy.

Abuse of males is much more common than anyone can imagine. Those women find really, really nice guys and prey on their sympathy and goodness. My 6'3" son was starting dental school at one of the top ranked schools...yet he was with a woman who hit him, and was emotionally abusive. Thankfully, we were able to convince him it was a terrible relationship, and he's now in an extremely healthy relationship with a girl who is a doctor (he's now a dentist). But when there are children involved, and the man would have to leave the kids with an abuser, it gets much more difficult. I'm glad you were able to leave.

[sam sarrha]

20. actually she ran off with a drug dealer and 2 junky whores, i never saw my son again

he is 32 now. she later did get it together.. i wont ever see her again.

[uppityperson]

18. Yup. I'm glad you got out alive.

Batterers often know how to hurt and not leave visible evidence. This is not a friend but another DUer's question, and I agree with your assessment.

It is difficult enough for a woman to get help, quit one of those relationships, and men have an extra bit added on. I'm glad you made it out alive.

[piesRsquare]

7. I'm kind of confused by the question...

Who would take such pictures?

Is the person asking where such pictures are from people who fled the compound? Or from the current investigation?

Physical abuse doesn't always involve the head. Also, some people bruise more easily than others; some people heal faster than others when bruised.

Bruises don't always show up so well in photographs, either (unless said photographs are taken with a good camera, and specifically to document said bruises).

Head trauma isn't necessarily "photograph-able". How many of the women that we've actually seen from the compound have had concussions? How many concussions have they had? Memory loss, migraines, mood changes, etc aren't photograph-able.

If the person is asking about the current investigation, meaning "Where are the pictures of injured women?", remember that this investigation is about *child* abuse, not overall domestic violence. The women over 18 are not getting medical exams. However, someone mentioned on another thread the other day that medical examinations have showed that a number of the children currently in custody have previously had broken bones. Doesn't necessarily mean they were abused, but it could.

Hope this is the kind of input you were looking for... :-)

[uppityperson]

9. It is and thank you. I think the question was the current investigation.

Why were there not noticeable bruises on the women in the news. Good input on head injuries, even mild traumatic brain injuries can cause permanent damage. I know from both work and personal experience (had a concussion a couple yrs ago and have permanent damage. The good thing that happened is I used to have to wear glasses for a horizontal displacement issue, but after the concussion I don't. I knocked my eyes straight, actually damaged my brain in the right place to fix it. Still, my memory loss issues don't balance it out.)

I will be sending the link to this to the person after a bit.

[piesRsquare]

11. Gotcha...

If the women had bruises (that weren't covered up), the bruises would not necessarily be "see-able" when the women were on the news.

If bruised, these women have *real* bruises, that, if uncovered, would be somewhat (if not entirely) "washed out" by the bright lighting of news cameras, studios, and still-camera flashes. The "bruises" seen on television shows and movies are heavy makeup, which is why they "show up" so clearly.

If the person asking this question is looking to see bruises on these women shown on the news, s/he is (likely) not going to see any. This is real life, not a movie on the Lifetime Channel.

[uppityperson]

12. 1 more bit, this person claims to have been there in person.

Of course internet claims need to be taken as only claims, sorry person, but just because you say something doesn't mean it is real.

Even if someone were there, many bruises can be hidden (esp with full coverup clothing), and some FLDS women were wearing sunglasses.

[Bobbieo]

10. Texas should be commended for this type of investigation -

which is LONG over do!!! I'm ashamed that my state, Arizona - and Utah have missed out on the opportunity. Somehow, the AGs could have circumvented the state's laws that favored FLDS.

[uppityperson]

13. I agree.

[piesRsquare]

14. Definitely long overdue.

And what a mess.

I remember learning about this place when it was still being built. And learning about FLDS. Sick, sick, sick. And creepy.

Texas indeed should be commended. They've done a fine job; I'm very impressed.

I am hoping this whole ordeal stays in the forefront...it encompasses so many issues that touch the core principles of this nation--and the core values of its people. No doubt that's why it has received so much attention, commentary, and emotional energy from so many. This whole thing is forcing us to address, discuss, and ask questions about these issues, principles, and values at all levels, from the practical/concrete to the abstract/ideological. It is definitely time for some serious introspection, and from what I've seen on message boards from news sites to YouTube to here, Americans are ready for it--and on the right path.

[Bobbieo]

16. With this investigation in full swing in Texas, I am now wondering if thee

legimate members of the Mormon church were REALLY aware of what was going on in the FLDS compounds. I have many Mormon acquaintances and I cannot believe they would tolerate such behavior if they fully understood the machinations of FLDS.

[juno jones]

19. I have a few mormon, ok, pretty much 'jack' mormon, friends.

I think most would be shocked. I haven't talked to them directly about this, but from my impression of them it would be like blaming the methodists for something some obscure 'baptists' did.

[Dorian Gray]

21. LDSers

really have nothing to do with members of the FLDS. They've renounced and disassociated themselves from the church of Latter Day Saints, so there is no connection, other than a shared history of plural marriage.