Churchgoing on its knees as Christianity falls out of favour

[Pale Blue Dot]

Church attendance in Britain is declining so fast that the number of regular churchgoers will be fewer than those attending mosques within a generation, research published today suggests.

The fall - from the four million people who attend church at least once a month today - means that the Church of England, Catholicism and other denominations will become financially unviable. A lack of funds from the collection plate to support the Christian infrastructure, including church upkeep and ministers’ pay and pensions, will force church closures as ageing congregations die.

In contrast, the number of actively religious Muslims will have increased from about one million today to 1.96 million in 2035.

According to Religious Trends, a comprehensive statistical analysis of religious practice in Britain, published by Christian Research, even Hindus will come close to outnumbering churchgoers within a generation. The forecast to 2050 shows churchgoing in Britain declining to 899,000 while the active Hindu population, now at nearly 400,000, will have more than doubled to 855,000. By 2050 there will be 2,660,000 active Muslims in Britain - nearly three times the number of Sunday churchgoers.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3890080.ece

[msongs]

1. fairy tale myth cults come, fairy tale myth cults go. nt

[frebrd]

9. Apparently this one is going,

in Britain, at least.

[Bigmack]

2. How about non-mainline fundie Xian sects...?

Are they growing in the UK?

Main line churches in the US might be fading, but I read several places that the feel-good, suburban mega-churches are growing.

[Hidey]

7. Thanks for mentioning that.!

Catholics consider themselves to be "the church" as in the ONLY Christian church, period. All other Christians are heretics.

Perhaps this is internal propaganda, aimed at upping attendance and isn't reflective of the broader state of Christianity at all?

[Mrs. Overall]

10. Bullshit--since Vatican II, Catholics have accepted Protestants as "brothers and sisters"--

I not only went to Catholic school, where I had religion classes that taught ecumenism, but I later taught theology in Catholic high schools. My ass would have been fired if I had taught the one true church doctrine--the theology curriculum in Catholic schools is now inclusive (since about 1972).

[supernova]

15. Somebody needs to tell your new Boss

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=24660

(I agree w/ you in that none of the individual Catholics I know actually supports this... it's the the church's official position that is offputting.)

[Mrs. Overall]

19. He's not my boss. I left the church long ago. I'm simply stating Vatican II precepts that were

adopted by the Catholic schools in the US, beginning in the early 70's.

Benedict is no fan of Vatican II, so it will be interesting to see what policies may be reversed and whether American Catholics will follow.

On Edit: Catholicism in the US has a history of basically ignoring many of Rome's official teachings. I'm an ex-nun, and we often gave Rome the middle finger when it came to women's issues and social justice, among other things.

[Hidey]

26. No, it isn't..

Dying outside the "one, true church" is to risk ones salvation.

Other Christian churches are heretics. To disagree with Rome is to be in schism, to deny Rome is a heresy.

Since much of mainstream Protestantism is rooted in the teachings of Martin Luther, one only has to look at the RCC's position on him to see just how "inclusive" they really are.

[Mrs. Overall]

29. Your theological perspective of Catholicism is from an era long past--

Other Christians are not "heretics" according to post Vatican II documents. And my use of the term "inclusive" is used in regards to the religious studies curricula in US Catholic high schools.

Conservative Catholics may think that Protestants are heretics, but it is certainly not official dogma, nor is it common practice of US Catholic parishes/schools to promote that sort of divisiveness. I can only speak of my own experience as a former member of the Catholic clergy and as a graduate student of theology.

On Edit: Benedict is definitely not a fan of Vatican II and in his short time as pope has already begun to reverse some of the more "open door" policies that have been in practice. Part of the confusion with Vatican II is that it left itself open to interpretation and so the US Conference of Catholic Bishops definitely moved forward with Vatican II in terms of reform, especially in terms of openess toward other Christians. At several parishes I was part of, we gladly gave communion to non-Catholics. So, I guess there is what Rome says, and what the people really do....

"Many Traditionalist Catholics hold that the Second Vatican Council, or subsequent interpretations of its documents, moved the Church away from important principles of the historic Catholic faith. The principles from which the church is thought to have moved away include:

the belief that the Catholic Church is the one and only true Christian church founded by Jesus Christ;

the belief that the modern idea of religious liberty is to be condemned;
an appropriate emphasis on the "Four Last Things" (Death, Judgment, Heaven, and Hell);

the belief that the books of the Bible are historically inerrant;

a devotion to scholastic theology and an organically grown apostolic Roman liturgy, as they define the Tridentine Mass.

Traditionalist Catholics claim that these progressivist changes were made possible because of the ambiguity present in the official texts of the Council."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council (sorry to quote wikipedia, but I'm in a hurry and this information is mostly from the Catholic Encyclopedia).

[Elspeth]

3. I predict that the 2020's will bring a generation of kids who run to Islam for a sense of purpose

If you raise kids without any religion, there comes a point where they start looking for it. It's usually an adolescent or young adult phase, but that's how a lot of born again fundies get their victims. High school and college students, especially those with problems at home, drug addiction and alcohol issues, or those feeling empty with a lack of meaning often end up in religious or cult organizations to get rid of their problems, addictions or emptiness.

[Pale Blue Dot]

6. I'd like to see your data on this, because what I've seen is exactly the opposite.

There are very few cases of children raised in atheist households who "start looking" for religion.

[Marr]

16. I've never heard of that, either.

I have no studies or data to back it up, just personal experiences. I was raised without religion myself, as were my three siblings. None of us are religious today.

The only former cult members I know were raised in devout Christian households. Both are the children of pastors, come to think of it. I think they broke away from the traditional church as a kind of rebellion in their early 20's, but had to fill that space with something else.

[grasswire]

23. well, this is very interesting

Last week I read the booklet of 500-word "credos" written by 15-year-olds in a particular more secular faith for their "coming-of-age" ceremony. These credos were filled with what the youths DON'T believe, and screamed of emptiness and no grounding in anything. Their parents mostly converted AWAY from Christianity and raised children who mock it but also who so obviously yearn for some kind of spiritual framework.

Meanwhile, people like me exist who can't find a church that isn't desperately getting rid of its religious traditions in order to keep people who are leaving.

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. I don't understand what you're saying

You say first "These credos were filled with what the youths DON'T believe, and screamed of emptiness and no grounding in anything". But then you say they "obviously yearn for some kind of spiritual framework" - but you said they 'screamed of emptiness'. Where did the 'yearning' come in? And what made that obvious? It just sounds like they don't have any credo.

What is "a particular more secular faith"? 'Secular' means 'not attached to a faith'.

[grasswire]

27. okay....

....I should have said church instead of faith. I don't want to name it because two of my family members are ministers in that church denomination.

And if their expressed "emptiness" means they just have no credo, why were they asked to write credos for their coming of age ceremony?

Bottom line: I believe this church is failing its youth by providing the trappings of a religion without any content.

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. Ah, OK, I thought you might have been using a very loose definition of faith

so I was wondering if there needed to be any problem at all with a lack of 'credo'. If it is a church, I can see you'd expect there to be one.

It could be the church failing to provide content; or it could be a lack of interest on the part of the youths. Is it possible they took part in the ceremony because it was assumed by their families that they believed in the teachings of the church, but they haven't really been able to get themselves out of the expectations of their families yet?

[Exultant Democracy]

31. People raised without religion in fact have a tendency to find it perplexing

there is a certain amount of conditioning that you have to get in while a child is young (the typical age cited is 7) without this conditioning they are far less likely to be able to even understand the religions impulse the motivates the belief in the make-believe.

On the other hand the various cults of yahweh that migration between xtian Muslim and jew are very common. At one time almost the entire nation of Islam was made up of ex-Christians.

[dorkulon]

33. I call BS.

I was raised by atheists, and have never felt an urge to seek "deeper meaning" through religion. If anything, people like me would, I imagine, pick one of the more peaceful, thoughtful religions, like Buddhism or Taoism.

[Hidey]

4. Can't happen here.

..and other denominations will become financially unviable.

Protestants have nothing to worry about. One local group doesn't even have a building, they meet in auditoriums, peoples homes, garages, etc.

I never quite understood the external trappings and the pomp equated to a "church" anyway.

I always thought the true "church" was the people themselves and Jesus met with his followers in some very humble surroundings, without an official building or any of that sort of thing.

And I hate to sound suspicious, but I wonder if this is propaganda to "scare" people into church going or as some sort of springboard to influence religious policy makers?

[Cirque du So-What]

5. One need look no further than the 'Christians' who get the most media coverage

for an answer. I won't enumerate all the televangelists and others who have given Christianity a black eye, but to the average 'unchurched' individual, they must have some misgivings about associating with such a pack of wackaloons. Then there are the countless examples of hypocrites in everyday life. I've heard a good deal of first-hand narratives from people who got screwed over by 'Christian' businesses. With the advent of the internet, we've also been treated to a steady stream of 'family values' types who have been caught in flagrante delicto in anything but 'Christian' predicaments.

[madokie]

8. I worked in the concrete world the last 15 or so years of my work career

and the last few years of that time we doine the concrete for several churches, many, in these parts and most if not in all the cases they were more than doubling the size of what they already had. I wondered then how during hard times they would be able to keep it all up, it'll be interesting to see how this all turns out. Personally I consider myself as non-religious, I simply don't believe in any of it.

[supernova]

14. Oh, don't get me started on church building...

x(

If your bldg is falling apart and needs repairs/replacement, that's one thing and I certainly wouldn't begrudge anybody that...

But churches who have perfectly serviceable facilities who go on building binges just because they can really piss me off. It sucks money out of the congregation and takes away from whatever the church is giving to the community. That's where I have to get off the building train. One of the reasons I left my former church was that they were going to start to build a new building and were already putting pressure on people to give more... "to the building fund." When in reality, they didn't fill 1/2 the seats on your average Sunday. Irritated the crap out of me. (Meanwhile the camp next door, really could use some improvements.)

[supernova]

11. I consider myself spiritual and xtain too

but I've recently become worn out with mainline xtianity the way it's currently set up.

All the committee meetings, the potluck suppers, and the exact same service being given every Sunday for at least the past 100 years, if not longer. Oh, the potlucks are fundraisers for various community organizations. Sometimes missionaries from way over seas (Nepal) come to visit and talk about their travels. Several community organizations rent the fellowship hall during the year. That's all good as far as it goes.

But hardly any of the activity at the church is aimed at the broader community. Almost all the church activity and volunteering is to keep the church running. It's rather frustrating when, if you're like me, you'd rather be out volunteering, being useful in the community. And there isn't really a good way to facilitate that through the churches (that I knew). I'm in the process of trying to find one that is more up my alley in that regard.

edit: I guess all this is to say that churches in the coming years are going to have to reinvent themselves if they want to stay relevant in the community. I personally would feel just as satisified going back to house churches... meeting and studying in people's homes and having the chance to break bread and really communicate together. But also being of use in the community, not just being insular to ourselves. For me, that's really the point.

I remember once trying to have a conversation with my minister about having more interfaith dialogue at our church...

She thought I mean bring together Presbyterians, Methodists, and Catholics.... :eyes: No, dear, I mean Xtian, Jewish, and Muslim... and whoever else wanted to participate.

[JerseygirlCT]

20. I think you're right. And the churches with growing membership

(who aren't the sort of fundamentalist, authoritarian types) who start looking at least as much out as in will succeed.

It cannot be just about providing a set group of people with good worship services and a functioning building and fellowship. I really think to be meaningful, it's got to offer what you're looking for - and what I think many are looking for - hands-on, active ways to bring faith into action. More walk, less talk.

(Unless, the talk is as you say, interfaith dialogue!)

I think the churches that do this will find themselves with full pews. The money will come... the building will be maintained, the clergy will get paid - all those boring necessities *will* get done. But when they start to become the focus, then we've lost the focus, I think.

[Perry Logan]

12. God better do something fast.

[hyphenate]

13. I think that we will see

a lot more of the Xtian religions "hiding out" from their own religion instead of embracing an organized church body. They will continue to have faith, but they won't associate so much with any church. We've seen people like Falwell, Robertson, Dobson take center stage and actually mock the beliefs of so many, turning what was once Xtianity into a skewed, highly hypocritical mass. After this presidency, the religious right won't have a bully in the white house, so I'm thinking that influence will somewhat decrease.

I'd like to see more agnosticism and atheism abounding--one thought I have contemplated for some time is that there will be a lot of gobsmacked folks when (not if) aliens finally find us--the hubris that we are alone in the universe and that we are created "in God's image" will be profoundly crushed and it's gonna ruin the day for a lot of people. We can't presume something that large in our belief system anymore--even 100 years ago, we didn't have any idea of the jumps in technology that have shown us billions of stars and other phenomena, the planets surrounding other stars, and even the potentiality of parallel dimensions. We've seen more than we could ever see before, and if we breathe it all in, the rush of knowledge is exceptional.

Some religions bring their own quiet spirituality with them, and taking a spiritual path away from one of the larger churches is more likely to keep people more in tune with the rest of the world.

[supernova]

18. That would be me

:D

[JerseygirlCT]

21. I think it's less about people walking away from churches and

more about churches being willing to walk with the people. Hidebound, "this is the way it's done, tough luck if you don't like it" places may very well find themselves losing membership.

Those that continue to provide a way for people to come together to worship and practice faith while seeing to the needs of those people, and all people -- well, those are likely to continue to be relevant, I think.

(And as to the "image of God" stuff - that's only likely for those who take a strictly literalist interpretation of the phrase. In many Christian's view, that image is more about what's inside than how we look. Anything in this wonderous world is in the image of God, because God is all.)

[Rex]

17. Oh noes! Next they will tell us unicorns are being overtaken by dragons

as the next most believable creature never to exist! The hor-or.

[Exultant Democracy]

32. Or that the fly spaghetti monster is attacking the giant tea pot that orbits jupiter

[The Straight Story]

22. Just as the bible predicted a long time ago

Just sayin'.... ;)

[Beregond2]

24. This has been the trend

in England for years, and it has everything to do with the fact that the Archbishop of Canterbury and his cronies refuse to take a liberal stance on social issues. Granted, they are in a spot, because their church isn't just English, but international. But it would be better to let conservative dioceses secede than to continue to be on the wrong side of the issues.

There is also the fact that in England, the church has a history of class prejudice and a political aspect that puts it in a bad light with moderns.

Of course, Christianity remains far and away the largest religion in the world as a whole, and is growing, so it is a bit premature to talk about it as a disappearing "fairy tale cult."

[saltpoint]

28. Shaw said that "Christianity might be a good thing if anybody ever tried it."

I don't consider the hyper-fundamentalist nutbag foaming-at-the-mouth bomb-loving gay-hating film-censoring Darwin-damning strain of Christians to be especially Christian, if they're Christian at all.

As I read the New Testament, I'm getting a liberal take on how people should be treated. Certainly not much likeness between the words I read there and the way the fundies behave generally.

[dorkulon]

34. This doesn't mean that "we'll be outnumbered," as it seems to suggest.

All of those non-churchgoing Christians (or former Christians) are still part of the same cultural bloc, and will by far outnumber Muslims in Britain. Just because they stop going to church doesn't mean they're going to let the Muslims turn Britain into an Islamic country. BTW, nothing against Muslims here; this just seems likely to be used for fear-mongering against them.