3800 a month are being deported out of my city alone

[proud2BlibKansan]

3800 families broken up every month.

A friend who is an immigration lawyer told me this week that ICE is stepping up and deporting 3800 every month out of this city alone. And I can verify that we are seeing several kids a week at my school losing a parent. There is definitely an increase.

So all of you who bitch about the "illegal aliens" can start cheering.

And the rest of us can cry for the families of the 3800.

[EFerrari]

1. And that's going to be just great for the local economy.

Not.

7 months and counting.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. One of my students

Good kid. Never a problem until a month or so ago. Then he starts getting in trouble. He's been suspended twice recently. So I ask him what's going on and he tells me his dad left. I ask where he went and he says to Mexico. I ask why and he says to work. I say but your dad is a roofer and this is roofing season, why isn't he working here? And the kid starts crying. Mom doesn't want him to say anything. So I tell him I won't say anything, please tell me what happened. And the kid says "I.C.E."

:cry:

[EFerrari]

11. I'm so sorry.

Motherfuckers.

[Duke Newcombe]

193. It gives me a chuckle when businesses who are aiding people here illegally...

nay, ACTIVELY SEEKING THEM OUT FOR THEIR BUSINESS

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7010546821

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/02/bank_of_america.html

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_29/b3943001_mz001.htm

actually get steamed when their customer base dries up when immigration law is actually enforced.

Kind of like drug dealers getting upset when kids raid mom and dad's medicine cabinets instead of buying from them. They aren't exactly on the firmest moral or ethical footing to be complaining, IMHO.

Duke

[Manifestor_of_Light]

2. Who takes care of the legal citizen kids? The foster care system is broken.

CPS is broken.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. The parent who isn't deported takes care of them

[Freddie Stubbs]

69. I suppose going back to where the deported parent is from is out of the question

[Zywiec]

72. Of course it's out of the question

Otherwise you'd have no one to blame for breaking up a family.

[sudopod]

88. PROTIP: That kid is as Amercian as you. nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

95. Does being American entitle your parents to be exempt from immigartion laws?

:shrug:

[sudopod]

101. Are immigration laws just?

Not all that's written to the law is right.

[Freddie Stubbs]

107. Does that mean that people can ignore the law and not expect to face the consequences?

How is that working out for the illegal immigrants?

[maui9002]

144. What it means is that we ought to look for a solution

instead of forcing families to go through this anguish. And a solution is staring us in the face, but due to ideological barriers (nationalism, racism, misplaced fear and/or contempt of Hispanic culture, misplaced fear of terrorism, finding a scapegoat for poor economic times, and "respect for the law"), politicians are afraid of pursuing this solution--comprehensive immigration reform. IMHO, it makes sense for American citizens to support this approach rather than the "send them all back to Mexico by making life as difficult as possible for those that are here" approach. A comprehensive immigration reform bill would recognize the need for low skilled labor (I know many disagree, but the demographics of this country suggest we need low skilled labor), require immigrants to play by the rules to gain the benefits of living here (paying a fee, paying for insurance, paying for taxes, and otherwise becoming part of the system rather than being forced to work in the underground economy), require employers to offer jobs first to qualified American citizens, subject the immigrant work force to the same labor laws that apply to all laborers, and encourage the teaching and adoption of English as either a second or primary language. In my view, this view would help all of us, not just immigrants, the vast majority of whom are only looking to improve their lot in life by a small measure. As a resident of Arizona, I am already seeing the fallout from what may be the toughest anti immigration policies of any state in the country, and from my perspective, the consequences are not positive.

[Freddie Stubbs]

161. No one is 'forcing families to go through this anguish' except the adults who came her illegally

[EFerrari]

171. They came here because they were forced out of their homes

by the Empire. So, yes, they are caught in the middle.

[Freddie Stubbs]

177. The Empire? Did they use the Death Star?

[EFerrari]

184. How sad is that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

213. Do some not understand the evils of Empire?

That surprises me, especially here on DU.

Are you familiar with David Korten who wrote The Great Turning?

Korten helped form the International Forum on Globalization, a group of activists who opposed trade agreements that benefited transnational corporations and disenfranchised the poor. Though the agreements were promoted as spreading global cooperation, as Korten and others saw it, they actually put every person and community on the planet in competition with one another for the economic means of survival. Corporate lobbyists called the process “globalization.” A powerful global resistance emerged that became known to its participants and the public as the “antiglobalization” movement. Korten sees the use of this name by many in the movement as a tactical error, because it allowed globalization proponents to brand the movement as regressive and isolationist. In fact the movement favors building inclusive global relationships; it just rejects the globalization of corporate power.
http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/381/everybody_wants_to_rule_the_world

[Duke Newcombe]

190. What particular fallout from anti-illegal immigration policies do you see in AZ?

I ask for information purposes.

Duke

[countryjake]

196. Not "maui9002" and not in AZ, but here's one article on the fallout...

Crossing the Line?
The economic price of Arizona's crackdown on illegal immigration
http://www.newsweek.com/id/132231

[maui9002]

226. As the article posted by countryjake suggests

the hard data is not yet available. But I live in the Phoenix area and I work with businesses. I am also, along with Julie Pace, an immigration lawyer quoted in the Newsweek article, a member of an ad hoc immigration task force comprised mainly of businesses and organizations affected by immigrant labor: construction, agriculture, tourism being the big three. While my information is anecdotal, businesses are losing long time employees which they believe are difficult to replace, some of them without legal status and some of them related to those without illegal status. I've witnessed some businesses that are being adversely affected by the loss of immigrants as customers: grocery stores in certain areas, rental housing, car and title loans are some examples. The point is that many of these people were integrated into the state's economy, and driving them out will have adverse consequences; perhaps in the long run, the economic benefits of their departure will become evident (lower taxes, higher wages), but I highly doubt it. And the real question goes back to this issue: why is it that the only solution posed by the anti immigration groups is send them back and keep them out? I'm an not a proponent for the status quo, and I recognize the problem that undocumented workers place on the system, but why not change the system to allow immigrants to work here in exchange to agreeing to a regime that addresses the problems that immigrant labor raises?

[sudopod]

206. My name is sudo hussein pod

and I approve of this message. ^_^

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

173. We should ignore broken laws.

Civil Disobedience FTW.

[Freddie Stubbs]

175. One of the realities of civil disobedience is that there are consequences to breaking the law

[Duke Newcombe]

195. At least you're consistent, Anarchist.

I'll give you that.

Duke

[lumberjack_jeff]

143. So... when mom is deported, the kid stays here with dad? n/t

[MrModerate]

3. I wouldn't have thought there were that many deportable persons . . .

in all of Kansas.

Of course, I haven't been in Kansas in upwards of 30 years. Who are these people?

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. "Who are these people?"

Parents.

Wives.

Husbands.

Sons.

Daughters.

[MrModerate]

7. What makes them "deportable?" n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Fear

[MrModerate]

9. OK, I guess I'll have to go look for myself. Cheers!

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Just Google

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=deportation+for+dummies+&btnG=Search

:hi:

[MercutioATC]

17. The fact that they entered this country illegally...

...while tens of thousands of others wait in line to meet the restrictions to become legal U.S. residents (or citizens).

At worst, they're criminals...at best, line jumpers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. Have you exceeded the speed limit lately?

That's just as "criminal" as being undocumented.

There is no line.

[IndyJones]

27. No, it's not. That is not an apples to apples comparison.

Exceeding the speed limit doesn't crowd emergency rooms or schools last I checked. It also doesn't take construction, retail, landscaping, restaurant, etc., jobs that Americans really do want to take.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Actually it's worse

Speeding causes accidents that kill people. :)

[IndyJones]

35. How true...and how many Americans would be alive today ...

if this wasn't allowed to continue?

http://www.wral.com/golo/blogpost/2131299/

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103

You can google all night...and prove your own point. How many American lives would not be gone if our immigration laws were enforced?

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. World Net Daily?!?

Is the Minutemen site down this evening? :rofl:

[IndyJones]

40. What a luxury to be able to pretend deaths don't occur.

I'll never forget hearing the gunshots when this officer was killed by an illegal alien.
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/11/27/news/top_stories/22_00_1911_26_05.txt

I'm sure you find that amusing, too. :( His family doesn't. Neither does the community. But go ahead and find the deaths amusing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. Oh swell

More of the "illegals are violent criminals" meme.

I don't suppose it matters that in all the years I have worked with these people I haven't known any who are violent criminals.

I know - anecdotal. But still true. In fact, they are some of the most law abiding people I know. They go out of their way to keep a low profile because they like living here and know that crime means deportation.

They also RARELY seek out health care. Even for their children. I know two kids who have died because they had no access to health care and many others who have been very sick. One of my kids found his mother dead when he got home from school. She was afraid to go to the doctor. Again, any contact with 'the system' means they risk being noticed and deported.

So no, I don't buy the criminal label. And World Net Daily is not my source for news or information - on any topic.

[IndyJones]

50. As you stated, you don't live in So Cal. They are not in the shadows

and our prisons, hospitals, and schools are overflowing with them.

And no, they are not law abiding. The fact that they are here illegally contradicts that belief right there. And they are not low profile here.

You can look the other way all you want. Unfortunately, that doesn't bring the victims back. You don't have to "buy" it. It's a fact.

Feel free to google illegal immigration, crime, and California for any sources you prefer. Or just continue to deny it exists. Doesn't change the facts either way.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. Well since other Californians don't agree with you

that would make this your opinion, not a fact. We can go back and forth on this all night. There is ample evidence that this country actually benefits from the undocumented more than it is hurt by them.

I am also not looking the other way. Like I said, I know these immigrants. They are good people and an asset to my community.

[IndyJones]

55. Most Californians do agree with me, which is why everytime there is

a vote to deny them benefits, it passes with flying colors.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. Fear mongering is a very effective strategy

5 years ago, the majority of Americans supported the invasion of Iraq. But that doesn't make it right.

[IndyJones]

58. The only person talking about fear mongering is you.

California is a blue state. Are you saying that the CA dems are fear mongers? I don't think so.

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. All Californians are Dems?

Gee I guess that's why they elected Arnold. :eyes:

[IndyJones]

61. The majority are, so that makes lots of them who did vote for him.

[michreject]

68. Fine upstanding citizens

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/15/national/15gangs.html

The gang, Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, was born in the Rampart district of Los Angeles and has since multiplied across the continent, involving itself in narcotics and gun trafficking, murder and prostitution, law enforcement officials said.

Many of the gang members are illegal immigrants, mostly from Latin American countries like El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala. Those arrested have a litany of criminal charges on their records, and some are immigration violators who were ordered deported but either returned to the United States or never left in the first place ....cont

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/05/dobbs.illegal/index.html


Illegal alien gang members
POSTED: 1:00 p.m. EDT, June 8, 2007
Adjust font size:
(CNN) -- These are some of the facts from tonight's broadcast that you might find interesting.

ICE (U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement) conducted a threat assessment survey of all field offices:

"The results of the assessment showed that most major metropolitan areas were experiencing a surge in gang activity. Additionally, the survey showed that membership of these violent transnational gangs was comprised largely of foreign-born nationals."

[proud2BlibKansan]

73. Here's a guy who ran from the cops and killed a mother and daughter

Second time in 10 years his careless driving caused fatalities.

http://www.kansascity.com/340/story/622072.html

Oh but he is WHITE. Guess that means all white guys are careless drivers. :eyes:

[michreject]

76. And he can be rounded up and deported

to where? Or is he in his coutry of birth?

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. I believe he is one of us American citizens

[michreject]

84. My point exactly

He has every legal right to be here. He should, if he isn't already, be in prison. The same thing cannot be said about, ***cough-cough*** "undocumented workers". They should go through the process of coming here legally.

[proud2BlibKansan]

89. There is no process for most of the immigrants who are being deported

I find it strange that so many say wait in line - when there is no line.

Or follow the rules - when the rules exclude them.

Their choice is starvation in a country with a broken economy or walking across the border and through a desert to a job that pays as much in an hour as they once made in a day.

If my family was hungry, I would walk across that border too.

[michreject]

105. Choice?

Their choice is starvation in a country with a broken economy or come across the border illegally and destroy our economy. Drive down wages. Drive up health care. Drain public services.

Some choice eh!

How about them working to fix their own economy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

113. They are poor and many are indigent

Yet you expect them to fix their own economy.

Sure. :eyes:

Hey I have an idea! Let's put our homeless people in charge of our economy! Yep, that'll work alright. :sarcasm:

[michreject]

120. No

They are poor and many are indigent
Yet you expect them to fix their own economy.

I expect them to destroy another one.............ours. Doing a damn good job of it too.

[proud2BlibKansan]

123. And you see, that's where we disagree

I see them as an asset - both culturally and economically.

[Angleae]

204. Tell that to the millions of americans

that are out of a job because of it

[High Plains]

133. Nice scape-goating.

Poor Mexicans are responsible for the state of the US economy. Right.

[michreject]

135. They contribute to the decline

Do you deny that?

[High Plains]

138. I disagree.

As far as I can tell, the impact of undocumented workers on wages is limited to a slight decline in wages for people without high school degrees.

But no one talks about the positive impact of undocumented workers. These are people who are (generally) paying payroll taxes and paying lots of indirect taxes as well. They also need shoes and food and clothes, which I assume means more jobs for people who are providing those goods.

The US economy is not a zero-sum game.

[Duke Newcombe]

140. Agreed. But this sets up an interesting dilemma.

You state that illegal immigrants yield a positive economic effect. I could argue that Corporations that hire illegal immigrants yield a positive effect by lowering labor costs, which can be reinvested or passed along to shareholders. But somehow I don't think you'd agree that is a GoodThing(tm).

So, the question: is rewarding/condoning a bad thing/a wrong/ a violation (illegal immigration) because of its perceived benefits hypocritical?

Duke

<edited for spelling>

[michreject]

150. About payroll tax

If I'm an employer that hires illegals, I collect the tax and FICA from their payroll and keep it. What can the feds do. The worker doesn't exist. It's a windfall for the employer. What do you want to bet that it's not being done.

The reason no one talks about the positive impact of undocumented workers is because there is none. It's a burden and a drain on resources.

[High Plains]

156. Someone else disagrees with you:

http://www.immigrationprocon.org/questions/immigrationeconomytaxes.html

Francine J. Lipman, MBA, LLM, Professor of Law at Chapman University School of Law, in the Spring 2006 Harvard Latino Law Review article "Taxing Undocumented Immigrants: Separate, Unequal and Without Representation," wrote:

"Undocumenteds actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services...

Each year undocumented immigrants add billions of dollars in sales, excise, property, income and payroll taxes, including Social Security, Medicare and unemployment taxes, to federal, state and local coffers. Hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants go out of their way to file annual federal and state income tax returns.

Yet undocumented immigrants are barred from almost all government benefits...Generally, the only benefits federally required for undocumented immigrants are emergency medical care, subject to financial and category eligibility, and elementary and secondary public education. Many undocumented immigrants will not even access these few critical government services because of their ever-present fear of government officials and deportation.

Undocumented immigrants living in the United States are subject to the same income tax laws as documented immigrants and U.S. citizens. However, because of their status most unauthorized workers pay a higher effective tax rate than similarly situated documented or U.S. citizens. Yet, these workers and their families use fewer government services than similarly situated documented immigrants or U.S. citizens...As a result, undocumented immigrants provide a fiscal windfall and may be the most fiscally beneficial of all immigrants."
Spring 2006, Francine J. Lipman, MBA, LLM

[proud2BlibKansan]

164. So you would be a dishonest employer?

Gee call me shocked.

About that positive aspect:

http://www.nmsu.edu/~frontera/old_1997/dec97/1297imm3.htm

http://www.ncpa.org/pd/immigrat/july97a.html

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2004-01-22-immigration_x.htm

[michreject]

183. It was a hypothetical

If I had my own business, I wouldn't hire any non US citizens.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

169. Illegal Immigrants Bolster Social Security with Billions

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/10128

QUOTE:
Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.

The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the amount of the 1980's.

In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.

In 2002 alone, the last year with figures released by the Social Security Administration, nine million W-2's with incorrect Social Security numbers landed in the suspense file, accounting for $56 billion in earnings, or about 1.5 percent of total reported wages.

Social Security officials do not know what fraction of the suspense file corresponds to the earnings of illegal immigrants. But they suspect that the portion is significant.

"Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration.

Other researchers say illegal immigrants are the main contributors to the suspense file. "Illegal immigrants account for the vast majority of the suspense file," said Nick Theodore, the director of the Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago. "Especially its growth over the 1990's, as more and more undocumented immigrants entered the work force."

UNQUOTE.

[Freddie Stubbs]

180. So, no one immigrates legally from Mexico?

:shrug:

[countryjake]

182. Ever try to move to another country without a skill?

Do some people live under rocks?

[JANdad]

223. Not Unless they have between

$50k to 100K to invest in a "challenged" neighborhood spanky...

Check the DHS website for more details...

[Fovea]

111. Their body count is still way behind

the Widestance Gang.

You want to get rid of gangs and guns?
Decriminalize Drugs, rusticate offenders to work farms.

[varelse]

228. "the Widestance Gang"

Serious topic and excellent retort, but still that has me :rofl:

[Triana]

211. We have increased gang activity in my area due to illegals...

...sorry but true.

[LanternWaste]

70. So there'd be no murders if ...

So there'd be no murders if there were no undocumented workers? Otherwise, what's the precise and relevant point of bringing up a crime by an undocumented worker...?


This Texas boy has a sneaking suspicion you're simply full of it (it=BS). :rofl:

[orleans]

205. how do these people get put in prison if they are here illegally?

why are they not just deported?

[Richard Steele]

201. Yeah, a luxury you certainly enjoy, Ms "exceeding the speed limit doesn't crowd the Emergency rooms"

:eyes:

[sudopod]

207. "Exceeding the speed limit doesn't crowd emergency rooms..."

O RLY?

[MercutioATC]

29. There are degrees of severity...

I hope you see the difference between murder or molestation and jaywalking.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. Murder is a capital offense

Jaywalking and crossing the border without papers are civil offenses.

Not sure about molestation. But I am assuming it is a felony, so it wouldn't be a civil offense.

[reformedrethug]

77. Thank you

While I agree the situation is sad the fact is they entered this country ilegally. If we had been protecting our borders and enforcing the immigration laws over the last 30 years we would not be having this discussion today.

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. In the 1920s Mexicans were brought north of the border

to work on farms. In the 1930s they were displaced by the dust bowl refugees. In the 1940s when so many American men were at war, more Mexican workers were imported. In the 1950s and 1960s, there were several raids of those farms to send the Mexican workers back.

It's a cycle going back decades. So no, I don't agree we wouldn't be having this discussion if we had protected our borders. For one thing, not all of them sneak across the border. To this day, many are imported by employers looking to save a buck and hire cheap laborers.

We need to decide if we want to pay even more for our produce. If so, we can send them all back and clamp down on the employers hiring them. Otherwise, the cycle continues.

[reformedrethug]

108. all that proves

is that this country has NOT been enforcing the immigration laws. For the record I welcome any and all legal immigrants with open arms, I went to school with 2 guys from Africa, I forget which countries specifically but thats not the point. These two guys were freaking super smart, hard working, and overall good guys and good friends.

And on another point, if you dont think that illegal immigration costs american jobs just go to any construction site, when I lived in Nashville 95% of the guys there were hispanic. Doing jobs that americans used to do but now have a hard time finding work because the wages have been driven lower by illegals.

[proud2BlibKansan]

116. Actually it disproves your claim

that we would not be having this discussion if we had protected our borders. It's like the drug war. Stricter enforcement just causes drug dealers to think of new ways to get around the laws.

And if it was easy to come here legally, they would.

As for the jobs, the bad guy there is the employer, not the employees. As I said, many actually help the immigrants come across the border. There is a firm here that sends a bus across the border a couple times a year. Yet ICE rarely raids there and when they do, the fine to the employer is minimal.

[reformedrethug]

158. Your last point almost proves MY point LOL

You stated that ICE rarely raids and if they do the fine is minimal, if they would enforce the law AND fine the max then maybe that employer would not be going cross border,

[backscatter712]

93. So you'd break up families and destroy lives over this?

You're a real fucking human being, you know that?

Get the fuck out of my party with that authoritarian shit.

[riverdeep]

215. The local municipalities have to do what the federal government isn't doing.

The government of Mexico is breaking up these families by continuing to promote conditions that make people flee their country. I'm sure given the choice, most would rather stay in their home country. Shouldn't our goal be to strengthen Mexico rather than serve as the world's poor house?

Our federal government caused these families pain by turning a blind eye to the businesses that continue to hire these workers.

Personally, I believe the law that states if a child is born here they automatically get citizenship is a law that needs to be repealed. Many other industrialized nations, like Germany, got rid of this law if they ever had it in the first place. This way, the entire family can be sent back, and should be.

[treestar]

176. Wrong

There is no line for unskilled workers.

Yet there is obviously a demand for them.

[Hekate]

63. Who are they? Chicken pluckers, pig dismemberers, floor moppers, Alzheimer's patients diaperers....

...tomato pickers, strawberry packers, hospital janitors ...

They grow our food and take care of our old people. For minimum wage or less. No union. No health care. Taxes are taken from their paychecks, just like the rest of us. They pay taxes every single time they buy something.

Exactly how many of those jobs would you do if you got laid off from whatever it is you do? And as little as I like to admit it, there ARE jobs that we can't get enough native-born Americans to do. Dirty jobs. Unsafe jobs. Really, really poorly paid jobs.

I live in So Cal. When I first got here nearly 30 years ago a man said something to me about the raids on immigrants that I've never forgotten. "If they ever actually managed to send all those people back where they came from, every single restaurant in this town would have to close its doors." He was referring to the busboys, dishwashers, and prep cooks, and he was right.

If we ever managed to get rid of all the "illegals" who will pick our crops? The Okies have moved on -- their descendents sure as heck aren't in the fields getting sprayed with insecticide.

The system is busted. The way we do things now is inhumane and exploitative. We must do better. But the Lou Dobbs method of ranting about the great crime wave of illegals does nothing useful, it only stirs up racism and xenophobia. It's divisive as hell. And who does that serve? -- Bush and Pals. Not the rest of us.

Hekate

[IndyJones]

64. If you don't mind my asking, where in So Cal are you?

Because here, they also take construction, landscaping, retail, restaurants, etc. Not just the jobs you describe. And those are not minimum wage jobs that Americans don't want.

I suspect it is different depending upon which county you live in.

There are employers that exploit them and I agree with you that is horribly wrong. I think that employer enforcement should be top priority.

[Hekate]

67. I live in the Central Coast, Santa Barbara vicinity. North County is still very much agribusiness...

... and strawberries are very labor-intensive. I don't think broccoli, our other big crop, needs as many people on it. There's been a lot of home building in Santa Maria in the past decade, but SB is in the South County, which has been "slow growth" for most of the time I've been here.

When my late father in law was in a nursing home he was cared for by Latinos who spoke little English. The whole direct-care-giver staff was Latino.

Fully half the kids in our county's elementary schools are of Hispanic origin.

The demographics of California are irrevocably shifting. Pretending we can just send people away or build big walls on our borders is equivalent to putting our heads in the sand. There has to be a rational solution, but it's not going to come from Bush or Lou Dobbs. Bush's friends make fortunes off doing business as usual. Dobbs makes a living off being a demagogue.

Other than personal observations, I read the LA Times and watch PBS. I'm opinionated but not totally uninformed. I'm quite sure the impact does vary by county.

Hekate

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. thank you

:applause:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

210. I dont think you realize the point youre making..

"Chicken pluckers, pig dismemberers, floor moppers, Alzheimer's patients diapers, tomato pickers, strawberry packers, hospital janitors..."

Many of these jobs used to be jobs of people in the middle class it has been shown time and time again that the effect of Illegal immigration is depressed wages which *most* hurts the working poor and lower middle class.

"For minimum wage or less. No union. No health care."

Yes they undermine unions and wages, they add to an already straining health care system..

"ARE jobs that we can't get enough native-born Americans to do. Dirty jobs. Unsafe jobs. Really, really poorly paid jobs. "

The last part is the driving factor, and when you depress a wage far enough people will stop doing it. I have a nice comfy chair I sit in for eight hours, a relaxed working environment, I place I rather like... If you lower my wage enough Ill leave in a second. People traditionally worked unsafe, dirty jobs.. I was a way to go from poverty to the middle class in a generation or so.

""If they ever actually managed to send all those people back where they came from, every single restaurant in this town would have to close its doors." He was referring to the busboys, dishwashers, and prep cooks, and he was right."

Well not if they did not start people at what is the equivalent of less than half the 1980 minimum wage. Im sure they would find people willing to work for that..

[Hekate]

221. I strongly believe in labor unions, Dad. Auto workers and all kinds of heavy industrial workers...

...became middle class because of the labor unions. Now the jobs and the unions are gone. Even a lot of the pensions are gone because management raided the bank before they took their golden parachutes and jumped.

I'm tired, and I'll start repeating myself soon, so I recommend my several other posts in this thread.

But here's a salient point I will repeat about cheap labor from Mexico (leaving out the rest of South and Central America for the moment) -- I have long believed there must be some kind of "gentlemen's agreement" between the governments of Mexico and the US, because the illegal immigrant worker issue has never even come close to being permanently solved. Instead, unions are broken, mega-corporations make fortunes off cheap labor from Mexico and falling wages here, and Mexico avoids another revolution by having a safety valve, plus millions of dollars are sent home every year to families.

What a coincidence. How convenient for all concerned (except the workers, who are screwed).

Every so often the LA Times runs another story about dock worker jobs opening up. I could write that story in my sleep by now. A handful of jobs open up, say a hundred. Job applicants line up for blocks, say two thousand. Men, women, young, middle aged, black, white, brown.

The inescapable conclusion is that Americans want to work, and work hard, but they somehow have this idea they should make a living wage.

I think you and I probably have quite a few points of agreement.

'Nite.

Hekate

[riverdeep]

216. Don't be so sure Americans won't do those jobs.

Americans take on jobs like fishing on Alaskan boats, one of the most dangerous jobs. It's also one of the most profitable for unskilled people. Especially with a downturn in the economy, more and more people would be willing to take on these jobs. The pay would rise, a good thing to those who care about Americans. The cost of labor would rise, but with federal laws, they would rise everywhere in America, thus providing no competitive advantage between states. Finally, the cost to the consumer would rise. So be it. If treating the American workers with dignity and providing them with safe working environments is more expensive, it is worth it.

These jobs that are now nightmares, would become less so because things are now out in the open. People could unionize, OSHA would have opportunities to enter and inspect, etc. I'm not saying it would go from nightmare to great immediately or to great at all in some cases, but the conditions would improve.

[Ellen Forradalom]

91. Newsflash: Large Hispanic settlement in the midwest

in recent years, often near meatpacking facilities.

[MADem]

4. They need those jobs for the "downsized" citizenry, you see.

Gotta keep those employment figures looking good. So it's no longer a cube rat job, and now you're flipping burgers or mopping floors...at least you're working!

In recession and depression, if you have ANY job, you're better off than those who have none. And this country isn't in the job creation business. We've been exporting them the last eight years...

[MercutioATC]

13. They should issue U.S.-born children U.S. passports.

The families that are deported can choose to leave their children with legal U.S. residents or take them back to their country of origin and that child, being a U.S. citizen, would be free to return when they chose.

Anchor babies are NOT a reason to allow illegals to remain in this country.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. Anchor babies is such an offensive term

They are children.

About your idea. Would you volunteer to take in some of these children?

[MercutioATC]

15. Of course they are...they're also "anchors" that some illegals use to stay in this country

...and I was kinda thinking that the parents would leave them with legal U.S. resident relatives, if at all.

Who in their right mind would leave their child to a stranger?

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. They rarely deport both parents

But I still want an answer to my question. Would you take one of these children in?

[MercutioATC]

19. No, I wouldn't.

I'm 40 years old and have a 17-year-old son.

I'm through raising children (I do, of course, still parent my son...but he'll be on his own soon).

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. Thanks for the honest answer

[IndyJones]

21. I'll answer for myself...

No. They should go with their parents and remain a family unit, IMO. But if they want to leave their citizen child here with someone who can pay and be responsible for the child(ren), their education, medical bills, etc., I can understand their doing that.

[IndyJones]

18. I can't imagine anyone would want to leave their child with a stranger

so they are better off taking them home to Mexico with them and re entering legally like those who are in line waiting for citizenship.

I don't think this type of step up is happening in Southern California, is it? Many are going back to Mexico because the work just isn't here.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. Well since the vast majority aren't from Mexico

I don't think that's where they go when they are deported. More like Honduras, Guatemala, Dominican Republic. :)

[IndyJones]

28. In So Cal, the vast majority are from Mexico.

Same with the other border states that share borders with Mexico.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. I don't live in southern California

[silverojo]

43. That explains why you don't get it.

If you had to live among illegals, you'd grasp the situation better.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. I spend every working day with them

for over 20 years now. That's how I know where they come from and don't just assume they are all Mexicans.

So yeah, I get it.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

98. BUt you don't get that the situation is causing much more of a problem in California

than in Kansas.

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. To quote Dick Cheney: SO?

Does that mean it's okay to split up families in CA but not in KS?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

110. no straw men please. Made a simple statement. Take it at face value.

btw, By your definition, your opinions cannot be facts either, since not everyone in Kansas agrees with them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

112. How is that a straw man?

And how do you know it is a bigger problem in CA?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

115. #1) Look it up if you aren't sure what it means.

#2) a. because of personal experiences in California, b. being in close contact with friends in law enforcement and medical profession in border towns, c. keeping up with news stories, and personal research

[proud2BlibKansan]

117. Have you researched both states?

Or just California?

How about Iowa? Nebraska? There are large immigrant communities in many midwestern states.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

119. Bait and switch. That's illegal, you know.

LOL. I got into this with you several years ago...now I remember why I stopped corresponding with you. I LIVE in a midwestern state with a large immigrant population, getting larger all the time. thanks for telling me, though. I research the issue as it affects individual states in relation to each other and to the entire country as a whole. I don't have a PHd but have a pretty well-rounded viewpoint and base of knowledge.
buh bye now!

[backscatter712]

94. Breaking up families again. You're actually for that.

I can't believe we even have to have this argument on this board.

They illegally entered this country? Fine. Then slap them with a fine, or even give them a few days in jail, then they can stay. Breaking up families and taking parents away from their children is just plain fucking inhuman.

[Zywiec]

124. "Taking parents away from their children is just plain fucking inhuman"

You mean the children are not allowed to go with their parents?

Are we holding them hostage here? I'm certainly against keeping children in the US against their will while their parents live somewhere else.

[proud2BlibKansan]

127. Actually only the undocumented person is deported

Your tax dollars won't cover the cost of sending the entire family back home. So yes, in a sense, they are being held hostage until they can afford to leave.

[Zywiec]

129. I'm sure there are many organizations

that would raise money so these families could be reunited.

It sounds like something both Democrats and Republicans could agree on.

[proud2BlibKansan]

141. There are also organizations that provide sanctuary

That movement has really grown recently.

[Zywiec]

166. So families are now going to move into churches?

What kind of existence is that?

[proud2BlibKansan]

167. A protected existence

[Zywiec]

168. Can you give me an example? n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

199. They live on church property and the church members take care of

their day to day needs.

[Rolandosoto]

20. Very sad

families are better off united.

[JOE-CLEVELAND]

24. 3800 plus one more that should be gone

cmon... give me a break, CHARITY STARTS AT HOME; these people have to go. and you can go with them if you dont like it;

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Well you are going to last a long time here

:rofl:

[Bill McBlueState]

145. He might.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of DUers with 1000+ posts who share his point of view.

[pop goes the weasel]

31. how about you go?

You seem like the kind of guy who'd like the social policies in Myanmar.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. LOL

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

65. Are you lost?

[Richard Steele]

71. Go disable a profile.

nm

[LanternWaste]

86. How about charity starting with the neediest first

How about charity starting with the neediest first rather than starting with merely the most convenient...?

[Quantess]

30. I'm crying.

Actually, no, I'm not.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. No problemo

I'll cry for you.

[Quantess]

42. ...sniffle..

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. No need

I told you I would cry for you.

Go back to whatever you were doing. :hi:

[sudopod]

103. It's bad enough that there are assholes out there.

Why do they feel the need to demonstrate their "DUR HUR TUFF GUY" dumbass attitudes here?

Do they want a cookie? An autographed portrait of Tom Tancredo? What?

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=walmart

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## DON'T DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

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This week is our second quarter 2008 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
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[silverojo]

41. Cry me a freakin' river!

Criminals are always separated from their families when the law apprehends them.

Why aren't you crying for the children of the crack whores, drug dealers, murderers, and other violent criminals who are arrested every day? When those people are put into jail or prison, that breaks up families, too--often for years, or even for life. So what are we supposed to do, not arrest anybody, just so their families can stay intact?

Bottom line: If you do something that's illegal, you risk having your family broken up. If you don't want that to happen to your family, OBEY THE LAW.

Let's have some sympathy for the law-abiding people in every country who are being screwed over by Bush's policies, instead of crying over criminals who knew the risks they were taking when they broke the law.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. They aren't criminals

They are human beings who <I'm sure this will SHOCK you> just want to feed their families.

[Duke Newcombe]

62. If you broke a law...doesn't that make you by definition a "criminal"?

Regardless of the necessity or relative severity of the law broken?

Mind you, I do feel for the families-they were failed 22 years ago by a stupid Reagan amnesty decision that gave a green-light for another flood of illegal immigration, based on the unspoken compact that "we don't _really_ care about our borders, or who comes here", compounded by failure to reform a cryptic and broken immigration system where people who play by the rules are suckers. We as citizens, and the illegal immigrants are paying the price now.

At the end of the day, though, folks who enter our nation without utilizing the proper mechanisms are criminals-flat out. We can discuss the relative severity of their crime, but not the fact that a crime has occurred.

I think folks who get up in arms about this being pointed out need to channel their anger towards pushing folks to fix our horrid immigration processes.

Duke

<edited for spelling and clarity>

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. Many of us who are angry are indeed demanding the system be fixed

But the health and welfare of human beings is a more pressing and immediate need.

[Duke Newcombe]

96. Again...no argument from me.

There is a definite social and family toll taken because of the deportations. The answer to this IMHO, isn't however "stop deporting illegal immigrants". The answer is really "comprehensive" immigration policy reform--not the simplistic "defend our borders" solution, nor ONLY the "just let them become citizens" false solution. Folks on our side of the aisle usually hawk "comprehensive" reform as more of the latter, and less of the former. This to me is a non-starter.

Having said that, can we at least agree, whether you believe it to be a serious one or not, that illegal entry into the US is in fact a crime?


Duke

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. No more of a crime than a traffic offense you get a ticket for

That's not my opinion, BTW, that's the law.

So no I guess we can't agree on that. Perhaps we need to lobby to have the law changed? But then can we afford the increased number of border patrol we would need to enforce the law? Do we have enough jail cells? Cause regardless of the legal system and penalties, these immigrants will keep on crossing the border.

IMO, if you really want to stop it, we need to provide aid to the countries in Central America and STIFF fines for employers who hire the undocumented. Fair wage legislation would help as well.

[Duke Newcombe]

109. At matter of degree, yes...but still a violation of law...a crime.

I'm perceiving your answer as a non-admission admission-I know that the classification-a civil violation-is what it is, but a law has been violated nonetheless. It seems to me (I could be wrong about this) that the word "crime" conjures up some negative connotations, and therefore you're loathe to apply it to illegal immigrants. I understand.

And yes, comprehensive reform would include stiff fines on employers-the raids that have been conducted recently in the Midwest haven't gone far enough, unless I missed the plant managers and the CEOs being led off in handcuffs as well. I personally would make every effort to bankrupt any business that knew or should have known it was hiring illegal immigrants. After the first few companies fell, the message would be sent. So I'll take you agreement where I can find it. :)

One thing puzzles me, proud2Blib: If you question whether we can afford enough Border Patrol agents to enforce the law at the border (as I believe you may be suggesting, correct me if I'm wrong), how exactly do you propose we pay for more foreign aid to Central America? And with vast mineral and energy reserves, beachfront property, and younger populations, is there anything you believe that these countries can/should do on their own to help themselves, which would have the additional benefit of helping us stem the flow of illegal immigrants?

Duke

[proud2BlibKansan]

122. We (meaning the US) screwed them

I find it no more fair to ask CA countries to repair damage caused by NAFTA and CAFTA than it is to ask Iraq to fix Iraq. We were the perpetrators. As to how to pay for it, that hasn't been a problem when it comes to waging an illegal war. This country usually manages to find funds to pay for programs the nayayers are so sure we can't afford. Helping CA countries tap into their own natural resources is a great idea.

I also think if we want to enforce the law at the border then we need a fortified border. That means an Israeli type wall and lots of uniformed agents. Personally, I don't agree with this strategy but if we want to toughen up our borders we need the wall and the armed agents. No, I am not sure we can afford it. But again, if enough people demand it, it will happen.

[Duke Newcombe]

126. I'm having trouble agreeing with where you place blame.

Corruption in those countries was rampant before the US meddled, and is still rampant now. You need a generational aspect change to correct that. We're not responsible for that, and we cannot force them to abandon it. In the past, your argument had more strength, but Hugo Chavez and others would disagree with you. Change is possible if the people want it.

Can we help with fair trade and guidance? Sure, but at the end of the day, they'll have to use their raw materiel (both tangible and human) to fix their problems. Unless we install a puppet government in say, Mexico, and go and pump their oil out of the ground, seize their arable land, and run things for them, doling out a fraction of their own nation's national resources back to the people. But that hasn't worked so well in the past-it smacks a bit of colonialism.

Duke

[proud2BlibKansan]

130. And I believe Hugo Chavez would speak out, as I have,

about the inhumanity of the system. Yes, people are capable of change but they need resources to get there.

You make a great point. I don't think we need to have a puppet governement in Mexico, for example. And we certainly don't need to make them a colony.

So the question is how much do we owe them. And sadly, we don't have a good track record here.

[Duke Newcombe]

131. Agreed...how much support, and in what form...

is the question. I just wanted to make sure we get away from the "it's AmuriKKKa's fault" narrative all too popular here (not to say we don't, and sometimes still do things we think "other" countries do). This issue is too important to the future of our nation to allow politicians and special interests to indulge in "one up/one down" silliness regarding illegal immigration.

So in ways, we agree on some key points. Just shows my meds are working :)




Duke

[proud2BlibKansan]

139. And maybe I need to borrow some of those meds from you

:)

[EFerrari]

172. But it is America's fault. Policies have consequences

and the volume of illegal immigration to the north is a consequence. You can't enact trade agreements that throw small farmers off of their land and expect them to simply disappear. You can't back the rightwing elite locusts in Mexico because they play ball with American corporate interests and expect social welfare. You can't subvert democratic elections in Latin America and expect thriving democracy.

Good God -- thriving democracy in Mexico, for example, is the LAST thing Wall Street wants.

Yes, it is very much America's fault.

[Duke Newcombe]

186. I'm sorry you feel that way. Then they are doomed.

If they are that dependent upon Americans to "do the right thing"/"not do the wrong thing", then they are not ready for self-determination and will forever be slaves. This is the natural consequence of the "It's America's fault" narrative. If there is no self-determination, no way to correct things without an affirmative action by the US, the Central American is screwed but good.

I'm thinking you may be conflating US Policy, and the foreign governments ham-fisted or greed-motivated reaction to it. I place the actions such as the displacement of small farmers and indigenous peoples squarely on the shoulders of their governments and landed gentry--not the US. You obviously have a different take, so we'll agree to disagree on this.

Question: Does Venezuela disprove this assertion, or is Venezuela an anomaly? It seems (rightly or wrongly), Hugo Chavez is "cleaning things up" quite nicely, if you wish to call it that.

Duke

[EFerrari]

194. This is not about a "feeling" but about the history of the last four hundred years.

I'm not conflating anything. The US corporate interests need clients in Latin America to move their agenda forward. That's not conflation, that's the collaboration of the oligarchies over the region.

And, why do you think BushCo is so bent on taking Chavez down, up to and including assasination? Because he represents unity in that region, trade and independence.

The bottom line is, he's a huge threat to the raping of Latin America that American corporate interests have enjoyed for many, many years. They hate that.

[riverdeep]

217. With all due respect, you may want to look into the history of the fruit empires.

The US basically started proxy wars for the benefit of industrialists. US policy very definitely has a part to play. In addition, the corruption that occurs in many governments today, is directly tied to US drug laws. Decriminalizing drugs in this country would eradicate many of the criminal gangs that hold sway in these foreign governments.

[EFerrari]

170. We did install a puppet government in Mexico for all purposes.

The progressive that wanted to take on the nation's problems won. BushCo joined forces with the Mexican oligarchy and made sure he wasn't seated.

Latin America needs no "guidance" for us any more than Iraq does. And it's difficult to think of a single government in that region right now that is as corrupt as our own. Paternalism softens reality but it can't actually change it.

[Duke Newcombe]

187. I'm not sure this is correct.

Unless there is tangible proof that there was vote tampering (above and beyond the unfortunately "normal" vote fixing/tampering that goes on in Mexico), we will never know whether it prevented regime change or not. I'm believing that the vote totals would have had to require tampering/fixing/voter suppression of gargantuan scale to achieve the result, so I'm not buying the Mexican version of Bush v. Gore election stealing I'm hearing from you.

Duke

[EFerrari]

192. It was all over the news for WEEKS. The google is your friend.

[Duke Newcombe]

197. I'm aware of the assertions in some news venues...

...it's just that, after gathering info from many sources, I've formulated an opinion that it didn't happen.

That is all.

And I know that I don't have to tell anyone that Googling something doesn't mean that the info you gathered is true, correct, or complete. Else, any NewsMax or WorldNetDaily article someone comes in here with via Google is all good, right?

Duke

[EFerrari]

214. I spend a little time reading the DU Election Reform forum.

We watched the whole train wreck, from the moment Bush sent strategists and speech writers to help the conservative sellout to the moment he went on the air to congratulate the "winner" before the vote was certified and when it was clear his guy had lost.

Hundreds of thousands if not millions of people took to the streets, and not just for a day or two, but for weeks. They knew they were being robbed. The inaugural couldn't even be held in public because the people were furious.

And for weeks, all Americans heard was Bush's fake congratulations. In order to know what was going on, one had to make an effort to tap into the independent media. It was a lot like the non coverage of Ohio, actually, where there was also rioting at the statehouse on election night 2004 and barely a mention of it anywhere. That's how they do things downtown.

[treestar]

179. Are you saying you'd respect a mere immigration law

If violating it would help your children?

Are you really saying that?

Most parents would do anything for their children.

Yeah, and we have had amnesties before, because it was the sensible thing to do.

What we really need is to reform the idiotic 1950s era law and quit going on about people who violate immigration laws as if they were the same as real criminals.

What about US citizens who sell drugs, assault people, etc? They're not scarier?

[Duke Newcombe]

189. I think we want the same thing.

However, I'd submit that there is bandwidth available to secure our borders and fight illegal immigration, AND go after US citizens who sell drugs, assault people, etc. There only has to be will to do both (as well as, yes, reform of the way we admit people into our nation, and for what purposes).

You indicate willingness to do only one. I'm not sure how holistic an approach that is.

Duke

[Duke Newcombe]

191. I may violate the immigration law...

...to feed my kids, but I'd be under no illusions that it was okay, that I did not in fact break the law, or that the government who's borders I had violated didn't have every right to track me down and kick me out if they could find me.

Now. Did you get the information you expected by posing that hypothetical? If you were similarly situated, would you NOT expect, nay, would you actually be ANGERED that the government was looking to kick you out?

Duke

[pop goes the weasel]

49. how about some sympathy for NAFTA victims?

After the passage of NAFTA, the US was able to dump agricultural staples on Mexico at cut rates. This has had the effect of making it impossible for farm families to continue to survive without at least one family member finding work elsewhere. And this hasn't been a problem for just Mexico. Farmers throughout Meso-America have had a hard time competing. Add to the economic troubles the dislocations caused by decades of military repression and the violence of the drug wars, what do you expect people to do? Stay home and die? The immigration problem is a North American problem. Closing borders won't fix it. And all walling ourselves in will do is concede that we are no longer a nation and have become a prison.

[IndyJones]

52. Maybe the NAFTA victims should sneak into Mexico for freebies...

Oh yeah, Mexico doesn't like illegal immigrants.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. What freebies?

Well come to think of it, starving is probably free in Mexico. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

66. Some sympathy for the law-abiding people in every country who are being screwed over by Bush.

Good call! Now, work up a sweat and figure out that the people coming here have been screwed by those policies in their own country.

And then, swear to me, that if your family was hungry because the US of A fucked with your democracy and killed your economy and your job, swear to me that you wouldn't do the same to alleviate their hunger.

Broke the law, my @ss. The US has ridden roughshod over democracy in Latin America. And, no, "those people" can't fix their own country while YOUR tax dollars are funding their oppression.

[Zywiec]

79. "The US of A fucked with your democracy and killed your economy and your job"

So for revenge I guess they come and fuck with our democracy, economy and jobs?

What I don't understand is: if this country is sooooo bad that people whine here daily about our problems. Wouldn't you discourage people you care about from coming here?

Or is it true that there are places far, far, far worse then the US of A and we are lucky to be here?

P.S. You don't have to answer the last question, as I know it will cause you pain

[LanternWaste]

81. No... not for revenge. For survival.

"So for revenge I guess they come and fuck with our democracy, economy and jobs?"

No... not for revenge. For survival.

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. How are they fucking with our democracy?

Is this a voter ID thread now? :rofl:

[Dreamer Tatum]

114. Let me get this straight.

Illegal immigration exists because Bush "fucked with" their democracy and their economy...so they HAVE to
come here.

Rarely is a lack of critical thinking skills so evident. Do you mean that there was no illegal immigration before late January, 2001?
Do you mean that the world's economies were in perfect, democratic order before late January, 2001? Do you mean that the microfoundations
of household decisions to risk everything to enter the US illegally are fundamentally based on George W. Bush?

What a chauvinistic, provincial, and self-contradictory view of the world you have: your hatred of US policy and policymakers causes
you to blame them for the woes of the man in other countries, whose only recourse in your mind is to pack up and move to the source of
their problems? You should think carefully about what you're implying about illegals, because YOU (yes, YOU) are feeding into the stereotype
of the hapless, feckless, directionless guy on the corner when you imply they're all just GWB's pawns. These are people with families, and if you ask them what they want and why they're here, I doubt "Bush" has anything to do with it.

I live in Southern California. Before that, I lived in Southern Arizona. I have experienced first-hand the effects of illegal immigration. My opinion
is that the effects are a mixed bag: there is no question that they clog emergency rooms and hospitals. That can't be credibly disputed. If they rent or own, they contribute to property and sales tax rolls, and I'll tell you this: I have never, ever seen groups of unemployed white, black, or asian men congregated on streetcorners looking for work (anyone who thinks that's a myth, I'll post as many pics as you like). I have never, ever had a white, black, or asian woman knock on my door with homemade food for sale. Wake up at 6am on a Saturday and make the rounds of the Southern California garage sales: you'll see scads of families shopping. Not for kitschy, ironic clutter from the 70s, but for children's clothes and shoes.
Wake up the next morning and go to the Catholic churches and tell me what you see.

The point is that these are intelligent, largely honorable people who want to work and assimilate, but who also respond to incentives put in front of them. That makes us take the good with the bad. I think it's mostly good. To treat them as sheep who obey the wavings of some politician's cigar is to underestimate and dehumanize them.

[EFerrari]

153. *You* assume this started with Bush. In fact, it did not.

It's been US policy ever since the first American interest decided to go to Latin America and do business. In fact, because BushCo has been so obsessed with the Middle East, Latin America is enjoying a democratizing wave of liberalism.

You assume a lot, btw, and not very well.

[galledgoblin]

44. and NAFTA just turned 14 years 5 months and 16 days old

such a hideous baby

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. Worst thing Clinton did

And he did so many good things. But NAFTA was really nasty. I doubt he realized what was going to happen, but still, it was a bad move.

[galledgoblin]

54. I hope to God that we see it killed or better HEAVILY rewritten if we take the White House (n/t)

[riverdeep]

218. He realized.

He was DLC. The Telecommunications Act. The Welfare Reform Act. I could go on. Times were relatively good, and a Dem was in the White House and the Pubs were after him, so we kept silent so as to not give them more ammo.

[dorktv]

59. Sheriff Joe Arpiao of Maricopa County recently said about a

drag he did in his area (a very fancy upscale area) "oh I did not know they got up here."

:eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. Did I hear someone was running against him?

[Rosemary2205]

78. What kind of man refuses to take his wife and kids home?

He is either a selfish asshat for leaving the poor little wife to fend for herself in a foreign country rather than take his family back home with him, or else he knows his family would be far better off without him here in the US rather than take them home with him.

Either way, I don't see how the US gov't is to blame other than shame on them for not securing the borders BEFORE the illegals came in and avoiding this problem to begin with.

[michreject]

132. He'll leave them here

because he knows that he's coming right back. Illegally of course.

[proud2BlibKansan]

148. He is being flown home by ICE

They don't let him bring his family along. :eyes:

[Rosemary2205]

202. That's not how deportation works

An illegal is arrested. If they have no other warrants or criminal record - nothing other than being illegal, it's extremely unlikely they'll be faced with deportation to begin with because of the laws passed in 1996 and upheld by the Supremes.... either way, they are given a deportation hearing date and access to legal counsel. Some bolt and never show, some show and try to work the system to gain legal status because of their children. They don't yank a father off the streets the throw him on a plane. He had time to gather his family and get back home the same way he got here.

I have yet to hear a single case of an otherwise law abiding illegal being yanked off the street and shipped back home without the time to gather their belongings and consult with legal counsel. If it's happening I'd love to see the links, or have some sort of source to contact because the Supremes clearly stated that cannot happen.

[EFerrari]

154. Are you serious? He is in CUSTODY.

He probably didn't even get A PHONE CALL, let alone the chance to get his family together.

And you're blaming HIM? That's rich.

[Rosemary2205]

203. Yes I do blame him.

He was not FORCED to come here illegally. There is a legal path into this country. AND no one is deported without a hearing and legal counsel. There is always time to arrange to get one's family back to the home country, and immigration lawyers are versed and motivated to tap into charities that make sure families who want to stay together are reunited back home.

[EFerrari]

212. I believe you have not kept current with the tactics that ICE is using.

There is NOT always time or opportunity to keep your family together. Good grief. I translated for these people for years and they were treated badly then. Sometimes, they were locked up for months in county jails with no lawyer, no way to contact their family, no nothing. Now, it's just a new level of horror.

It's easy to sit where you sit and preach about legal immigration, isn't it? If my kids were hungry, I'd damn well do whatever it took to get food in them, legal or not. That's a level of want most Americans can't even imagine.

[Rosemary2205]

227. Huh?

Again, if illegals are being held for months, no legal representation, no contact with family, and then sent back without a hearing then I really like to know exactly where that is and what is being done to stop it, because the Supremes made it very clear that cannot happen.

[EFerrari]

229. I worked as a Spanish interpreter in all the jails in San Francisco County.

You go for it.

ETA: I can't believe the disbelief. I translated for mostly men who begged me to get word to their families that they were alive because they'd been held for months incommunicado. And that was ten years before ICE was even formed.

[ShaneGR]

82. Ok, I have a question about this, legal vs illegal....

If these people had followed regular procedure in immigrating to the US, how long would they have had to wait?

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. 8 to 10 years, according to my attorney friend

And many wouldn't be allowed to come at all. We have a quota system and once that quota is met, the line is stopped. That's why I said in another response there is no line.

If you are European, there is no wait and no quota. If you are from Central America, you wait. Same with China and several other countries.

In my city, there is an 18 month wait just to get an appointment to meet with immigration to begin the legal process of becoming a citizen.

The system is badly broken.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

92. If your European there is no wait or no quota...

Funny I've got friends that are Irish born and they don't seem any closer to getting their immigration status changed than the people from Mexico and Central America. In fact quite of few of them have given up and gone back to Ireland.

[Zywiec]

99. Please no facts allowed

How else can we continue to blame it on our racist system?

Everyone is allowed to come in except the "brown people". That's the mantra they continue to use.

[JANdad]

224. You were saying...

"For DV-2009, natives of the following countries are not eligible to apply because they sent a total of more than 50,000 immigrants to the U.S. over the period of the previous five years:
BRAZIL, CANADA, CHINA (mainland-born), COLOMBIA, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, ECUADOR, EL SALVADOR, GUATEMALA, HAITI, INDIA, JAMAICA, MEXICO, PAKISTAN, PHILIPPINES, PERU, POLAND, RUSSIA, SOUTH KOREA, UNITED KINGDOM (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and VIETNAM. Persons born in Hong Kong SAR, Macau SAR and Taiwan are eligible."

http://travel.state.gov/pdf/2009DVInstructions.pdf

[proud2BlibKansan]

104. My friend from the Czeck Republic didn't have to wait at all

She came over, applied for citizenship and became a legal American in less time than other immigrants spend waiting to apply.

Maybe it depends on which European country. I will ask my attorney friend.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

118. Same thing for my English cousin, brought here by a corp. to work

process taking forever. Our own traditional allies can't get in, what's with that?

[Cronus Protagonist]

159. Yeah, that line is total bullshit

It's even harder to get into this country from Europe unless you have a special Visa, which also applies to Mexicans and others from Central and South America. As far as I can tell, and I should know because I went though it, it isat least the same, perhaps harder in some cases, for a European to get papers than it is for someone from "south of the border".

[michreject]

134. You said upthread there wasn't a line

We have a quota system and once that quota is met, the line is stopped.

Which is it. Yes or no or whichever suits your agenda at the time.

[proud2BlibKansan]

149. Once the quota is met the line is stopped

I meant exactly what I said. Meaning there is no line once the quota is met. What is it about that statement that you don't understand?

[michreject]

151. Your quote in post 89

"I find it strange that so many say wait in line - when there is no line."

Nothing in the reply about a quota.

[proud2BlibKansan]

160. I will type really slowly so maybe you will understand this time

There is no line because there is no more room for immigrants from that particular country. Our immigration policy says so many can enter and once that number is reached, no more may come. And it can be as long as 10 years before new immigrants are allowed in.

[michreject]

162. You think that Gov't regulations regarding entry is wrong?

If an area has more people looking for jobs that there are jobs, the wages drop. This is simple economics. This is why there are controls.

[proud2BlibKansan]

165. I don't think it is right to base quotas on nationalities

[bonito]

97. I won't bitch about Illegal aliens but...

I have seen many legal tradespeople that have worked for years put out of work because of cheap undocumented exploited labor, the bottom line seems to be not shortsightedness by concerned citizens but saving a buck by corporate interest at the expense of legal tradespeople, no different than outsourcing work visas etc.
What we need is union representation for the working class imo.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

100. That would be too much like right though.

Face it these people are being used by these employers. The bottom line to them is the not so almighty dollar....

[Hekate]

125. Bingo. Reagan broke the back of the unions, and we need the unions or we are all brought down. nt

[EFerrari]

157. Yes. And that's why unions like the SEIU make common cause

with undocumented workers. It's a powerful move that puts all workers on the same side where they belong.

[riverdeep]

219. Construction and carpentry used to be a job that could support Americans.

We need jobs that don't require the use of high intelligence, because not everyone is cut out for that. Construction used to be that kind of job. You could support a family on that kind of job. A high school dropout could go to work, start out as a grunt, work their way to foreman, and raise a family. Now, those jobs are off limits to Americans. An entire industry just gone.

Now, carpentry is going the same way.

[hokies4ever]

121. What city are you talking about?

[Hekate]

128. Time for a Woody Guthrie tribute to Deportees....

DEPORTEE (PLANE WRECK AT LOS GATOS)
1948

The crops are all in and the peaches are rott'ning,
The oranges piled in their creosote dumps2;
They're flying 'em back to the Mexican border
To pay all their money to wade back again

CHORUS:
Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita,
Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria;
You won't have your names when you ride the big airplane,
All they will call you will be "deportees"
My father's own father, he waded that river,
They took all the money he made in his life;
My brothers and sisters come working the fruit trees,
And they rode the truck till they took down and died.

Some of us are illegal, and some are not wanted,
Our work contract's out and we have to move on;
Six hundred miles to that Mexican border,
They chase us like outlaws, like rustlers, like thieves.

We died in your hills, we died in your deserts,
We died in your valleys and died on your plains.
We died 'neath your trees and we died in your bushes,
Both sides of the river, we died just the same.

The sky plane caught fire over Los Gatos Canyon,
A fireball of lightning, and shook all our hills,
Who are all these friends, all scattered like dry leaves?
The radio says, "They are just deportees"

Is this the best way we can grow our big orchards?
Is this the best way we can grow our good fruit?
To fall like dry leaves to rot on my topsoil
And be called by no name except "deportees"?


Lyrics as reprinted in Pete Seeger (ed.), The Nearly Complete Collection of Woody Guthrie Folk Songs, London, 1973, pp. 24-25
© 1961 Ludlow Music, Inc.

[countryjake]

174. Sing it again...

Arlo Guthrie & Emmylou Harrris - Deportees
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN3HTdndZec

and again...

Bob Dylan & Joan Baez - Deportee (1976)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz9okKRhimE

[Hekate]

181. Woody Guthrie had more soul than all our MSM and Repub politicians combined

Thanks for the links -- the Arlo and Emmylou version about broke my cynical old heart.

Hekate

[Sundoggy]

136. So is it required to support uncontrolled illegal immigration

to be a member here? Just curious.

Or does it automatically make me a despicable person to have mixed feelings here?

[Duke Newcombe]

137. Yes-to some. and Yes-to others.

This appears to be one of the subjects around here where having a "nuanced" view is discouraged. Don't let it get you down.

Duke

[lumberjack_jeff]

147. No, it's not.

Just be prepared to get the kind of abuse I get.

My feeling is that the democratic party exists for the sole and exclusive purpose of promoting the economic, physical and social interests of middle-and working class americans.

Unregulated immigration demonstrably harms those interests for the benefit of USA, inc.

Others feel that Mexican citizens have a human right to your job.

[Hekate]

152. No one in their right mind wants "uncontrolled" immigration of any sort. But our current system...

...is broken, exploitative, and inhumane. There has to be a better way.

Bush and his friends make fortunes off business as usual, and Lou Dobbs makes a living off being a racist, xenophobic demagogue.

Other than that, I've said my piece in other posts in this thread.

Welcome to DU. :hi:

Hekate

[EFerrari]

155. I don't think so, but dehumanizing people is frowned upon.

lol

[treestar]

178. No, but we should have a more rational law

It's only illegal because we haven't reformed the law to reflect modern realities.

It's impractical, too. Many of these individuals will just return - they got here illegally once, they can do it again.

Or others will come.

It's just stupid. Let the market decides. That's what conservatives say for everything else.

[proud2BlibKansan]

200. It helps to understand it isn't a black and white issue

There are a lot of gray areas.

[riverdeep]

220. No, not required.

But be prepared for a lot of guilt trips and accusations of heartlessness.

[lumberjack_jeff]

142. Now implement better enforcement to assure that these tragedies happen less frequently.

The children are american citizens. They are entitled to the protection of our laws.

Their parents are not citizens and have have broken our law. The children of parents who are convicted of a crime can either live with a family member or enter foster care.
In this case, it's not nearly so draconian - they have a third option, the kids can go home with mom and dad and return as citizens when they are adults. Those families need not be broken up, they can live with their parents, in the parents home country.

I'm not outraged at all that INS may be doing its job in some small measure.

The tragedy is that we, meaning our immigration enforcement, allowed the situation to occur in the first place.

There are 12 million people here illegally. If INS were given a mandate to enforce the law within the next year, they would need to deport 10X that many every single day.

[ismnotwasm]

146. I have a friend

Who wife is going to go back to Mexico to reapply for citizenship. It's a long story, but it will take months. They're one of those "perfect" families you see from time to time, and he adores being a father and showing picture of his kids. Hell, he sets videos of his family vacations to his favorite music.

I'm with you, I'll cry for the families.

[yardwork]

163. Horrible. This is so sad and wrong.

[mitchum]

185. Anyone who supports illegal immigration is a DUPE of the overlords...

the "golden streets of the USA" is a safety valve for corrupt governments south of us. They would much rather their underclass come to this country than rise up and overthrow the corrupt regimes "back home"
And THAT'S A FACT

[countryjake]

188. How many deaths is the Oaxaca Governor worth?...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1103-08.htm

Many of the undocumented in my county are from that region of Mexico, they are mostly native Americans, speak neither English or Spanish, and find themselves at the mercy of capitalists, everywhere.

These people are who I support, wherever they search for the hope of survival.

[Hekate]

198. I have long suspected a "gentlemen's agreement" exists between the governments of the US and Mexico

US business gets hordes of desperately poor people willing to work for low wages and Mexico gets a safety valve against another revolution.

How very convenient. What a coincidence.

Who does it serve?

Hekate

[Jack_DeLeon]

225. I know everyone blames us for the Guns causing problems in Mexico...

but IMO we really ought to be sending them more guns so that they can have a revolution and bring a real democracy where the people there have power and arent afraid.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

208. I highly doubt that.... (I call BS on thenumbers)

Your profile says your in Kansas, best case scenario you're living in Wichita (357,698) if they were deporting 3.8 thousand people per month they would be deporting more than 1% of the population per month..

If your taking the metro area youre up to about 570K and, well the math is still pretty bad..

[orleans]

209. i am really surprised at the way this thread has gone

...not what i expected to be reading here.

i guess i should know better. apparently i don't.

i think your op is very sad.

you know, we're supposed to be such a great fucking country--why can't we figure out something better for these people/families/children?

i don't know what the perfect solution is--but i know it is not what we're doing right now.

and some of these posts on this thread make it sound perfectly fine and dandy to treat these children like we treat a litter of kittens or puppies--as if separating them from their parents is no big deal ("let the kid stay here and send the parents back" crap).

(you know, i can be a really cold-hearted bitch sometimes but even i know this shit is just downright inhumane and wrong)

[EFerrari]

231. It's not DU but a measure of how successfully undocumented workers

have been dehumanized and blamed by the wingers -- how they have been scapegoated.

Where were all these nationalists when the administration was undermining democracy in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Mexico, turning Honduras into a landing strip, funding the murders in Guatemala, shoring up puppets in Mexico, Argentina, Brazil? Where were they then?

Until we object to our own government using our tax dollars to fund their cronies' business in Latin America WHILE they drive workers north, we're just useful idiots with a wallet, being made to believe that our natural allies, other workers, are our enemies. It really is that simple.

It's not about undocumented workers coming here to get work or even about the mostly small businesses that employ them. It's all about the cronyism at the highest levels of our government that support their pals at the expense of the electorate -- here AND there.

That most Americans can't see that is more an effect of believing somehow the good people of Latin America are somehow impaired than it is a cold hard look at their own government.

[riverdeep]

233. You're correct.

Most Americans have no clue about the less than noble pursuits of their government through the years and how this affects even the present climate. When they find out, they shut out the information by calling it 'blaming America'. But don't call out Americans too much, because this quality of self aggrandizement and delusion seems to be universal. It's more the exception than the rule that a nation is honest with itself. Look at Japan. It still refuses to acknowledge comfort women and until recently, denied the extent of horror of Nanking (it still doesn't, really).

That's why real immigration reform wouldn't just be about what occurs inside our borders, but what we do outside our borders as well. For the monsters in power that view the world as their own personal chess set, this isn't going to be easy to do.

All that said, the solution cannot be to continue the destabilizing flow of desperate people pouring in and looking the other way while it's happening.

[riverdeep]

222. They should be deported, but so should their children.

As stated on another post, I don't believe in anchor babies, that law needs to be repealed. If you're here illegally, and yes I will use that dreaded word 'illegal', you need to be sent back, period. What's the point of having a nation if the borders are porous? Why not just call it the North American land mass?

America needs to start thinking about what is best for itself. Some have this idea of America being a bottomless supply of wealth and opportunity and land. It's not, it's finite. Supporting illegal immigrants means that you don't support a legal American. That's really what it comes down to. It IS a zero sum game.

Some will mute the oppositions to illegals by saying we have always been a nation of immigrants. Not a good argument. This is not the nation it was a 150 years ago. We are a mature nation. We don't have the need for masses of people to settle vast land or to toil in industry. Other nations that have become mature changed their immigration policy to reflect their needs, but not us. Try moving to Germany not speaking the language, without skills, and demanding the government not only not kick you out but cater to your special needs. You wouldn't last a second. Or Canada, or even, surprise- Mexico.

Comprehensive immigration reform IS what is needed. It takes two to tango. The illegals are coming here because the demand for them is there, we need to address that demand as well, i.e. business. That's something conservatives usually shy away from. I have seen Lou Dobbs but not often because he's repetitive, and he at least does talk about business, as well. It will be painful for America. All radical change is. Prices will go up, especially food prices. You can't have everything.

I agree talk about immigration policy on the right turns ugly very quickly, but for progressives to reflexively take an opposite position just because it's not what conservatives are, is a mistake. Immigration is a huge issue, and it's real, not something just dreamed up by conservatives to get the public riled up. Ignore that reality, and don't expect to see political power for decades.

[EFerrari]

230. LOL! You don't believe in anchor babies?

So, you also repudiate the Constitution?

I love you nationalists -- who all immigrated here, every one of you. :)

[riverdeep]

232. I have nothing against immigration.

You're conflating legal and illegal immigration. My problem is with the latter. We should be fully behind the idea of taking in the best and the brightest the world has to offer. In other words, what can YOU do for US? How long do you think we can continue to take in the worlds indigent without compromising our own living standards? We should instead be focused on helping those nations to do for themselves in a multitude of ways. Starting with staying out of their affairs and exploiting their resources, and continuing with sharing technology and, on occasion-focused monetary aid. Not just giving money that gets used to fund a war lord's lavish lifestyle while he murders or exploits his own people.

The 14th amendment has different interpretations. Some say, like I take it you, that it means anyone born here is a citizen. But looking at the formation of it, it was designed to give Blacks full citizenship, not intended for the use it is now. I wouldn't be against a clarification of the amendment to settle it, since even if you interpret it the previous way, times have changed. The fact that it is an amendment meant that at one point, times changed in the past. It would, of course, be a contentious process, as any altering should be.

edit: when I said 'that law should be repealed' in the post you responded to, I misspoke. I should have said 'clarified'.

[EFerrari]

234. No, I'm not conflating anything. n/t