Polygamous Sect Fathers Demand Judge Return Seized Kids

[High Plains]

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9256669

Polygamous sect fathers demand judge return seized kids
By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 05/15/2008 06:16:04 AM MDT

Three FLDS fathers are demanding a judge in San Antonio return their children, saying Texas authorities acted in a "blunderbuss" fashion to remove them from a polygamous sect's ranch. The fathers - James Dockstader, Rulon Keate and LeLand Keate - say they all have monogamous marriages to women who were of legal age when they married. Each family lived in separate residences at the ranch and there is no evidence their children were physically or sexually abused, they say.

Their habeas corpus petition challenges the "illegal detention" of some of their children, who range in age from 1 to 9 and are in shelters in San Antonio. Texas, they say, has "ripped apart families and illegally continues to damage and harm hundreds of children and parents" by "running roughshod" over their constitutional rights to due process and equal protection.

Texas authorities have custody of 464 children taken in early April from the YFZ Ranch, whose residents are members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The state argues the children were at risk because of the sect's polygamous, communal lifestyle and a "prevalent" practice of underage marriage.

At least three other actions are pending before different courts in Texas that make arguments similar to those of the three fathers, who are represented by attorneys Amy Hennington, Kent Schaffer and Gerald Goldstein and his law firm.

<snip>

[High Plains]

1. More from the article:

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9256669

<snip>

The men object they were not individually notified of the state action nor allowed to argue during a "chaotic" two-day hearing in mid-April, at which a judge ordered the children to remain in state custody. The attorneys contend their ability to fairly represent the families was "severely" compromised, especially for lawyers seated in an overflow auditorium. Mothers being sheltered at the San Angelo Coliseum were not able to participate.

Tom Green County Judge Barbara Walther discouraged attorneys from cross-examining witnesses by saying "bless you" when one attorney said he had no questions, the lawyers note, and telling another who did that it was "unfortunate."

"At no point during the proceedings was there any consideration of home and their abilities as parents," the filing said. Such an approach is "expressly condemned" by the U.S. Supreme Court, in a ruling centered on presumptions about how parents might act versus how they do act, it adds.

The men argue there was no evidence that their children were in immediate danger, and say the removal has interfered with their families' religious liberties. The state "has no lawful justification for prohibiting these children from practicing their religion," the filing said. The state must prove that harm will result from conduct - not belief - that is imminent, not speculation about what might happen decades from now, it adds.

Child welfare workers "cannot justify taking these children from their parents because the state disapproves of their religion, and it cannot condition their return to their families on their parents' abandonment of their religious beliefs," it said. The men and their wives have the "same rights as any other citizen to marry, procreate and have a family," the filing said. "The fact that one of their neighbors had become pregnant before age 18 hardly establishes an immediate threat in homes."

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. I thought one of the religious tenets of the FLDS Church

was that each man had to have a minimum of three wives to get to heaven. How were these guys tolerated? Wouldn't they be shunned as heathen or unworthy somehow?

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. No, not all of them have multiple wives

[pnwmom]

28. Not yet. They have to "earn" them. The younger men often have only

had time to earn one wife.

[WolverineDG]

31. Some are monogamous by choice nt

[Marrah_G]

36. They aren't allowed to choose Monogamy

They are required to have at least 3 wives. They have to earn them.

If the prophet tells them to marry, they do it. He doesn't ask. If he tells them to leave and gives their wives and children to other men, they do it.

Those men are liars.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. I heard this morning

one judge told these mothers they could only have their kids back if they left the church.

[WolverineDG]

32. Not sure if any judge said that (yet)

but the statements of the mental health caseworkers who were there on site support the FLDS claims that CPS told the women they would never see their children again if they returned to the ranch.

dg

[High Plains]

5. I think the state overreached by taking every kid in the community.

I guess we'll see if the courts in Texas agree. But the three fathers in this case--all claiming to be in monogamous marriages and living with their families--would seem to have an especially strong case.

[Jack Rabbit]

6. They'll have a tough argument

It sounds like they're already under suspicion of child abuse for the way they treated their wives.

[High Plains]

7. The three men in this case say their wives were of legal age

when they married. As far as I know, there is no particularized information accusing these three of anything.

[musette_sf]

8. just more followers of Joseph Smith

Lying For The Lord, as usual.

http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

either these guys have 3+ wives and are lying now, or they intend to acquire 2+ wives more in the near future and are lying about their supposed belief in "monogamy". by the rules of the Principle, they MUST acquire 3 wives or more. either they are apostate, or they are lying.

when the DNA testing is complete, it will be found that fully half (if not more) of the children from the compound are not the children of the men who were residing at the compound at the time of the rescue. and that fully half (if not more) of the women were "reassigned" to compound leaders after Jeffs threw their previous "husbands" out of the cult.

it looks like they're now just trying to get some guys out there in front of the press whose last names AREN'T Jessop.

where IS Merril, anyway? hiding behind liar weasel "lawyer" Rodney Parker, as usual?

[High Plains]

9. Interesting predictions. We'll see if any of them come true.

[musette_sf]

10. no "predictions" here

just logic, based on research.

[High Plains]

11. Why bother with a trial or hearings, eh?

Yes, you were making specific predictions. As I said, we'll see...

[musette_sf]

13. based on the number of men (and boys)

ejected from the FLDS in the past two years, since Merril began executing Jeffs' plans for the Eldorado compound, it's just simple math. the math has nothing to do with the results of the trial. from those, we will know even more about just how debased this cult is.

[LanternWaste]

23. Because prognostications

"Why bother with a trial or hearings, eh?"

Because prognostications, inferences and inductive reasoning on a message board have very little to do with legal guilt or innocence.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

12. DNA will tell the truth.

About the fathers and how many children they have by how many different women.

[musette_sf]

14. and about the children

and the fact that many of them are not fathered by the men at the compound. they will even find that some children have no biological parent at the compound.

[leftynyc]

15. I'm suspicious of the word

monogamous in this story. As I understand it, they are were all "technically" monogamous as none of the plural marriages were legal marriages (I think they called them spiritual unions). Are these men ready to identify who their children are because the mothers are being very cagey about that very simple question. Also, did any of these men have underage daughters that they handed over to the perverts?

[High Plains]

17. It sounds like the men have identified specific children as theirs.

The article mentions certain children aged 1 to 9.

They claim they are in monogamous relationships, living in two-parent families. I don't know if they are playing word games.

[LanternWaste]

21. Yet you seem to give them more...

"I don't know if they are playing word games."

Yet you seem to give them more credibility than any of the other actors in this little drama. Every time you post or reply about the FLDS...

Every. Time.

[High Plains]

34. Oh, please.

What I just said questioned their credibility, no? They say they are monogamous, and I say I don't know if they're playing word games.

I don't think anyone involved should be taken at their word when it comes to various claims, but I'm inclined to believe the parents are sincere in their desire to have their kids back.

Everyone involved--FLDS, CPS, the Texas courts, the attorneys--is playing a very high-stakes game and will naturally do and say whatever makes them look best.

[leftynyc]

22. Given what I've read

which only amounts to news reports along with the book "Under The Banner of Heaven", I wouldn't believe these men if they told me it was daytime. But another poster said DNA would tell the tale and I agree with that. The Texas authorities certainly took on a very difficult case but I think it took a lot of courage on their part. The AZ and UT authorities should be ashamed this has been happening in their backyard and they've done nothing. The stories about the Lost Boys should have been enough for them to act.

[leftynyc]

25. Also

Websters defines monogamy as one marriage at a time. They are legally only married to one woman so I suspect word games here. I'd like to hear the explanation about the bed in the temple - that should be interesting (and disgusting).

[LanternWaste]

16. So they're *finally* concerned about their children?

So they're *finally* concerned about their children? Rather convenient, and very media savvy too...

[High Plains]

18. Who says they weren't concerned before?

They've been screaming about this since it happened.

You can impute whatever motives to them you like. The simplest explanation would seem to be that they want their kids back. Is that really so hard to imagine?

[musette_sf]

19. "they" have?

where's Merril? he must own the title to at least 50 of the kids via reassignment.

[LanternWaste]

20. Right. They've valued the children since this happened

Right. They've valued the children since this happened. But taking boys out to the highway and dumping them there doesn't really say much for their compassion prior to this incident.

You can impart to them all the righteousness you'd like to. The simplest explanation is that they serially abused their kids. Is that really so hard to imagine?

[leftynyc]

24. Dumping their teenage sons

and handing over their teenage daughters to marry perverts isn't the kind of caring those kids ever needed.

[musette_sf]

26. i'm sure that at the end of this sordid tale

that the actual fathers (kicked out by Jeffs) of many of the children will, indeed, want THEIR kids back.

[underpants]

27. Are they getting horny or are they hurting for their ADC checks?

[TexasObserver]

29. if they had only seized girls aged 10-17, I would not have a problem

The problem is the overreaching nature of this entire action. It was based upon a bogus report, something CPS could have determined with a little real investigation. It is an action far beyond that required to get possession of the girls who are alleged to be illegal sex partners of men.

If there is evidence of men having sex with girls, that should be fully investigated, of course. It appears it probably is true in some cases, and those should be identified and pursued. But that is not what has been happening.

There is an attack on a group of people who are weird, who hold religious beliefs most in America find annoying or offensive. The attack is not confined to the one issue it should be: sexual abuse of children by adults. It's the same problem we have seen for decades in the Catholic church. I don't recall any cases of hundreds of children in a Catholic diocese being seized by CPS under the theory it is the only way to find the priests and the parents who are engaging in sex abuse of children.

This case needs a real judge who understands the constitution, and who values the principles on which our constitution is based. The local yokel of a judge is a tool of the STATE, merely doing what the state agency requests. The rights of citizens, both children and adults, are being trampled in the name of saving from abuse children, but it is not limited to that. It is far in excess of the actions needed to take the girls at risk, have them examined for abuse signs, and have them interviewed properly. This is presumption of guilt and a complete trashing of the constitution.

[WolverineDG]

35. If you read Gerry Goldstein's pleadings in Bexar County

(and court documents are public record, so have fun reading, kids) you will see that the state knew the call was a fraud before they got the warrant & went to the ranch.

Oops.

dg

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

30. I have very little good to say about Texas

But their crackdown on the mormon cult has raised my opinion of the state government greatly. They are only cleaning up a mess that the so-called "mainstream mormons" in Utah, Nevada and Arizona have had a century to and have ignored and enabled.

I used to work with one of the "lost boys" - when he tried to reach his sister, his own father threatened to kill him. He was kicked out because an untreated back injury made him useless as slave labor for the cult.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[ayeshahaqqiqa]

37. Latest on this from yahoo

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080516/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

But in the past week, the state has twice been forced to admit "girls" who gave birth while in state custody are actually adults. One was 22 and claims she showed state officials a Utah birth certificate shortly after she and more than 400 minors were seized from the west Texas ranch in an April raid.

The state has in custody two dozen other young mothers and others whose ages are in dispute. If most of them also turn out to be adults, it would be a severe blow to the state's claim of widespread sexual abuse.

If it turns out the other 24 disputed minors are adults, the number of actual 14- to 17-year-old girls with children could drop to as low as five or six. That would amount to about one-fifth of the girls that age found at the ranch — substantially higher than the average rate of teen pregnancies in Texas but a far cry from 60 percent.

"It's not widespread, and you've got to look at every family individually to determine whether there's a problem in a family," said Rod Parker, a spokesman for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the renegade Mormon sect that runs the ranch.