NeoCons Love Israel "Because They Want To See It Destroyed So The Rapture Can Begin"

[orleans]

i thought this was interesting:

"you've got this very right-wing christian support of israel which scares me even more. and bush is from that school. and for anybody who really does believe that israel has a right to exist: the neocons are not your guys. they talk a great game about supporting israel but you listen to pastor hagge. you listen to those little meetings he has. the reason why they want to preserve israel for a certain amount of time is so that israel can then be destroyed so that the messiah can come back. jewish americans--not all of them--but a good deal of them have fallen for this neocon swill about how they love israel. a good part of them loves israel because they want to see it destroyed so that the rapture can begin."

--randi rhodes speaking to a caller, thursday, 5/15/08 www.novamradio.com 30:50 into podcast.


several years ago someone who was once a "friend" was talking to me about rapturing, israel, building a temple at a certain place (i really don't understand any of this) and once it is completed then there will be armageddon, and the rapture. she spoke about how she loved israel and i wondered if you love it so much why do you want those people to die? it was absolute crazy/delusional talk

it was probably during that conversation i realized she was out of her fucking mind.

[Wetzelbill]

1. yeah that's the thing all these people who "love" Israel

Want it to be destroyed and to have millions of Jews repent or die. It's brutally macabre stuff. I heard one fundie in a report on some show years ago, that my professor showed us in an Arabic-Israeli Conflict class, talk about how God assassinated Yitzhak Rabin because by working on a peace settlement he was going against the will of God. It was insane. She said it like she was talking about somebody taking out the garbage or something.

These people have a bonkers view of the world, and they are taken seriously by our foreign policy establishment. It's sick stuff.

[orleans]

2. it is sick--but it's also scary as hell. these crazy asses are running

this country!

kinda makes you want to slap every moron who voted for bush. don't it?

[Wetzelbill]

3. well, slap them again anyway

Plenty reasons to get that first one in, lol.

[elocs]

4. The Rapture is not a very old Christian belief (early 1800s) and not all Christians believe it.

I studied it extensively maybe 30 years ago, even using the original Hebrew and Greek. It takes a lot of stretching and straining, and misinterpreting scriptures that had already happened in the distant past and projecting them into the future. There are various beliefs about the Rapture (that word is not in the Bible) with some believing in a pretribulation Rapture (Jesus comes in the clouds to snatch away the believing Christians before the bad time starts) midtribulation, and post-tribulation Rapture. The complexities do not end there. Christian Biblical prophecy is not simple and many people are making big money off of it nowadays.

The talk about a temple deal with the belief that a 3rd Temple will be built at the sight of Solomon's Temple (the Wailing Wall is the outer wall of that temple). The problem is that the 2nd most holy Muslim shrine, the Dome of the Rock (see: http://witcombe.sbc.edu/sacredplaces/domeofrock.html) is at that place, which makes a new Temple problematic. Many Christians who believe in the Rapture and the prophecies they believe that will go with it have given a lot of money to see the temple rebuilt.

There are many Christians whose love of Israel has nothing to do specifically with the Rapture, but because of verses like Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed", which they apply to the nation of Israel or Psalm 122:6 "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee." So the view that Christians love Israel primarily because of the Rapture is a simplistic view.

After studying the theory of the Rapture I believe it to be convoluted and many scriptures need to be tortured and misinterpreted to make it work. For those who believe in the Rapture I do not believe they delight in seeing Israel destroyed (for the most part), but they believe these things are a part of prophecy and will happen whether they want them to or not. You may disagree with them, but it does help to understand where they are coming from.

I do not believe in the theory of the Rapture and I no longer even consider myself a Christian (an agnostic at best). When it is said, "i really don't understand any of this", one might read that as saying you are ignorant about it. It is probably best to avoid extensive comment about things you do not know a lot about. A Christian who says crazy things is no more representative of all Christians than a Democrat who says crazy things is representative of all Democrats. There are many religions in the world and some of them are far out, weird, and incomprehensible to me and I might think those people are out of their fucking minds. Perhaps they are, perhaps I am, but perhaps I don't know enough about them or their religion and perhaps I should not paint with such a broad brush. That being said, the world would be ever so much a better place if everyone just believed what I believe and agree with all I say. Yes, it would be better. Not likely though.

[orleans]

5. well, at least i'm being honest when i say i don't understand all this stuff

and i guess i'm judgment passing when i say i think my ex friend (and those who believe what she was spewing about) are crazy--but it's that "magical thinking" that gets to me (might as well be telling me you believe in the potato fairy who floats around every night, planting potatoes in everyone's backyard)

that, combined with the fact that there is such eagerness to get into a war and kill people based on this magical thinking.

therefore, i did restrain from extensive comment.

[elocs]

6. Yes, you are being honest and not many here probably do understand this stuff.

The Rapture is a relatively new Christian idea and even very few Christians who believe in it have taken the time or made the effort to determine whether it is valid (within the context of the Bible), but simply get caught up with the idea. If they study it at all it is only to confirm their belief in it and not to determine whether it is Biblically solid.

Like anything, the Rapture can be misapplied. Christian believers are to be the stewards of this earth (it belongs not to them, but to God) and even if they believe in the prophecies of the Rapture they are not to delight in the destruction of the earth. Since they are only stewards of this earth they are not expected to rape and pillage it (although many do) and are answerable to God. Not everybody who calls themselves a Christian is one and even Jesus was clear about this.

So no true Christian, even if they believe in the Rapture, should delight in wars, or rumors of wars, or any kind of destruction of the earth. But certainly don't hold all Christians responsible for those with nutty and unscriptural ideas about the Rapture and who are eager for wars that they believe will make prophetic things come to pass. If the Bible and Christianity are true, these people are going to be in for a big surprise when they face God.

[orleans]

8. i absolutely don't "hold all christians responsible for those with

nutty and unscriptural ideas about the Rapture"

my father was a very devoted christian, a very good, kind and fair person. i grew up seeing a very positive model of christianity.

[elocs]

14. You don't, many here do. Trashing Christianity is a great pastime here at DU.

Although I'd reckon there are more than a few DUers who are devoted Christians as well as millions of Democrats.

[Ezlivin]

11. Excellent short analysis

I graduated from a conservative Southern Baptist seminary in 1993; it really took a hard turn toward unrelenting fundamentalism during my last year of studies.

According to the SBC (Southern Baptist Commission) there are approximately 30,000,000 Southern Baptists in the U.S. If they hold to the beliefs promulgated through their seminaries then they hold a literal belief in the Rapture, the destruction of Israel and the Second Coming.

While you are correct in your assertion that they do not delight in seeing Israel destroyed, they do eagerly anticipate it because it is one of the last remaining "unfulfilled" prophecies.

In the many SBC churches in which I served as a layman and as a minister I encountered a great many people who were absolutely fanatical about adhering to a Pre-tribulation view of the Rapture. At one church when I suggested that we study all of the theories (Pre-, Mid- and Post-tribulation), I met some tough resistance. However, at the end of the study the class was aware that there are many different interpretations of the associated verses.

What is unsettling about Darby's Rapture theory is that so many Baptists want to see the Middle East in turmoil because it is just another "sign" of the impending Rapture. And since this mass of people wield such power at the polls they essentially drive our foreign policy in a frightening direction. As Michael Weinstein noted in "With God on Our Side: One Man's War Against an Evangelical Coup in America's Military" the Christian Right has been very successful in turning the military (and in particular the Air Force) into a force of religious crusaders. Many in the military thus believe that it is their sacred duty to help bring about the fulfillment of prophesy and hence usher in the return of Christ.

The situation is critical. 2008 will be a pivotal year in America's history.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

7. When Bush said that God told him to invade Iraq

do you think it had anything to do with making armageddon in the region more likely and the rapture (in hiw own mind) a bit closer to arriving? What other reason could the Chimp have for believing that God told him to make war, other than running his foreign policy according his own relgious delirium?

[orleans]

15. i think that fuckhead thought: fundi neocon christians will go along w/this

because of their salivating for the rapture, meanwhile he knew he could make a fucking killing!

[martymar64]

9. Those crazy Xians

Their gullibilty knows no bounds.
Like Luis Bunuel once said, "Thank God, I'm still an atheist."

[QueenOfCalifornia]

10. I have said this

for a very long time.

The religious people who subscribe to the rapture want to fulfill the book of Revelation which predicts that the Temple on the Mount will be reconstructed - one big problem, the Dome of the Rock is built there now and so somehow the Islamic Holy site must be destroyed to make way for the Temple on the Mount - The only original part of the old structure is the Western Wall where you see the Jews praying. To destroy the Dome of the Rock will mean a horrific war in that region. This is what your friendly Christian who believes in the rapture believes.

[KharmaTrain]

12. Neo Cons Aren't "End Of Timers"

I was first "indoctrinated" into the concept of Armageddon back in the 70's when a fundie (or we called them Jesus Freaks) found out I was Jewish and couldn't stop asking me all sorts of goofy questions. He wanted to know which "tribe" I belonged to and told me that if I didn't "find the true messiah" I'd face the fate of other Jews after the "true Messiah" rises. I was 18 at the time and couldn't believe anyone could believe this...but this is definitely Hagee's shtick, but he's definitely not a Neo Con.

Their games are two-fold. Some are AIPAC puppets...Likudniks who see the US as Israel's ultimate defender and better not only to use US taxpayer money for the weapons, but why not include the entire military. Then there are others who see profits in endless wars and "terror"...justifying large defense contracts and driving up the stock prices and values of their clients. Either way, it's self-serving and the merger of the two has spelled disaster for US foreign policy and church/state separation.

[LeftishBrit]

13. I doubt that all neo-cons are Armageddon-seeking religious nuts; but it seems that some are!

With friends like Hagee et al, Israel doesn't need enemies (though it has them!) As we don't have a lot of fundies influencing mainstream politics in the UK, it's been a bit of a shock and eye-opener to see how influential the Christian Right are in some areas of American politics.

[ileus]

16. LOL...crazy talk.