Food From a Farmers Market

[erpowers]

Does food from a farmers market taste better than food from a grocery store. I have recently visited two farmers markets and I was pleasently surprised each time. The first time tasted a piece of an apple and thought to myself wow this apple tastes great. In fact I thought the sample was the best apple sample I had tasted. The flavor from the apple was just so great and extreme. I really tasted the flavor of the apple. The second time a tasted a piece of apple and once again thought the apple tasted really good. When I went to the markets I was not expecting the food to taste better than grocery store food. I really thought the apples would taste just like apples in the grocery store. So was it just me or does food from a farmers market taste better than food from a grocery store.

I will acknowledge that I will not buy all my food from a farmers market, but I will try to buy at least a few things from farmers markets. At this point some of the prices are a little to high compared to the stores.

[sandnsea]

1. They're picked ripe

and grown organic, so yes they usually taste better, way better. It also encourages people to eat more fruits and vegetables, since they taste so good, which helps you lose weight and be healthier.

[yellowcanine]

5. Most apples at farmer's markets are not organically grown. They may be fresher, however.

[uberllama42]

7. Organic standards are very hard for small operations to meet

They were legislated with large operations in mind, which is why the vast majority of organic produce in the United States comes from five very large farms in California. The local farms near me are as close to organic standards as they can manage to be, and the produce at farmers' markets around here is usually very fresh.

[Warpy]

11. They're certainly harvested later

instead of being harvested green and then sprayed with ethylene gas when it's time to ripen them for market.

(before anybody freaks out, the ethylene is produced naturally by apples, just not in sufficient quantities to ripen a green apple in cold storage)

What supermarkets have are green apples that are artificially ripened. What the farmer's market might have are apples ripened naturally. I say might because a lot of stalls at farmer's markets use fruits and veg bought from the same wholesalers supermarkets use.

Anybody who's ever had a backyard garden can tell you that food that's ripened before it's picked is always superior to supermarket fare. It's really worth paying a premium if that's what you're getting at a farmer's market.

[Two Americas]

31. "green" is not related to ripeness

Many apple varieties stay green no matter how ripe, such as Rhode Island Greening. Other apples are yellow, or brown or orange when ripe. Color is not indication of ripeness, the color of the seeds is. When they turn from pale green to dark brown, the apple is ripe.

Peaches and other easily bruised stone fruit is picked before it is ripe, but I am not aware of that happening with apples. If it is happening, it must be a new development and happening on the West Coast. Apples are kept in CA storage - oxygen free warehouses - and in my opinion that can be brutal on flavor and texture. I have never see an apple that was not ripe for sale. Peaches, yes, all the time. Apples and pears continue to ripen after they are picked, in any case, so there is no advantage to picking them before they are ripe. Not saying it isn't happening, just that I have never seen it. All apples produce more than adequate amounts of ethylene for proper ripening. Cold storage slows the process, but keep in mind that there are many varieties that improve in flavor in storage - the Russets and many Pippins, for example.

Supermarkets in the Midwest almost always have fresh, ripe apples in season, and I know this is also true in New England. I know several family growers in New York state who brings truckloads of fresh picked ripe apples into Manhattan every day in season.

Your point about farmer's markets is well taken. Most of the "growers" there are hobbyists or gardeners, since it is not worthwhile for most serious family growers to participate. Price wars and deceptive marketing are extremely common in farmer's markets, and most growers do not want to compete in that environment. Many of the booths are also run by vendors who buy their produce form the same warehouse that the supermarkets do.

It is not as difficult to visit the orchard as people imagine, and there is fresh fruit close in to almost every metropolitan area. If anyone wants to do some fruit exploring in their area this year, I can recommend places to visit with progressive practices and heirloom and high quality varieties near to you. I can even put Los Angeles people into an heirloom orchard if they have a Saturday to spend on the project. Louisiana, Florida and Nevada are the only really tough states to find fresh (non citrus) fruit.

[asdjrocky]

39. So the best bet may be-

If you have any space at all, keep a home garden? Here's my question, in building a raised garden, should I fill the boxes with bag soil of the "organic" label, or does it really matter?

Suddenly I've become a farmer, with tomato's, cucumbers, squash, corn and a whole lot more. I also have room for about 4 good fruit trees, but I don't know what to plant. Funny, it all started with a couple of tomato seeds.

[Two Americas]

42. hey Rocky

That is great. Good to see you, guy. So your a farmer now lol.

Get fruit trees with dwarfing rootsock - they bear faster and better. There is a guy in Sonoma who has saplings of all kinds of fruit varieties - can't remember his name right now. You aren't far from Apple Hill up near Placerville. Raised is good for fruit trees, because they like good soil drainage. They need sun.

That organic fertilizer can be from municipal sewage sludge, as I understand it. Just get manure, I would say.

[Warpy]

43. I am talking about immature (green) apples that are picked

long before they mature and develop full flavor and sugars. The ethylene gas will change the color of the skin and cause some surface ripening to occur, but the apple will still suffer in flavor and often texture from early picking.

Green in this case means unripe. It has no bearing on color, which can vary widely.

[Two Americas]

55. yes understood

You mean "green" as in not ripe - I wasn't sure. I am not aware of that happening - well, not intentionally and I can't see an advantage - and would be interested in it if you can let me know where this is happening.

Usually it is a mad scramble to get them all off the trees before they hang too long, or start to fall. They move quickly in the last few days, and gain a lot of size and color - it would be hard to time picking them intentionally so they were not ripe. Peaches, apricots, and nectarines - yes, on the West Coast.

[sandyd921]

49. Not from wholesalers where I live

I look forward to our local farm markets opening for business during our rather abbreviated growing season in Maine. My experience around the state is that the produce and other products come direct from local farmers and producers. Also a lot of the produce is organic.

http://www.maine.gov/tools/whatsnew/index.php

[Two Americas]

57. New England is best

New England is the best part of the country for retail-oriented and ag tourism focused small farming and consumer options, yes.

[sandnsea]

66. So is Oregon, and probably Washington

I can't speak for the rest of the country. I just know the bulk of the farms around here are organic, sustainable and very concerned about the earth and people. Note the 74,000 people in Portland on a Sunday afternoon to see a politician.

[Two Americas]

91. indeed, yes

I am looking forward to doing extensive traveling to see farming in Oregon and the West coast this year to see first hand and to meet in person a lot of farmers I know by email and phone.

We should not promote the idea that farmers who are not organic are not safe, "sustainable and very concerned about the earth and people." There is no hard and fast dividing line. I happen to know that more than 90% of the farm acreage in the West is not organic. I think that the organic movement causes this two tier dichotomy - consumer concern is satisfied and people are lulled by this idea of "choices" and a few get something that they think is better, so pressure is off and corporate players move in with less supervision and regulation.

If a method is better, ALL farms should use it and that means public infrastructure, regulations, subsidies, education - political solutions - not consumer choices or more meaningless and misleading garbage as a labeling requirement. If a method is NOT demonstrably and incontrovertibly better, as is the case with organic, it should not be presented as a serious solution to the problems of farming and the challenge of feeding the public. Public policy should never be determined by consumerism, by "free market" ideology and "personal choices." That approach works against safer food and more sustainable farming.

[sandnsea]

17. Our local farmers are mostly organic

Everything from vegetables to berries to wine grapes to apples.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=eugene+organic+apples

[yellowcanine]

21. That would be the exception. Most farmers who market locally are not organically certified.

[BronxBoy]

63. True

We are a small operation and to get certified would be a daunting task. We do practice naturally sustainable methods however.

[Two Americas]

81. unique and not easily duplicated

Seattle, Portland and San Francisco are unique, in that there is a large enough upscale population to support little mini-industries of boutique farms and gardens producing various gourmet items. It does not scale up to feed the population, and there are many trade-offs. The drier climate in the West makes a certain type of agriculture easier, but it comes with environmental costs and is dependent upon irrigation. It is also difficult to imagine that scenario without massive sprawling suburbs, so that there is an upscale professional clientele for the specialty foods, and that mitigates strongly against vital and thriving traditional agricultural communities.

The West coast represents a paradox in agriculture, an extreme form of the paradox that the entire country suffers from. We see massive gigantic absentee land owner factory farms, and the most hazardous and least sustainable ag practices - that is 99.999% of agriculture in that region - while at the same time we find extreme forms of the various things that are destroying agriculture - water shortages, sprawl and development. CSA, organic farms, and farmers markets could not exist without the upscale population and the associated suburban development, so we are giving progressive choices to the few at the ultimate expense of denying them to the many.

[L. Coyote]

13. Often the food was harvested the day before, or that morning early.

The Saturday Farmer's Market, Corvallis, Oregon.
http://jqjacobs.net/photos/farmers_market.html

w/permission

[orleans]

18. i wish the food was organic. it's not--at least not from all the local farmers.

i asked why it wasn't organic and was told the work and the cost wouldn't be worth it.

too bad.

i started going to whole foods again, looking for the organic.

[sandnsea]

20. Most of our local farmers are

And I'd still trust locally grown produce over packaged god knows what from who knows where.

[Two Americas]

32. not always safe or sustainable

Talking to a wide range of toxicologists, extension agents and IPM experts - who don't care about the controversy, have no axe to grind and get paid either way - the consensus is that organic practices are more harmful to the environment and less safe than new progressive techniques most family growers are now using. I have heard toxicologists say that they hate to go into an organic orchard, and one called them "toxic waste dumps." Organic growers spray much, much more often than otherwise, and the chemicals approved for organic - while "natural" - can be much more toxic and persistent than anything the vast majority of small family growers are using. Safe and sustainable technology has come a long, long way over the last thirty years. Economic pressure has weeded out most of the irresponsible or haphazard growers, and most small farmers today are highly educated and trained and progressive.

The other problem is that most of the produce marked "organic" today is imported, and since we don't have country of origin labeling that is hard to detect. Being "certified organic" in Mexico - which is where most of the organic greens are coming from - is a matter of slipping some money to a local official. This means that "organic" produce is as often as not far below the safety standards that the government enforces on food grown here (although we have a huge problem with de-regulation, de-funding and corporate corruption in recent years) yet it is commanding a premium price.

[Tashca]

44. Very broad brush there..

Your ascertain that "organic practices are more harmful to the environment and less safe than new progressive techniques most family farmers are now using."

I find that a very broad brush stroke....I am curious...what products are these organic farmers using that are so much more damaging to the environment??.....more damaging than the pyrethroids and other insecticides these so called family growers are now using??

I know your talking about orchards...I'm not well versed on these. I do know alittle about agriculture though. I think your statement is very misleading.....

[Two Americas]

48. no problem

It varies a lot by region and grower, and it is not an all-or-nothing or a hard and fast dividing line. Most conscientious growers will not use Rotinone - a "natural" poison, the same one used by fish and game departments to sterilize lakes - or massive doses of heavy metals, both approved for organic but not very responsible. The biggest organic apple grower in the country - and keep in mind that organic represents a tiny fraction of the food supply, almost non-existent - is in the desert near Phoenix. No pests there for the time being, but of course that will change. Meanwhile, putting apple orchards in fragile desert eco-systems is not very sound practice environmentally.

The healthier the orchard, the less need for pest management, so the first line of defense is healthy trees. The main pest is the Coddling Moth, and the best strategy that has the most promise for dealing with that is reproductive disruption - spraying the chemical that the moths use to attract one another in small amounts in the orchard prevents them from finding each other, hence no mating, hence no eggs in the fruit, and no worms in the fruit. With the FDA's strict zero-tolerance policy on worms in fruit, the grower is absolutely obligated legally to eliminate them, and there is no alternative to a strong pesticide when needed. The main concerns are these: how persistent is the chemical? A chemical that breaks down quickly into safe compounds is vital. How targeted is the chemical? The more targeted, the less risk to beneficials. Often a more toxic chemical is preferable, if it is also highly targeted and dissipates quickly and leaves no persistent hazardous residue.

The ag colleges are doing great work on biological controls - identifying and synthesizing naturally occurring chemicals in the crops that resist pests and disease. Purdue, Rutgers and other colleges have had an ongoing breeding program, specifically to select new disease resistant varieties. Also, researchers from Cornell have gained access to the primeval fruit forests in Kazahkstan for the first time since the Revolution, and there are naturally selected disease and pest resistant varieties by the thousands growing there. That shows the most promise - going back to the genetic source for all of our deciduous fruit.

Family farmers are not "so called." The fruit business is still dominated by thousands of family run orchards of 300 acres or less.

[Tashca]

50. Thank you for the info.

I guess you were talking apples. I felt your post implied a negative comment toward organic agriculture in general.....not specific to Apples.

It's always in the wording.

BTW....I work daily with many family farmers....just not in fruit production.

[Two Americas]

54. thanks

Appreciate the discussion.

That is one of the problems - the word "organic" is too broadly used, and too ill-defined. It means "natural" - which means deadly poisons that are naturally occurring are accepted, while synthesized biological controls - the exact same molecule that is produced by the plant or the pest - are not. The word is too broadly applied to have much meaning, as well. There is no relationship between fruit growing and animal husbandry, for example, so how can the same word be used? I think that small scale more natural animal husbandry makes perfect sense, but of course that would mean higher prices and less meat in our diets. As it is now, the meat industry is vertically integrated and heavily subsidized. Subsidies for meat made sense when we had a protein and fat starved population, but now I think it would be smarter to move people more toward fruits and vegetables. II read that the per capita fruit consumption in France is five times what it is here.

I am not anti-organic farmers, as I know many and as with everything there are good ones and bad ones. I know organic farmers who are con artists and hustlers and who cheat and cut corners - there is virtually no inspection. I know so-called conventional growers who are as safe or safer than any organic grower. I know food brokers who market organic, when it is all imported and the only thing that "organic" means is that a local official was bribed in a third world country to sign some paperwork. In a survey I did recently of upscale produce markets, 90% of the "organic" produce was imported and subject to no scrutiny or inspection anywhere of any kind. I know excellent organic growers who have abandoned certification in recent years, because they realized that there were "conventional" growers who were operating much more safely, and because they decided that the "organic" concept was no longer meaningful for a variety of reasons that I have described. I know very talented and progressive traditional farmers who have experimented with organic,found it to be unworkable and less safe than what they were doing before.

When I go to the farmer's market, I always chuckle at what the "organic" growers are selling. Berries, for instance. Hell we put the canes in the ground, add a little manure, water them and forget about them. Anyone can grow "organic" berries on a small scale - it is as easy as growing organic weeds. We could call our berries "organic" and command a premium price, but we just don't think that is ethical. Once we spray Giberillic acid on them - a naturally occurring growth promoter that MSU has synthesized and that is identical to the chemical in the plant - though, we have joined the "evil side" lol.

Produce that is cheap and easy to grow is often "organic" no matter who grew it. I also see organic meat vendors, and I am very impressed by that and see much promise there.

I think that there are three forces at work. After the organic movement first started, a trend among conventional growers began that has led to safer and more sustainable methods. At the same time, organic as a political movement is stuck back in the 60's and constrained by an ideological framework that has little application to agriculture and is anti-science. Then we have the corporate giants in the food industry, who now have a stranglehold on the global food supply, who do what they want to do and make their own rules.

So we have three groups - small farmers innovating in a variety of ways, organic and not, with the back up and support of the scientists and researchers in the agricultural colleges and the government; the organic political movement, made up of people who have little or no knowledge of agriculture, but are well-intentioned; the corporate giants who are increasing their power relentlessly and who thumb their noses at the farmers, the organic people, the universities, the government and the people.

[Tashca]

71. Sorry for the delay

I have been working many hours the last few weeks and don't have the time to read like I usually do.

You bring up some interesting points. I've had some experience with Organic agriculture here in Iowa. I ran an organic processing plant for a couple of years. We processed organic soybeans into animal feed which was used in organic milk and egg production.

I would disagree with your assertion of loose standards at least here in Iowa. Everything had to be used based on OMRI specifications. The inspectors would make their rounds and of course there were annual inspections from the state with observations of our equipment and records. There is a very stringent paper trail made from producer to the grocery shelf. To be labeled Organic it has to follow very tight rules. Now.....labeling something Natural...as far as I can tell that means about nothing

I would agree that there are people who cheat....I won't limit that to Organic producers.
I did enter a different world with this group of people. I have a long background in crop production. I tried very hard to expand our grower base to no avail. What was limiting our production was the fact that not enough soybeans were available. We ended up getting most of our soybeans from Kansas (double cropped after organic wheat) and sending much of our finished product to California. The rest went to local egg production.

I became very frustrated when my farmer friends could not see the benefits of Organic production. Many of our local organic producers couldn't understand why people didn't switch either. Once they set up their program they had success. It's a total different mindset.

I mention organic to a conventional producer and their eyes glaze over. I mention conventional methods to an Organic producer and their heads practically explode. I believe that there is an in between ground. I have been working hard on a transition....trying to come up with the best methods from both camps. I have my two largest conventional customers putting out plots for me. At least trying to see if they can benefit. I was surprised how open they where to the ideas. This isn't going to happen over night

[Two Americas]

76. that is great

You have much experience and many valuable insights. I appreciate that very much. Organic standards for animal husbandry, in my opinion, are the most effective and beneficial and workable component of the organic movement. I have been meeting with some organic beef and pork ranchers recently and am very impressed with their operations. They are farmers first, and ideologues secondly, and are developing workable and successful approaches.

In Michigan, due to deregulation and stripping of funding by the Republicans, inspection has become virtually non-existent. I hear that this is the case in many parts of the country now.

Here is my position: anything that increases public support for a strong public infrastructure to manage and regulate agriculture and protect public health, I favor. Anything that tends to erode, undermine or distract the public from seeing the need for and supporting a strong public agriculture infrastructure, I oppose.

[siligut]

75. Just to add.

While organic can mean natural or when talking about organic chemistry that it deals carbon and hydrogen, when talking about certified organic food, the regulations are specific and strict.

Some people are ethical and take the plight of pesticide use seriously. Organic labeling on food has 3 levels. Made with only organic ingredients, meaning no synthetic additives or substances applied, 90% organic and 70% organic.

Some food suppliers, not wanting to pay for expensive organic certification, just put “All Natural” on their product, this has no regulation.

However, the senate passed a rider in 2006 that threatens to undermine the current regulations and would allow more synthetic ingredients in foods labeled “organic”. I don’t know the politics behind it, but I can guess.

[Two Americas]

77. yes

It is not the regulations I object to, it is the criteria for developing the regulations. We are pursuing an illusion, often. Organic is too poorly defined, and based on false premises that can only resonate well with a public profoundly ignorant about agriculture.

I think that the organic versus non-organic framework is weak and useless - as an all-or-nothing, black and white, good versus evil paradigm. The notion that only organic growers - and we should always keep in mind that it is more of an ideology than an agricultural method and it does not represent a significant contribution - a tiny percentage - to the need to feed the public - are following standards, or adhering to safety guidelines, or managing resources and undergoing inspection, or continually consulting with experts in soil and water management and safe practices, is false and misleading and very destructive.

In specialty crops, I know of virtually no grower who is resistant to methods that are safer and more sustainable. Sometimes that means an "organic" method - again, whatever that means exactly - and it is not clear - and sometimes it does not. There are far, far more methods that have been developed in "conventional" agriculture, and then adopted by organic than the other way around. Many approved organic methods, which are absolutely mandatory to use if the grower is interested in serious long term farming rather than hobby farming or gardening, are just not safe or sustainable. But there is no hard and fast dividing line, and the organic label - which is really what this is all about, since detecting how a piece of produce was grown is just about impossible - is not a guarantee of anything to the consumer, yet the main thrust of the movement is to convince the consumer that this is the case.

Consumer driven, "personal choice" models for public safety and management of public resources, is a libertarian approach to what are political and social issues. It creates two tiers - the supposedly good stuff for the upscale enlightened consumer, and "let them eat cake" for the poor people. This is morally unacceptable and threatens to undermine the centuries-old ethical framework of agriculture, as well as to sabotage public support for a strong public agricultural policy. It is also easily co-opted by the corporations, and this is in fact what has happened with organic food. I avoid food labeled organic, because that too often means lower standards, less inspection, lower quality, as well as directly harming all of the people doing excellent work within the agriculture infrastructure by giving the public a distorted and negative view of them.

In ranching, and with row crops I think the situation is different. The operations are bigger, the economic pressures greater, and there may be more resistance to new methods. I am not as familiar with those sectors.

[kestrel91316]

87. If you don't like organic standards and how they are arrived at,

NOBODY is forcing you to use them. Use all the chemicals you want. You just don't get to use the organic label.

[Two Americas]

90. didn't say that

We all are being forced by the organic movement in directions that are politically reactionary and contrary to public benefit. I am not saying people should not choose organic, I am saying that the notion that it means anything is an illusion. If food is better, it should be available to all. If is is harmful, no one should be able to "choose" it, or forced to choose it. A two tier food system founded on the libertarian free market consumer choice model for vital human necessities in morally unacceptable. Access to clean air, clean water, and adequate nutritious and safe food are fundamental human rights, and should never be seen as consumer choices.

Choose organic if you like, but it is socially irresponsible to represent that falsely to others - as progressive, as a guarantee of safety and quality, as the right thing to do, as an easy solution to the global food crisis.

Almost all methods used in organic were developed in "conventional" agriculture. Almost all methods used in "conventional" farming are organic. There is no hard and fast dividing line - it is arbitrary and whimsical, in theory and more importantly - in practice.

We need one strong set of comprehensive science-based standards for all farmers for the benefit of all people, administered by public agencies. What we do not need is a free lance and unregulated oppositional movement to agriculture, an adversarial movement, because that erodes the fight to maintain and restore the public agriculture infrastructure for the benefit of all as opposed to satisfying the whims of the few.

The real battle is against the big money interests, the global corporations, the speculators and investors, the hoarders and the marketers, the developers and the monopolists. That takes courage, wisdom and intelligence, and suggesting that by merely reading a label and making the right "personal choices," or believing in the right doctrine, that a life and death issue of social policy and political will is solved, is short-sighted and counter productive. It can only help the political right wing, help the exploitative corporations, and sabotage the public will and the demand for real solutions.

[kestrel91316]

86. Which non-organic megacorporation's payroll are you on?

[Two Americas]

82. there is no hard and fast dividing line

Why go to a corporate chain and buy produce that is most likely imported, and subject to no standards or inspection at all, merely because it has the word "organic" on the label, and reject safe, fresh and locally grown food?

There is no hard and fast dividing line, as implied by the organic concept. If organic were better, if it were safer, every grower I know would convert in a heartbeat. They raise their kids on the farm, they feed their neighbors, they are highly educated and are continually engaged in ongoing education, clinics, workshops and consulting closely with the scientists, researchers and toxicologists, working with the inspectors, the IPM experts, the soil and water experts. With the intense economic pressures on small growers, those who are not progressive are being driven out. Most "organic" methods have been adopted by most small family farmers. They reject the few methods that are certified organic but that in their informed, educated, responsible and professional view, are not safe or sustainable.

Organic commands a much higher price, and small farmers are struggling financially. It is an ethical decision for many to pass up the increased income from organic, it is not a cost-cutting or selfish or misinformed or cavalier or irresponsible decision.

A conventional grower can be doing everything identically to the organic grower, with one exception. The organic grower is spraying "natural" poisons, that are persistent, that are broad spectrum and not targeted, that degrade the environment, and that require ten times or more the frequency of spraying, while the conventional grower is making one application of a substance that is not natural, but is not persistent, is highly targeted and much easier on the environment and less hazardous. Increasingly, the synthetics are molecules that occur naturally in the plants and that have disease or pest resistant properties. These are not "natural" - are not harvested from the wild - but any toxicologist will tell you that a molecule is a molecule and has no political ideology, and a molecule extracted from the plant is no different than that same molecule synthesized in the lab. One is natural, the other is not. But this has absolutely nothing to do with food safety or environmental risks or sustainable farming.

Not supporting local family growers is working against safe food and sustainable ag, not working for it.

[GoneOffShore]

2. It does indeed taste better!

And, to quote the former director of Green Market in NYC, "If you like to look at scenery, you have to eat the landscape".

You're more likely to get fresher food, closer to home and better for you from a farmers market. We're lucky here in Philadelphia as there is a strong local agriculture presence. And it's getting stronger.

Support your local farmer - Buy Fresh, Buy Local.

[femmedem]

3. Yes, the produce at farmers' markets tastes better. There are several reasons:

It's much fresher--often picked that morning or the night before. And supermarket vegetables are generally chosen for how well they travel--tomatoes with thick, less likely to bruise skins, for example--than for taste.

[alphafemale]

4. Always. Just wait until you try the tomatoes.

The difference in the taste of "real" tomatoes and those vaguely tomato flavored spongy things you can buy in a store is amazing.

[aquart]

8. Wait till you try the corn!

And the strawberries! They are NOTHING like supermarket strawberries! They're smaller and they never make it home, actually.

[alphafemale]

12. I grew up with the corn. I remember not going out to pick it until Mom had the water boiling.

:9 Now that was fresh corn!

YUM!

[aquart]

23. Oh, my, yes!

[Horse with no Name]

56. Last year there were some Mennonites selling a BUSHEL of corn

on the side of the road for $20.
I bought them and it was the best corn I have ever tasted.
I was able to stock the freezer very well with it.

[melm00se]

6. a lot of mass produced

fruits and vegetables (like what's trucked in to your local super mega mart) are grown and harvested with more of an eye to longer shelf life and there are trade offs for that: namely flavor.

I try and buy from local farmers when at all possible but somethings that I like (bananas and pineapples to name 2) aren't exactly locally grown here (NC).

[EstimatedProphet]

9. Yes, it does taste better

It's fresher, for one, and riper. I picked my spinach and radishes this weekend, and both are so much better than grocery store products that it is amazing. Same goes for farmer's market produce.

[Frustratedlady]

10. Absolutely, but you do need to buy when the local produce appears.

At this point in time, much of the produce is still shipped in to the vendors, but it is still better since it doesn't have as much handling. Our farmers' market just opened a couple weeks ago and it was so crowded, you could hardly get up to a stand.

If you want to test the difference, try fresh broccoli or green beans, as well as the tomatoes and strawberries. You will be pleasantly surprised. Besides, you are helping the small business person rather than corporate...not that there is anything wrong with your large grocery stores, but more of your money stays local. Actually, I found the prices lower than the stores. This week, I bought melons, new potatoes, sweet corn, tomatoes and a pie.

We have an abundance of fresh bakery, too. Breads, pastries, pies, homemade noodles, jams/jellies, pickles, etc. What fun!

[TexasObserver]

14. you cannot get decent veggies in most stores

that's just a fact

Yes, local markets that have organically grown veggies are the best.

You cannot even compare a mass produced tomato with one grown in a real garden.

[orleans]

19. speaking of tomatoes....

what is with these tomatoes that you actually have to "core" because of those little hard/spikey things in the center.

i bought a couple different types at the store one day. one didn't have the spikey things in the center (it was a "hot house" tomato). i bought more a week later and they had the crap inside!

what is with that?

[knitter4democracy]

24. You can say that again.

We have a decent market here in town for veggies and such, but nothing compares with garden-fresh or our CSA or U-pick.

[L. Coyote]

15. Only direct from your own garden is better, and fresher. Grow food!!

Save energy by growing as much food as you can!! Save money too.

[Two Americas]

28. support the family growers

That is the socially responsible thing to do. Developing personalized strategies is good, but should not replace supporting the community. Everyone needs to eat, not just those with the option of doing their own gardening. Supporting the progressive local growers - many of whom I know from personal experience make sure that no one goes hungry in their community and quietly give out a lot of free food - means that more people eat, and they eat better.

You can save money at the farm by the way, by buying "seconds" if they are available. Most people reject fruit if it has a smaller size or minor and harmless blemish. Don't ever demand seconds from a grower - they don't intentionally grow blemished produce, or keep it around and store it for the convenience of the unusual customer, and can't devote a lot of time and energy to it. It gets composted back in pretty quickly. But often they have a box of culls somewhere, perfectly good fruit, that can be picked up as a bargain.

[L. Coyote]

29. Give food you grow to others too. Does you co-op have a free food bin?

We used to take all excess garden produce to our co-op, where it went into a free food bin.
It was a form of community sharing, especially important for those with greater need.

[Two Americas]

33. yes

There are many strategies and ways to contribute. I don't mean to question what you are doing, rather I wanted to expand the scope of the discussion a little.

There is a stigma and embarrassment for people who need food, and we always are alert to anyone who is a little short on money and treat them like any other customer and quietly and inconspicuously make sure they leave with their car loaded up, especially if they have young children. Many growers do this. You don't want to advertise this or formalize it - being poor is hard enough without being made to jump through hoops or be treated like a pariah or fill out forms or something, you know? The fields are always open to people, and we look the other way and don't make a scene if someone takes the initiative to show up and ask, and wants to load their truck up with winter squash to keep their family fed. Or take a deer from the property, as far as that goes. It usually comes back to us in many ways.

Co-ops from the farm perspective is a different thing - cooperative marketing, storage, processing, packaging etc. Ocean Spray is a stellar example of a successful grower coop (unless some corporate agri-business behemoth has bought them out and I am not aware of that).

My main problem with CSA, food coops, farmers markets and organic is that they are geared to a very tiny percentage of the population, and do not scale up well, and we do need to feed everyone and feed them well and safely. That demands a public commitment to a public infrastructure of management and regulation and research and inspection. We want to be careful that we do not erode public support for political solutions to social problems for the public benefit, or give people a false and individualized "free market" view of the challenges.

[BronxBoy]

69. We do that and I think most honest growers would

But the problems in getting this food to those who need it is not only the job of the grower.

I'll give you an example. I ran our company's food drives this year and we worked with 2 local food banks. I am also the manager of the farmer's market we participate in. During these drives, I reached out to both of the directors of these co-ops and asked if they would like to work together to get surplus food into the hands of people who could use it. They both flat out refused. They pretty much cited the same reason: lack of storage facilities, people who didn't have cooking facilities etc. I know it's anecdotal but it was my reality.

As far as scaling up, that's fine for areas in which their is a critical mass to scale up. Once again, take my situation. I'm in a suburb north of Atlanta. Rapidly growing. Actually too rapidly growing. The few remaining farms that are here are being snapped up for developments and public projects, making me having to search further and further to find farmers and growers committed to growing wholesome, naturally sustainable food harder and harder to find. The onus is not simply on the growers but also on society to make sure that it provides an environment in which small growers can succeed.

[Two Americas]

79. great points, thanks

It is really encouraging to me to see people weighing in with so many great perspectives on ag subjects. I agree with you about the complexities of getting food to people who need it. We have something unique in America - for the first time in history the majority of the population is 3-4 generations removed from the farm. The average American takes food for granted and has no idea of what is involved in feeding the public. Millions of people in Chicago have to eat tomorrow, and it takes massive tonnage to do that and an enormous infrastructure. Disruption of that system can result in shortages very quickly, and the system is under intense pressure from a variety of directions - from the "free market" and speculators and profiteers, from the energy corporations converting farm land to fuel production, from developers, from unregulated imports and unfair competition, and from the collapse of the support agencies and research efforts, from the corporations that are consolidating their stranglehold on food production and distribution.

I know quite a few growers in northern Georgia, and yes they are under terrific pressure from developers.

"The onus is not simply on the growers but also on society to make sure that it provides an environment in which small growers can succeed." Absolutely, and that means political solutions, not consumer choice solutions, and a strengthened infrastructure at all levels. The hope is that we can muster public support for this before there is widespread hunger here, but the clock is ticking and we are flirting with catastrophe.

[BronxBoy]

64. Agreed.....

And talk to them. Ask questions and don't rely on a label such as "Organic" to guide your purchase. We encourage people to ask us questions about how we prevent pests without the use of manufactured pesticides and even invite some folks to come visit. Part of the beauty of buying local is you can speak with and question the people who have actually grown the food.

[Johonny]

16. taste better

well taste is generally a subjective thing. I imagine it depends on the individual. I've gotten some great farmers market food and some horrible stuff.

[yellowcanine]

22. Me too. And I have gotten some great tasting apples at Costco and some crappy ones.

The taste thing is extremely subjective and the experience context influences it as well. I have been in situations where even a dried up mealy apple would have tasted great.

[knitter4democracy]

35. *shudder* Bad apples are a boil on America's butt.

Come visit me up in Michigan during apple season. I'll get you some really great apples. Some even keep for a month or more in the fridge just fine. Nothing anywhere can beat a good Winesap or Honeycrisp or a Pink Lady or Pippin or Mutsu or anything good and fresh right off the tree. I just can't buy apples out of season, but when I do, I make sure they're Michigan apples (our environment makes for amazing flavor).

[Two Americas]

37. agreed

As I said in another post, I know thousands of growers and no matter where you are in the country I can get you to the high quality and unusual and heirloom fruit.

I am partial to Michigan, though, as well of course. With the increased fuel prices, family growers in the Midwest and the East are now able to compete with the imports for the local market. There should be an abundance of fresh locally grown apples and other fruits this year in the markets all through the Midwest and Northeast.

[knitter4democracy]

25. Don't get me started on apples.

I'm a bit of an apple-obsessive.

Long post short, always get apples in season from the orchard directly. Anything else is a far, far lesser product. U-pick is even better (and sometimes cheaper, though not always).

[Two Americas]

27. hey there

We keep running in the same circles.

By the way, knitter4democracy is the most informed fruit consumer I have ever met.

[knitter4democracy]

34. Aw, shucks.

I'm just massively obsessed, that's all. ;)

Another tip--don't buy apple cider unless you get it from the farm. They can call it American or from whatever state as long as it's bottled there. Some states require at least some local fruit in there, but much of it contains fruit from Argentina and elsewhere. If you want really local, amazing apple cider, get it straight from the orchard. Some orchards are better than others at it, but they're almost always (well, always in my experience) better than anything from the store.

Oh, and Michigan has the best produce, hands down. :D

[HughBeaumont]

45. Takes me back to 8th grade Cross Country.

Our practice route ran through an orchard. Fresh picked apples >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> store bought.

[Javaman]

70. On Long Island when I was a kid there was a cider mill in my community...

in the fall, my dad and I would go and pick up fresh pressed cider. It is the most amazing thing in the whole world.

I can still remember the taste.

we would save some for apple jack as well. ;) LOL

[Two Americas]

26. fresher, in season

The main variables that influence flavor are freshness (as much to do with storage method as how long off the tree, since many apple varieties, called "winter apples" improve in flavor in cold storage, being in season (ripe when picked, how long since picked), regional suitability (the right varieties being grown in the optimum conditions) and the varieties themselves. The larger growers standardize on color and size and shape parameters that have the best acceptance in the supermarket from consumers (though this is changing) while the smaller growers can justify keeping older varieties in production and building a niche market for them. Often, the breeder selecting for color, shape and size mitigates against flavor. The Jonagold apple is a good example. It won blind taste tests all over Europe, but Americans rejected it because of low color and irregular shape. Breeders propagated high color sports that look "better," but they do not have the flavor of the original.

Right now, three wonderful early American varieties have suddenly become at risk - Jonathon, Northern Spy, and Winesap. They don't size or color well, but who cares what food looks like if it tastes great? Folks in the Midwest and New England should buy those varieties if they see them so they don't disappear. On the West Coast, buy Gravenstein, Yellow Bellflower, and Sierra Beauty if you see them before they disappear. If growers see a demand, they will leave the trees in the ground. Otherwise, the intense economic pressure they are under forces them to pull the trees.

Ask the grower if a variety is a summer, fall or winter variety. Summer varieties do not keep well and are extremely variable in flavor - Ginger Gold being a notable exception. Winter apples are denser, have more complex flavor, higher nutrition, and they keep much better, with many varieties coming into peak flavor weeks or months after harvest. Fall apples are somewhere in between.

"Ripeness" and "season" are two different things. Fruit is picked when it is ripe, and reaches peak flavor when it is in its season. The apple Arkansas Black is ripe in early October, but reaches peak flavor couple of months after harvest, hence it is a prime example of a winter apple. Berries, cherries, peaches, nectarines, plums, and apricots are best right off the tree. Pears and apples continue to ripen and develop flavor after they are picked, so are often better after they have percolated for a while. Keeping fruit cold is vital, and I cringe to see fruit out at room temperature for even a couple of hours. Apples and pears should be stored separately from other produce, because they will cause other produce to ripen too fast as they out-gas and continue to ripen themselves.

There also is a psychological factor of expectation and anticipation, and food will taste better in different environments and when a person is more focused on the experience.

I say all this from personal experience of being involved in hundreds of blind taste tests with thousands of people and hundreds and hundreds of produce varieties, mostly fruit.

[knitter4democracy]

36. All three of those are always on my yearly list.

I am thinking of getting more Northern Spy to dry this year. I have to put up a lot more dried apples this year than last year (by a factor of ten--everyone kept stealing them from the cupboard!), and I've heard those dry well.

My mom's a Jonathan lover. We've found two good orchards not far away that have great ones every year (really good orchard owners who care about the quality of their crop). I'm still searching for the perfect Michigan winesap. *sigh*

[Two Americas]

38. winesap

I have found good Winesaps over at Spicers at M-59 and US23 - probably too far away from you. Teichman grows them and should have good ones.

I was really shocked to see Northern Spy start disappearing. There just are not enough people left who know what it is or appreciate it. Spies are so great for so many uses. Slice them up thin, saute them and out them on pancakes is an easy fun thing I do - or bake them. Wow I am building up an appetite now.

I had some dried Mutsu a while back that were fantastic, by the way.

I think modern Americans are afraid of food, if that makes sense. They don't understand it and don't know what they are looking for or what questions to ask. A young guy called me a while back and said "this might be weird but my wife really likes fresh apples, and as a birthday present I thought I would take her somewhere that they grow them. Is that a completely stupid question?" He had no clue where to go, what to look for, what to ask. I recommended a place right near him, and he said "you mean I can just walk in and pick them off of a tree?" Yep. lol. And then of course people ask all of the time what the "best" apple is, and how to tell, and what the differences are from one apple to the next. They just don't know, so it is intimidating for them.

Another call I got - a studio in California was planning on shooting a commercial (for a pharmaceutical product lol) and they needed an apple orchard with apples on the tree. I gave them an address in New Zealand and there was this long pause on the other end of the line. "Why New Zealand?" she asked. "Because it is April" I told her. Doh.

The there was the time the national produce buyer from (a big well-known boutique produce chain that will go unidentified) in March and asked about size, quality and availability of a particular apple variety. In March. The head corporate produce buyer.

[knitter4democracy]

40. Real Winesaps, not Turleys?

The red ones with a bit of striping/dotting (depending on the apple) with a nice kick? I will totally drive over there and get a couple of bushels this fall.

Mutsus mixed with Turley winesaps make kick-ass homecanned apple pie filling. Do a pint jar of that with a pint jar of Michigan peaches and a handful of Michigan dried cherries, and you have yourself an amazing pie. I do them up for church and home all the time, but I've had to ration out my pie filling to get me through. Hubby helped me last year, and we both agreed that we need to double what we did last year and triple or more the dried apples.

I took a friend who grew up in inner city Gary to an apple orchard with me once (was getting more winesaps at Eddy's on the east side of Cleveland--great, great place with amazing winesaps!). She'd never seen an apple tree before, let alone eat an apple right off the tree. She was shocked when I tried one to see if they'd gone mealy or not, so I handed her one, and the look on her face was priceless. She'd only ever had Washington Red Delicious (aka crap), and she was so shocked at the flavor that she almost dropped the apple. Then she asked me what it was. When I stopped laughing, I told her all about apples, and now she is a total convert.

Oh, should I spray my little winesap now? I'd hate to spray it, really, but I know it's needed. It's just a wee thing I found by magic at Big Lots, of all places. Is it the right time to start spraying now? My dad had a small orchard he started when I was a kid, and I remember him spraying in the summer but not the spring.

[Two Americas]

47. the tree looks great!

Great growth, healthy leaves. Did it bloom? You might not want to hear this but I would lop off that branch toward the viewer. It is really starting out too low, and you want most of the energy to go into a good strong leader and build a strong scaffolding for fruit load. You might even want to take off that limb on the left as well. That will spur more vigorous growth in the leader and result in a stronger more durable tree. Stronger scaffold, more sun getting in to the fruit down the road.



http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/hgic1351.htm

I am sure that Spicers had real Winesaps, but I haven't been there in a couple of years. They had great Strawberry Chenango apples - ever try those? and also Wealthy. Give Wanda Spicer a call and ask her.

Spicer Orchards
10411 Clyde Rd.
Fenton, MI 48430
[phone]
http://www.spicerorchards.com/

You should know about Southmeadow Fruit Gardens, by the way -

Southmeadow Fruit Gardens
Baroda, MI 49101
Phone [phone]
http://www.southmeadowfruitgardens.com/


MSU extension is a great resource for disease and insect control -
http://web1.msue.msu.edu/vanburen/organasp.htm

The "organic" spray program relies on Copper Sulfate, Lime Sulfur, Pyrethrum, Rotinone, and Sabadilla, requires a lot of spraying, and is not very effective. Too hazardous in my view - though "natural."

"To successfully grow apples organically under Michigan conditions growers must recognize that the limited number of organically approved insect and disease control chemicals that are available leave them particularly susceptible to two major insect pests, Plum Curculio and Apple Maggot since no real good organic controls have been devised for these insects. Major diseases of apples can be controlled but require many frequent sprays particularly from silver tip to 4 weeks after petal fall."

Here are the recommendations:

http://web1.msue.msu.edu/vanburen/homespr2.htm

MSU apple page:

http://web1.msue.msu.edu/fruit/apple.htm

Pruning guides:

http://www.apple-works.com/pruning.html
http://www.uri.edu/research/ipm/growing.htm

Good article from Esteban Herrera at New Mexico State extension -
{b]Training Young Apple Trees to the Modified Central Leader System
http://www.cahe.nmsu.edu/pubs/_h/h-306.html

"Prune the young apple tree to develop a strong framework and a desirable form for easy spraying and harvesting. Heavy pruning dwarfs a young tree and delays bearing. Unpruned, young trees often develop multiple trunks near the base and many narrow-angled, weak crotches between the main scaffold branches and the trunk."

Pruning suggestions from MSU

* If the newly set tree is a single, unbranched whip, head it back about 30 inches after the tree is planted

* If the newly set tree is already branched, or if it is the second year after planting a single whip tree, select one or two of the best wide-angle branches at least 20 inches from the ground and separated from each other by 6 to 10 inches. Remove all other branches arising from the trunk except the central leader (trunk). Head back the central leader to 30 to 40 inches and shorten the one or two wide-angle branches selected to 15 to 18 inches.

* In the next year, select one or two more wide-angle branches along the central leader, each separated by 6 to 10 inches. Shorten the newly selected branches to 15 to 18 inches. Remove all other branches arising from the trunk, except the selected wide-angle branches and the central leader . A total of three to six wide-angle branches should be selected during the first one to three years after planting. This forms the framework of the tree. Note: In selecting wide-angle branches, attempt to space them around the tree trunk.

Pruning in the fourth and subsequent years will be to: 1) Remove broken or crossing branches, 2). Cut out watersprouts (see Figure 7), 3) Thin out crowded branches, 4) Cut back branches that grow beyond a 5-foot spread or 10-foot height to a strong side branch.

[knitter4democracy]

52. Copy. Paste. Save!

Thank you for all those links!

I got the tree for thirteen bucks early this spring and was worried it wouldn't make it. Then, all of a sudden, it leafed out like that. It still hasn't blossomed--do I wait to prune until after it blossoms like with other bushes? I was wondering about pruning, since the lowest branch would be pretty low for fruit. I remember my dad constantly pruning his trees bit by bit. It it a good time to prune now? I also remember he tried the organic stuff one year and gave up in disgust. I have bought a small sprayer just for the tree, but I was worried it was too soon. I'll call my local extension office tomorrow and see what they say.

I e-mailed Spicers, so we'll see if they still have any trees. I'll try that other orchard this year, too. I'll add it to my rotation, as it were. :) We really go through a lot of apples for drying and such, though probably most don't make it there and get eaten first.

I remember my first Fuji. A church friend of ours worked at MSU's apple research facility, and we visited him one day. He took us down into the basement's coolers and took out a 10 month old Fuji that tasted like it was right off the tree. Fred took us all around and showed us everything, and I didn't want to leave. It sounded like the best job ever, to work around apple trees all year long. I never realized just how special Michigan State was (my dad worked there at their cyclotron lab for 30-some years) until we got married and moved to Cleveland.

[Two Americas]

58. winter apples

Of the newer varieties, Fuji, Mutsu and Braeburn are good keepers and can improve in flavor after harvest. Those are three great newer varieties, as are Swiss Gourmet, Gala, Pink Lady, Honeycrisp and Ginger Gold in my opinion. Not all of the great varieties are heirlooms.

Oh, are you looking for Winesap trees? Wasn't sure. Definitely go to Southmeadow Fruit Gardens then for trees. It may be too late now, but give them a call. Spicers is a source for the apples, not the trees.

It is not too late to prune - apple trees are very hardy and we do pruning right through the year, almost. Before bloom, after bloom, after harvest.

Michigan State may well be the top horticulture facility in the world. Cornell and East Malling in England are right up there too.

[knitter4democracy]

59. I'm going to cut off the lowest branch today.

Question, though: there's one that's obviously the leader, but there's another branch that is as tall and almost looks like a fork. Should I cut that one and the lowest one? Or, should I just trim back the second tallest one and lop off the two lowest branches? I'm going to call my extension office today, but I thought you might have a better idea of what to do. If I call there, I'm not guaranteed to get an apple person.

[Two Americas]

61. took me a while to get used to

The most successful tree training method that has gotten more and more standard in Michigan over the last 30 years seemed way too radical to me at first, and I still sort of cringe watching the aggressive pruning happen on new trees. I noticed in other places I visited they are still not using this method of building on strong leaders and the trees look weird to me now - sprawling and weak. I know that in the orchard the guys and gals would take both of those branches off, and that in a year they would have a much stronger leader, and 2-5 years down the road a much stronger tree. When we plant the new trees, the pruners just go through mercilessly and cut everything off so that there is only the whip, and then watch the new branches start and as they do only keep the ones that are perfect placed and joined (nice acute angle, high enough off of the ground, not opposite to another branch, but staggered.) It seems real extreme at first, but it works.

Aggressive pruning encourages new foliage and blossoms, by the way.

You realize that the root and the trunk are two different varieties that are grafted together, yes? Branches from below the graft will not be true to the variety, and roots above the graft will inherit the qualities of the top graft and not the root stock. You can actually micromanage tree growth ny permitting or preventing roots forming from the top graft.

[knitter4democracy]

74. I'm going to cut off both lower branches, then.

The fork-like one is awfully strong and at a decent angle. I'll keep an eye on it and see what happens. If it's not right, I'll trim it off later. Thanks!

Oh, and I got the fruit tree spray stuff today. I hate using such strong chemicals, but they really are the only ones that work.

[Two Americas]

78. coddling moth

Coddling moth is the big worry. Sometimes "strong" is better, IF it is highly targeted, bio-degradable and not persistent. One thing is that you may be relatively immune to many diseases if you are not too close to an orchard. Trees in an orchard and in an intense fruit growing region are like kids going to school - more likely to pick up bugs.

In wish people had more perspective and proportion about this. Every school, every office building, every supermarket, every daycare, every restaurant, every produce warehouse, every lawn and every home is routinely sprayed with pesticides, often by untrained personnel and with little or no regulation and supervision, and as a result suburban environments are vastly more hazardous and contaminated than farm land is.

[knitter4democracy]

88. My dad would agree with that.

He worked in an experimental physics lab that had radiation to deal with (MSU's cyclotron), and he used to say that, if everyone had to deal with the NSF and OSHA regulations they did, there would be ten foot high cement walls around every yard and field.

I cut the two lowest branches off, but now I can't get the dang sprayer together. All these pieces and no directions. Ugh.

[Two Americas]

92. MSU

MSU is doing great work on biological controls, but they need more funding and support. They have a reproductive disruption strategy for coddling moth - they isolated the pheromone that the moths use to attract each other, and that prevents mating so no eggs and no worms in the fruit.

Ironically, the organic movement is now working against this type of science, by weakening public support for this work and eroding the political will, and by siphoning off funding that could be used for research and instead is used to promote the organic belief system.

All a politician needs to do now is say "I support organic" and they are off the hook. We need to pressure them to support serious research and restore the regulatory structures the right wingers have been busy tearing down and crippling on behalf of their corporate clients.

[Richard Steele]

30. Not "always" better, but pretty darn close to always!

The "mass produced" produce varieties grown by industrial farming operations
has been specifically developed to have some specific characteristics:
Fast, abundant growth
Attractive & UNIFORM appearance
Ability to withstand long transport/storage periods between farm & consumer.

By the time they develop a plant that does all that, actual FLAVOR
is barely an afterthought to the big AgriCorps.



Small local growers have the freedom to grow produce that actually tastes good,
as opposed to the produce that will look pretty after spending a week in a box
in the back of a tractor trailer.

[MzNov]

41. The difference is amazing.

You can also find many organic fruits and veggies, and there is no comparison. And the prices are very very low considering the food prices in grocery stores.

I spent $20 last Saturday and had a cart-full of goodies.

[Subdivisions]

46. Last summer I attended a green festival in Fredericksburg,

Texas where I met an aquaintance from another forum. He is a biological conservationist of the state and is in the process of becoming self-sufficient at home. He's installed solar, wind, and water catchment system and has planted several fruit and nut trees as well as putting in a garden. He drives a hybrid.

He had brought with him a couple of lemon trees to give me as a gift. And he brought bottled rainwater and limes. He sliced the lime into quarters and handed me a slice. My taste buds came truly alive for the first time since I can remember. It was a literally an explosivly delightful experience.

I'm growing the lemon trees and I've put a small potted garden on my terrace as a result of that lime experience.

[knitter4democracy]

53. Mmmm. Real lemon trees.

I'd bet that ripe lemons right off the tree would be much, much better than what I can get back here in Michigan. I got to eat tangerines once that had fallen off the trees, they were so ripe, and I'll never forget how awesome they were.

[MazeRat7]

51. Food from your own garden taste even better -nt

[DFW]

60. I'm in Europe most of the time, so that's where we get most of our food.

[Le Taz Hot]

62. Not all farmers markets are created equal.

At least that's true in my area. There are many farmers markets around here that are full of vendors who get a wholesale license and go to the local produce houses to buy their produce. From there, they charge you another 1/3 or so for the same cardboard produce you get from the grocery stores. The REAL farmers markets are those in which the produce is literally going from the field to the farmer's kiosk and then is sold to you. The produce from these really is imminently better and better for you as they've most likely been grown with little or no chemical additives and they're picked, generally, within 24 hours of selling it to you.

The added bonus, of course, is that this stuff isn't shipped from hundreds, or even thousands of miles away, using precious fossil fuels, AND from countries that still allow the use of pesticides LONG banned from this country, such as DDT.

Here's one of my local favorites which is S.O.R. in the summer: http://www.vineyardfarmersmarket.com/

[BronxBoy]

65. True....

And it takes an educated consumer to seperate the wheat from the chaff. If the tomatoes are all uniform in size with perfect coloring and relatively blemish free, the chances are pretty great that these are mass produced tomatoes which the vendor is reselling. And if they have something which other local vendors don't have due to season, that's another tip off.

[Two Americas]

84. it is a problem

It is just not worthwhile for most real farmers to participate in farmers' markets. I am not sure how to overcome that. So often I have had activists tell me "no, no we have real farmers at ours" and then when I go investigate, it is not true. If there are a hundred vendors, there may be a handful of serious growers, but it is mostly people who are not farmers, or who are weekend or hobby growers or gardeners. The few farmers who may be there are often the least progressive, the ones who do not have much alternative or who are just dumping their inferior produce. This varies a lot in different areas of the country, by the way. I think that most consumers don't know what a farmer is anymore, or have a romanticized and idyllic few that has no connection to reality, and cannot judge the quality of produce either. All of that makes for a "buyer beware" situation at farmers markets. In the Midwest, one is as likely to find high quality fresh locally grown fruit in the supermarkets (in season) than in a farmers market.

Why should a farmer travel and spend the whole day wrestling with the public for minimal return, and neglect the farm for the day, when he can sell a hundred times more produce by loading trucks for Chicago tonight, where tomorrow morning many, many more people will have access to the same fresh high quality produce than ever go to a farmers' market?

One thing consumers can do is to talk to the produce manager at the store about where he or she is getting their produce, and let them know what you want. So few do, and they are usually responsive to consumer input. If they don't know that people want fresh locally grown high quality produce, they have no incentive to accommodate that. It is easier for them to just order whatever the food distributor usually has on the truck and in the warehouse.

[maryf]

89. Our grocer buys a lot local

He gets range fed eggs, clean meat (I'm veggie but hear its good quality), and produce from local farmers, the prices at the grocery are a little high (produce is low prices!!), but they do so much community service, and the quality is so good its worth it.

[Two Americas]

93. that is great

Gotta support folks like that.

[Tracer]

67. Strawberries and Peaches!

I can hardly wait for strawberry season! Locally grown and hand-picked (by me!) are soooo juicy and delicious.

I have a box of supermarket berries in my fridge right now, and although they are big and red --- they are almost tasteless. Why I spent $3.99 on them is a mystery.

And peaches? I wouldn't think of buying out-of-season peaches. But later in the summer, hoo boy, locally grown little balls of goodness have my name on them.

[BronxBoy]

68. Not only does it taste better....

but you get the following benefits:

Variety-There are close to 5,000 varieties of tomatoes in the world in colors ranging from the stanrad red to purple to white. Your chances of encountering a wider selection is much greater at a farmer's market than a supermarket.

Knowledge-If you buy you food from a person who has actually grown it, that person will be a wealth of knowledge on how to prepare, save and enjoy that particular food. They can let you know for example, what tomatoes and peppers would be better suited for drying than others. Or what apples are perfect candidates for a pie.


New Experiences-At many farmers markets, you may encounter foods that you may never have heard of such as certain ethnic foods. Learning about these foods can add some variety to your diet.

While many local growers stick with traditional crops, please do not cheat yourself and not experiment with something unusual. All tomatoes are not red or orange. So try some of the other colors if you have the chance. Trust me the taste will oftentimes blow your mind.

I read a thread on DU recently where a person was bemoaning the state of her CSA. Most of her complaints were vaild but she lost me when she said that she freaked out when she her delivery included a batch of blue potatoes. Said she didn't have time to find a recipe for a blue potato. I thought to myself, "it might be blue but it's still a potato"

and blue potatoes as well as cranberry and gold are DELICIOUS!

[kath]

72. CAUTION - not all "farmers' markets" are REAL farmers' markets.

Some include vendors who buy from the same wholesalers that the crappy supermarket produce comes from, then sell it at a marked-up price.
The one here in our town does that, and it really pisses me off. When we lived in the St. Louis area, there was a market where it was the same bullshit - people just re-selling supermarket crap. There is a market in OKC that sells only OK-grown, but the long drive makes it an expensive trip, plus the prices are pretty high.

What you want is a market that certifies that all the vendors are actually selling locally grown stuff, and that reinforces that rule. When we lived in Evanston IL, there was a fantastic REAL farmers' market, and they were strict about enforcing the rules. How I miss it - fresh apple cider to die for, local strawberries from which hubby and I made the best homemade strawberry ice cream EVER, lots of other good stuff at good prices. I'm practically drooling on the keyboard just thinking about it! :-)

[Two Americas]

83. exactly

There are some good things happening in the farmers' market trend, in CSA, and in organic. But the notion that those are the only way to go, or that they guarantee anything, or that they are politically progressive or can take the place of a national food policy, is dangerous and destructive.

Nothing takes the place of a comprehensive national food policy for the benefit of all of the people, not merely the upscale or fortunate few, nothing takes the place of a strong public agricultural infrastructure, and nothing takes the place of research, inspection, regulation and public support for farmers and farm communities.

The degree to which farmers markets, CSA and organic support those essential things, they are progressive and good. The degree to which they mitigate against or sabotage those essential things - and they do in many ways - they are reactionary and bad.

[1]

73. small farmers, organic or not, grow real produce...

a great test is the tomato.

pick up a tomato. smell it. if it smells like a tomato (and i can not describe this, but if you try a few you will know) it is a tomato.

if you grow tomatoes on a large commercial farm, the tomatoes have to be picked by machines. the tomatoes need to be able to withstand this picking process. that's a hard thing for a tomato. these machines rip you from the ground, separate you from your vine, and move you along to deposit you in a large bin.

and then that tomato goes on to be packaged/boxed and shipped across some distance to its destination. so that tomato must be harvested when its mostly ripe but not too ripe, to endure all of this. but its genetic makeup was absolutely manufactured to be picked and shipped well. not to taste good.


most (but not all, to be fair) small farmers, organic or not, do not use machines to harvest their tomatoes. they allow tomatoes to ripen. they pick them by hand and make them available to you.

do some use pesticides? yes. are pesticides bad? no. not always, if you've ever tried to grow tomatoes.

smell your tomatoes. buy your tomatoes from a local farmer. wash your tomatoes before you eat them. you will not be harmed but you will get the greatest tomatoes you've ever had.

[JerseygirlCT]

80. Sure. It's likely more fresh - no long travel time to get to you

I miss having one right nearby.

[kestrel91316]

85. Farmer's markets often carry varieties of produce that

don't ship well, but happen to taste a lot better. They are picked riper because they don't have to travel an average of 1500 miles. What you get is grown with more care (often organic) and is much fresher.

I LOVE our farmer's market.