"I want to watch you pee into this paper cup to see if you have been taking drugs."

[Sapphire Blue]

Homeless Shelters:
A Feeble Response to Homelessness
Betty Reid Mandell


HOW WOULD YOU LIKE SOMEONE to say to you, "Come with me into the bathroom? I want to watch you pee into this paper cup to see if you have been taking drugs." That is what is happening in some shelters for homeless families in Massachusetts. Steve Valero, a lawyer at Greater Boston Legal Services, is indignant about this and has been telling shelters that it is an illegal practice. Some shelter directors claim they had no idea it was illegal. They thought it would be better to have all residents tested for drugs rather than singling out one person.

Valero said that he tells those directors they have it backwards. It might be legal to single out a person whom you suspect of being on drugs if that person was behaving as if she is drugged -- for example, if she seems completely stoned and is neglecting her kids. But to test everybody routinely is an illegal invasion of privacy.

One shelter resident said that she had to undergo drug testing every week for over 40 weeks, with a staff member watching her pee, even though she has never taken drugs.

The war on drugs has invaded shelters for the homeless, treating homeless people as criminals. In this article I discuss the causes of homelessness, how the shelter system, which was presumably a temporary response to homelessness, has become institutionalized as the dominant response, and how it is used for social control. I discuss the various approaches to ending homelessness, many of them distractions from the main cause -- poverty.

~ snip ~

Blaming the Victim

I AM BEMUSED by announcements that come over the radio from time to time by foundations or institutes saying they are studying the causes of homelessness and seeking cures. In fact, the causes are quite simple and have been studied quite enough. Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services. It is true that many of the homeless are alcoholics or drug addicts, but they need a home while they are coping with their problem, and they need treatment programs, and both are in short supply. It is also true that many of the homeless have emotional problems. Who wouldn't have emotional problems if they were homeless? But they need a home while they are coping with their problems and they need support services. Both are in short supply. A disproportionate number of foster children who have "aged out" of the foster care system are homeless. A disproportionate number of veterans are homeless. It is the fault of the government that they are in this condition, but the government has deserted them. A large percentage of homeless women have been abused.29 While they may need a temporary refuge to escape the abuser and counseling to help them heal, they also need permanent housing, childcare, a job that pays a living wage, and social supports.

The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems and obscures the real causes of homelessness. It leads to stereotyping of homeless people as deviant and degenerate, drunk or drugged, or crazy. When these stereotypes are embedded in people's minds, they view every beggar as a scammer. Stereotyping leads to criminalizing the homeless, allowing cities to sweep them from the streets.30 It gives implicit permission to delinquent thugs to beat them up. One man made a series of documentaries in which homeless men fight each other, while being plied with liquor. Reality show producers took the homeless on shopping trips as a subject of amusement. On the Boston radio station WBCN-FM, DJs Opie and Anthony ran an event called the Homeless Shopping Spree, taking street people to a high-end shopping center, giving them liquor and money to shop, and ridiculing their purchases for the amusement of their listeners. Boston's Mayor Menino publicly expressed his outrage at the show.


Much, much more to read @ http://www.wpunj.edu/~newpol/issue43/BMandell43.htm#n43



"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."

[Morrisons Ghost]

1. It

Can also be caused by serious substance abuse problems. that being said the whole watching someone pee in a cup thing is a little extreme. they don't even do that on a drug test for employment.

[Sapphire Blue]

5. "The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems...

... and obscures the real causes of homelessness."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."

[klook]

10. Exactly.

Drug use doesn't cause homelessness.

And if staying off drugs prevented homelessness, that would be great news for lot of residents of shelters like these!

[mrreowwr_kittty]

16. If anything, the homelessness probably causes the drug abuse.

I really wish the canards of how homeless people are addicts/mentally ill/choose to be would die out. I can't tell you how many people, including progressives, will repeat these RW myths about it.

[Elidor]

77. These first few posts really resonate with me

I've seen at least one homeless person on this board try to make these points, though they did so very inartfully and with a big chip on their shoulder. But now I see it with great clarity, thanks to Sapphire Blue's laser focus on that one line:

The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems.

And, having fallen or been pushed all the way to the bottom, don't you dare be trying to feel good. A homeless man may work for shit wages on a construction site all day in the hot sun, but he may not have a cold beer when he gets off. Apparently, he has forfeited all right to be a human being, and must now submit to the whims of whatever religious martinets have got hold of him. He must do what they say or go away. But that's a minor point. The main thing is:

The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems.

I'd like to print that out in 48-point type and hang it on the wall for a few days, until it sinks in completely. It seems so obvious, but it's not. Good thread so far. I'm loathe to read the rest, because I think I know where it's going to head.

[Sapphire Blue]

81. Thank you for what you said about seeing it with great clarity, Hardhead.

I'm thankful if I helped in any way!

[raccoon]

120. "The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems."

That deserves repeating.

The way this has showed up in my own life is, when I tell people I work but don't have any medical insurance through my employer, they may urge me to try to get a benefited position at my current employer (Gosh, I never thought of that :silly: ) or imply that I'M the problem because I'M the one who doesn't have group medical, therefore there's something wrong with me.

[Riktor]

106. Correction

Habitual drug use is listed as a major cause of homelessness.

That said, this is primarily due to the illicit status of most habitual drugs. The prohibition of narcotics and other addictive substances has created a market in which prices are grossly inflated. Prior to their prohibition, narcotics were relatively inexpensive, mildly addictive, and relatively safe. Now, they are expensive, highly addictive, and range from mildly toxic to lethal (due to lack of regulation in synthesis and the addition of unsafe cutting agents by unregulated suppliers).

Before they were banned outright, narcotics were widely available in various tonics, drinks, tobacco products, what have you. It is safe to assume that a large portion of the American populace was once at least mildly addicted to these substances in some manner or another. Despite that, the populace was still relatively productive; people didn't lose their jobs for consuming laudenum or smoking "coke-arettes". Today, the illicit status of drugs makes it virtually impossible for those with such addictions to maintain jobs.

Thus, the combination of inflated prices and a taboo on drug addiction have created an environment whereby it is very easy for those addicted to drugs to become homeless.

[bobbolink]

134. Actually, it's a BLAMING technique that bears little resemblance to the truth.

A very large number of homeless people are CHILDREN. They are neither alikies nor druggies.

It's just an old tale used to blame and ignore homeless people.

[Riktor]

152. You misinterpret...

Drug addiction is not something I condemn, nor is it a reason to ignore the homeless. The fact of the matter remains, a significant portion of those addicted to narcotics are homeless. This doesn't suggest the majority of homeless people are drug addicts, merely that "homeless" is an umbrella term encompassing many demographics, of which "drug addict" happens to be a part.

[bobbolink]

153. I didn't "misinterpret". While I appreciate that YOU don't judge people, that is not the norm.

We all get judged, and if you can imagine, trying to constantly defend yourself against all these judgments, even though they don't pertain to you, just because it's the general perception.

If you actually talk with homeless people, and listen to what they say about their experience, you will find that this is a HUGE problem for all of us.

Again, I will repeat... I'm glad *you* aren't judging people.... but most 'Murkins do, and it hurts us tremendously.

[Riktor]

159. Regardless...

To clarify, I do not condone the actions mentioned in the OP, nor was it my intention to justify said actions by my little history lesson.

However, homelessness, and poverty in general, cannot be linked to a singular cause. It is a dynamic problem resulting from a variety of causes, some independent of one another. One of those many causes happens to be chemical dependence, and this can be backed up with empirical evidence. Therefore, it is irresponsible to neglect this cause because one fears how the public will perceive it. To do so is not only disingenuous, but irresponsible as well.

To further illustrate this point, I would like to share a story involving a graduate student I once knew. This student was earning his Ph.D. in criminology when he stumbled across some findings which seemed contrary to his liberal world-view. He confronted his Principal Investigator, confiding that he was afraid to publish this information, that it may lead policy-makers down a path he objected to on a moral level. His PI wisely advised him, "If you don't publish this information, somebody else will. It is better you do it and try to reconcile it with your preexisting opinions, than have somebody publish it in the context of his or her world-view."

Thus, I feel the best way to approach the issue of drug addiction amongst the homeless is to admit that it is, to at least some degree, prevalent. From there, we can discuss how to fix the problem in a sane, rational, objective manner.

[Sapphire Blue]

163. A little history lesson

... through one woman's eyes:

-------------------------------------

Criminal of Poverty: Growing Up Homeless in America
Posted by Sapphire Blue in General Discussion
Wed Feb 21st 2007, 08:46 AM


Criminal of Poverty: Growing Up Homeless in America
by Lisa (Tiny) Gray-Garcia


Lisa Gray-Garcia (at left) and Laure McElroy demonstrate for affordable housing at the S.F. Federal Building, during the release of the WRAP report, Without Housing.


(excerpt)

It is illegal to be homeless in America. Poverty is an act of violence. Like thousands of unheard, unseen, very low-income and no-income children, families and individuals living in poverty in America, I have been incarcerated for those crimes. I am a criminal of poverty.

I have authored a book, Criminal of Poverty, that tells my story, my mother's story and my grandmother's story -- three generations of poor women in America. It focuses on the criminalization of poor families, poor women, mothers and children through the telling of one family's struggle with poverty and homelessness.

My story also illuminates the root causes of poverty through the story of three generations: my grandmother, an Irish immigrant, teenage mother and battered woman in pre-New Deal patriarchal America; my mother, a mixed-race child surrendered to foster care and survivor of abuse who tried for many years to escape her childhood torture until one day the struggle became too great; and finally me, a daughter raised by a poor single mother who lived "one paycheck away from homelessness" until finally there was no longer a paycheck to keep us housed.

(snip)

The clearest example of this process was the "clean-up" of New York's Times Square under the mayoral administration of Rudolph Giuliani. In the 1990s, while HUD was reducing its overall budget by 90 percent, and simultaneously demolishing housing projects and exchanging housing for mostly useless and unredeemable Section 8 vouchers, Mayor Giuliani launched his Clean-Up New York campaign.

He began with a proclamation: "Panhandlers, peddlers, and prostitutes must be cleaned out." Giuliani made a public link between sex-workers, unlicensed vendors, street artists and panhandlers. He presided over a racist, classist effort to purge New York City of any visible trace of its vast number of poor and low-income inhabitants in a push to create a Disneyfied, tourist-friendly city.

Giuliani's "clean-up campaign" was so successful in achieving that goal that it became the model for cities across America as they strove for more tourist dollars, redevelopment money and real estate increases.

Please read this entire article @ http://www.thestreetspirit.org/Dec2006/criminal.htm


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Sapphire%20Blue/179

-------------------------------------


Riktor, since you seem to believe that drug addiction causes homelessness, why isn't every drug addict homeless? Why do a 'significant' number of drug addicts live in luxury? Any why is it that they can afford the more expensive drugs?

The best way to approach the issue of drug addiction amongst drug addicts from ALL walks of life is to admit that it is a healthcare issue, and address it as a healthcare issue.

Riktor, I wish you would walk away from everything that you have, everything that you know, live on the street for a while, and LEARN something about the reality that so many people actually live.


Indigo Blue (Sapphire Blue's daughter)

[Riktor]

183. Straw Man

Riktor, since you seem to believe that drug addiction causes homelessness, why isn't every drug addict homeless? Why do a 'significant' number of drug addicts live in luxury? Any why is it that they can afford the more expensive drugs?


Nowhere did I say drug addiction CAUSES homelessness. You are confusing causation with correlation- a principal misunderstanding of the nature of statistics.

As I've already stated, the chief problem with illicit drugs is that they are illicit. It is illegal possess, sell, or be under the influence of them. Thus, one who is addicted to drugs will have a difficult time finding employment due to random-drug testing, pre-hire drug testing, possibility of arrest, and the social stigma that is attached to being addicted to drugs.

Wealthy drug addicts are unlikely to face these situations. They are hired straight into senior positions (no drug testing) and they are less likely to viewed with suspicion by the police (no arrests). Thus, they can afford an expensive drug habit because they do not face the same risks poor drug users do.

The best way to approach the issue of drug addiction amongst drug addicts from ALL walks of life is to admit that it is a healthcare issue, and address it as a healthcare issue.

That is precisely my point.

Drug addiction did not become a major problem for this country until it was declared a criminal behavior.

Riktor, I wish you would walk away from everything that you have, everything that you know, live on the street for a while, and LEARN something about the reality that so many people actually live.

You don't know anything about me, where I've been, or what I've needed to do to survive, so don't presume you have some moral authority with which to patronize me.

[Sapphire Blue]

186. You said that drug addiction causes homelessness in your reply just above:

"However, homelessness, and poverty in general, cannot be linked to a singular cause. It is a dynamic problem resulting from a variety of causes, some independent of one another. One of those many causes happens to be chemical dependence,"


Regarding treating drug addiction as a healthcare issue, I'm talking about the adverse health effects of drug addiction. I don't think that was your point. Your point seemed to be the legal status.


You're right, I don't know anything about you, where you've been, or what you've needed to do to survive, and I don't presume that I have some moral authority with which to patronize you. I only know what you've posted here, and that's what I'm responding to.

[Riktor]

187. Whoops...

However, homelessness, and poverty in general, cannot be linked to a singular cause. It is a dynamic problem resulting from a variety of causes, some independent of one another. One of those many causes happens to be chemical dependence,

Alright, you got me. That was a poor choice of words on my part, and that did not convey what I was trying to get across. I apologize.

What I'm trying to get at here is that drug addiction plays a part in the homelessness of some individuals. This is so because of elitist nature of drug laws and the bigoted-manner of their enforcement.

I don't know how up to speed you are on social psychology, so I'll give you a crash course (and I hope I don't trip over my tongue again):

Fundamental Attribution Error: The tendency of human beings to attribute the failings of others to internal, dispositional causes.

Basically, if you see a person run a red light and you call him an "asshole", you've made the assumption he failed to act in a normative manner because he's a jerk (internal, dispositional). Not many people would guess the fellow ran the red light because his brakes failed (an external, situational cause).

"The American Dream" is built entirely on this erroneous assertion. Americans generally believe those who are wealthy are so because they are hard working, while those who are poor are so because they are lazy. The Elite like this because it gives the false impression anyone can be wealthy with enough hard work. At the same time, the public derides the poor for being poor; the public becomes less sympathetic to the plight of the unfortunate, as they see the unfortunate as being so by choice.

The same applies to drug addicts. We are led to believe those addicted to drugs are "bad people". This compounds problems for homeless addicts, who doubly-loathed as "lazy" and "bad".

The stereotype of the drug-addled homeless is propagated by the Fundamental Attribution Error, as people look for internal causes for homelessness, a reason to believe people are homeless by choice.

My point is that drug addiction is an external, situational factor in homelessness. Drugs were made illegal with little to no moral justification, and in effect, turned a great many Americans into criminals- particularly the lower classes. Even today, drug laws are skewed to punish the poor more than rich. Possession of coke will get you a slap on the wrist, while possession of crack will get you serious prison-time. The police actively patrol poor neighborhoods in search of drug-dealers and users, while never setting foot in wealthier neighborhoods.

The only way to fix this, and effectively take away the stereotype of the homeless addict, is to decriminalize drugs and offer treatment to addicts.

[Sapphire Blue]

188. I get your point that drug addiction plays a part in the homelessness of SOME individuals.

(And thank you for stressing "some".) And it plays a part in the circumstances of SOME individuals in all walks of life. We run into a problem when it is considered a CAUSE for a person's circumstance, as you explained so well in your reply.


You suggest decriminalizing drugs to fix or take away the stereotype of the "homeless addict"; I don't think that's a solution for fixing or taking away any stereotype. Alcohol is legal, yet homeless people get stereotyped as alcoholics. We've got to stop stereotyping people. We've got to stop blaming the victim.



"The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems and obscures the real causes of homelessness. It leads to stereotyping of homeless people as deviant and degenerate, drunk or drugged, or crazy."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."

[Riktor]

191. Let me clarify

Alcoholics are still viewed negatively as alcoholism is not seen as a serious medical condition by most people. Again, thanks to our society's reliance on the Fundamental Attribution Error, alcoholics are viewed as being the architects of their own misery.

Properly educating the public of the exact nature of addictive behaviors certainly couldn't hurt in remedying this problem. After all, no one assumes demonic possession is to blame for sneezing these days....

[bobbolink]

165. Fine. I'll continue to suffer the consequences of being assumed alkie, druggie

and "mentally ill".

After all, what do *I* matter????????????????

Let me know when you're able to actually HEAR the suffering of others, rather than preach from your right brain "liberal" stance.

[Riktor]

185. Listen to yourself

You're hurling hostility at me for pointing out there's something seriously fucked up with our system, simply because it lends a minute amount of credibility to a stereotype... a stereotype we both agree is not true for a great many homeless Americans.

As I've said in other posts, our government will stop at nothing to preserve the belief that "you are what you make of yourself". This is the "American Dream", the lie the public is told to cover up the otherwise glaringly obvious fact most people have little to no control over their destiny.

If drugs weren't in the picture, the government would assign the public some other internal cause for homelessness, anything to make most people believe that the homeless are homeless by choice, not by circumstance.

Right now, drugs are an easy answer. D.A.R.E., the police, the government, churches, and professional athletes have beat it into peoples' heads that drug users are "bad people". Thus, if a drug user happens to be homeless, he is homeless because he is a "bad person", and is undeserving of sympathy.

See where I am going with this?

Drug laws have been written to criminalize a section of poorer America. The punishment for crack cocaine is more severe than the punishment for possession of cocaine, because crack is a "poor" drug and coke is a drug of the middle and upper classes. Meanwhile, Marijuana was made illegal as a means of encouraging poor Mexican-Americans to leave this country.

Thus, a number of drug addicts wind up homeless because that is an intended consequence of the legislation of drug laws. You aren't going to change this by pretending the situation doesn't exist, especially not for the sake trying to save face in front of people who have been taught since birth that "all homeless people are homeless 'cause they're lazy".

If you want to erase the stereotype of the drug-addled homeless, we need to decriminalize drugs and offer treatment to those who are addicted to them.

[Sapphire Blue]

189. YOU listen to bobbolink. Really listen. Don't take offense. Just listen.

[bobbolink]

199. Actually, I did NOTHING of the kind.

I took offense at your words that alcoholism and drug addiction are "CAUSES" of homelessness. I hurled NOTHING at you.

What I'm trying to get people to recognize is that it's time to step away from these labels... from the "causes".

The Cause Of Homelessness Is A Lack Of Homes

PERIOD.

EXCLAMATION!

The Cause Of HOmelessness Is Systemic, NOT Individualistic!

Continuing the focus on this damned crap of "homelessness is caused by ..... alcholism and drug addiction" leads to the very topic of this thread... demanding ALL homeless people be demeaned and insulted.. by drug tests, etc.

BASTA!!

[Sapphire Blue]

162. Correction

"The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems and obscures the real causes of homelessness."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."

[PassingFair]

193. A LARGE percentage of the "employed" people I know...

especially the insured, are on prescription
mood-altering drugs.

Discontent is our natural state. It is
natural and common for people to go to
any length to dispel it.

Alcohol, Prozac, Marijuana.

Why should some be denied succor and
others given room and board and mercy?

[Skrelnick]

195. Good post

Agreed. Prescription drugs are far more dangerous than a joint, but because a doctor pushes them on you, it seems ok.

[PassingFair]

197. I'm not saying that prescription drugs are necessarily dangerous...

just that people want to feel "better".

Always have, always will.

Once you figure out what mortality
entails...well...it's DEPRESSING!

:)

Can't see how Xanax is any better
than THC.....

[mrreowwr_kittty]

17. That's EXACTLY what it does. nt

[cynatnite]

18. They do it for a lot of occupations...

You'd be surprised at how many of them try to sneak in a clean piss test.

[sandnsea]

2. And inadequate treatment

for addiction, alcoholism, and mental illness. Let's not pretend soc/psych problems aren't part of the equation at all.

[Sapphire Blue]

13. Inadequate treatment for addiction, alcoholism, and mental illness are all healthcare issues...

... which we ALL have a right to. And addiction, alcoholism, and mental illness are prevalent throughout ALL of society, regardless of income or housing status.

Let's not stereotype.

[sandnsea]

20. Hey, they ARE homeless and poverty issues too

It isn't stereotyping. As someone who worked in the addiction field for ten years, I've seen the homelessness that results from addiction and the inability to hold a job. You can't separate them. Don't let political correctness kill people.

[Sapphire Blue]

22. Yes, they are for SOME; not for ALL. When you apply it to ALL, you are stereotyping.

Why are you even stressing these issues? The author of the article that I posted didn't deny that drugs, alcohol, and mental illness affect homeless people. This is what she wrote:


"It is true that many of the homeless are alcoholics or drug addicts, but they need a home while they are coping with their problem, and they need treatment programs, and both are in short supply. It is also true that many of the homeless have emotional problems. Who wouldn't have emotional problems if they were homeless? But they need a home while they are coping with their problems and they need support services. Both are in short supply."


I hope that we can agree that these are healthcare issues, and that everyone, regardless of income or housing status, has the right to adequate healthcare. And that we ALL have a right to housing.

[sandnsea]

24. Because you omitted them

I didn't say *all*, why do you say I said that when I didn't?

I simply added to your picture. Homelessness is not just a poverty issue, it is also a lack of behavioral and mental health services. I am just as tired of the mischaracterization of the whole picture as you are.

We're outraged that the VA has stopped diagnosing PTSD because we know it leads to vet's homelessness, but when we talk about homelessness we're not supposed to mention mental illness. It's pure insanity. It doesn't help. Problems are complicated and the entire issue needs to be addressed honestly. When you misrepresent a problem to somebody who knows better, you lose all credibility.

[Sapphire Blue]

29. I omitted what? Please read what I posted again.

Again, this is what the author of the article wrote (and what I posted):

"It is true that many of the homeless are alcoholics or drug addicts, but they need a home while they are coping with their problem, and they need treatment programs, and both are in short supply. It is also true that many of the homeless have emotional problems. Who wouldn't have emotional problems if they were homeless? But they need a home while they are coping with their problems and they need support services. Both are in short supply."

---------------------------------------

Why do I say you said *all* when you didn't? Because you said "You can't separate them.", and that's what it sounded like you meant.

Yes, the entire issue needs to be addressed honestly. Without stereotyping, without blame. But with compassion and dignity.

[sandnsea]

32. "Homelessness is caused by poverty"

You felt it important enough to repeat five times. You appeared to be repudiating the idea that mental illness and addictions are big factors in homelessness, that, rather, they are just stereotypes. The truth is, as it pertains to the article you posted and problems presented, the professionals dealing with homelessness, you can't separate them.

[Sapphire Blue]

37. Yes, it is. And I would repeat it 5 million times if I thought it would get through to someone.

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."



How's this for a start?

[sandnsea]

40. And INADEQUATE TREATMENT

Which I would happily yell a thousand times if it would get through to somebody too.

[Sapphire Blue]

41. Isn't that included in "a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services"

You're welcome to yell with me!

[sandnsea]

45. Not necessarily

I thought it meant energy assistance, food stamps, etc. Your statement says nothing about mental health and social services because your purpose is to pretend one has nothing to do with the other. You have to tell the story of ALL homeless people, and they aren't all dealing with the same problems. Life is complex.

[Sapphire Blue]

46. Why is it so damn important for you to categorize homeless people as drug addicts, alcoholics,

... or mentally ill?

And what about the rest of society? Why don't you talk about people from all walks of life, or are all non-homeless people clean, sober, and mentally fit?

Think about this: You're homeless. (Yes, YOU.) You're told: "Come with me into the bathroom? I want to watch you pee into this paper cup to see if you have been taking drugs." What would your reaction be?

[sandnsea]

48. Because it's at least 42% of the damn problem

See my post below. The truth matters. And I have been homeless, fyi. I don't think ANYBODY should be forced to pee in a cup, unless their job endangers others. But that's got nothing to do with your claim that the only problem is not enough money, unless you include not enough money for TREATMENT in the mix.

[Sapphire Blue]

58. If you've got enough money, you won't be homeless. If you're a drug user, a drinker,

... or have mental health issues, you can have a roof over your head if you have enough money to pay the rent or the mortgage. Period.

[sandnsea]

64. If you have a trust fund

Is that your solution? Addicts and alcoholics eventually lose their jobs, dual diagnosis have it even harder. It is just a reality. It's part of the problem. It doesn't help anybody to deny it. I support Housing First, because it works better. People respond betterr to various treatments if they don't have all the problems of street life too. If interim homeless shelters worked better, I'd support that. There's nothing wrong with having problems. That's the "shame" we should be confronting, not pretending problems don't exist.

[Sapphire Blue]

76. sandnsea, let's get back to the article that I posted.

The author starts out telling about a shelter for homeless FAMILIES. It's not a shelter for drug addicts or drunks. Members of these families have to be drug tested to stay in the shelter.

Now, sandnsea, you said somewhere in this thread that you've been homeless. Did you have to stay in a shelter? Did you have to pee in a cup in front of a shelter worker to stay there? Are YOU a drug user or a drunk or mentally ill? How about proving on a weekly basis that you're not?

Yes, sandnsea, there are homeless people who ARE drug addicts, drunks, or mentally ill, just as there are people from all walks of life who have those same issues. The rich and/or powerful person, though, is not homeless. Look at george w bush.

[bobbolink]

86. I'm very thankful that I don't have to go to you for "help"

You must be a real joy for homeless people to be around.

Some day, you may find yourself looking at these words of yours, and realizing that you are now on the other side of the mirror.

[Riktor]

108. Bullshit

No amount of money will "cure" a mental illness. The recovery rate for Schizophrenics hovers around 50%; meaning, 50% of people diagnosed with Schizophrenia will be able to regain enough mental acuity to provide for themselves. The remaining 50% are fucked. If you're going to be a part of that 50%, you better make sure you have a fat inheritance to sit on, otherwise no amount of cash is going to provide for you the rest of life, especially when you are judged to be mentally incapable of managing your assets.

Of course, this figure doesn't take into account Schizophrenics that never, ever see a mental health professional. People afflicted by this condition do not realize they are exhibiting abnormal behaviors, and it often takes an intervention of some sort to get schizophrenics to go in for treatment.

Next, we have personality disorders. People afflicted by personality disorders have a similarly difficult time holding onto gainful employment as they are typically incapable of working with others.

I could thumb through my copy of the DSM and give you a laundry list of permanently debilitating mental illnesses, but I think it is a waste of our time. The fact of the matter is, around 1% of the American population is so wealthy that if they were to fall victim of a mental or physical illness they could live off their assets until death. Most people NEED to work, for income and health benefits. If a mental or physical disease renders one incapable finding employ, that person is, generally, in deep shit.

[raccoon]

121. Just what are you saying "bullshit" to?

The poster said,

"If you've got enough money, you won't be homeless. If you're a drug user, a drinker,
... or have mental health issues, you can have a roof over your head if you have enough money to pay the rent or the mortgage. Period."

Nowhere did the post say that money will "cure" a mental illness.

[Riktor]

154. The premise

It is statistically unlikely ANYONE would have enough money to fall victim to a permanently debilitating mental illness and still be able to provide for themselves, even if there was a massive redistribution of wealth. Of course, a massive redistribution of wealth isn't a likely event in the near future anyway, so there's no point in pulling out the Che T-Shirts just yet.

My point is, at this stage, the most progressive step we can take to seriously cut down on the number of indigent citizens is to provide adequate and universal health care.

[bobbolink]

85. Why is it so important to categorize? Because it makes them feel safe.

If they can say "All of THEM have these problems, and I don't", then they feel safe that it can never happen to them.

The US and THEM syndrome.

[bobbolink]

95. The ones getting INADEQUATE TREATMENT are those who "help"

with a superior and condescending attitude.

[Rue]

109. Normally, I'd object to the spamming.

But that statement eludes so many people that I'm inclined to applaud you instead.

[bobbolink]

135. Telling the truth isn't "spamming"

It's simply trying to break through willful ignorance.

[Jed Dilligan]

31. I think the real problem is the assumption that

any homeless person who drinks or uses drugs (including marijuana) is homeless because of alcohol or drugs. This allows city officials to claim that almost all homeless people are homeless because they are addicts. The reality is that the vast majority of homeless people who drink and take drugs are homeless for completely different reasons, like physical disability, industry loss, a criminal conviction that makes them unemployable, or problems with red tape in the welfare system.

[sandnsea]

33. If there were adequate treatment for them

then any other issues would be addressed in their treatment plan. Lack of psych/social services is part of the problem too.

[Jed Dilligan]

35. Some people don't want and others don't need treatment

Housing First!

[sandnsea]

39. Housing First includes social services

I support Housing First, but it isn't exclusive of social services where needed. It all goes together.

[Jed Dilligan]

51. The problem is treating everyone as a problem

Social services needs to move to a more asset-based model.

[sandnsea]

52. Well when half your caseload

has a specific problem - why in the world would you pretend they didn't?

[Jed Dilligan]

53. Does your caseload represent all homeless people?

I imagine their profile represents the 30-40% of homeless who actually are candidates for a social service intervention.

[sandnsea]

54. See #38, the study is right there n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

55. Like I said, 30-40%. Plus those are overlapping categories.

Do you think it's a great idea to paint the 60+% of homeless people who are not in these categories as addicts and crazies?

[sandnsea]

57. Who said we should? Not me.

People really need to learn how to hold two thoughts in their heads at once. It is possible to know that poverty causes homelessness AND mental health and addiction causes homelessness - all at the same time. Everything is not black/white, either/or. It really gets annoying around here that people who claim to be smarter than the rest of the country can't handle the truth and nuance of "progressive issues".

[Jed Dilligan]

61. Social services have helmed the homeless elimination program

and that has played right into the hands of developers everywhere. It's time for stakeholders to acknowledge that the majority of homeless people have physical and/or economic, not social, problems. We need more social services, obviously, but there are even more people who don't need social services but do need housing.

[sandnsea]

65. Did you not read the report?

Veterans, addicts, mentally ill, domestic violence. That's the bulk of the homeless on any given night and that's greater than 50%. They are BOTH problems and there isn't anything wrong with addressing BOTH problems. Poverty AND social problems.

[Jed Dilligan]

66. Not in any of the local studies I've worked on.

You do understand these groups overlap, right? That a majority of mentally ill and addicts are dually diagnosed and thus showing up in both columns?

The methodologies used are always questionable, anyway. I've never seen a single study that separated normal drinkers/users from alcoholics/addicts. It works for people who want to increase social services budgets, but not for those PREVALENT homeless people whose problems aren't captured by the social service agenda.

But by all means, keep beating the addiction/insanity drum. Developers will love you for it.

[sandnsea]

67. In the real world that I worked in

It was absolutely true. And if you dig a little further into the chronically unemployed, you find people who were molested, beaten, and otherwise grew up in dysfunctional homes. I do not get the purpose in pretending all these problems don't exist.

[Jed Dilligan]

69. I'm not pretending they don't exist.

I'm also not pretending that they are THE causes of homelessness. Your real world exists through the filter of your experience. Mine does through the filter of mine. My experience is interviewing hundreds of homeless people on the streets over the course of ten years of research. About a third of them have needed the interventions you are involved in. The rest need a place to go and maybe some advice and job training.

[sandnsea]

70. Is 1/3

not a significant number of people who need social services? Even if it is only 1/3, and I know it's not, but pretending it is, why do you want to ignore the problems of all those people to pretend it's just an economic problem?

[Jed Dilligan]

84. I don't want to ignore them

I just want SOME services in place for everyone else.

[bobbolink]

136. "that has played right into the hands of developers everywhere"

EXACTLY!!

"Follow the money"... and privatization has affected EVERYTHING in this country, and that includes poverty and homelessness, along with "mental illness".

Progressives should be able to "follow the money" and realize that the whole "mental illness" game is a great boon to the Pharmcos.

It doesn't take a lot to figure that out.

[Withywindle]

143. I think it's also true that *homelessness* causes addiction and mental health issues.

Look, a ridiculous percentage of Americans have some depression or anxiety-related issues. Many of them can hold it together and hold down a job to varying values of "just barely," because they have things that keep them going - a place to live, family, friends, little pleasures. Now imagine they lose all those things that keep them going--first and foremost, *hope*. Imagine they have no security, no stability, not even physical safety and a place for their stuff. Talk about spiralling downward. And if your only available source of a brief spurt of good feeling is cheap wine, well, who the hell is anyone to judge?

Virtually EVERY form of talk therapy for mental health treatment will advocate the importance of stability, good sleep and diet, people to talk to, staying in touch with things you enjoy. Homeless people DO NOT HAVE THESE SIMPLE BASIC OPTIONS. If you were on the edge or near it, mental-health-wise before, you WILL go over that edge.

The whole "American dream" trip extols the virtues of optimism, extroversion, perseverance, etcetera. It's a real slap in the face to severely depressed people, who can no more "buck up" and force themselves to feel these things than a paralyzed person can dance the foxtrot. We're so addicted to the idea of the Hollywood ending that we blame the victims who don't exhibit "the triumph of the human spirit" to a suitably inspiring degree.

But when your own brain turns against you, where are you even going to start? You're going to start way south of nowhere if you don't even have a place where you can TRY to get a decent night's sleep.

[Jed Dilligan]

148. I think the American Dream is at the root of our depression epidemic.

It is absolutely true that homelessness can cause mental illness.

[Oak2004]

181. I have a question

If I said "African Americans make less money for the same jobs because of racism"

and you piped in

"but some African Americans make less money because they are lazy"

and others said

"don't stereotype"

and you replied

"but it's an uncontestable fact: some African Americans are lazy."


Would you not still, uncontestably, be practicing racial stereotyping (even though, of course, some African Americans are lazy, just like every other category of humanity)?

[bobbolink]

182. Ah, but you see...... prejudice is now frowned on for race, gender, sexual identity, etc.

But it remains perfectly acceptable with poverty.

It's the only part of society that is still seen as "fair game".

:nuke:

[bobbolink]

137. That's exactly what they like to do, and nevermind that it makes the rest of us miserable.

It makes the rest of us AVOID any semblance of "help".

Many of those who are homeless are CHILDREN, yet they don't want to admit to that.

Paint us all as "problems", and the enabling system as "help", and they feel superior.

It's a great game.

[bobbolink]

88. Maybe because your "caseload" is .... "loaded"

Certain populations have a higher percentage.

I think most smart people know that.

Yet, you want to globalize it.

Your words here are a very large reason why so many homeless people refuse to go to a shelter.

I certainly wouldn't want to have to go to you for "help".

[Jed Dilligan]

101. That's one of the biggest problems

Professionals don't see outside of their own experience. Cops think homeless people are always causing problems. Social workers think homeless people are all mentally ill or addicts or both. It's because of the ones they come in contact with--not a truth about the whole population.

The people in charge of surveys and reporting are all too happy to maximize the social problems because it means more funds for their own programs. And you know? There programs do good work and deserve more funding in many if not most cases. However, the unintended consequence is that the public perceives that all homeless people are addicts or mentally ill. This helps real estate interests whip up NIMBY activism whenever a real permanent solution in the form of affordable and/or supportive housing/lodging is proposed.

[bobbolink]

34. According to the National Coalition for the Homeless, there is no more addiction or "mental illness"

in the homeless population, than in the general population.

As a very savvy "help" agency director recently put it, "The difference is in the drug of choice. In the McMansions, the drug is cocaine. For poor folk it's meth and crack. In the McMansions, it's martinis. For poor folk, it's beer."

Yet, so many want to cling to the old stereotypes.

Those stereotypes wouldn't be permitted if it had to do with race, ethnicity or other "groups". Yet, it's still accepted in poverty.

Why is that?

[sandnsea]

38. 42%?

http://www.hudhre.info/documents/2ndHomelessAssessmentReport.pdf

That's what this report says, 17.3% mentally ill, 24.8% chronic substance abuse. Then there's the 12.6% homeless due to domestic violence, which is also a mental health issue, and usually substance abuse too.

It really doesn't help to deny the entirety of the problem.

[Sapphire Blue]

56. Yes, it's easier for so many to cling to the old stereotypes, to blame a victim of circumstances.

And in reality, it's just a different set of circumstances that causes one person to be homeless... and another to live in luxury.

"None so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see." - Mathew Henry

[Jed Dilligan]

62. Sleazy developers, cash-starved city officials, and

well-meaning but unknowingly complicit social service advocates create the problem. We will always have poverty but it doesn't have to manifest itself as the sick spectacle of homelessness that we have grown accustomed to.

[bobbolink]

89. It's easier because it's safer. If they can stereotype, then they know THEY are

different, and therefore, not in danger of every becoming homeless.

"And in reality, it's just a different set of circumstances that causes one person to be homeless... and another to live in luxury."

As a "help" agency director with more heart than this person said to me recently, "The only difference is in the drug of choice. For the person in the McMansion, it's cocaine. For the person who is poor it's crack or meth. For the person in the McMansion it's martinis. For the person who is poor it's beer."

A wise person, and one who loves and cares about people, and knows she is NOT above anyone else.

A big load of difference!

Unfortunately, the "None so blind" are much more common. It's a power thing. :(

[Jed Dilligan]

102. I would add that the social problems did not emerge

all of a sudden in the 80s, but mass homelessness did. The people who beat on these tired explanations are causality-impaired.

[bobbolink]

104. "The people who beat on these tired explanations are causality-impaired."

Absolutely.

But, it's ever so much easier than to actually look at the dysfunctionality of our whole system.

And a lot more satisfying too, to have a whole group of people to look down on.

We 'Murkins have tossed out our humanity.

:(

[caseycoon]

116. It seems to me

that homelessness & poverty could just as easily be the cause of addiction, alcoholism, and mental illness. People are homeless for so many different reasons that I hate to see any of them categorized. They are human beings. Just people who need help, & I believe they should be viewed that way. The bullying & pushing around they receive from many workers who are supposed to be helping them does NOT help. Shelters are not the answer, except as temporary or emergency assistance. Affordable housing is what is desperately needed.

[Jed Dilligan]

142. Yes, but the flipside of affordable housing is

lower property values, and that's unacceptable to officials and citizens drunk on the real estate kool-aid. That's the real problem. The mental health community is unwittingly complicit in the demonizing of homeless people--they maximize the problem to get bigger grants, and the developers sit back in their plush armchairs and grin.

If housing were affordable to everyone, it would be worth less. The only way to end homelessness is to give up our medieval real estate based economy and base wealth on production, not ownership.

[mrcheerful]

3. But thats the conservative way blame the victim and not the cause

doesn't matter if its crime, low wage jobs, homeless, no jobs, all of these social issues are not from outside sources but personal lack of said person making bad "choices" in their lives. Conservatives believe its all the persons choice, crime= he chose to steal that loaf of bread, low wage job=he chose that job, no job=he cose to sit on his sofa instead of looking for a job.

[CC]

12. "low wage jobs, homeless, no jobs, all of these social issues are not from outside sources"

also cause a lot of alcoholism and drug abuse. Some started before being homeless, some after and some escape it but many are trying to escape a life they can't make any better and many that grew up poor also grew up being taught by society they were not worth the air they breathed. They idiot bootstrap repubs only make it worse.

[UNCLE_Rico]

126. This is true about the Cons ... BUT ...

Just because they have that particular viewpoint doesn't mean that we as progressives must therefore ENTIRELY discard the point that they make, and instead choose a similarly delusional 'one size fits all' explanation in the exact opposite direction. To whit, we propose that this problem is all 'society's' or 'the systems' fault, the individual should be absolved of all responsibility, and that the answer lies with government programs.

We ARE smarter than that, I would hope. Homelessness is clearly too complicated an issue, too individualized a problem to speak accurately about by using the either of the common stereotypes.

Thinking entirely from the 'typical right' OR the 'typical left' point of view, neither way, all on it's own is going to solve the problem. Both sides are actually correct ... in SOME CASES ... and wrong in others.

Obviously, our side tends to have a generally more nuanced and compassionate view about the subject in general, so I tend to think we are a lot closer to 'understanding their plight' than your average 'hard-line' conservative.

[Jed Dilligan]

158. The problem is conflating a housing problem with other problems.

It makes it too easy to demonize anyone who can't afford housing that is, frankly, unaffordable. Real estate assholes just LOVE to hear about all the "social problems" leading to homelessness--it helps them two ways. One, it masks the fact that their totally undeserved profit-making is destroying the fabric of American society. Two, it makes it easy to whip up a NIMBY movement anywhere they would rather put another shitty "upscale" development instead of affordable housing.

[Hydra]

4. The poor have rights?

They have no money, thus, no rights.

Too many people are ok with this concept, IMO.

[Mnemosyne]

19. "Beggars can't be choosers."

:grr:

[Chulanowa]

25. Not quite like that - they accept something more subversive

If you accept government help, you "sign away" certain rights, according to these people. They accept this notion as a good idea, that if you take welfare or housing aid, you are now a serf to the state, stripped of certain important rights (the right to vote is a favorite one, but also freedom of association and speech)and beholden to the public's (i.e., the Conservative public's) wishes.

Basically, they expect the homeless and the needy to become "orphans of the state" much as Native Americans were until the 60's.

[Hydra]

27. I can tell you that without being in a homeless shelter

I have problems like this all the time, because people know I can do exactly nothing about it.

Pay to play.

[smokey nj]

6. K&R

[dbackjon]

7. Not sure I get the outrage

Drug testing is routine for many jobs. Verifying that you are the actual person providing the urine sample is also fairly common these days.

[klook]

9. Not sure I get the casual attitude.

What is the point of making all residents of a homeless shelter go through a humiliating ordeal like this week after week, whether or not they exhibit behavior typical of a drug user?

[Sapphire Blue]

15. So go spend a few nights in a shelter. You might get it then.

[tkmorris]

21. That's a pity

The day we started requiring people to prove they were NOT guilty of something, instead of the other way around, was the beginning of the end for an awful lot of individual rights. I said it then and I'm saying it now.

The fact that these people are poor just makes it that much easier to make absurd demands of them without any public outcry.

[bobbolink]

26. You're right--that's a big part of it. The rest is hate for poor folk.

Thank you for speaking up for this... I feel so alone on this most of the time.

[Uncle Joe]

8. I believe with the direction the economy is going, it will become

far more difficult for some to blame it all on mental illness, drugs or alcohol, but I'm sure some will anyway,

It's amazing how much farther advanced and enlightened other nations are than us regarding them considering health care a human right for their citizens.

We on the other hand consider insurance companies as being more important so it's come to the point they've taken over doctor's jobs in approving critical treatment based on nothing but their bottom line.

[Ghost in the Machine]

11. I'd let them go, then piss on their leg... just like I did in the one & only time I was in that

situation... hey, we all gotta humor ourselves somehow, huh?

[nichomachus]

14. Or you could get a Whizzinator

http://www.whizzinator.com/

[Ghost in the Machine]

23. Amazing....

YES, WE SELL DEHYDRATED URINE SEPARATLEY



The vial of dehydrated synthetic urine is enough for a standard urine test. The contents of the vial will reconstitute with 90 cc. of water, the volume required for one test according to standard guidelines. When reconstituting the urine, approximately 90 cc. of tap water is recommended. Actual measurement of the water is not essential because of the normal variation in urine concentration. This is synthetic urine and tests within the normal range for human urine when used as directed. You cannot contract any infectious diseases from this product and it does not test positive for any illegal drugs, metabolites or alcohol. DO NOT open the vial until ready for use. This dehydrated urine will absorb moisture from the air causing the contents to clump and slow the dissolving process when it is. This does not adversely affect the test results. This product is stable for one year in the dry form. This urine has been extensively tested by several laboratories using Ames Multistix, EMIT and gas chromatography methods and full spectrum urinalysis methods.

http://www.whizzinator.com/whiz2.htm

This should be in a thread by itself...

PEACE!

Ghost

[Jed Dilligan]

100. Don't post that anti-semitic crap!

They didn't have a single "cut" model! What are you supposed to do if you bust it out and you're wearing a yarmluke?

:rofl:

[bobbolink]

44. Now, THAT'S the advantage of being male...

:rofl:

[Ghost in the Machine]

68. Well, that's why men are dominant, ya know... we can write our names in the snow..

:rofl:

Just kidding about the 'dominant' thingie...

[bobbolink]

90. I think I can safely say, this is the first time I've entertained the thought that I could possibly

have penis envy.

Pissing on the leg of a power-hungy shelter worker... YUP, that's when it would strike me.

:rofl:

[aquart]

28. Was it the same pervert watching that woman pee every time?

[file83]

113. No, just the same fucking power hungry loser abusing their position by exploiting

those who are desperate.

These fascists should be put up against the wall.

[H2O Man]

30. Nominated.

Beautiful.

[nosmokes]

36. Outrageous! Let's take *every* last shred of dignity from 'em. No addresss

means no humanity, right? Sheesh.

[bobbolink]

42. "No humanity" is what these "experts" are all about. I've seen it so much now, that I'm in a state

of shock.

I used to think that people who run shelters are caring, aware activists..... trying to help people who are down on their luck, and trying to rectify the society.

Well, there are some who are like that.

BUT... there are many more who are little tyrants, and ENJOY being big frogs in little ponds.

Just like a number of cops go into the profession because they like the power, some people go into "social work" for the same reason.

It's not just sad... it's DAMAGING!

[Sapphire Blue]

78. Shelter Workers

Here's more from the article:


Shelter Workers

Some middle class shelter staff has an attitude of "noblesse oblige" reminiscent of 19th century "Charity Ladies." They assume that homeless women need to change, and they have been entrusted with the mission of changing them. Most of the shelter staff that I talked with had a victim-blaming attitude. One shelter director said, "They all come from dysfunctional families, but they are capable of change." One shelter in an affluent community assigns a volunteer "mentor" to each resident. These are upper-middle-class women whose goal is to help the residents change; thereby conveying the message that their mentor assumes something is wrong with them. Some of these women do have valuable things to give the residents, such as help in locating financial aid for college, giving rides to job interviews, caring for their children while the mothers rest or take care of errands, tutoring children or tutoring the mother for a GED, or teaching computer skills. But to call them "mentors" rather than "community resources" implies that they are on a superior plane.

Some shelter workers are genuinely caring. One resident said that the shelter director "is like a grandmother to me." Such workers help women find and use resources and help them with personal problems, and sometimes follow up with them after they leave the shelter. Many shelter residents are grateful for the services offered by the shelters, but they are always aware that the main goal of the shelter is to get them out of there and to get them off welfare.

Even staff members who are aware of the structural problems that the residents face nevertheless consider it their job to enforce the rules. Yet some are flexible in the way they enforce the rules and bend them as much as possible. Some, however, deny that there are major structural reasons for homelessness. When I asked a shelter worker what she thought was the cause of homelessness, she said that some women who refuse to follow rules, such as meeting regularly with the housing search worker, just prefer to be homeless. They like being taken care of in the shelter without any responsibilities, and would rather be homeless than to follow rules.

~ snip ~

Most family shelters are run by nonprofit agencies, and they get much of their funding from the state through the welfare department, as well as from private sources. Churches run many of them. Most are scrambling for money, and are consequently eager to please funders. This often results in "creaming" the population, i.e. accepting people who are most likely to change in desired directions. It also results in adhering to the status quo rather than trying any radical change. Vincent Lyon-Callo tells of organizing the homeless and their allies in western Massachusetts to take over buildings of an abandoned state mental hospital in order to create housing for the homeless. Organizing for the action took place under the auspices of a local shelter for the homeless. Several local politicians were quite upset by this event and attendant media coverage. They reacted by blaming the shelter staff for stirring up trouble and portrayed those involved in the takeover as "outsiders." People connected with the shelter received threats of decreased support and funding for the shelter from local business and political leaders. A few months later the staff learned that funding from the state had been decreased by almost 20 percent for the coming year, and they had to cut staff.

Most significantly, however, was the imposition of awareness among remaining staff that their assigned role was clearly limited to that of reforming homeless people and managing homelessness if they wanted to keep their job. Consequently, most staff members returned to the more familiar roles of treating deviance and surveillance of homeless people.19

http://www.wpunj.edu/~newpol/issue43/BMandell43.htm#n43

[bobbolink]

92. "Most of the shelter staff that I talked with had a victim-blaming attitude."

Sad, indeed, but very, very true.

And that goes for "help" agencies, and all the rest.

It's no wonder that there are those who would rather die than submit themselves to this sanctioned abuse.

Lately, I've found myself thinking of "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest"

Many parallels.

:cry:

As a society, we have truly lost our humanity.

:cry:

[undergroundpanther]

79. too many

fucking authoritarian people in the world.I wish a virus would come that only targeted people who had an authoritarian personality type, a psychopath personality type and severe narcissistic personality type, or combinations of these types and would kill all these pieces of shit in human suits off, forever.They and their bully tactics and posses are the cause of much misery in this world.

These toxic human assholes are the greedy self serving fuckers that like cutting the safety net to shreds for profit and presenting homeless people as degenerates...and like to blame the victim rather than care..

[Wiley50]

43. Just want to say I'm happy you have taken up your mother's work and screen name

It's like she's still here.

I know she's proud of you.

Nominated

[G_j]

47. "The focus on individual problems shifts attention away

from structural problems and obscures the real causes of homelessness. "

the system is a selfish, heartless beast, that is the problem

[bobbolink]

49. "the system is a selfish, heartless beast, that is the problem"

Ah, yes, but... you see, if we actually faced the truth of the matter, we couldn't go around saying that 'Murka is the best, 'Murka is number one.

We have staked so much of our national consciousness on believing that "America is the land of opportunity", that if we were to seriously challenge that, we'd have a collective nervous breakdown.

[G_j]

63. vampires

that is what people like Bob Marley called those at the top of the pyramid. In that vernacular the system may be refered to as Babylon.
I'm not a Rasta, or big on biblical terms, but I agree the system is set up for the "vampires" to prey on the unknowing.
Capitalism is not Democracy. Without advocating any other political system, I can tell you that.
That is why "Babylon" is a heartless beast. Greed and compassion can't exist together.
As the Rastas say, "Babylon Must Fall"
That said, we work with what we got, smart people can work within and use the system for the betterment of everyone.
It is brutal struggle, the deck is stacked, but we can never give up.
rant out..:)

[undergroundpanther]

80. with any system

It is wise to ask WHO benefits from it's beastliness and failure the most?

And I bet it will lead right back to the same sorts of heartless,manipulative,callous and malignant people,the rich, selfish,arrogant bullies.

[blindpig]

50. The poor are allowed neither rights nor dignity

I know someone who stays in such a place, a church sponsored shelter. Besides pissing in a jar he must endure preachifying and provide a certain amount of labor for no pay. Quite a racket, eh?

You lose your dignity along with your possessions, why is that? How is it that property equates dignity? Who can deny that our society is classist? Who benefits?

[depakid]

59. So how much are they paying for testing? And how much food could it otherwise buy?

[Greyhound]

60. The utter indifference is simply infuriating, to me.

To paraphrase M. Moore's book title, "Dude, Where's My Country?"
:kick: & R

[kath]

71. It's OK, because this is The Greatest Country in the World.

"and I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm FUH-REEEEEE"


:barf: :barf: :barf:


that's right, all those other people aren't free at all. Pity the poor Swedes, and Danes, and Norwegians, and Dutch, and French, and Germans, and Brits, and Irish, and Belgians and Canadians, and .... We're the only ones that are free.

[onethatcares]

72. we should test all our elected representatives weekly

let them see how it feels, afterall, we are their employers.

[pamela]

73. K & R

Excellent article.

[AnnieBW]

74. I have to pee in a cup 3X a year

To remain employed by the Federal Government. At the rate Chucklenutz is going, I'm going to NEED drugs to get through his final few months!

[slackmaster]

75. Treating homeless people like they treat job applicants!

:argh:

[undergroundpanther]

83. job applicants weren't always forced to pee on command

People didn't seem to fight when the right to not be forced to pee in a cup was an issue being presented in the courts.
Now it is worse,You have to pass a drug test,take a psychological evaluation and submit to a background check before you can start work.

Tell me what are they scared of?

I wondered why at that time piss testing was being brought to the courts ,and the laws got passed ,how much would people let the workplace run their lives when they are not at work? How much intrusion into privacy by an employer will people tolerate?

If this sort of 'testing' was presented in the 60's, there would have been riots to protest it..But no the erode-rs of our rights, the right wing, chose a time when the people forgot the importance of workers rights and the necessity of defying the intrusive boss who can never have enough power over his employees lives.In this way a boss can "own" your off hours too.
Soon they'll try to control your habits like smoking weight and other things. How much control are people willing to submit to?

http://www.aclu.org/drugpolicy/testing/index.html
http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=4935#urinalysis

[slackmaster]

111. No, they werent. I'm 50, worked since 1980 and had to submit my first piss test in 2004.

Tell me what are they scared of?

From a civil libertarian perspective, the issue is privacy. I feel strongly that what you do on your own time is your own business. Much more insidious, however, is the potential for those tests to reveal things other than your drug habits. Information that could be used to discriminate against you in some way nobody has even thought of yet.

[Dystopian]

82. Thank you. K&R

This issue hits close to home. My friend's calling is working with the homeless here in MA. I work in the trenches with families living in poverty. It's a sad situation. I'm calling him tonight to ask about testing at the shelter where he works. I was unaware.

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."

Keep on keepin' on....

peace~

[kdmorris]

87. I cannot believe how many people think it's fine because others do it for a job

What? Just because it's required somewhere else doesn't make it right. Why are you guys so willing to give up all your rights, to be treated LIKE A SUSPECTED criminal? It's wrong when people have to do it to get a job. I've had to do it for a job and I wasn't stupid enough to refuse, but it's still wrong to treat people like criminals when they have never been convicted of a crime.

But, in this case, you are forcing someone to take a drug test so that they can have shelter from the cold. A basic human righ that should NEVER have conditions. NEVER. I've seen people say (not here(yet), thank goodness)that people should be forced to take drug tests to get food stamps or Medicaid. How can you put conditions on something so basic as food and shelter? How can you place a value on life that way?

How can some of you not get it? Requiring someone to not only take a urine test but to also have someone stand there watching you the whole time is demeaning. That is beyond wrong. Even when I took the drug test as a condition of my employment, there was no one standing in the room with me. I had to leave my purse outside the bathroom, but no one was there.

This is wrong, so very wrong. Live one day in the shoes of someone who is poor and homeless and it will be enough to open your eyes forever. Being poor and homeless in this country (especially if you have children) is the most horrifying, terrifying, degrading thing that could happen to a person. Because when you become poor and homeless, you become a non-person to everyone.

[bobbolink]

93. "Because when you become poor and homeless, you become a non-person to everyone. "

That's it, exactly.

And that attitude is reflected up-thread.

THIS is why some of us REFUSE to have anything to do with these power-hungry, inhuman robots.

[WA98296]

91. Drug Testing in the workplace started this trend, That "cup" was brought to you by Bill Clinton.

[NNN0LHI]

96. I'm afraid your hate is becoming detrimental to your memory

http://www.csosa.gov/policies/DFWP_AppA_EO12564.pdf

Executive Order 12564--Drug-free Federal workplace

Source: The provisions of Executive Order 12564 of Sept. 15, 1986, appear at 51 FR 32889, 3 CFR, 1986
Comp., p. 224, unless otherwise noted.

I, RONALD REAGAN, President of the United States of America, find that:

Drug use is having serious adverse effects upon a significant proportion of the national
work force and results in billions of dollars of lost productivity each year;

The Federal government, as an employer, is concerned with the well-being of its
employees, the successful accomplishment of agency missions, and the need to maintain
employee productivity;

The Federal government, as the largest employer in the Nation, can and should show the
way towards achieving drug-free workplaces through a program designed to offer drug
users a helping hand and, at the same time, demonstrating to drug users and potential drug
users that drugs will not be tolerated in the Federal workplace;

The profits from illegal drugs provide the single greatest source of income for organized
crime, fuel violent street crime, and otherwise contribute to the breakdown of our society;
The use of illegal drugs, on or off duty, by Federal employees is inconsistent not only with
the law-abiding behavior expected of all citizens, but also with the special trust placed in
such employees as servants of the public;

Federal employees who use illegal drugs, on or off duty, tend to be less productive, less
reliable, and prone to greater absenteeism than their fellow employees who do not use
illegal drugs;

The use of illegal drugs, on or off duty, by Federal employees impairs the efficiency of
Federal departments and agencies, undermines public confidence in them, and makes it
more difficult for other employees who do not use illegal drugs to perform their jobs
effectively. The use of illegal drugs, on or off duty, by Federal employees also can pose a
serious health and safety threat to members of the public and to other Federal employees; snip

Sec. 4. Drug Testing Procedures.

(a) Sixty days prior to the implementation of a drug testing program pursuant to this Order,
agencies shall notify employees that testing for use of illegal drugs is to be conducted and
that they may seek counseling and rehabilitation and inform them of the procedures for
obtaining such assistance through the agency's Employee Assistance Program. Agency
drug testing programs already ongoing are exempted from the 60-day notice requirement.

Agencies may take action under section 3(c) of this Order without reference to the 60-day
notice period.

(b) Before conducting a drug test, the agency shall inform the employee to be tested of the
opportunity to submit medical documentation that may support a legitimate use for a
specific drug.

(c) Drug testing programs shall contain procedures for timely submission of requests for
retention of records and specimens; procedures for retesting; and procedures, consistent
with applicable law, to protect the confidentiality of test results and related medical and
rehabilitation records. Procedures for providing urine specimens must allow individual
privacy, unless the agency has reason to believe that a particular individual may alter or
substitute the specimen to be provided.

(d) The Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to promulgate scientific and
technical guidelines for drug testing programs, and agencies shall conduct their drug
testing programs in accordance with these guidelines once promulgated.

[Raster]

98. Drug testing courtesy of Ronnie "let's sell crack to buy weapons for Iran" Raygun

I piss on his grave every night in my dreams. The Great Liar...

[noonwitch]

139. Clinton's fault! Just like Ruby Ridge! (LOL)

I love it when people blame Clinton for things they don't like. NAFTA is on Clinton, drug testing is Reagan's baby, and Ruby Ridge happened on Daddy Bush's watch.

I get the Ruby Ridge thing a lot from conservatives-I usually respond that Clinton must have been such a commanding leader that he was able to order the ATF to invade a compound in Idaho when he was the Governor of Arkansas!

[Bluenorthwest]

94. I love the things you post

That's all. Peace.

[bobbolink]

97. Please help keep them in view by recommending!

Thanks!

:hi:

[scarletwoman]

99. k&r -- Probably the best piece on homelessness I've ever read on DU. Well done!

And thank you.

sw

[varelse]

103. Quoted for truth

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."

Any Douglas Adams fans here? Remember the "S.E.P." field? It could have been invented to explain how the demoralizing, devastating effects of poverty seem to be invisible to all but the poor.


:kick:

[maryf]

105. What pisses me off

more than the drug testing is the watching, I know its been mentioned in this thread but thats what really gets me. Its definitely like a power thing, how demeaning, belittling, shaming, and dehumanizing can it be to have to be watched while you pee in a little cup. Its the ultimate insult, not only does one have to prove their drug free state, but prove that they don't cheat at it either! But mostly its the embarrassment, the thing that nearly everyone wants privacy/modesty for in front of strangers (I guess men may have it a little easier? not sure, but yes, this may be the only thing I have penis envy for, except for like Bobbie says peeing on the evil perpetrators!)

How does one apply for this job: Interviewer for the pee watcher job: do you like to watch people pee? do you like to humiliate people? do you like to have control over people? do you lack certain normal human traits? have you been sniffing around hydrants lately? (oops, sorry, I like dogs more than some people, no offense there) Nuff said? Too bad it even exists to be discussed (disgust).

Oh and:

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."


"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."

[checks-n-balances]

107. K&R

Thanks for bringing this hidden outrage to our attention at DU ~

[wellstone dem]

110. Once again, Blessed are the poor who have a lawyer

Thank you Legal Aid Lawyers for understanding that people who are poor, are first people.

Thank you for posting this.

[bbgrunt]

112. k and r. Drug testing was the first step in

destroying individual rights. We have all been very compliant in building this prison. The drug laws and drug testing have turned us all into suspects where you are guilty until proven innocent.

[aasleka]

114. homelessness is caused by poor choices

Whatever your reason you made poor choices, no education,no role models, no family structure,no job, no skills, etc.. Those are reasons you make poor choices, poor choices lead to poverty.
There is a story out there every day about someone who made it from nothing, it is the American dream, they make good choices. Let's not be the parents of the country and make excuses for our citizens, while we DO NEED social programs to reach out and help people that have been so unfortunate. I firmly believe in a safety net and structure to help those who are on the bottom rungs financially; it does no good to ignore the real problem. Poor choices.

[kdmorris]

115. That is not true

Looks like you've been watching a bit too much Fox News. The people who make it out of poverty are lucky. That's all there is to it. I was once on welfare and food stamps, because my ex-husband refused to pay child support and it is extremely hard to hold down multiple jobs when you have three young children (11 months, 2 and 5 years old). I made it out, but there were literally HUNDREDS of people I knew that were in the same boat as I was that also deserved to make it out, who also worked hard and who didn't.

It's statements like yours that keep the "blame the poor" mentality going and show a gross lack of compassion.

[aasleka]

144. ? I am a single parent didn't get my GED till almost 30 and have been extremely poor

I got there by making bad choices, do I have good reasons, maybe but I still made the decisions, I accept the responsibility. Working full time and being an engineering student is pretty rough but I figure it will only take me 9-10 years to get my degree.

I don't watch Fox news nor do I shop at Walmart, I am for local and liberal! Just because I point out that it is actually people who make bad choices means I am not blaming them, instead I am pointing to the root of the problem. People are responsible for their behavior, we are bound morally to help but we need to be effective. Simply giving away money and food will not solve the problem. Building co-op city's will not solve the problem, education and engagement will solve the problem.

BTW you chose to marry and divorce (i presume), you chose to have children. I did not get child support either and can utterly sympathize with the working multiple jobs. The real change should be to live to work, not work to live.

[kdmorris]

156. I'm sorry, but you really don't sound liberal at all

Yes, pointing out that poverty is "CAUSED" by poor choices means that you are blaming people for being poor. They made the choices (that were presumably bad), therefore they need to be accountable for those choices if it makes them poor. That is kind of the definition of "blaming" someone... the laying of fault or blame at the feet of a person.

"BTW you chose to marry and divorce..." You try to soften that, you try to say "Hey it happened to me, too, and I survived", but it really doesn't soften what you said. You have no idea what choices I made, what choices I was given or what choices were made for me. What I see is that you utterly lack empathy or the ability to think logically about this. Not all poverty is caused by poor choices. I doubt even half of it is. In fact, as you may have been able to tell from the responses you got, poverty leaves you with almost no choices at all.

Sometimes, poverty is caused by disability, a medical situation that has cost a person all that they had. Sometimes, it is caused by a divorce, sometimes it is generational. If I had been given choices, I would have NEVER ended up on welfare. Nobody would choose it if they had ANY choices. It is a brutal existence and it only takes a couple of days to realize that. The "root" of the problem is not bad choices. It is the callous disregard for human life that people like you show.

I can take responsibility for every choice that I made in my life, but at the same time, tell you with complete honesty that my choices didn't lead me to be poor. I could point to a couple of choices that I made that, in hindsight, weren't good. I agree with you that education and engagement might be a good start, but I would submit that it is people like you who need that education and engagement, not the homeless, not the poor who are mired in despair.

You are not me. I'm not going to sit here and, once again, tell my story to someone like you. I've done it before and had it thrown into my face that *I* made good choices or that *I* got out because I worked hard. And I was NOT a harder worker, nor did I make any better choices than the other people who were in my situation. And they got left behind.

You are wrong. Accept it and move on.

[raccoon]

122. What are you doing here on DU? You sound awfully right-wing.

"There is a story out there every day about someone who made it from nothing, "

THere are such stories. For each one who "made it from nothing" we don't hear about the umpteen who didn't due to luck, lack of resources, illness, disability, etc.

[blindpig]

127. What a load of crap

For every one who attains 'the American Dream' a thousand are left in the dust. Many of the hardest working people that I've known have been the least well paid. And their work provided tangible benefit to society, unlike many of the most highly paid, who are nothing more than parasites. This is democracy? This is just? "The American Dream' is a crapshoot used to disguise the hideous injustice of this country. Horatio Alger is dead, in fact, he never lived.

[bobbolink]

138. Is it any wonder I keep trying to focus on the PROBLEMS stemming from "liberals"???

It isn't just the "right wing" that are ignorant.

We have LOTS of educational and awareness work to be done.

:(

:toast:

[aasleka]

145. Actually I agree with you, it is exactly this arguement I use against neo-cons

when they start talking about "fair tax" or no taxes.

Our society is built upon the backs of the poor, the only reason business flourishes at all is because the masses generally obey the laws. Imagine what nightmare we would have if the sewers weren't cleaned and when the poor have had so much they simply would do anything for just one night in a real home with food and a bed.

Social programs are not only a stimulus to the masses but also to provide a net so that our society does not devolve.

[Sapphire Blue]

130. Blaming the Victim

"I AM BEMUSED by announcements that come over the radio from time to time by foundations or institutes saying they are studying the causes of homelessness and seeking cures. In fact, the causes are quite simple and have been studied quite enough. Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."

~ snip ~

"The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems and obscures the real causes of homelessness. It leads to stereotyping of homeless people as deviant and degenerate, drunk or drugged, or crazy."

http://www.wpunj.edu/~newpol/issue43/BMandell43.htm#n43




"The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems and obscures the real causes of homelessness."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."




"The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems and obscures the real causes of homelessness."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."




"The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems and obscures the real causes of homelessness."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."




"The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems and obscures the real causes of homelessness."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."




"The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems and obscures the real causes of homelessness."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."




"The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems and obscures the real causes of homelessness."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."




"The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems and obscures the real causes of homelessness."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."




"The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems and obscures the real causes of homelessness."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."




"The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems and obscures the real causes of homelessness."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."




"The focus on individual problems shifts attention away from structural problems and obscures the real causes of homelessness."

"Homelessness is caused by poverty, insufficient affordable housing and insufficient money to pay for housing, and a weak or nonexistent safety net of income maintenance and support services."

[aasleka]

146. I disagree in a way

If you give ten people a million dollars to spend for the next ten years chances are that one of them will be broke before ten years.

I do agree that affordable GOOD housing should be a priority in this country. The system isn't perfect, but neither are Man's choices.

[nichomachus]

133. That's just idiotic -- it doesn't even make sense

Your education, your role models, your family structure are not things you get to choose.

Everything else flows from that. If you have no family structure, poor early education, an early lack of support, then there is a better than even chance you will end up with insufficient job skills and no job. Some extraordinary people manage to rise above it, but most don't. Once you're in the downward cycle, it just gets worse.

I have nothing but contempt for people who are comfortable, but think it's all due to their own spectacular efforts.

I'm far from rich, but I'm OK, and while I've contributed to my situation, I couldn't have done it without my family, my early teachers, and friends and associates too numerous to mention who helped me along. Without them, I would be living in a box somewhere, no matter what I personally had done.

"Conservatives" need to get over themselves about their own "accomplishments."

[aasleka]

147. I agree, education and engagement, simply throwing money and food at the poor does nothing

[Jed Dilligan]

174. Except for that silly little goal of KEEPING THEM ALIVE.

Asshole.

[Jed Dilligan]

149. Fuck you.

[bobbolink]

150. .

:applause:

Sometimes the willfull ignorance is just too intolerable.

Especially when it's promoted by a "progressive".

:puke:

[aasleka]

155. i like orange skittles; what kind do you like?

[Jed Dilligan]

157. The kind without right wing talking points.

You deserve to be homeless for your attitudes. That would be poetic justice.

[NNN0LHI]

173. I think you may be on to something

[lildreamer316]

161. My husband has a degree from college

and was homeless several times in his life.
He is one of the most intelligent and hardworking people I've ever met.
He supports me and our son. I don't work.
His 'choice' was to walk away from serious abuse. Then his other parent died, and he was left homeless.


NOW what???
Come on with it.

[RadiationTherapy]

184. Booooorrrrrrinnnng ... Yawwwwwn. nt

[bobbolink]

200. It's not boring... it's HATEFUL!

The same as racism, sexism, homophobia are not boring.. they are HATE, pure and simple.

[RadiationTherapy]

201. I am bored of these tired thoughts....not yours, I mean. nt

[caseycoon]

117. K&R A much needed post!

I'm glad to see you here posting.
This really needs to be brought out again & again!
:)

[Echo In Light]

118. K&R - maybe the homeless should demand shelter workers take Authoritarian Personality "F scale" test

http://www.anesi.com/fscale.htm

[JeanGrey]

125. Gee I took the test and got a three. And I disagree with

some of what is being said. I DO believe that bad choices can cause homelessness. Not always but in some cases. Go figure.

[Echo In Light]

128. Less than 2 for me, and I see a rigged system as having a greater impact than "poor choices,"....

...which often stem from corporate culture indoctrination, or manifest as an inevitable result of it.

[Jed Dilligan]

151. Last I checked, Bush has two houses.

Next?

[MADem]

119. That happens in the military all the time. Every day.

They haven't done anything either, for the most part, but they test thousands to catch a few.

[nolabels]

123. Homeless people are part of the new enemy

We are now turning on ourselves because it's cheaper and faster than going overseas to look for enemies. Those who feel a need to hold on to power are getting more grippe by the moment

[bobbolink]

168. Yes, we poor folk are enemies to the state, and to the DEMS and liberals themselves.

But, I wouldn't call it "new".

A good friend of mine has been going back and researching the history of poverty in the US. It has ALWAYS been the case, since the time of the pilgrims, of blaming poor people themselves for imagined individual sins.

This has ALWAYS been the case, and continues with liberals.

WHEN are we going to be ready to STOP it all, look honestly at ourselves and this nation, and deal with all the pain we have caused?

WHEN are we going to be willing to drop all the pretense, and this includes "liberals" and "progressives", and be HONEST?

WHEN are DUers going to be willing to look HONESTLY at poor people in our midst, and be ready to hear their pain, rather than angrily defending their judgmental positions?

WHEN?

How many more must suffer?

[nolabels]

170. The establishment has determined that it needs all the gradation's it can muster

The ownership society manufactures greed then preys on those with and without. Our civilization is centered on possessions rather than it's individuals being able to live a decent life. None of us invented it but we do have the keys to push it into the history bin.

Sorry don't have much time to reply, got that obligation of going to work now to help put food on the table and pay the bills :hi:

[Romulox]

124. You're not going to find many who get outraged that the homeless are subjected to

procedures that most of us have to submit to in our every day lives.

If peeing in a cup is bad, it is bad for everyone. Similarly if it is OK for me to be forced to pee in a cup...

[Sapphire Blue]

129. In your everyday life, are you subjected to peeing in a cup in front of...

... some stranger before you can go into your home and go to bed?

Have you ever stayed at a hotel, and had some hotel staff person taken you to the restroom, saying: "I want to watch you pee into this paper cup to see if you have been taking drugs." And if you don't comply, you don't get the room. Is that okay?

If I don't find many who get outraged that homeless people are subjected to such demeaning and ILLEGAL procedures, that reflects poorly on those who are not outraged.

[bobbolink]

140. .

:applause:

How far we have fallen, when basic human rights are an object of derision by "liberals".

:cry:

[Sapphire Blue]

164. .

Sometimes people like to pretend to be what they aren't, they like to pretend to be what they WISH that they were. My mom used to say "A person can put on a crown, but that doesn't make them royalty; it DOES make them a phony, though." I agree.

[bobbolink]

169. Your mother was a wise person. A crown doesn't a royal make, indeed!

This is why I bristle so much about whole "mental illness" crap.

The one thing that both Republicans and Democrats have in common is that NEITHER wants to look at their shadow side. They BOTH want to put on that crown, and pretend to be so royal. It would be fine if it were to be expected from the RW, but the left wing would take a close look at themselves.... be willing to look deeper.

BUT.... its the same process that they do.

It's true of ALL of us.

We ALL want to hide from our shadow.

And successfully doing so is "MENTAL ILLNESS". Yet, we don't want to really look at that... we want to point fingers and blame the "other".

Quote: "A person can put on a crown, but that doesn't make them royalty; it DOES make them a phony, though." I agree.

Excellently said.

:applause:

[moondust]

131. "Okay but you'll have to hold the cup."

:evilgrin:

[bobbolink]

141. .

:rofl:

[jeff30997]

132. It should be illegal for employers too.

WTF? That's crazy! What's next? DNA screening? Oops sorry but the tests results show that you have

10.7% chances of being sick in the next 40 years.We can't afford that.Flush!

[lildreamer316]

160. It also stems from a basic misunderstanding of how people work and learn.

Humans are not cookie-cutter copies of each other. The way I learn is totally different from the way my mother and father learned. It doesn't make me dis-abled, differently-abled, or any of those other terms.

It simply makes me human.

When we recognize that we can't train every single person the same way, and cannot educate them the same way...when we learn basic respect for the person they are instead of the person we want them to be, then we can build a supportive and educative system that will allow them to function in society, as well as changing that very society so as to be able to utilize each person's unique strengths.

Then they will have a place in the world. A job. A calling. A life.

No need to feel shitty about themselves. No need to be fired for not being able to hold down a job, starting a vicious cycle that oftentimes cannot be broken.

Yes, the saftey net is where we need to start too...you gotta start from both ends, at the moment. But if we want to stop it for all time, we need to recognize the roots, the very deep roots, of the problem.

Of course I've not even touched upon the issues of family cycles of abuse and neglect, etc. But I still think it all ties in together. The two-pronged approach of a support system plus a new way of starting people out is the best solution. Just MHO, of course.

[bobbolink]

167. "we need to recognize the roots, the very deep roots, of the problem."

That's called being a "radical".

"Radical" comes from the word radix, which means "root".

YES, we definitely need to get to the ROOT of the issue, rather than to keep promoting myths.

As a matter of fact, President John F. Kennedy said something to that effect:
"The great enemy of the Truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived and dishonest--but the myth--persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
From his 1962 commencement address at Yale University.

When we look at who people really ARE, when we accept OUR emotions and deal with them honestly, when we accept the emotions of OTHERS and deal with them honestly, then we will start to promote PEACE.

As long as we continue with the myths of "rugged individualism" and "America, the Great Land Of Opportunity" we will keep creating tragedies. Human tragedies.

[otherlander]

166. What the fucking hell!

:grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr:

This is NOT how you help people! IF you happen to be more fortunate than another person and in a position where you THINK you might be able to help them, you don't impose your wishes on them! That's not help, it's PATERNALISM. As wealth increases, relevance to the people's struggle for freedom and dignity decreases. If you HAVE these resources and want to use them to help people, you tell others what you are able to do to help them, ask them what they WANT you to do to help them, and follow along to the degree that you are willing to defer to their wishes. When their wishes go beyond what you are willing to do, you don't have to do it, and likewise, you don't have the RIGHT to impose yourself on them. You fucking LISTEN, and you pray that maybe, MAYBE someone will decide that your non-paternalistic attitudes make you actually RELEVANT enough to help them.

:rant:

[bobbolink]

171. Thank you for your outrage. It means so much to me to know that there is at least ONE

person who sees the horrendous inhumanity in all this shit!

:applause:

:hug:

[maryf]

172. and is not afraid to express that indignation!

Another way the less fortunate are kept down is by not allowing them to be angry or indignent!!" Oh the ingratitude! when we are just trying to help!!" Scream about this, it deserves it. I was so glad to see this thread still going, an indication of some awakening going on! If someone tried to make me pee in front of them, it might end up in their face. There is a time for rage, this is one of them...

[bobbolink]

176. "If someone tried to make me pee in front of them, it might end up in their face. "

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You're great, Miss Mary!!

:hug: :loveya: :hug:

[maryf]

177. right back atya!

:pals: Not the pee! the hugs!! :yourock:

[bobbolink]

179. I'm so very glad you qualified that statement. ^_^

ALL of this outrage has some of us so upset we're ready to spit nails!

HOW to restore some sanity in all this???

Where to even try to begin?

How did we get to be a nation where all of this is accepted as "normal", and there is no outrage???

I think I need a :toast:

Then I could be accused of being an alkie homeless person, eh?

:crazy:

[maryf]

180. Not in my book! just a person!

and I'd join you in that drink, but I wouldn't remember a thing! I'll join you in the nail spitting though, its a very "normal" human reaction to the injustice and indignity discussed here!

[otherlander]

175. Hugs to you too

:hug:

I think your friend Two Americas has me on ignore, though.
:hide:

[maryf]

178. I happen to know

TA's on the road...

[lib2DaBone]

190. HUH?

NT

[Sapphire Blue]

192. "You fucking LISTEN"

We're so busy trying to prove our point, prove we're right, prove the other person is wrong (or just not getting it) that we can't seem to take even a minute to actually LISTEN to what the other person is saying. If we did, we might actually come to some sort of agreement... and arrive at solutions to whatever we're busy arguing about.

[otherlander]

194. Ok

I'm agreeing with you, though...

[maryf]

196. Yes!

So many people spend so much time thinking about what they can say in response to a post that will reflect well on them, or make them look smart, smart ass, funny, or sensitive that they really don't truly "listen" or read what is being said. People also, including me, go off on tangents losing the original point. This thread you introduced makes such an important point regarding the indignities foisted on the less fortunate under the guise of helping, that it should be causing everyone to read it to scream "What the fuck are we doing to these people? They are human beings and but for the grace of God, chance, karma, roll of the dice, what have you, goes I." But instead some of us will spew about a disconnected point which causes some of us to lose the main idea. And I do hope some here will note the use of "us". We are all in this folks, to turn away from this will leave you ill-prepared for what is to come...again "what you do to the least of my brethern..."

How any of us can tolerate this mistreatment is beyond me. I would suggest all to reread many of the points here that stick to the subject. Thank you Sapphire Blue for this thread, hopefully it gets some blood flowing in some brains...In Peace and Justice, Mary

[bobbolink]

198. "How any of us can tolerate this mistreatment is beyond me. "

EXACTLY!!

And that is exactly the point.

WE

are tolerating it.

WE

are grumbling among ourselves, happily blaming "the repugs", yet what are we

DOING

about it????

Why do stories like this lead to disagreements among ourselves, rather than outrage at the injustice, and immediate forming of action groups to formulate a way to combat this outrage?

Thank you, Mary, for bringing to this to exactly where it needs to be... OUR RESPONSIBILTY FOR TAKING ACTION!

:hug: :yourock: :hug:

[Sapphire Blue]

202. "us"

When are we going to realize it IS "us", that we are all in it together? Why do some people feel so superior because of their status in life? Status can change in the blink of an eye. And it does. It's time to listen to those of "us" who are trying to teach the rest of "us". We ALL have something to learn.


Indigo Blue (Sapphire Blue's daughter)

[bobbolink]

203. "When are we going to realize it IS "us", that we are all in it together? "

When we realize that "RUGGED INDIVIDUALISM" is a LIE.

When we realize that "THE AMERICAN DREAM" is a LIE.

When we realize that "THE GREAT LAND OF OPPORTUNITY" is a LIE.