AGAINST SCHOOL - How public education cripples our kids, and why

[BanzaiBonnie]

"Our schools are ... factories in which the raw products (children) are to be shaped and fashioned .... And it is the business of the school to build its pupils according to the specifications laid down."

You can find Gatto's book, The Underground History of American Education ; A Schoolteacher's Intimate Investigation Into The Problem Of Modern Schooling on line at http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm

Mass schooling of a compulsory nature really got its teeth into the United States between 1905 and 1915, though it was conceived of much earlier and pushed for throughout most of the nineteenth century. The reason given for this enormous upheaval of family life and cultural traditions was, roughly speaking, threefold:

1) To make good people. 2) To make good citizens. 3) To make each person his or her personal best. These goals are still trotted out today on a regular basis, and most of us accept them in one form or another as a decent definition of public education's mission, however short schools actually fall in achieving them. But we are dead wrong. Compounding our error is the fact that the national literature holds numerous and surprisingly consistent statements of compulsory schooling's true purpose. We have, for example, the great H. L. Mencken, who wrote in The American Mercury for April 1924 that

"the aim of public education is not to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence. ... Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim ... is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States... and that is its aim everywhere else."

<snip>

There were vast fortunes to be made, after all, in an economy based on mass production and organized to favor the large corporation rather than the small business or the family farm. But mass production required mass consumption, and at the turn of the twentieth century most Americans considered it both unnatural and unwise to buy things they didn't actually need. Mandatory schooling was a godsend on that count. School didn't have to train kids in any direct sense to think they should consume nonstop, because it did something even better: it encouraged them not to think at all. And that left them sitting ducks for another great invention of the modem era - marketing.

Now, you needn't have studied marketing to know that there are two groups of people who can always be convinced to consume more than they need to: addicts and children. School has done a pretty good job of turning our children into addicts, but it has done a spectacular job of turning our children into children. Again, this is no accident. Theorists from Plato to Rousseau to our own Dr. Inglis knew that if children could be cloistered with other children, stripped of responsibility and independence, encouraged to develop only the trivializing emotions of greed, envy, jealousy, and fear, they would grow older but never truly grow up. In the 1934 edition of his once well-known book 'Public Education in the United States', Ellwood P. Cubberley detailed and praised the way the strategy of successive school enlargements had extended childhood by two to six years, and forced schooling was at that point still quite new. This same Cubberley - who was dean of Stanford's School of Education, a textbook editor at Houghton Mifflin, and Conant's friend and correspondent at Harvard - had written the following in the 1922 edition of his book Public School Administration: "Our schools are ... factories in which the raw products (children) are to be shaped and fashioned .... And it is the business of the school to build its pupils according to the specifications laid down."

[loveable liberal]

1. So what is the answer?

Often I find that public school critics leave out the most important aspect of education, public or otherwise: parents. It is a mistake to believe that schools themselves will develop a childs curiosity (the cornerstone of learning). Parents have to be involved in their childs education.

We must face that our society is based on consumerism for the most part. There is no room for community or even the family for that matter. Politicians on both sides of the aisle have failed us in these matters.

Lastly, Mencken seems like a crabby bastard.

[patrice]

4. John Dewey + Paolo Freire

Though I object to the use of the word "dimmer" as much as I object to the word "gifted" http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3255662&mesg_id=3255662

My brainstorming post in the above referenced thread:

Smaller classes.

Year 'round school.

Attendance not required; teach those who show up and WANT to learn; let the others go until they decide to return and when they do return, have the courses, a la cart, that they need/want, at the times they need them to be.

School from 8a to 8p, 6 days a week, with scheduling options.

Authentic assessment grounded in performanced based criteria and Dewey-ian student-centered models.

Vocational tracking for those who want it, including internships and professional guild-memberships.

Open discourse on all aspects of curriculum, standards, and GRADING for all responsible participants and all participants will be accountable for their appropriate responsibilities.

Allow teachers to take partial contracts

NO teaching outside your certifications!

All student organizations and events will integrate their activities with appropriate curriculum.

More "Advance Placement"

More Trades and Crafts

P.S. And OH YEAH, perhaps most important of all . . . aside from Physical Education, Sports outside of Public Education and available through private subscription organizations - OFF OF SCHOOL TIME.

[elizfeelinggreat]

7. I like those

have you heard about MIT's Opensourcework project? (I think that's what it's called)

[patrice]

11. Have not. I'm in professional education for Elder Care now, so it might be something

I'm interested in.

BTW: I'm having trouble pulling a Dewey title out of my brain just this moment. But the Freire-ian work that really inspired me (and which BTBTW parallels Dean's 50 state strategy) is Pedagogy of the Oppressed = the pedagogical rationale for completely organic, free standing , Grassroots, self/community-discovery/study groups, which I see as part of the kinds of things that Dewey was proposing within Public Education.

[elizfeelinggreat]

13. here is a link

it's actually called Opencourseware.

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm



Thanks, I'll look into Pedagogy of the Oppressed (I found some chapters online for that, also!)

[patrice]

16. Thanks for the link!! I will send it to my work email and look at it later.

The heart of Pedagogy of the Oppressed is Freire's explanation of how learning is handicapped by the fact that individuals internalize and come to identify with that which oppresses them. It's a systemic "learned helplessness" that leads to identification with values that are not authentic to the individual and it applies to the whole Culture, so the first step is to develop the individual praxis that makes one's Self aware of cultural oppression, then the groups coalesce around what these individuals are discovering about what they share in that discovery.

Thanks again for the link!

:hi:

[ProfessorGAC]

14. "No Teaching Outside Your Certification"

Could you amplify? In my wife's experience, she would suggest there are already too many certifications and the system has become overly specialized.

Wonder exactly how you meant your statement.
The Professor

[electropop]

15. As the child of two librul educators, I like your ideas.

I would add training in critical thinking techniques. Some of my teachers slipped that in and I am eternally grateful.

[patrice]

17. Absolutely! I will be forever indebted to Debate classes I started taking

my Sophmore year in a Catholic Highschool where they had such things.

[Trillo]

27. Some quotes of Dewey's

That image is similar to that held by the founders of the Progressive education movement and their inspiration, the pragmatist philosopher John Dewey. As a pragmatist, Dewey believed that there were no fixed principles that transcended social contexts and that therefore one should adopt ideas and values that "work" in the situation at hand. His politics were collectivist, and that was reflected in his approach to education, which he saw as fundamental to social reform. As Dewey wrote, "A society is a number of people held together because they are working along common lines, in a common spirit, and with references to common ends." That, of course, was not the notion of society distinctive to America's revolutionary heritage; the American idea of society entailed a group of people who as individuals freely chose and pursued their own ends within a rule of law. Joel Spring points out that Dewey was one of the thinkers who provided the theoretical framework for the shift in education from individual to group work. As he wrote, "I believe that ... education is a regulation of the process of coming to share in the social consciousness; and that the adjustment of individual activity on the basis of this social consciousness is the only sure method of social reconstruction." The school was to be anointed to prepare children for progressive society, which for Dewey meant a group orientation rather than an emphasis on the individual's intellectual development. He also wrote, "The social organism through the school, as its organ, may determine ethical results.... Through education society can formulate its own purposes, can organize its own means and resources, and thus shape itself with definiteness and economy in the direction in which it wishes to move."

Dewey's views converged to create a bias against abstract learning and individualism. "The mere absorbing of facts and truths is so exclusively individual an affair that it tends very naturally to pass into selfishness. There is no obvious social motive for the acquirement of mere learning, there is no clear social gain in success thereat." For the pragmatists, individual liberty, free economic competition, and limited government were obsolete and inappropriate principles in the prevailing social conditions. Unfortunately, most people, particularly parents, did not understand that truth. The schools would have to play the major role in preparing future citizens for the new society. For Dewey, the mission was sacred: "The teacher always is the prophet of the true God and the usherer-in of the true Kingdom of God."

http://www.sntp.net/education/school_state_3.htm

Judging from the excerpted text, Dewey represented a move away from individual students learning facts, and toward social and hence political correctness, away from personal empowerment through education, and toward collective empowerment (such as found in corporations?). Curiously, when taken to extremes such as corporatism, it is found the collective has no selfless consciousness beyond profit. I'd venture a guess that Dewey, while hailed as a great one, was a mere mortal that made mistakes just like the rest of us. Perhaps he should be taken off the ivory pedestal.

[Jed Dilligan]

35. I don't think the voluntary structure works for young kids

There are skills they need to acquire while their brains are developing. They will be stunted forever if they put it off.

[cherokeeprogressive]

99. Wow. I didn't read the word PARENTS anywhere in your list of fixes... n/t

[Freda People]

120. We parents share responsibility for sure!

Amen--and I must say, parents take their cues from teachers, from the years of hearing from the system about what childhood 'development' should look like. Yet CHILDHOOD IS VIRTUALLY IRRELEVANT IN EDUCATION and certainly in our marketing-filled culture - so it's natural for parents to be numb also to CHILDREN"S needs I believe...it's a circle...

I think we need to wake up to our societal rush out of childhood...

...We parents can definitely help develop a strong and grounded democratic citizenry too, by NOTICING that we can:

- avoid taking younger children to big PG-13/R rated movies for our convenience--overwhelming their sensory and emotional systems
- avoid letting our elementary grades children sit at computers/hand held electronics and stare into oblivion
- notice we think if it's a cartoon it must be for children....
- let children engage in free physical and pretend play--no electronics, and less organized/coached sports: The Value of A Skinned Knee is a great book.
- encourage social skill and reasoning ability by having regular conversations at the supper table or by playing games together as a family.
- turn off the electronics! and give the kids a big card board box, string etc
- encourage being in silence periodically
- help children know that there are not just right/wrong answers for tests--we want children to remain fiercely NOT afraid to make mistakes
- get comfortable with the fact that parents are in charge, and indeed DO make the rules....children thrive with clear boundaries. They can relax within them....

Remembering to Keep Childhood Alive--it's not just for fun. The STAGE of Childhood is required for full competence as a uniquely talented, brave and contributing world citizen. In these critical mass times, don't we need our youth to grow into all the creativity and innovative capacities?!

Dang!! Thanks for listening ~

[Freda People]

127. along with authentic assessment

Teacher training in childhood development, particularly per my personal bent, a la Rudolf Steiner. Childhood stages of maturation differ at every age and we know, even between children of the same age. Teachers generally know little about these, or have forgotten because of mandates to cover CONTENT--push the content.

For example, education asks children to make inferences and draw conclusions about written material WAY too early--we make children learn to read/write and do small scale visual/fine motor work before their sensory systems/brain development's ready. Behavior problems in the youngest grades is on the rise. How children/families spend free time are responsible too, but children spend 6-8 hours on a school campus.

KEEP CHILDHOOD in Education--let children mature at NATURE'S PACE not that of the tests.

Physical and pretend play/imagination are primary foundations for all forms of Literacy. How many courses on childhood development are required for teachers (1?)--and still the limited exposure is not focused on the brain-body connection.

Teachers and parents need to let children remain in their bodies longer--now we are raising little "knowledge heads". See (just Google it. There'll be 800,000 good hits) SIR KEN ROBINSON's TEDTalks. "ARE SCHOOLS KILLING CREATIVITY" The best 20 minutes on remembering the ROLE OF CHILDHOOD in today's world...

[elizfeelinggreat]

5. these are excerpts

these are excerpts from Gatto's Dumbing Us Down:

"None of this is inevitable. None of it is impossible to overthrow. We do have choices in how we bring up young people; there is no one right way. If we broke through the power of the pyramidical illusion we would see that. There is no life-and-death international competition threatening our national existence, difficult as that idea is even to think about, let alone believe, in the face of a continual media barrage of myth to the contrary. In every important material respect our nation is self-sufficient, including in energy. I realize that idea runs counter to the most fashionable thinking of political economists, but the "profound transformation" of our economy these people talk about is neither inevitable nor irreversible. Global economics does not speak to the public need for meaningful work, affordable housing, fulfilling education, adequate medical care, a clean environment, honest and accountable government, social and cultural renewal, or simple justice. All global ambitions are based on a definition of productivity and the good life so alienated from common human reality I am convinced it is wrong and that most people would agree with me if they could perceive an alternative. We might be able to see that if we regained a hold on a philosophy that locates meaning where meaning is genuinely to be found -- in families, in friends, in the passage of seasons, in nature, in simple ceremonies and rituals, in curiosity, generosity, compassion, and service to others, in a decent independence and privacy, in all the free and inexpensive things out of which real families, real friends and real communities are built -- then we would be so self-sufficient we would not even need the material "sufficiency" which our global "experts" are so insistent we be concerned about."
<>
"Some form of free-market system in public schooling is the likeliest place to look for answers, a free market where family schools and small entrepreneurial schools and religious schools and crafts schools and farm schools exist in profusion to compete with government education. I'm trying to describe a free market in schooling just exactly like the one the country had until the Civil War, one in which students volunteer for the kind of education that suits them, even if that means self-education; it didn't hurt Benjamin Franklin that I can see. These options exist now in miniature, wonderful survivals of a strong and vigorous past, but they are available only to the resourceful, the courageous, the lucky, or the rich. The near impossibility of one of these better roads opening for the shattered families of the poor or for the bewildered host camped on the fringes of the urban middle class suggests that the disaster of seven-lesson schools is going to grow unless we do something bold and decisive with the mess of government monopoly schooling."


And to add to your criticism of politicians, I would say the press has ignored these problems also. They focus on school shootings or other inane matters and don't address what's necessary to help children grow intellectually (and in the end a person's and country's well being).

[BanzaiBonnie]

6. Teachers and those who wanted real reform of the "factory model"

of education, were beginning to get what they wanted with moving away from the heavy handed testing by using documentation of individual accomplishments. This groundswell for real learning and not just spewing forth regurgitated facts was quashed by "No child Left Behind".

There is no easy solution, but beginning in the late '70s, and through the 80's and 90s, those wonderful, idealistic people who want children to shine, were beginning to make progress toward individual enrichment and a way of showcasing what students had actually accomplished in their lives. And it included input from the students themselves.


And nice touch by calling one of the cited works as being by "a crabby bastard" Whenever making an argument about a subject, always start by name-calling. That's the way to further a discussion; hit and run.

[izquierdista]

10. Mencken would be smiling

If he heard the poster call him a crabby bastard. He worked hard to hone that image, who are you to soften the edge?

[loveable liberal]

20. why dont you lighten up.

I first became familiar with Mencken in book called "The Portable Curmudgeon". I dont think he would view it as a slight. But thanks for bringing hypersensitivity and passive aggression to the conversation (and yes, I'm aware of the irony).

Have a great day!

[pnwmom]

84. For one thing, we should end the crazy obsession with testing.

That is within the voters' control. We can vote out the school districts and the school superintendents who push this -- and we can insist that NCLB be overhauled or tossed out.

Over the course of 15 years, I watched a perfectly good school district being taken over by an obsession with test taking. I had to say goodbye to the best, most experienced teachers who decided to retire early rather than to put up with the nonsense anymore.

The elementary school that my older two had attended had become a factory by the time their brother came along. And the children were the parts. That was it for me. I put my youngest in private school for the 6th grade, where they treat him like a human being.

Who benefits from the test taking mania? The same groups who benefit from randomized drug tests in schools and elsewhere.

The for-profit test companies.

[fed_up_mother]

2. And we've all been so brainwashed

that most people think that the behavior that results from the mass herding of children - bullying, exclusion from the group, etc. - is part of the normal, growing up process for children, and any adult who objects is a "helicopter" parent.

[elizfeelinggreat]

3. Most of our schools

are in dire need of change. I've read Gatto and agree with him on many things.

I do believe most people want schools to have a positive impact on children and would not begrudge the taxes to make that happen. Most teachers deserve so much more than they are given - the administrators and those up the highly bloated educational industry line? Not so much. Politically enabled greed is so easy and rampant. :(

[Echo In Light]

8. "Education is a system of imposed ignorance. It is a system of indoctrination....

...It is a system which drives out of you a lot of the capacity to understand things.”

~ Chomsky

[LWolf]

9. Simple response from this educator:

As someone who has worked for change in public education my entire adult life, I'm standing ready, and have been for 25 years, to move our public school system away from the factory model.

Most educators that I've worked with over that time would agree.

Who creates the system, and maintains the system? The politicians. The politicians that you've voted for.

It's another election year, and, again, the condition of public education takes a back seat to bigger, hot-button issues.

Why? The politicians themselves, and the media, aren't going to make education a top issue. It produces a huge pool of cheap labor and cannon fodder.

Nobody wants to bring this obvious truth up for discussion: to move away from the factory model, to a structure that would nurture intellectual and academic success for the non-elite, our government would have to commit to massive, long-term investment in communities, to start with, to increase the quality of life for ALL, not just those who can pay for it, and in the public education system itself, to build many more schools, hire many more teachers, setting up the environment that research tells us best supports learning. Not only that, but the political tools currently used to ensure that large pool of cheap labor and cannon fodder, to ensure that schools will remain scapegoats, like NCLB, for example, would have to be repealed. Accountability would have to mean being accountable for providing rich and abundant opportunities to learn.

I agree with much of what Gatto has to say.

Until a significant majority of American voters care to make excellent public education for all a priority, I don't see anything changing. Your thread title certainly feeds the flames of anti-education sentiment.

The day voters decide to wrest public education away from politicians and give it back to educators and communities, you might see some positive change.

[elizfeelinggreat]

12. I often wonder

if it would really be so expensive. What if at the same time we axed many nonessential administrative jobs or political payoffs and replaced them with more meaningful resources?

[LWolf]

30. I won't pretend that it wouldn't be costly.

I just think it's worth the cost.

[elizfeelinggreat]

31. I agree but

why pay more when we can get rid of the junk and replace it with value?

[LWolf]

91. Getting rid of some of the bureaucracy is great.

It won't pay for it all. To do just one single thing to make a big difference, to reduce class size to what research says is the ideal, you'd have to more than double the number of school buildings and teachers in the nation. That's a MASSIVE amount of money.

[BigDaddy44]

19. Okay, I'll bite

"the day voters decide to wrest public education away from politicians and give it back to educators and communities"

what you're talking about is local control

if we have local control, why do we need a Department of Education?

Am I reading this right?

[LWolf]

29. No.

Abolishing the dept of ed is a rw goal. While I fully support certain kinds of local control, I don't advocate doing away with all oversight.

I see it like this: the federal government should be supporting, not mandating, with a few areas of control. Here's what I'd like to see the feds in charge of:

A broad, general, curriculum framework designed at the state level, with consensus from all.

One national certification/teaching license, doing away with a different license, often with different requirements, in every state.

100% funding for special ed.

Funding for before and after school programs and support staff like full time counselors, librarians, PE teachers, art and music teachers, at every school.

Along with the librarians, I'd like to see a federal mandate, and funding, for a superb REAL library in every school in the nation. Fully funded summer school. Possibly funding for a real nurse, and health clinics, too.

In other words, a general framework that leaves most specifics up to states, and pays for vital support services that are often the first to be cut in hard times.

Not a department that polices public ed, or that mandates policies designed to benefit corporate donors, but that supports public ed.

At the state level, I'd like to see a building fund that built schools in any area that needed a school without passing local property tax bonds. I'd like to see legal limits on school and class size, fully funded. General funding that is not based on ADA, but instead is guaranteed. A more fleshed out version of the federal curriculum framework, custom to the state. A broader selection of approved textbooks and materials for adoption. Guaranteed equal funding to all districts, regardless of the tax base.


I could go on for another couple of hours, but this is a good start.

Notice I didn't say anything at all about standardized tests.

If you want to see how effective any particular school or district is, first make sure that the community has a full range of support: health care, affordable housing, employment, a living wage, child care, universal pre-school, and a safe, clean, and healthy environment.

Then check things like graduation rate, parent and community satisfaction, number of students going on to college, and college grad rate. SATs.

[JerseygirlCT]

33. I know this is often a sacred cow, too, but

what about the role of tenure?

I've come across some whoppers of bad teachers as my oldest has moved through the schools. But they can't be moved out because they've put in their time. It seems that union rules and tenure protect everyone - good or bad teachers. What's your take on that area of bureaucracy in our schools?

[Bigmack]

36. I taught for 30 years...

during which time I was on the Professional Rights and Responsibilities committee of the Association (an Association is like a union... only without balls.)

We defended our teachers who had administrators after them.

I never--- repeat, never--- saw an administrator who followed the contract. Time and again, we were forced - by our contract - to defend teachers who were jerks, lousy teachers, lazy, old/confused.. you name it.

The fucking administrators would simply NOT go thru the steps necessary to fire a teacher. They would just call them in and (try to) fire them.

Admin was supposed to 1) observe the teacher in the classroom several times...no hearsay. 2) counsel the teacher. Then 3)inform the teacher of his/her deficiencies 4) set up a plan to improve those areas of deficiency 5)document that the teacher did not/could not improve those areas of deficiency.. by observing the actual classroom. 6) give them one last chance.

They had to document things.... and they did not.

They had to observe the teacher... and they did not.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. That's very true where I teach also

Tenured teachers don't magically become bad teachers once they are tenured. Our administrators have 5 years before tenure is granted to get rid of bad teachers. But they rarely if ever do all of the paperwork and make all the observations they are required to do. They just transfer the teachers from building to building so they are no longer their problem, but another principal's problem.

[JerseygirlCT]

48. What about other teachers, though

Don't they feel a responsibility to uphold the respect of their profession and police their own?

And I've certainly been told by my kid of teachers near the end of their careers who are now just phoning it in. What recourse is there for that?

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. How are we supposed to do that?

We don't hire. We don't fire. We don't renew contracts. Teachers don't have any power. And in my district, even the good teachers are treated like shit so we are too busy playing our own games with the administration.

I am one of those at the end of my career and I am honestly not just phoning it in. My evaluations now (when the principal bothers to do them) are just about the same now as they were when I first started teaching nearly 30 years ago. Like I said, teachers don't all of a sudden become bad or incompetent. Usually they come in that way and administrators don't bother to do THEIR job to help the teachers get better or to get rid of them.

The longer I am in this business, the more I realize that 99% of our problems lie with the ones in charge. An incompetent principal or administrator does horrific damage and to a lot more kids than just a teacher does. Hell, they can't even manage to buy us the supplies we need. How many teachers do you know who talk about having to buy supplies for their classrooms? That is fairly universal. It's not only because they don't ever give us enough money to run our schools; what money we do get is spent by administrators on stuff we don't need. If they let the teachers manage the budget, we wouldn't be spending money on unnecessary things. (My friend's school took every kid to an amusement park yesterday. I don't even want to know what that cost. And of course, the school paid for the kids to go but not the teachers. They had to buy their own tickets.)

Teachers are really just peons. Most people give us entirely too much blame for the problems in education.

[JerseygirlCT]

52. Then I think maybe that's one of the areas that needs to change

In other professions, most of the "policing" is done by those in the profession themselves. Doctors over doctors, lawyers over lawyers. Certainly there's room for problems there - too often, the first impulse is protect ones own, etc. But generally, the image of the profession carries enough weight that the bad ones get marked out.

MOST of the teachers I've run across have been truly talented, dedicated people working for long hours simply because they believe in what they do. As someone who has spent her career working in non-profits, that certainly resonates with me!

So how do we rid ourselves of officious, bureaucratic administrators? Certainly, that's a problem at my kid's HS. The principal is awful. She's not respected, because she shouldn't be - she hasn't earned it at all.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. I don't agree

How do doctors and lawyers police their professions? Especially doctors? The AMA is one of the most powerful professional organizations in the country. They really cover for their own. Have you ever had a bad doctor and tried to do anything about it? My best friend was given a shot with a dirty needle and literally almost died from the resulting infection. Every doctor who treated her during her 6 week, hundred thousand dollar stay in the hospital told her the dirty needle had caused the infection. They also told her she was lucky to be alive and should be grateful for that. (Move along now, nothing to be angry about!) Her insurance company investigated for months and ended up not being able to sue. Doctors refused to testify and evidence disappeared from labs. And the doctor who was responsible for the dirty shot is still in practice.

I can't even imagine how immoral you need to be to cover up for an accident that nearly resulted in death.

Oh and this dirty needle was at one of those Headache and Pain Centers. The least I can do is to tell people not to go there. Slick commercials, but they almost killed my best friend.

[JerseygirlCT]

103. Those places scare me.

Not too far from the disreputable corner drug dealer.

I've seen the policing happen. But you're right - there is that impulse to protect one's own.

[fed_up_mother]

65. In some schools, teachers protect bad teachers

A bunch of parents at one of my kids' schools (middle school) tried to get a teacher fired. I could give you a LONG list of complaints, but I'll just give you three:

1) Repeatedly smoking outside during class (yes, I repeat, smoking outside during class, 2) making derogatory remarks again and again against a certain minority religious group of kids, and 3) sleeping during class.

She came in third runner up for teacher of the year - voted by her peers. They all supported her against the parents. It was a lousy school in the middle of suburbia surrounded by otherwise good schools. The principal sat on his lazy arse, and didn't do a damn thing to "lead," so every lazy teacher in the school district found his or her way there. Administration didn't do much - after all, most of these kids came from good elementary schools and could "coast" on their previous learning "and" their parents' involvement in their education. Test scores were ok.

A group of parents generally rioted every few months, to no avail.

And that's when I started homeschooling some of my kids.

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. Parents should never have the power to get teachers fired

If that ever comes to pass, I will lobby for teachers to have the power to remove children from bad parents. :)

No, teachers should not defend bad teaching. But 'Teacher of the Year' is just a silly program in place in a few schools. I have never worked in a school that asks teachers to participate in such a contest and if I ever did, I would show my objection by refusing to participate. What does such an award accomplish? In your case, it just added to the resentment the parents felt toward a bad teacher. Asking teachers to compete against one another for a meaningless award accomplishes nothing. Thank goodness most of us have far more important things to do with our time.

[fed_up_mother]

76. Parents absolutely should have the power to present evidence to fire a teacher

which we repeatedly did.

However, with the good ol' boy system in place, the principal was protected, so the teacher was protected.

Thankfully, this was several years ago, he's gone, and the school is supposed to be much better.

I darn well hope so, I have another one headed there in two years.

And, by the way, teachers are - by law - required to notify CPS if they suspect abuse by parents, so you are also in the business of passing on suspected evidence. It's your job. :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. I would be glad to detail several cases of child abuse by parents I have reported

But I don't believe that is the purpose of this thread. :)

Parents have the right to complain to a principal and to the administrators the principal reports to when they are unhappy with a teacher. But no, they should never be able to fire that teacher, regardless of how incompetent the teacher is. That would launch a witch hunt that would threaten our already troubling teacher shortage.

Even good teachers have parents who don't like them. It's part of the job. Last unhappy parent I dealt with who wanted me fired was mad because I refused to exempt her child from homework. The parent wanted me to put that in her IEP and even claimed that her last sped teacher had done so. I explained that homework is district policy, even for students with disabilities, and her child's homework was always modified, as required by IDEA. But this parent called my supervisors and demanded I be fired.

Another parent reported me when her child was suspended for sexual harassment. Her excuse was that she told her son to stay away from those "Mexican" girls and I should have made sure that no "Mexican" girls were in class with him. She also wanted me fired.

I could go on and on but I hope you get the point. There is a system in place for disciplining and firing bad teachers. Parents unhappy with the system have every right to complain and work to change it. But how many of you in this thread alone have ever even bothered to go to a school board meeting or better yet - run for school board and work to change the system? How many have picked up the phone and called their elected reps to express your concerns? Teachers hear from you but we are the wrong audience.

[fed_up_mother]

85. But...do you take breaks to smoke outside?

Do parents have PICTURES of you smoking outside?

And if they did, would you expect to maintain your teaching job?

...

No?

I didn't think so.

This was an exceptionally bad teacher in a school full of bad teachers run by a bad principal.

Another shining example - my daughter was routinely cursed out b a couple of team members (f'k you) in p.e. playing co-ed baseball because she wasn't very good. Upon presenting this information to our - cough, cough - stellar principal, I was told, "Oh, the coach wouldn't allow that. He's a fine Christian man."

Being a christian myself, I might add that this had no bearing on my opinion of that JERK.

[proud2BlibKansan]

86. Like I said, the blame lies with the administrators who allow this teacher to walk out of class

It is their job to build a case and discipline teachers. If they aren't doing their job, you have the right to complain. Sounds like you should. But if it sounds like a witch hunt, you won't get far, regardless of how bad the teacher really is.

[fed_up_mother]

88. Sometimes, a witch hunt is just a bunch of fed up parents, you know

I remember parents going after a particular high school biology teacher because she was so hard. Very hard. Like hardest teacher in the school. (Well, someone has to have that reputation. Right? LOL) A lot of honor students' grade point averages dropped in her class.

Did I think she was too hard? Yes.

Was I going to go to the school board to complain? No.

Not all parents are crazy. Some of us can discern the truly bad teachers from the teachers we'd just rather have avoided. :)

[fed_up_mother]

77. We have district wide "teacher of the year" here

Beginning with the school "teacher of the year," and many districts around us do, as well. All teachers I've known who have won these titles, have been absolute inspirations to other teachers. I'm sure there's some jealousy, but I don't think the teaching profession has to be immune from every bit of competitive spirit that is more common in other workplaces. Sometimes, a "little" competition is a good thing, imo. I think our school district gives a grant to the teacher who wins to use as she pleases in her school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. And just imagine what that grant money could accomplish if shared with the

school or the entire district? I know if I ever got a grant I would spend it on pencils and paper, since my district, like most, never gives us enough money for classroom supplies.

I am not saying competition isn't a good thing. A little bit is probably good. So is bonus pay. The one year I had perfect attendance was the one year we were promised a bonus for coming to school every day. But like every other good idea, it lasted only one year and the following year I was absent a few times.

[fed_up_mother]

87. We aren't a poor school district and the grant is usually used to stimulate

creativity. Generally, the teachers spend it on a pet project of their own that is creative and interesting to the children. If I remember correctly, for instance, one teacher used it on a wildlife habitat for her school. And since the grant comes from the district, it's kind of ridiculous to share it with the district. I think maybe I didn't make myself clear about that.

[JerseygirlCT]

104. Shouldn't parents have a say at all?

Doesn't that just leave all the power in the hands of administrators and isn't that the complaint?

What about feedback from students and parents being part of how teachers are evaluated? I know I'd love the opportunity to rave about the great ones even more than complain about the less than great ones.

[teacher gal]

106. I would welcome

evaluations by parents and students and other teachers in combination with other measures (NOT high stakes tests)!! Imagine that - constructive criticism and praise from people on the ground who actually know what they are talking about!! Parents and teachers need to work together to give our children the best we possibly can.

[JerseygirlCT]

109. That's what I think too - this works best when it works like a

partnership - and both partners need to be willing to contribute for the kids to get the most from it.

[teacher gal]

111. Yes n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

112. Oh definitely parents should have a say

But giving them the power to fire teachers is not a good idea.

[JerseygirlCT]

116. We're in agreement there! nt

[JerseygirlCT]

47. Well, here's one story

an elementary school teacher apparently had been moved to a new elementary school in town after she had been accused of violence toward kids at the first school. Something procedurally went wrong when the town attempted to discipline her for that - she sued, and scared the BOE, and got a new job in town. Unfortunately, my kid got her. She frequently screamed at the children. Out of control stuff- not raised voice to keep things in control. We spoke to the principal, who was thrilled to have parents willing to put their complaints in writing. But she also said that because of the BOE and their fear, she wasn't sure she could get anything done. She suggested our kid turn to guidance whenever things got out of control. When the teacher learned about this, her response was to literally drag our kid by the ear out of the guidance counselor's office. Had I witnessed it, I would have pressed charges. I was disappointed that no one seemed willing to do that.

In any event, there was one teacher who should never be in contact with children. But the union, who apparently backed her suit, and yes, probably fearful administrators, perpetuate the abuse of kids.

I have made it my business to tell every parent I meet at this school the story. I've also found several others who've had similar experience.

This is just the most aggregious example. But to me, from a parents' point of view, the safety and education of my kid comes first - by a long shot - before someone's tenure or career track. I wish more administrators and more teachers were willing to insist on higher standards and not accept the bad apples in their midst.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. And what did the guidance counselor do?

If the teacher really grabbed your kid by the ear and dragged him out of the counselor's office and the counselor saw that, then the counselor is legally mandated to report it. Even the union can't defend a teacher (or a counselor) for failing to report physical abuse of a child. That is a federal law.

If the counselor doesn't report it then you should. The child abuse laws are very strict. There have been many cases of teachers and principals losing their jobs for failing to report child abuse. If this teacher really is physically abusive, then she will be easy to get rid of.

But if you are exaggerating then making a false accusation of abuse against a teacher, even a bad teacher, and slandering her to other parents could result in a libel suit by that teacher against you.

So if she really is abusive, report her. If not, you need to stop slandering her.

[JerseygirlCT]

54. Obviously, I wasn't there.

But as I recall (it was many years ago now), and as it was reported to me at the time, it was after he left the guidance office and was on his way back to the classroom. And as I said, past reports had resulted in... nothing. It's a small town, and the fear of another suit from her seems to be impeding any action against her. What I really don't understand is why someone who obviously dislikes kids and teaching continues to do it. Someone with a temper that out of control really should not be in any proximity to children on a professional basis.

And libel threats or not, I'll continue to warn parents off that teacher. She helped create problems that took us years to overcome. He's been blessed with some wonderful mentors and teachers since then, who have reignited the excitement of learning for its own sake. But that was a very bad, and very long year.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. If you grabbed your kid by the ear and dragged him anywhere,

and he went to school and told that teacher, she would be breaking the law if she did not report it to the Child Abuse Hotline. Like I said, it is a federal law and teachers are mandated reporters. As the kids would say, we don't play when it comes to reporting child abuse. If this teacher really is abusive, she will be easy to get rid of.

[BanzaiBonnie]

62. 6% of the population are sociopaths/psychopaths

These people often seek positions of power over others.

Most people who are in the field of education are, well, they're just the best. There a few who should never be allowed near children.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. In all the years I have taught, I have worked with hundreds of teachers

and only 2, who in my opinion, shouldn't have been teaching. One was just stupid and the other was lazy. Neither one was cruel. I am not saying there aren't cruel authoritarians in this business, just that I have not worked with any. Actually most of the authoritarians on a power trip are principals.

[teacher gal]

73. There is no union membership in my neck of the woods

In my eleven years of teaching, I encountered three teachers who had no business teaching. All three were asked to resign and did.

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. We have two unions and I belong to both of them

They usually compete for members but I pay to be a member of both. I was also a national delegate for AFT when NEA voted against the merger. Biggest mistake ever made by our profession. The merger would have created the country's largest union. And since that failed attempt to merge, NCLB has come into our world. I seriously doubt that law would have been passed with the combined power of AFT and NEA united to lobby against it.

Belonging to a union empowers you with a voice to stand up for our profession and our kids. I am so sorry you have no union representation where you teach.

[JerseygirlCT]

101. I'd believe that. People in love with authority would naturally

seek the positions in which they could exercise that authority. Truly, that's what was so shocking about this case. Even discounting the physical stuff, why would someone who loses her temper on a near daily basis when dealing with kids want to spend her life in a job where she deals with kids? When I've had jobs that have left me that upset on a daily basis, I've eventually figured out it was time to move on, you know?

And stupid and lazy are to be found everywhere, I'm afraid! Luckily, not in the majority most of the time!

[JerseygirlCT]

100. Yes, I agree.

The vast majority are terrific and dedicated. There have been a few who were just either not talented or smart enough to do the job, or this one, who was truly not in a proper field for someone with her problems. I'm very thankful for the terrific ones, believe me. It's not a job I could do, that's for sure. I lack the patience for that all day every day stuff. I enjoy teaching my own kids - to a point, lol.

[fed_up_mother]

64. We also had many more great or good teachers

but - geesh - when you get a bad teacher, they can make you and your child's life a living hell.

We had one high school teacher who threw books at kids. locked kids in closets (large walk in closets with lights), cursed them, cried in class about how their parents were picking on her, and it took us THREE YEARS to get rid of her.

And one of my kids had such bad teachers in middle school (especially one), that we starting homeschooling her and a sibling. I've written about one of the teachers in another post. She was completely protected by her fellow teachers.

It's that kind of crap that makes unions look bad. Sad, really, when we need an insurgence of MORE unions in this country - not less.

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. It is not impossible to fire tenured teachers; that is a myth

It is just expensive. In my district, tenure isn't granted for 5 years. So the district has 5 years to weed out a bad teacher. But incompetent administrators rarely do so. Like the other poster said, they fail to fill out paperwork and follow the process (which isn't all that complicated).

[LWolf]

90. I support tenure. Here's why:

The political climate in public schools, and the public nature of the job, put teachers in a risky position.

Districts routinely change school administrators for political reasons. In one district I worked in for 20 years, they routinely moved principals every 3 years, so that no school culture could develop, so that everything was constantly being "shaken up," and all the power remained at the top of the pyramid. Every time a principal moved, he or she would take a large chunk of loyal staff with them. The staff that remained behind would get not just a new boss, but the new troops as well, ensuring that whatever had gone before was scrapped for a new agenda. Repeatedly.

In my 25 years in public ed, I've seen transfers, evaluations, and job assignments all manipulated as tools to bribe, to punish, or to achieve an administrative agenda that had nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of instruction or the good of the school.

Tenure protects teachers from some of that corrupt manipulation.

Districts have what they need in place to remove bad teachers, tenure or not. They just can't do so without due process. Sometimes they choose not to use that due process, because it costs time and resources. Sometimes because there is no legitimate reason for removal.

Here is a hard truth for you: for every single teacher in a classroom, there will be students and families that like what happens in the room, students and families who tolerate it, those who don't like it, and those who HATE it. Not every attack on a teacher is valid. Not every perceived injustice is an injustice, when the whole story is known. I already know students who tell their teachers "my mom will get you fired" when faced with any kind of disciplinary action.

Happily, I've always had more supportive parents, who worked with me, than not. If parents and admins really COULD "get a teacher fired" without due process, who would be willing to become a teacher? No matter how superlative a teacher is, there is always, over the course of a career, going to be a few corrupt admins who will abuse professional privilege, and there are going to be a few families who need a scapegoat.

Teachers are not the scapegoats for the ills of society or the system.

Over the course of my career, the vast majority of the families I've worked with have been good partners. I've had my share of complaints, too. Most of them were trivial, and easily resolved. Only one ever threatened legal action. Here's the story:

I started the year with 37 students, 1st - 3rd grade. I was provided with 33 student desks and chairs. I requested more, and was told that there was not another chair and desk on site or in the district to be had. So, the weekend before school started, I went to Target and bought, with my own money, 4 "lap desks." Each day, 4 students had to sit on the floor with the lap desk. I took volunteers, and made sure that it was a different 4 students each day. I had no shortage of volunteers; they though the lap desks were "cool."

When one girl, who had volunteered, went home and told her mom she sat on the floor, the mom was at school at 7:30 am the next morning with a lawyer. She told my principal that they would either fire me, or she would have me charged with child abuse, and sue the district.

The principal was well aware of the seating problem in my room, and what I'd done about it. I wasn't responsible for the lack of desks and chairs, or for the overcrowded classroom. Still, in the face of an aggressive threat of bad publicity, without tenure I might have been transferred, or placed on leave, or something to appease the angry parent. Instead, my principal, and my district, had to defend me. In the face of hard facts, instead of bureaucrats scrambling to cover their ass, the parent backed down. I was called to the office. She very stiffly apologized, and requested that her daughter not be assigned to a floor seat again.

The next morning the girl told me, with tears in her eyes, "I'm sorry my mom made such a big deal. I told her I WANTED to sit there, but she wouldn't listen."

Instead of trying to do away with tenure, people who are concerned about bad teachers should be pouring their energy into two avenues: improving the practice of ALL teachers, and actually using the due process at their disposal to remove those who can't be improved.

[teacher gal]

93. Well said.

As usual!

[fed_up_mother]

94. I've been very supportive of at least 95% of my children's teachers

And where I haven't been, I have been happy to lead the way to provide evidence if I truly believe the teacher is a "bad apple."

Some teachers just aren't good fits.

Some teachers just are harder than others. Or easier.

Or make mistakes. They're human.

Some teachers are having a bad year - maybe going through a divorce. They still need to do their jobs, but - damn - cut them some slack if they have a bad day here and there. That's life.

And some teachers - a small minority, but more than most teachers are willing to acknowledge - are grossly incompetent or cruel and I will do everything I can to see that that teacher is removed from the school. I will document. I will take photos, if necessary. I will talk to other parents. I will lead the proverbial witch hunt, if necessary, and I won't stop until the teacher is gone.

[teacher gal]

95. But it is the 5%

that seem to get all the attention by the media, think tanks, politicians, etc. who routinely malign and disparage public schools and teachers.

[fed_up_mother]

98. I agree, and that is a real shame

[teacher gal]

102. We are on the same side...

....for kids. And democracy and the common good. As LWolf has already stated, teachers are the last who would want our profession undermined by poor or incompetent teachers. But the vast majority of teachers care deeply about their students and are doing their best despite incredible challenges and obstacles. Therefore, we dearly need your support, dear parents, and you need and deserve the support of your children's teachers.

[LWolf]

96. That's as it should be.

Please know that most of us feel just as strongly as you about removing those who damage our students and our professions.

Due process is all it takes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

113. One of the worst angry parents I ever dealt with was elected to school board

He was a raging lunatic who told me over and over all year that since I was white I couldn't possibly meet the needs of his African American child. He was as nasty a parent as I have ever had. Every time he came to school I refused to talk to him unless the principal was present.

Then 10 years later he had managed to get elected to the school board and he became board president. That entire two year period, I thanked God every day for tenure.

[LWolf]

123. I hear you.

So many people seem to bring so much baggage with them to school. Without something to filter out the baggage, and focus on the current situation, teachers would be sitting ducks.

I am blatantly open about the dysfunctions in the system, including systemic policies and procedures that don't serve students well. I'm a strong supporter of change in the system, when that change will allow schools to better serve students.

I don't think further targeting of teachers is the way to accomplish that.

[fed_up_mother]

63. Year round institutionalism is anti-Gato

When the school becomes your source of learning, health, daycare, etc., it's just another orphanage away from home. That's what Gato was against. Kids need to be free to play, to move around, to learn...in the world...not just a larger institution with more offerings.

Some of my kids were homeschooled and some were public schooled (with no complaints, except for one horrible school), and there is just such a difference of "spirit" in my homeschooled kids. I trusted my homeschooled kids to drive earlier, to go out into the world and work earlier, and just generally to have more freedom earlier, and yet my public schooled kids were great kids. They simply did not have that same spirit of independence my homeschooled kids did. They were accustomed to moving with the pack.

And don't get me wrong. I didn't do it alone. My homeschooled kids took classes from many wonderful "professional" teachers, but the point is that they were not institutionalized with a large pack of kids all day long.

Imo, the two most damaging things about school are 1) being part of the herd or 2) not being part of the herd (think about that), and no amount of money can really do away with that aspect of throwing hundreds of kids in an institution, unfortunately. Very small schools, maybe, but I just don't see middle schools and high schools getting "very small" considering how we worship sports in this country. And small schools can be very cliquey.

And by the way, I'm very supportive of our public schools. I realize that most parents can't do what I did, nor do they necessarily want to.

[LWolf]

82. That's the point of public education.

Not "year-round institutionalism," but to make sure that every child has the opportunity to become educated, whether their parents have the resources and qualifications to teach them at home, or not.

If we could move public ed away from the factory model it is built on, we'd offer better opportunities.

Small schools, small classes, a better adult-student ratio, more flexibility.

[lildreamer316]

118. I can agree with each and every one of these things!

How I hope to see them come to fruition in our lifetime.
Thanks for being there.
-daughter of a lifetime teacher (English, Composition; and Adult Education)

[BanzaiBonnie]

61. It was not my intention to feed anti-education sentiment

I am very pro public education.

And I believe that those on the front of education reforms WERE making a difference - they were moving away from the factory model of education. NCLB took us back to ...

[LWolf]

92. That's true.

I was privileged to work in two schools that were structured differently before NCLB. That's why I've been a defiant opponent of the "standards and accountability" movement from the beginning, when it was still under construction at the state level. Not because I don't have high standards, and not because I don't think accountability is a good thing. Because one of the real purposes was to undo all the gains we'd made.

That has certainly happened. :(

[proud2BlibKansan]

114. Gatto is very anti public education

His works are not even used in most teacher colleges anymore or in professional development.

[ulysses]

133. best comment I've read on the topic.

I haven't commented on this thread before now because I'm trying to get over my kneejerk reaction to Gatto and how his ideas are usually presented. Fact is that, yes, many if not most of us would like to do things differently and do when we can.

But the risk is that the backlash to the current business model will take us in an equally wrong direction.

[LucyParsons]

18. I like Gatto nt

[conspirator]

21. I am in favor of part-time home schooling. Public schools are jungles and tools for

brainwashing and stupidification of the masses.

[JerseygirlCT]

105. Ideally, education is an ongoing, f/t process at home

regardless of where formal education takes place. Unfortunately, too many don't think that way.

[LeftyMom]

22. I don't think there's any way to make one-size fits all education work.

There's simply no way that thirty kids grouped by age and neighborhood have the same capabilities and interests, so it's stupid to teach them all the same things at once.

Further, it's stupid, useless and harmful to the child to try to teach a skill before a child is developmentally ready to learn it. An inflexible system where everybody has to be at some abstract grade level does not serve student needs. All kids will be a bit ahead in some things and behind in others, that's completely normal.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. One thing that drives my mom the former kindergarten teacher crazy

is hearing of kids being taught reading and writing in kindergarten.

Not that she couldn't have done it, because she was certified for K-3, but when she took her training in the 1940s, the prospective teachers were told that kindergarten was specifically for hands-on experiences, learning to get along with people outside their own family, hearing lots of stories to expand their vocabularies and imaginations, learning to work with art and craft materials, learning to sing in a group, playing active games, and training eye-to-hand coordination and memory as preparation for reading. Then, in the last two weeks of kindergarten, the children were supposed to learn the alphabet and how to write their names as a preview of first grade.

Teachers in those days were taught that most children aren't neurologically ready to read at age 5 and that forcing them to do so would lead to confusion and frustration.

I wonder if a lot of supposed learning disabilities aren't really the result of children being forced to learn to read before they're ready.

Note that many European countries, including the Scandinavian countries and Russia (yes, even in the Communist days when they were supposed to be teaching all their high schoolers calculus and physics) don't teach reading till age 7, and all of them have more phonetic writing systems than English.

[LeftyMom]

37. And other kids teach themselves to read well before that,

and would be bored to death with nothing to read. Which sort of makes my point, about how the institutional school model breaks down on exposure to actual children, and their normal variations in interest, development and ability.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. I was an early reader, and I don't recall being bored in kindergarten

We did a lot of acting out stories, playing in little toy houses and stores, playing games that, in retrospect, were designed to enhance pattern recognition ("What's the difference between these two pictures?") During the winter, we did circle dances and sang songs. I could always read when I got home at noon. :-)

[LeftyMom]

39. I was enormously bored, even starting a year early.

All of that stuff was definitely remedial. But I did learn to tie my shoes, which I was having a hard time with (my fine motor skills are still unimpressive.) As I said, there's just no way to keep 30 kids on pace to learn at the same time.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. My school had class sizes of 15 for kindergarten and first grade

which was an excellent idea.

Of course, that was in the 1950s, when education was still well funded.

[LeftyMom]

41. I think ours was in the low twenties.

It really doesn't matter, if you got down to five kids to a class, they'd still be learning at different paces.

Factory schooling doesn't work.

[JerseygirlCT]

108. That was mine.

He came to school already reading and writing well. He taught himself. Determined not to be left behind in any way, that one.

But there were definitely others who simply weren't ready - and were very stressed about it and felt badly about themselves because they weren't getting it at that age.

From what I've read, they all tend to catch up eventually - some just start earlier than others.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. Kindergarten isn't kindergarten anymore

It's watered down 1st grade.

[JerseygirlCT]

107. I've seen a big difference

between the last few years and say, 10 years before that.

It worked out well for us with our youngest, as he was one of those very early readers who really needed far more academic stimulation than what kindergarten offered 10 years ago - he was very lucky to have a teacher who recognized that - and also recognized that emotionally he was still a little kid, not a mini-adult. She was terrific!

[proud2BlibKansan]

115. I knew it was changing when they stopped the naps and the snacks 20 years ago

Still drives me nuts. I am in favor of all day kindergarten but those babies need quiet time in the afternoons.

And surprise, surprise, we have increasing behavior problems from our kindergarteners.

[JerseygirlCT]

117. I remember those naps!

I actually had to attend 3 different kindergartens as my family moved around. But the last one, I really got attached to my teacher - so I have these really vivid memories of it. Naptime was nice!

[Freda People]

121. It's all about the tests now--

Worksheets for writing, teaching phonics and symbol recognition....
Seated at tables to color in and cut pre-determined patterns and pictures

Pretend play is OUT

It's all about the scores on standardized tests now.

CHILDHOOD is out. Behaviors are worse--the expectations are premature and inappropriate, and actually hurting healthy development.

Preschools are teaching reading / writing and math skills now, and many many parents expect and WANT this--they don't know anything else except "Sooner is better than later."

Young people need much much more than what teachers/ school materials marketing corporations say......fully informed citizens, social participants need a full CHILDHOOD to let the body grow into itself. Finnish children don't even start school til age seven, and their scores beat the USA's.

We are such a nation of worriers we have forgotten about what the STAGE of childhood is for....

[lightningandsnow]

68. Hmm. I don't know about that.

I mean, I'm not the average kid, but I've been reading since the age of three, possibly earlier than that.

Everyone develops at different levels, and I know that if I hadn't been reading in school until 2nd grade, I would have still learned to read AND been bored as crap.

[Freda People]

124. True points

"We made it ok!" and that's what makes it hard to speak for children nowadays.

There are many reasons childhood is not a priority in the coming generations, so we have to really try to notice the entire set of societal and media trends and shifts.
- children are on more medication for mental health diagnoses - adhd, 'behavior disorders', anxiety
- stress is now an educational phenomenon and by middle/high school, depression and suicide are up
- free time is taken up often with electronics vs. pretend/physical play--obesity is epidemic
- free time is taken up with scheduled formal activities--the benefit of neighborhood game playing with flexibility, negotiating, social skill in general is harder to come by
- cheating in high school and college is at record highs--the pressure to 'succeed' at all costs is even an issue with us parents....how we Push, and lose sight of the big picture of work ethic and what success means
- families move faster than ever, with inconsistent rhythms/routines of daily living
- parents are more stressed than ever....we know children are sponges...
- overexposure of young children and young teens to adult matters and material--e.g., how many of us have seen toddlers at explosive, loud, violent, sexualized movies, sitting on parents' laps? TV programs, video games, TV COMMERCIALS even....


These are only some to note. Notice the prevailing view of childhood nowadays that education contributes to, and is affected by...

KEEP CHILDHOOD IN EDUCATION and we parents need to be MINDFUL of protecting it, and advocating for it...check into Waldorf Schools, traditional Montessori (they're getting more academic tho too), Emilio Reggio and many others where stages of actual CHILDHOOD development SHAPE the activities in school. Rudolf Steiner College in Sacramento, CA works to help teachers incorporate Waldorf perspectives and practices into public schools at least.

Our world needs fully and well-rounded participating people now, not reading and writing machines. We no longer can afford to mess with future generations' capacities for creativity, flexibility of thinking, compassion and innovation. There is really no room for error anymore......

[lightningandsnow]

128. I dunno. You bring up a good point, but...

the thing is, I was a kid not that long ago. (I'm 16 now.)

I say we let kids be kids, but let them do "academic" stuff too if they have that potential at a young age.

[Freda People]

122. BINGO

Research supports exactly what you say, and as a school psychologist I agree as well. The disabilities that are showing up more now through the elementary grades revolve more around children not being organized and able to keep up with writing activities, lack of engagement, so-called ADHD...with and without hyperactivity.

Other 'disabilities' are mostly about underdeveloped sensory processing systems--lots of these children were in preschool at age 2 and 3. Preschools now push phonics and letter recognition and writing--seat work at a table is expected in most....

Read the Washington Post's article (from February) on Finnish Students with scores way higher than the USA--they start school at age 7...

There is a lot of money-making to be had with educational products and curriculum packages--education is seen as the premier entrepreneurial market to get into nowadays--It is a government bureaucracy being overrun with very slick marketing campaigns, and we buy it hook, line and sinker....

If the goal is to raise children to be fully informed and functioning participants in their communities, then we have to let children have A CHILDHOOD!!

[otherlander]

23. I love this thread.

See the sigline.

[LucyParsons]

24. Seconded.

Kick.

[Hekate]

25. Home schooling text books are bankrolled by extreme RWers. The RW meme about the evilness of public

...education is one that you should look into.

Ask yourself "who does it serve?" to have people believe that public schools are an abject failure and that we should steer our tax money toward private and charter schools.

Government and public schools alike have their share of problems and are far from perfect, but they have always served the public good well enough. However, the meme that both are failures and unworthy of our tax dollars is a far-RW one. Starve the schools of money -- and see how they fail. Starve the government of money and competent career civil servants -- and see how it fails.

Hekate

[LeftyMom]

26. Most of the early school criticism came from the left.

It wasn't until the eighties, when tax law made small church schools less profitable, that the right went to homeschooling in numbers. Even then, their objection generally isn't to the factory school model (since many do what homeschoolers describe as school-at-home with regimented schedules, textbooks for everything, etc) it's only to what schools are teaching.

[Hekate]

28. Thanks for the input. I don't have time just now for links or more nuance. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. You are talking about two different issues

You are correct about the criticism from the left. But the RW started criticizing public education after they started opening private academies in the 70s to avoid having to send their children to desegregated public schools. After a decade or so, they realized education was expensive and the voucher movement was born. It was then that they began their mission to get their hands on public moneys to fund their schools. I believe they brought in the criticism of the curriculum to draw the extreme RW to their cause. So they don't really object to what public schools are teaching, they object to WHO public schools are teaching.

Of course I can't prove that but my career in urban schools has spanned nearly 30 years and I have watched it evolve. Just this year, a neighboring school district was allowed to annex a chunk of our district. It was the only majority white area in our district and the parents in that area had always objected to the minority kids who attended school in their community.

So from my perspective, this movement to discredit public education and build support for vouchers has racism at its roots.

[LeftyMom]

67. Okay, you're conflating three different things.

1. Vouchers- I have no support for them, because I don't think there's any significant difference between most public and private schools. I don't know of any school critics who are fans, either. I don't know if voucher programs could be considered racist, since they'd give minority kids more access to private schools than they currently have, but in any case I really see no need to defend them since they just plain don't work.

2. Right wing philosophy- I think it's important to keep in mind that most right wingers DO support public education, they just want to mold it to their ideology. They certainly have no problem with the effect of creating half-educated compliant worker bees, which is what public schools were designed to do. Their support for charters, vouchers, etc, is easily explained by a desire to get their kids out of that system, without having to pay for an alternative themselves- classic right wing thought processes if ever I saw them.

3. School criticism- It's quite clear from the evidence that school as it is done in this country simply does not work. There's plenty of literature exploring why it doesn't work, how it doesn't work, if it can be reformed or must be reimagined, and how to go about doing that. Hell, I've argued with you about some of it before, so I'm perfectly aware that you know about it. That criticism definitely isn't a function of the right or a response to desegregation, since much of the pivotal work (Illich's, and some of Holt's, "free schools" and the example of Summerhill in particular,) precedes both national desegregation and the rise of the fundamentalist right.

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. 1. There is no voucher program that would pay for 100% of the costs of a private school

For that reason, they are not giving any low income minority kids access to private education. Even if they cover tuition, the extras are beyond the budget of any of the families my public school serves. I went to private school on scholarship and my parents struggled to pay for all the extras not included in the tuition - books, lunches, uniforms, extra curricular fees. We even had to pay a fee to use the school library. So no, vouchers don't really help kids from low income families.

I also realize it is just my opinion but I honestly believe vouchers and tuition tax credits and all the other schemes promoted by the right to take funding away from public schools are racist in origin. I post my opinion hoping that maybe other educators have seen the same pattern and can connect the dots like I have.

2. I think we agree but I don't believe the right wing philosophy supports public education. They constantly criticize it and promote programs that are destructive to our public school system. How can that be confused with support? If they really supported our public schools, they would be working to improve them instead of destroy them. They would be running for school boards and sponsoring scholarships for future teachers. But I don't see them doing that.

3. I agree. But right now, NCLB is dominating our public schools and they are literally frozen out of any other reform efforts. Until we rid ourselves of NCLB, significant reforms are an unattainable dream.

[greenbriar]

34. l

\

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. Gatto is an odd duck

But he does have some ideas worth looking into.

[teacher gal]

46. PLEASE READ THIS

IMO, the response found here by LWolf is spot on: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3330366&mesg_id=3330540

And indeed the title of this thread does (inadvertently I hope) play right into the hands of the very corporate/politicos who are responsible for the standardization of education, which works to "reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality." The current standards and accountability movement and high stakes testing work wonderfully toward this end. Ironic isn't it? Though what Mencken and Gatto describe has always been true to some extent, with the No Child Left Behind Act we have standardization on steroids.

The answer is not to destroy our nation's system of a "free" public education for all children. IN SPITE OF the enormous efforts from every direction to discredit public education, and IN SPITE of the endless cycle of unhelpful and useless "reforms" that are imposed on them, public schools (our national scapegoat) manage to do a great deal of good. If you think our growing inequality in this nation is bad now, God help us if public education is destroyed. The answer, in my opinion, is for ordinary folks to take back their schools and head in the other direction. We need enormous grassroots efforts.

[teacher gal]

49. Again,

I am distressed by this thread (at least its subject line) because it plays right into the hands of the very forces who have imposed the type of educational outcomes Gatto has described. Does anyone get the irony?

[teacher gal]

53. Sigh

Shall I give up?

Lots of good discussion going on but I wish someone would respond to the points I've raised as well.

[teacher gal]

55. double sigh nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. Gatto has done more harm than good

Like I told Grrenbriar above, he is an odd duck. And he hasn't done educators any favors.

[teacher gal]

71. I agree!

He identifies a very real problem but blames public schools themselves rather than the ruling elites that are controlling those schools...and his "solutions" (insofar as I am familiar with them) would have the business interests behind this impoverished view of education laughing all the way to the bank.

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. What irritates me the most about Gatto

is the 'regimentation' he so loudly rejects is part of life. We don't get to wake up every day and decide what we want to do. We have to shower, dress, brush our teeth and go to work. And we are all driven by schedules. We don't do children any favors when we allow them to make decisions (choices) about how to spend their days. If we want them to be productive members of a society, they have to learn to respect the rules of that society. What Gatto calls regimentation I call life training. Unless you want your child to live in a society of one, a certain amount of life training is important. It is also important for kids to learn to work with their peers. Many employers tell us that the ability to get along with others is more important to them when they hire employees than the ability to do the work.

However, I do believe that some schools go overboard. I refuse to take my students to the restroom as a group. Not everyone's bladder fills up at the same time. I also think it is ridiculous to tell kids they can't talk during lunch. Instead, we should teach them how to eat and socialize at the same time, which is an important life skill.

We can pay attention to Gatto and learn from him but he does go overboard in a few areas.

[fascisthunter]

126. That's the Plan... discredit "public" to Convince People to Privatize

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. Couldn't agree more

Best comment in the thread. :applause:

[fascisthunter]

125. You Nailed It...

"The answer, in my opinion, is for ordinary folks to take back their schools and head in the other direction. We need enormous grassroots efforts.
"

I like your take on the situation better.


PS - Stop attacking public education... help it.

[ikojo]

60. Public school has always been about creating

the next generation of complacent and obedient workers. I remember hearing in elementary school..follow directions..do what I say...independent and critical thinking were not encouraged. More emphasis was placed on being on time (punctuality) than on creativity.

The teacher is merely the first boss a working class American will have. It doesn't get any better after one graduates, that is for sure.

[PassingFair]

66. That's why I'M sending my children to a Madrassa!

Where they can enjoy segregation by gender,
color AND religion!



:sarcasm:

Here is how I really feel about public education.
It is the MOST IMPORTANT foundation of our
country, which espouses equality for ALL,
as our most brilliant founder details.

http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1370.htm

snip>

"The public education... we divide into three grades: 1. Primary schools, in which are taught reading, writing, and common arithmetic, to every infant of the State, male and female. 2. Intermediate schools, in which an education is given proper for artificers and the middle vocations of life; in grammar, for example, general history, logarithms, arithmetic, plane trigonometry, mensuration, the use of the globes, navigation, the mechanical principles, the elements of natural philosophy, and, as a preparation for the University, the Greek and Latin languages. 3. An University, in which these and all other useful sciences shall be taught in their highest degree; the expenses of these institutions are defrayed partly by the public, and partly by the individuals profiting of them." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:487"

[Geek_Girl]

80. The Solution to this problem is Montessori Schools

I have a 5 year old in Pre-K. She is learning

Math
Science
Reading
Spanish
Cursive
as well as many other skills

and she is only in Pre-K. Every nite she brings home a reading list and she is to read the words and tell me the meaning.



If I put her in Public school this coming Fall she would be in Kindergarten learning the primary colors and ABC's.

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. I love Montessori schools

More Montessori in our public schools would be a great thing.

[Geek_Girl]

89. I think it would be wonderful if Public Schools adopted a Montessori Approach to teaching

I think there could be a monetary incentive as well since large class rooms aren't as much of an issue with the Montessori method.

[LWolf]

97. I worked at a school that did just that, in the early 90s.

We loved it. It wasn't as effective as what you would get at a real Montessori school. We didn't have the option of reducing class size, and were operating with 30 - 35 kids in every class.

It was still good.

It went away when CA's "STAR" system came on line, a few years before NCLB.

[proud2BlibKansan]

110. We have several Montessori schools in our district

The problem with taking it district wide anywhere is the expense. All of the materials are heavily copyrighted (and way overpriced, IMO) and the training is VERY expensive. Public schools just can't afford it. I also think the reduced class sizes would be a huge expense.

[lildreamer316]

119. As well as Friends Schools! (Quaker-based)!

I loved mine sooooooo much.

[Freda People]

129. Focus on HOW to teach CHILDREN

Montessori in its original state focused on the child. That is less the case now as even preschools succumb to marketing and created public desire for "School Readiness", reading and writing at the earliest ages.

Our experience with our daughter in Montessori was the teachers and the director expected 3 year olds to be "self-initiating"--that's just one example of our horror....Most people are forgetting about CHILDHOOD and focused on TASK COMPLETION and pushing to get through what's on the lesson plan.

Montessori APPROACH, EMilio Reggio and Waldorf Schools (Rudolf Steiner pedagogy) are all examples to LEARN FROM. We don't have to implement any fully and completely RE-DO education. Our emphasis needs to be on Remembering Childhood - what the different stages of childhood are FOR, particularly infancy through 2nd grade. We are rushing children into visual activities and sitting at tables/desks WAY TOO EARLY.

Let's focus more on HOW/WHAT things children need to learn at which AGES, and less on what label the educational system comes from. Tons of research shows children's brains and bodies are ready to do different things at certain ages--education as a GOVERNMENT bureaucracy is the only system that does not rely on the science of child development. Places like Waldorf, Emilio Reggio, and (Montessori less so nowadays), at least advocating the notion that earlier childhood ages are SEPARATE from pre-teen and adolescence.

[WinkyDink]

130. And students ARE called "products" by Administrators, who fancy themselves company CEO's instead

of educational leaders.
Don't get me started.

[Freda People]

131. I agree.

We got it in our societal heads that schools should be run like successful businesses and in the process have literally thrown the babies (they are indeed CHILDREN) out with the bath water.

I shouldn't get started either...

[JCMach1]

132. Wait until the home-school fundy madrassa generation comes of age

The anti-education movement in the states should be stopped cold!