I want facts, not supposition, not lies, not swiftboating. About McCain.

[Ilsa]

First of all, I don't like McCain. He's a suck up. He launches ad hominem attacks. I don't want him elected president.

Frankly, I don't know why any Democrat wants to go back to the 1960's to dig up dirt on John McCain when he was in the Navy.

I've heard stories that he crashed four or five planes. I don't know if that is true or if he only lost the one aircraft he was shot down in.

I've heard that he wet-started his A-4 on the Forrestal, causing the aircraft behind him to misfire a rocket, which hit a fuel supply and other armamments, resulting in 134 deaths. I know about the Forrestal fire, but I have never heard of anyone providing documentation that this happened because of McCain. That's a serious charge to make. Yes, I realize someone could have doctored the reports, but where is the proof? I'm not comfortable telling a story like this if it is a lie.

I don't know why his A-4 was shot down. The story I heard and read was that when the Vietnamese discovered he was an admiral's son, they offered to send him home for medical treatment. He declined because he didn't believe he should leave as long as the other POWs were being held. This is where the "hero" status comes in. Is this true or not?

I'm not comfortable with questioning someone's service and likely sacrifices unless I have solid evidence to the contrary. I don't like hearing it on left radio or reading it, either.

I don't think swiftboating McCain is going to work.

[rateyes]

1. Here's a fact about McCain:

He's a sack of shit. I don't know about all those other things.

[Ilsa]

15. Yep, I can use that! LOL. nt

[nebenaube]

2. How about the fact...

that he has been tortured and brainwashed and is nothing more than a useful tool.

[Ilsa]

16. Okay, I'll buy that one. nt

[Zynx]

44. That's a pretty sleazy line of attack.

[electropop]

3. McCain doesn't know Shiite from Shinola. There's recent video proving that.

Google on McCain LIEberman Al Qaeda Iran.

There's also recent footage of McCain saying he's fine with being in Iraq for 100 years.

There's also a clip of him admitting he doesn't know much about the economy.

McCain is on record as anti-torture and more recently, pro-torture.

No lies required - McCain is producing our TV spots for us!

[Ilsa]

17. True. No lies required! nt

[thoughtanarchist]

4. I think swiftboating WILL work.

Were you a member of DU during the '04 campaign?

They will not be playing by the Queens rules for gentlemanly fisticuffs and neither should we.

You don't take a butterfly to a knife fight.

[Ilsa]

18. Yeah, I was around way before that. I was hoping we wouldn't have

to sink to their level. I'm not comfortable with that level of dirty work. Good luck, though. But I can't defend it.

[thoughtanarchist]

26. The point is not to have to defend it.

It is not done by the candidates themselves. It's done by unconnected groups, 527's, and whisper campaigns.

They have already started in case you haven't been watching.

When questioned about it, the candidate rejects the sentiment, yet it continues, and people are swayed by it.

In '04 I preferred not having to sink to their level.

This year I want a Democrat in the White House.

[Ilsa]

31. Well, okay, maybe we'll have to. I hope not. nt

[TooBigaTent]

5. His less-than-stellar record as a pilot is fact. His killing of the crewmembers of the

Forrestal is fact. His losing / crashing five aircraft is fact.

He is considered a hero because he was shot down; i.e., because he was a failure as a pilot.

But his connections through his daddy and his drug-addict mistress (Barbie Stepford) kept him from suffering any consequences for his actions.

Even dumping his crippled wife for the "trollop" / c*** did not hurt him.

the lesson should be to fight with EVERY weapon available because even the truth does little harm to a puke. Don't disarm yourself needlessly.

[maui9002]

11. Terribly and unnecessarily misleading

If the author of the OP wants the facts, review the entries on McCain's military career, all of his mishaps, his imprisonment, and his personal life in Wikipedia. Based on what I've read over the years, the summaries there are accurate. They will also provide support for the following:

1. He was not one of the best pilots, and was indeed involved in five incidents with his planes, all of which are explained in the Wikipedia articles. And frankly, I just don't see the argument that being shot down by enemy fire on a mission over Hanoi can be regarded as losing your plane--does that mean that all pilots who are shot down by enemy fire should be disrespected for that fact?

2. McCain did not kill anyone on the Forrestal; either his plane or the plane next to him were hit by a rocket that fired off accidentally from another area of the deck. McCain was almost killed in the accident and according to many reports tried to help his fellow crewmembers while risking his own safety.

3. He is not considered a hero because he was shot down; he in considered a hero by many because he endured years of torture as a prisoner of war and refused to be released before other prisoners because of his father; in keeping with his character (stubborn, headstrong, and combative), he also participated in a number of incidents as a prisoner that I believe were admirable and showed courage. Again, see the Wikipedia article for details.

4. To say he didn't suffer any consequences is completely inaccurate; McCain was tortured for years and survived in terrible conditions(as were other prisoners), and his medical treatment was woeful (which is why to this day he can't raise his arms above his head--because the broken bones he suffered when he was shot down were never set properly by the North Vietnamese).

5. While he was involved in extramarital affairs, and divorced his wife, who was badly injured in a car accident while McCain was in prison, while dating Cindy Hensley (his current wife), that did not happen until 1980, seven years after he returned from North Vietnam, and by all accounts he and his first wife remain friendly. The point here is that you can criticize McCain for his extramarital affairs, but characterizing it as dumping his crippled wife to marry a "trollop/ ***t" is not a fair assessment of what happened. I'm also confused why Cindy McCain should be referred to as a "trollop/ ***t".

Ordinarily, I wouldn't bother to reply to this type of message, but I was (and remain) terribly disappointed and angry that Republicans and others used the same type of inaccurate and misleading information to discredit John Kerry's war record, which I believed was exemplary. It should not happen to any man or woman, regardless whether he or she is a Democrat or a Republican.

McCain can be attacked, and easily, for the following:

1. He's anti-choice.
2. He's flipped flopped on a number of key legislative proposals (tax cuts, making them permanent, torture, the GI bill, etc.) presumably to curry favor with conservatives.
3. He was involved in the Keating scandal.
4. He talks big about campaign finance reform, but takes a ton of PAC money and is closer to lobbyists than almost any other member of Congress (in fact, he's recently fired several of his key aides due to those connections).
5. He shows the same misguided view of foreign policy as did President Bush and the neo cons who got us into the current mess (he will continue the muscular "We'll bomb you if you don't do what we tell you to do" mentality that dominates the current administration). Like President Bush, he also can't seem to distinguish Al Queda, Hamas, Shia, and Shiite, and conflates all of them with 9/11.
6. If elected, he'd be the oldest President ever to serve office and he's had significant health issues.
7. He's shown signs of being a hot head and less than diplomatic, characteristics you do not want in a President.

It just seems to me we ought to focus on these shortcomings rather than try to attack his war record "because they did it to us"; ultimately, if the Democrats choose to attack McCain on his war record and what happened to him as a prisoner of war, I think it will backfire.

[TooBigaTent]

19. Your defense of the POS is sad, coming from a supposed Democrat.

1) He did lose five planes. Prove to me that that is not true. The only positive thing that can be said is that he did not duck Vietnam like Georgie. But he was still a piss-poor pilot who only got to fly because of connections.

2) His hot-dogging led to the plane behind him misfiring a rocket. If he was not a reckless asshole, the accident would not have happened.

3) There are as many accounts of his cowardice while captive as the propoganda about his "heroic" behavior.

4) I don't give a damn about the consequences he experienced in Vietnam. I am talking about the lack of consequences for his infidelity and despicable behavior toward his wife, his Keating crimes, and his constant lying throughout his political career (bought and paid for by his mistress/now-wife).

5) The fact that his ex-wife is "still friendly" is of no import. Abused women often act that way. And the terms trollop and c*** are used by McInsane in addressing his current one. And dump his crippled wife is exactly what he did. His fuck-toy was richer and he knew he could use her wealth and comnections to grease his path to power. So, he dumped the older model for one who could walk. Tell me that is not disgusting.

With the media in the pocket of the pukes, to take any ammunition out of your arsenal is simply stupid. Everything is a fair topic of attack. And every avenue had better be used or you will see the POS continuing Junior's reign. We cannot afford to leave ANY ammo unused.

Why do you want McCain to win / to fight with one hand tied behind your back?

[Ilsa]

25. I'll reconsider "swiftboating" if they try to do in Obama or Hillary

with it. I don't think it is reasonable to refer to theh poster as a "supposed" Democrat. It isn't as if maui2009 only defended, but offered better reasons to trash him.

[maui9002]

34. As I thought my post clearly indicated

it was not my purpose to defend McCain, but to defend the facts. And there are lots of arguments as to why McCain is not only the wrong choice but a potentially dangerous one to lead this country, but those "arguments" should not include lies, half truths, and misleading statements; especially when they involve the candidate's spouse.

[maui9002]

45. Just defending the facts, my fellow Democrat

Actually, I'm not a Democrat; I'm a registered Independent, so I can vote in the Republican primary in my state and try to support the progressive Republican vs. the conservative Republican because, in my district, the Democratic candidate usually runs unopposed in the primary or not at all. But make no mistake, I am a Democrat in values and on most policy. That being said, my responses to your last post.

1. My post said McCain was involved in five incidents; I take issue with your use of the word "lost/crashed" because it assumes the fault of the pilot, and I think it's wrong to fault a pilot for "losing" a plane he's shot down in while flying over enemy territory with lots of anti aircraft weapons. In fact, since you didn't answer the question the first time, I'll ask it again: Is it your opinion that all pilots who are shot down by enemy fire should be disrespected for that fact? In addition, according to Wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_and_military_career_of_John_McCain>, the five "crashes" include (i) engine quit while landing; plane ran off runway into Corpus Christi Bay and sank; (ii) collision with power lines while flying too low in Spain; but plane and McCain "emerged intact"; (iii) flameout that caused training jet to crash from which McCain safely ejected; (iv) plane destroyed while on flight deck of USS Forrestal with McCain in it but not flying; and (v) shot down over Hanoi by enemy anti aircraft missile. While you can take issue with his flying record, and even bring up his apparent tendency to be reckless, the facts don't support your statement that he was responsible for crashing or losing five planes or that he was responsible for killing anyone on the Forrestal.

2. With respect to the Forrestal accident, please read the following post from a poster at <http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-9883.html>; the thread discusses the "wet start" theory (more a wild ass rumor than a theory IMHO).

"I was on flight deck the morning of the fire and i can tell you that the story is a bunch of crap.McCain's skyhawk was on the port side facing outboard, nothing but sea behind him. the zunni came from a f4 phantom parked on the starboard, the saftey pins were removed,as was common practice before launch,and was change after the incident. an electrical malfunction triggered the firing control. alot of good people died ,and it seems a shame some jerk can make up a political story to stir the sad memories. thanks for letting me vent."

If you're still not convinced, try watching the video of the accident on You Tube <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chuiyXQKw3I>. If you watch the video, you'll notice McCain's plane is situated so the tail of his plane is facing the ocean, which makes it kind of hard to explain how a wet start (which involves starting a flame behind the plane) caused a rocket to ignite in front of his plane (since there was nothing behind his plane but ocean and sky). If you're still not convinced, pick up and read "Sailors to the End" which has a good explanation of what happened that awful day.

In short, to assert "if he was not a reckless asshole, the accident would not have happened" is just plain nonsense. By the way, this story has been debunked several times on DU, but it keeps coming up because McCain is the Republican nominee.

3. No, there aren't as many accounts of his cowardice as there are accounts of his bravery in captivity. A few websites take a dim view of McCain's time in prison, but the stories from more legitimate sources, including prisoners who spent the time with him, are far more prevalent and believeable. The only legitimate counter to the John McCain is a hero story is that many other prisoners with him suffered as much or more than he did and aren't not using that situation for political advantage. But the evidence is overwhelming that he demonstrated resilience and bravery rather than cowardice during his time in captivity. In my view, that doesn't qualify him for political office, much less the Presidency, but I disagree that a misleading account of his captivity ought to be used in opposition to his candidacy.

4. In your original post, you said "He is considered a hero because he was shot down; i.e., because he was a failure as a pilot." Then you immediately followed with "But his connections through his daddy and his drug-addict mistress (Barbie Stepford) kept him from suffering any consequences for his actions." I assumed the actions you were referring to were the actions you had described immediately before the sentence starting with "But....", the insinuation being that his father somehow prevented his torture, which isn't true. Regarding the circumstances of his divorce, his involvement in the Keating scandal, and the other issues you raise, those items are well known here in Arizona and the voters (most of whom are--or at least were) keep voting for him; I never have, not because of those issues, but the other shortcomings I've mentioned.

5. Nonsense. I've seen interviews with McCain's ex-wife and unless you've got some evidence to back up your assertion that she's an abused woman, I think you're just being gratuitously unfair. And I guess I'm just a bit more forgiving of people who fuck up their marriages (and by the way, McCain generally has not been one of those insufferable Republicans who preaches family values while not following them); he came back from the war after serving more than 5 years in captivity, had difficulties with his marriage, and then, more than five years later, met a much younger woman from a wealthy family, divorced his wife, and married the much younger woman. Unfortunate, yes. Unseemly, yep. Disgusting? I just don't go that far. But the real issue is whether this behavior should be part of a political campaign (and whether calling his wife a fuck toy is appropriate). And you and I just appear to have different views on that subject.

Regarding your final comments, I'm not sure you really believe all the stuff you wrote, or you just think it's fair game to take liberty with the facts because any avenue is appropriate if it involves beating the Republican nominee. If it's the former, I've done all I can to provide sources for what I believe are the facts; if it's the latter, then all I can say is that I think your defense of your position is sad, coming from a supposed Democrat. :)

[Ilsa]

20. Thank you! This is the tack that I like. We have political

reasons to fight against him. I don't see the need to argue, swiftboat style, over his Navy performance records. I like the way you delineated his failures.

[Dogtown]

6. All the facts we're likely to find

on McCain is in Wikipedia, and your specifics aren't really addressed.

I don't really care about those events, flying a plane and presiding over a country are pretty dissimilar.

The here and now of McCain is much more important, and it's clear to all who care to see that he's a liar, an opportunist, and a tool of the corporations.

*I* hate to see the swiftboat game. In addition to the attack on Kerry, we lost a beloved senator here in Georgia due to that campaign. Conversely, the known facts about bush's cowardice and lawbreaking served us not.

It's a waste of effort and makes us appear unoriginal and trite.

[cynatnite]

7. It won't...

His flip-flopping record to date, his support of the war and him being a bush third term is the best way to go to making sure he doesn't win.

[Ilsa]

21. His past politics are the "best way to go" in defeating him! nt

[DinahMoeHum]

8. Here's an opinion, from a fellow POW from the Hanoi prisons.

Link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=361019&mesg_id=361019

Not about "swift-boating", not about mental states, etc. Just an opinion. Butler makes his case strictly upon personal observation and McCain's well-known reputation for being a hot-head.

:evilfrown:

[Ilsa]

22. Thank you, I'll check that out. It means alot to me to hear

reports from people who were around him during this time.

I knew a man who served on the Forrestal when they had the fire, but I haven't had contact with him in 20 years.

[Stinky The Clown]

38. Kerry's swiftboaters were in-country contemporaries of his, too ......

.... be as wary of those stories as anything else you hear abut him.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. Ok, here's some sources

This one is a pdf file and contains the accusations you talked about and more. Some citations and quotations, but not fully cited:

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/mccain_post_card_word%5B1%5D.pdf

This is a report by Sydney Schanberg, the reporter upon which "The Killing Fields" is based:

http://www.vvof.org/mccain_hides.htm

A report from MSNBC on the release of McCain's military records:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24518450/

This article has links to citations, including interviews with McCain himself where he said he tried to commit suicide twice:

http://www.forandagainst.com/articles/McCain_s_Military_Record_Shows_He_Is_Unfit_To_Be_President

[Ilsa]

23. Thanks. I kept coming up with undependable websites

when I was trying to research it. Too much hearsay.

[DinahMoeHum]

39. Be very very careful about "Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain"

The media relations guy is Ted Sampley, who some say is a con-artist. Google his name - there's a shitload of stuff about him.

Did you know that back in 2004, he had a site called "Vietnam Veterams Against John Kerry"???
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.org/

Now, he is all over the map again, this time purporting to be against John McCain:
http://www.usvetdsp.com/

He is a true believer in the notion that there were POWs/MIAs still held beyond their release in 1973 against their will.

Tread very VERY carefully with this guy.

Then again, we can use him as a useful idiot - and have him do the dirty work that the "Swift Boat Veterans" did in 2004. Payback, and all that jazz.


:evilfrown:

[Bigmack]

41. I send people to VVAMc every chance I get...

I tell them if they believed one goddam thing Sampley and those others said about Kerry in 2004, they better believe some of the shit Sampley has to say about McSame.

I tell them that I don't believe anything on the site with the exception of Col. Dave Hackworth's piece.

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_hacker_2.htm

"None of the awards, less the DFC, were for heroism over the battlefield where he spent no more than 20 hours. Two Naval officers described the awards as "boilerplate" and "part of an SOP medal package given to repatriated (Vietnamera) POWs."

McCain's Silver Star narrative for the period 27 October 1967 the day after he was shot down to 8 December 1968 reads: "His captors… subjected him to extreme mental and physical cruelties in an attempt to obtain military information and false confessions for propaganda purposes. Through his resistance to those brutalities, he contributed significantly towards the eventual abandonment…" of such harsh treatment by the North Vietnamese.

Yet in McCain's own words just four days after being captured, he admits he violated the U.S. Code of Conduct by telling his captors "O.K, I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital."

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

47. I didn't have the time I really wanted to have to do it

You do have to wade through quite a bit of muck to find anything with sources. Sorry they were mostly secondary sources, though I feel that the interviews with McCain himself are primary sources when found in their entirety. You are correct that we MUST take the time to find primary sources to back up anything we say about McCain. The best would be video or audio tapes of McCain, I think. Any more, few people take the time to actually read through anything longer than a paragraph, but many will be willing to watch a video or listen to an audio file.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

10. Fact: He's an Asshole....

Look it up!

[Ilsa]

32. LOL.Yeah, I've already heard that and totally agree! nt

[Bluebear]

12. He graduated 790 out of 795 at the Naval Academy.

"...he was known as a rowdy and insubordinate student, whose demerits for his antics detracted from his otherwise respectable grades. He graduated in 1958, toward the bottom of his class (790 out of 795), but nevertheless was accepted to train as a naval aviator."

http://law.jrank.org/pages/8496/McCain-John-Sidney.html


Evidently not the sharpest knife that came with the set.

[Disturbed]

14. There are many reasons that McLame should not be Pres.

Most people don't get into a lot of facts. It's a simple perception that is usually
a deciding factor regarding voting for a political candidate. Bringing up his Vietnam situation is
not helpful. It is a mistake that will backfire.

Here is a simple perception.

[Bluebear]

27. Well that's fine, & I have suggested using that photo for a long time.

But his scholastic record isn't all that esoteric. He was not an achiever.

[Ilsa]

29. We can use that. It is quantifiable and not speculation. nt

[gratuitous]

13. His environmental voting record is zero

He doesn't vote against his fatcat bankrollers even by mistake.

[Ilsa]

30. That is useful also. Anything to do with his record in the Senate is fair game. nt

[alfredo]

24. Try this page

http://www.mccainpedia.org/index.php/Main_Page

[MzNov]

28. Fact: In 2000, he said he would be too old to run for President in 2008 !!

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/05/23/in-2000-mccain-joked-that-hed-be-too-old-to-run-for-president-in-2008/

I respectfully disagree that we should not dig up dirt on this guy. He's already fighting dirty dirty filthy and it will get much worse. Democrats are not so pure that they can sit back and let Obama get swiftboated by this old creep. I, for one, want to fight. It's worth it!!

Let the facts come out as they will.



McCane

[Ilsa]

33. I'm okay with facts coming out. It's speculation that can't be proven

that bothers me. My concern is that Undecideds will decide that it is an attack on the patriotism of a "war hero".

[MzNov]

37. the same goes for speculation about Obama

which McCane is promoting! The undecideds are going for Obama. We should not worry about what people will think. They're going to think it anyway.

[elehhhhna]

35. he was born before the nvention of the ballpoint pen and the electron microscope...

1936 Bell Labs invents the voice recognition machine.
Samuel Colt patents the Colt revolver.

1937 Chester F. Carlson invents the photocopier.
The first jet engine is built.

1938 The ballpoint pen invented by Ladislo Biro.
Strobe lighting invented.
Roy J. Plunkett invented tetrafluoroethylene polymers or Teflon.
Nescafe or freeze-dried coffee invented.
The first working turboprop engine.

1939 Igor Sikorsky invents the first successful helicopter.
The electron microscope

[Ilsa]

36. Here is a good link on something I think we can use, and I got

from the thread referenced by DinahMoeHum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=361019&mesg_id=361036

John McCain has 100% disability due to his POW status yet...... the Iraq/Afghan US troops, many who have been deployed 5-5 times and many who have been severely wounded both mentally and physically and unable to work or gainful employment have to fight to get a 10% disability?????

John McCain is called a "triple dipper," on the government payroll. He receives government checks for his disability - 100%, another check from Social Security, and another as Senator.......Pretty damn good for being declared 100% disabled. All the time fighting against similar benefits for the "volunteer army,??" Hero - bs.

[Stinky The Clown]

40. I understand your sentiment. I disagree with it, but I understand. So, here's some other stuff .....

His wife is an ambitious, rich, Republican heiress. She courted and wooed him. He was drifting. She wanted to be president (vicariously). So she married him and pushed him into politics. Like any other politician with a rich wife, money flows through the family in a very surreptitious fashion, making tracing it very difficult (hence her unreleased tax records).

He was four or five from the bottom of his class at Annapolis. And a troublemaker.

He did, in fact, lose five airplanes. He did, in fact, have some impact on the Forrestal fire. He was, in fact, a shitty pilot. I do not think we should go down this path. His reputation as a hero is too entrenched to be diminished by talking about this; we would lose, he would win.

His hero status is earned and bone fide. He was offered an easy way out of POW status. He chose to reject that unless those who had been there longer were released first. That's real and unassailable and we would do best to stay far away from it. Many stories have circulated about his actual (allegedly very shitty) character while in prison. Some of the stories could even be true. It is not even worth investigating. None matter. He is fully and everlastingly inoculated against any smear arising from this.

He is forever a part of the Keating Five. He has been involved in other shady shit along similar lines. He has pushed campaign reform, all the while running with guys like Charlie Black. Witness the recent spate of cockroaches leaving his campaign when the lights got turned on. Any and all of this is fair game. Any and all of it can (and in my view **should**) be fought with the Lyndon Johnson Gambit: "Call the son of a bitch a pig fucker and make him deny it." (http://newzblog.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/pig-fucking/ some allege this story **is** true, the link's statement to the contrary notwithstanding)

There is much we can go after McCain for. I suggest his Viet Nam War record is not one of them. It gets us **nothing** because his whole career has immunized him from that sort of attack. Facts don't matter here. Only perceptions. And he is a 'war hero' to a greater extent than that to which he is a 'maverick'. In fact, I think the 'maverick' thing could be burst and if it is, we destroy him. Which I want to see done.

In closing, lest you think I have as much in the way of scruples as you, be disabused of that. I am perfectly happy to wallow in mud and fling shit flung once at me if it means winning the white house and both houses of Congress. I have no political scruples. My caution to stay away from McCain's military record is not a matter of honor. It is pure pragmatism. We do it and we lose. Its that simple.

[windoe]

42. His voting record for veterans is interesting...

Seems he has not supported them, according to this link. I think calling attention to this would not be swiftboating.
http://www.votesmart.org/votingcategory.php?can_id=53270
http://www.votesmart.org

[DinahMoeHum]

43. Got another one for you. . .cross-posted from DailyKos

Link:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/23/171233/580/267/521464

If you somehow get in touch with this person - more power to ya. Just another shining example of McCain's spoiled-brat attitude and sense of entitlement (where have we heard that before?)

:evilfrown:

[BeHereNow]

46. Shouldn't this thread be in GDP???

Damn, I am sick of the cross over@!
BHN