Sir, No Sir! The soldiers who refused to be part of mass murder in Vietnam

[JackRiddler]

One of the great documentaries of our time - focusing on how the genocidal war in Vietnam came to a standstill thanks to the resistance of the American soldiers themselves. A remedy for the Rambo myth. Order it today!

These are the veterans we should honor, above all others: The ones who risked themselves for the right reason.

Interview with director:

http://www.motherjones.com/news/qa/2005/09/david_zeiger.html

(snip)

MJ: Did it take any effort to get the veterans to open up—the public conception of the Vietnam vet is of a man too pained to talk openly about his experiences.

DZ: Yeah, that’s a very big myth. In this situation that was not at all a problem. These are people whose stories had been suppressed and ignored since the war. They knew that their story was a story of the Vietnam War that needed to be told. For most of these veterans, it was more a matter of finally being able to tell their story, stories the overall zeitgeist was against being told. It was not a matter of reluctance.

(snip)

MJ: You mentioned that you were a civilian organizer at Fort Hood during the Vietnam War. At that time, was the civilian public widely aware of the GI Movement?

DZ: The evidence suggests that they were. As you see in the film, there were CBS Nightly News stories about the GI Movement. There is a segment in the film of Walter Cronkite talking about the GI underground press. In the state of Texas, where there was a very large anti-war movement in Austin and Houston, and the center of the Texas movement for a time was at Fort Hood. The armed forces demonstrations were major events for the whole state. I think people knew generally that there was opposition in the military, but they didn’t know the details or how widespread it was. But it was certainly more prominent than people remember it. It has been thoroughly wiped out of any histories of the war.

MJ: How visible was the GI Movement amongst American soldiers in Southeast Asia? Were they aware that their fellow soldiers were protesting the war on bases abroad and in the States?

DZ: Yes. The GI anti-war press was everywhere. Just about every base in the world had an underground paper. Vietnam GI was the first GI paper. It was sent directly to Vietnam from the U.S. in press runs of 5,000 and they were getting spread all over the place because they’d be handed from person to person. Awareness of the GI Movement was at different levels but it was still very widespread.

[shance]

1. Thanks Jack - so glad you posted. Incredible film.

Hope you're having a great weekend.

xoxo

[JackRiddler]

2. Likewise.

[JackRiddler]

3. Kick for the heroes.

[JackRiddler]

4. & kick so that more people will SEE THIS MOVIE!!!

[chelaque liberal]

5. Watch it on-line

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5459669199356402963

[ronnie624]

40. Thanks. Very moving. Excellent. n/t

[Time for change]

6. That is so heartening

I was never aware of a widely based anti-Vietnam War movement within the military. This needs much more visibility.

[JackRiddler]

7. Our stolen history.

[JackRiddler]

8. Come on - it's not my post, it's this movie that should be GREATEST EVERY DAY

[Time for change]

11. .

:kick:

[lonestarnot]

9. K & R

[Selatius]

10. At 6:08 you see the sign, "OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW IS FREEDOM" I have one thing to say to that.

FUCK IT!

[T Monk]

12. k&r for truth

[IndyOp]

13. You can get this from Netflix. If you do get the DVD, watch the extras!

The interviews in the "extras" section are really incredible. Just as good as the movie. I know the director/producers had to die several times over having to leave the material in the extras out of the main film.

:thumbsup:

[JackRiddler]

14. Yes, the extras are as good as the movie. thanks for mentioning that.

[UTUSN]

15. & let Colin POWELL be forever remembered for the COLLABORATER he has always been!1 n/t

[JohnyCanuck]

23. Maj. Powell 's Vietnam test

Behind Colin Powell's Legend -- My Lai

By Robert Parry & Norman Solomon

SNIP

By late 1968, Powell had jumped over more senior officers into the important post of G-3, chief of operations for division commander, Maj. Gen. Charles Gettys, at Chu Lai. Powell had been "picked by Gen. Gettys over several lieutenant colonels for the G-3 job itself, making me the only major filling that role in Vietnam," Powell wrote in his memoirs.

But a test soon confronted Maj. Powell. A letter had been written by a young specialist fourth class named Tom Glen, who had served in an Americal mortar platoon and was nearing the end of his Army tour. In a letter to Gen. Creighton Abrams, the commander of all U.S. forces in Vietnam, Glen accused the Americal division of routine brutality against civilians. Glen's letter was forwarded to the Americal headquarters at Chu Lai where it landed on Maj. Powell's desk.

"The average GI's attitude toward and treatment of the Vietnamese people all too often is a complete denial of all our country is attempting to accomplish in the realm of human relations," Glen wrote. "Far beyond merely dismissing the Vietnamese as 'slopes' or 'gooks,' in both deed and thought, too many American soldiers seem to discount their very humanity; and with this attitude inflict upon the Vietnamese citizenry humiliations, both psychological and physical, that can have only a debilitating effect upon efforts to unify the people in loyalty to the Saigon government, particularly when such acts are carried out at unit levels and thereby acquire the aspect of sanctioned policy."

Glen's letter contended that many Vietnamese were fleeing from Americans who "for mere pleasure, fire indiscriminately into Vietnamese homes and without provocation or justification shoot at the people themselves." Gratuitous cruelty was also being inflicted on Viet Cong suspects, Glen reported.

SNIP

Powell reported back exactly what his superiors wanted to hear. "In direct refutation of this (Glen's) portrayal," Powell concluded, "is the fact that relations between Americal soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent."

http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/colin3.html

[JackRiddler]

28. Let's be plain about it - loyalty to brass no matter what the crime is...

the formula for getting ahead in the military.

Covering up My Lai and especially the fact that there were other My Lais and that they were the logical extension of a criminal, genocidal war was what made Colin Powell and let him rise to his later station.

It's always been like this: The good guys do not win.

For upholding the only oath that matters, the one to the Constitution, the likes of Smedley Butler and Scott Ritter are attacked and subject to character assassination.

The best example of how to become a supreme commander was the suppression of the Bonus Army. Tens of thousands of impoverished and unemployed World War I veterans marched to Washington during the Great Depression in 1931 and camped out there to demand the benefits to which they were entitled under the law. Hoover had them attacked and driven out of the capital by the federal military using tanks, a violation of the law that prevents such use of federal troops. Think on that. Few stories are as paradigmatic of what this institution really is meant to defend, and of the value of veterans to the brass.

The military commanders of the Bonus Army attack? Eisenhower, MacArthur, Patton, Bradley. Thus did they prove themselves. If they had done the right thing, refused the illegal order, protected the Constitution and defended the people, you would not know them today as the top commanders of the US military that they later became.

[JohnyCanuck]

29. You make an excellent point. n/t

[klook]

16. This is a must-see

Thanks for reminding everyone.

It's so important for people to realize that a) there was a significant portion of the American military that was opposed to the Vietnam War, and b) a significant number of those objectors were volunteers, not just draftees.

[mopinko]

17. knr for the reel story

of the real heroes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. Sadly, Dave Kline, who was in Sir, No Sir, and worked tirelessly as a vet for peace died last fall

R.I.P. Dave.

[defendandprotect]

19. K&R ---

[janet118]

20. I just caught some of this movie on cable

It is amazing how the history of the sixties has been re-written. It was the soldiers who ended the Vietnam War when they joined with the anti-war movement. I especially love how the film debunks the "spitting on vets" meme. Remember, because of the draft, those vets were classmates and friends with those in the anti-war movement.

That is why we will not have a draft now. We will work our National Guard and military to the bone and fill their support needs with private contractors. If a draft were re-instituted today, this ugly, little war in Iraq would be over tomorrow.

[Mountainman]

34. History is written by people who never lived it. You are writing history right now with your post.

You really don't know what the truth is because you were not there. You chose to believe something and the more people agree with that something the more that something becomes the recorded history. It may be true and it may not. You have a preconceived notion or a paradigm that you see this through and what ever supports that notion or paradigm you accept.

I say this because I was there. I have read so much here at DU written by those who were not there and it is true that what the majority accepts becomes what the majority thinks is the truth whether it is or not.

Even the stories by the witnesses to the facts get discounted because they don't fit your paradigm.

Many vets were against the war as was I but we don't fit into some neat history you can accept. Part of what you beleive is the truth and part of it isn't.

[tuckessee]

35. How do you know?

Were you there for everything? From 1956 to 1975? Had access to all experiences on all levels of command? That's a lot of tours, dude, you must have some serious PTSD.

Vietnam was a very different war during the latter stages of US involvement than the early ones.

Drug use, insubordination, racial tension and fragging were practically non-existent in 65-68 but by 71 & 72 it was quite a problem.

You can not deny that no matter how hard you try.

[Mountainman]

36. The question should be how do you know.

"Drug use, insubordination, racial tension and fragging were practically non-existent in 65-68 but by 71 & 72 it was quite a problem."

[tuckessee]

38. Study.

It's all we can do with history.

I've collected oral histories, read books, manuscripts, letters, gov't documents, perused contemporary as well as post-war literature of all forms.

Basically, it's the same method used by historians and buffs of all historical eras.

For example, today there are people who are knowledgable about the American Civil War even though they didn't fight in it.

Using your standard, all is lost once the last old fart croaks. No one alive has the right to have an opinion or state a fact about the American Revolution because there are no living witnesses.

I hope you don't have any opinions about WW2 or you better prove you earned your Ruptured Duck.

[Mountainman]

39. I never said you don't have a right to have an opinion.

But what you state as fact you can never really be sure is fact. It is what you can accept as fact.

That has been a hard lesson for me to learn. I've heard "facts" stated on this board that I have personal knowledge they are not true, yet the majority can shout a person like me down because it is peer group acceptance that wins out in the end.

The history of the Vietnam war and probably every other war in our history is written by people who never lived it and I'm sure there are many truths in it and more than likely some facts that are not true.

[Mountainman]

37. Listen up fool!

In Saigon in 1967 I walked along the Cholon canal with guys who had been using opium for years. We smoked pot that was in Parliament cigarette wrappers.

One of the guys in my platoon was almost killed by another guy because the first guy called him a crazy Mexican.

Us white troops got into fights with Blacks regularly over music being played on our juke box.

This was in 1967.

I know a hell of a lot more than that but it doesn't matter.

[Echo In Light]

21. K&R

[NNN0LHI]

22. I remember watching film of an entire US platoon refusing orders to advance in Vietnam

That was on the 5:00 news.

The war ended soon after that.

Don

[JackRiddler]

24. Just imagine it! And look at the reaction it inspired...

Two remarkable things about the incident you describe, besides the fact of mutiny:

It was on film. (Imagine how widespread.)

It was on television. (So widespread the media couldn't spin it.)

If that doesn't say the army will no longer fight for madness and murder, what does?

This was the key success of the antiwar movement; not at home, but with the military itself.

You would hope the power elite would react by seeking a path other than war. But instead, this mutiny of the troops is why, after Vietnam:

- no draft, volunteer army with "career incentives"

- 30-year shift to remote-control killing ("the revolution in military affairs") and overkill ("shock and awe")

- cultural conservatism & neoliberal economics aiming at the people as the enemy

- divide and conquer: rambo mythology of the disaffected veteran spat upon by hippies

- divide and conquer: mythology that war opposition was solely middle class phenomenon

- gradual rehabilitation of war through PR actions dressed as great victories (Grenada, Libya bombing)

- generational propaganda: the Sixties were uncool, icky, drug-deluded, diseased, full of unwashed hippies with unruly beards and hairy-armpit women in the Manson family (ps - i love hairy armpits, no misunderstandings please); example: Forrest Gump! The key here was to re-cast the youth movement of the Sixties as OLD PEOPLE (even while they were still in their 30s), a weakness to which all youth movements are susceptible (since people age).

- Roll-out of the new way of war and propaganda in the '91 Gulf war, a coming-out party

- tighter restrictions on press in war, integrated overall media/disinformation strategy, leading to "embedding," punctuated by attacks on unruly press ("accidental" Al Jazeera hits in Kabul and Baghdad)

- total homefront perception management, Pentagon shills as "analysts"

- recruitment propaganda and war entertainment on TV slings less and less bullshit about patriotism and values and instead focuses on the sensation, excitement, thrill-in-the-moment rock and roll coolness of war or "counterterror," with important trend within that to series full of heavily-armed babes. (Pentagon sends more and more tentacles into Hollywood.) Related: certain trends in video games.

- massive use of the politics of fear (9/11 exploitation, "war on terror," homeland panic, WMD, Iraq a direct threat to strike US which was never claimed of Vietnam)

- more complete and yet more subtle surveillance and control of opposition and, for that matter, everything: panopticon

- turn to outright mercenary armies, outsourced military and intel; next step, especially if recruitment drops off: prisoners to be warriors

- (re-)discovery of liberal humanitarian imperialism, the modern "white man's burden" ideology aimed especially at a type of people who might post on this board. Examples: "Save Darfur," bomb Belgrade, if only we'd invaded Rwanda (we did), if only we'd invaded Saudi Arabia instead of Iraq, etc. A civil war in Sudan is a genocide calling for intervention, the long-planned genocidal destruction of Iraq as a nation with millions being killed as a direct consequence of US actions is a "civil war" that "we" should not have "stumbled into" out of "incompetence."

- Also interesting is the chickenhawk phenomenon - you simply never had this before, America's leading warmongers were always former military commanders, preferably of the kind who had massacred Indians or at least broken up the Bonus Army. Related to this, the failure of the "draft-dodger" meme to stick to Clinton or GW Bush.

- War is television.

- Every day life is war.

- War is in a permanent nowhere.

[yardwork]

25. Very interesting. Thank you for posting this!

k&r

[JackRiddler]

26. you're welcome

[crickets]

27. Kick

[JackRiddler]

30. Thanks

[Bozita]

31. Saw it on Sundance Channel last month. I give it 5 stars.

Keep your eye on Sundance. They'll run it again.

http://www.sundancechannel.com/films/500200032


Sir! No Sir!
200584 minsColor and B&W
David Zeiger, Director

While the Vietnam era is remembered for protests on campus and in the streets, less well documented is the resistance movement against the war within the military. Documentary filmmaker David Zeiger recounts the story of the G.I. anti-war movement and the struggles by demoralized men and women in uniform to challenge their government's policies in South East Asia. Interviews with activist veterans and archive film clips provide a sobering reminder of a long-neglected piece of American history. "Smart, timely" - The New York Times.
TAGS: Court Martial, Military, Peace, Protest, Soldier, Documentary, English (en), Feature Film, Vietnam, War

Violence, Adult Language, Adult Content

[tuckessee]

32. kick n/t

[JackRiddler]

33. So has anyone seen this great work as a result of this thread yet? Come on!