The Satan Test..

[Fumesucker]

I wonder how many of you who are not bothered by "In God We Trust" on the money and "One Nation Under God" in the Pledge would find it bothersome if the word "God" was replaced by "Satan".

"In Satan We Trust"

"One Nation, Under Satan"

I read this in the article about the California Ford dealership that was telling non Christians to "sit down and shut up" and thought it was a fairly decent idea.

It's just words, right?

[Goblinmonger]

1. Anyone bothered by the Satan thing

has never read Paradise Lost, because Satan comes across as pretty understandable, there.

But as to your point, of course people would bust a blood vessel over that because it is OTHER people's religions that suck, not their own.

[Fumesucker]

2. I have a couple of fundie relatives..

And it's a sometime source of amusement to me to point out that if God did not want Satan to be in business then Satan would not exist.

Listening to them try to deny that truth is great fun.. They tie themselves into flesh colored pretzels..

I love them dearly but logic is not their forte'.

And you're right about Milton's take on Satan.

[Orrex]

4. God doesn't want Satan to exist per se

But God values our free will above all else, even above our salvation. Without Satan, the figurehead of the "other" choice, then the choice is meaningless and of no value. Salvation itself would likewise be stripped of all worth, if we had no choice but to be Saved.

By allowing the existence of an alternative choice, God maintains our primary freedom, and this ability to choose is what separates us from lesser animals.


At least, that's the theory. As far as I'm concerned, you might as well say that Satan has ten thousand hit points and always makes all of his saving throws. It's all just mythology--fun to speculate about, but not much of a guidebook for reality.

[Goblinmonger]

7. Way off topic,

but this weekend we were at Lowes and my wife asked me if I saw that guy putting lumber in his car. She said he had "like 10 ft boards" and he just kept putting them into his trunk--she didn't think it was possible to fit it all in his car. I told her it must be a "Car of Holding" and starting laughing my ass off. She looked at me like I was on crack.

[Fumesucker]

10. I like your unicorns..

But only one of them is (slightly) pink, and neither are invisible. :)

[Goblinmonger]

16. Have you seen the Charlie the Unicorn deal.

If not, check it out on YouTube. It's hilarious.

[Orrex]

13. LOL! Geek-jokes like that occasionally creep into my speech, I admit

They're funny, but only to a very specific audience!

:rofl:

[comtec]

17. I swear my old Geo metro used TARDIS technology

that thing had far too much leg and head room inside to be believed!

[patrice]

21. Was it blue? nt

[comtec]

22. yup

with 3 hamsters on crack under the hood :)

And it made this odd whoosh sound whenever I started to take off...er.. driver away...

[uberllama42]

42. I find that D&D references are usually ill-advised

Except among the guys I used to play with in high school. In my experience, the only reactions worse than those of the people who don't know what I'm talking about are from people who do know.

[patrice]

3. If "God" is all powerful, how can Satan do anything against "his" Will?

This is not to say that bad is good, or even at least okay, but to point out the inadequacy of these concepts "God" "Satan". What were these things before we made up these words?

[Ferd Berfle]

12. Cuz God wants him to?

I've never figured that out either.

I guess willful ignorance is what Faith is all about. Makes for good republicans too

[patrice]

18. That willful ignorance is based on the assumption that words are the same thing as that which

words, actually, only refer to. Thus people act as though "God" is conceptually equivalent to the creator of the multiverse.

One of the things I used to say to demonstrate limitations of language (to my highschool students) was to say "There are no absolutes" (which is an absolute statement in itself: no ifs, ands, buts, no qualifications, nor conditional terms of any kind, just a simple absolute statement 'there are no absolutes'. This is a contradiction in form.)

There are no absolutes and that statement is so true that not even it is an absolute, i.e. that statement is so true that not even it is absolutely true.

Obviously, there are things that cannot be said, nor described, but we pretend that we do almost every time we open our mouths.

Language is NOT the same thing as the phenomenal world to which language ONLY refers (and somewhat imperfectly at that).

[timtom]

27. I see you are no stranger to general semantics

and it's red-headed step-child, NLP.

[patrice]

34. I had a brief affair with Absurdist literature and Deconstruction when I was young. NLP? nt

[timtom]

38. NLP

neuro-linguistic programming. Spiritually related, if you will, to general semantics.

[patrice]

40. I would have been oriented toward NLP thru (Chomsky-ian) Transformational Grammar also in my

undergraduate Literature years.

I also taught Advanced Placement Psychology, because my first major in college had been Psychology, so I ended up with enough hours for a certification (I used to, and still do, love grazing in PsycLit or PsycInfo, but it's been a while), and as a teacher I maintained an orientation from the perspective of the biological bases of behavior throughout the school year (8 of them) not only in order to keep the whole thing from going tooooooo loosy-goosey with those teenagers, but also because I consider the physical phenomenology of human existence much more interesting than almost anything else about human behavior and mental processes.

[ET Awful]

14. Along that same line of reasoning . . . if "God" is all powerful, then why does he require

the sacrifice of his only "son" to earn forgiveness for mankind? If he's all powerful, shouldn't he be able to forgive all on his own without any intermediary?

[patrice]

19. Their answer to that one has something to do with a "test", which doesn't

hold water either, because "God knows all", so what's to test? "He" already "knows" what we're going to do. Now if the answer to the "test" has to do with us, does getting it "right" or "wrong" make any difference? What does it change? And what is "right" and "wrong" anyway, since, as I observed upthread, "god" is all powerful.

From the little bit that I have read of the Bhagavad Gita, I think Hindus have a much more complete conceptualization of this stuff.

[TlalocW]

24. I've never fully understood the religiously insane talk about...

The final battle between good and evil, referring to Armageddon, that they all salivate about. If God is all powerful, and I've never seen or read a depiction of Satan where he was made out to be an idiot, then Satan has to know he's going to lose. Plus, a lot of the ministers go crazy and talk about the armies of either side meaning a battle between angels and demons. Again, why? It sounds so comic-bookish.

TlalocW

[Wizard777]

30. Pride goes before the fall. War was made in Heaven and that war isn't over.

I guess that's why Republicans believe war is a Holy thing to be worshiped. But any way. The war in Heaven actually comes from Zoroastrianism. The battle between light (good) and darkness (evil). Actually Satan is kind of an idiot. This is why. God is Ahura Mazda (Wise Lord)and Satan is Ahriman (the destroyer.) Ahura Mazda has the Zohar (Archangels) and Ahriman has the Angra Mainyu (evil spirits/demons.) Chief amongst the Angra Mainyu are the Druj (The deceivers/lying spirits.)They were created when Ahriman destroyed the truth. Ahriman surrounds himself with the Druj. They are arch demons. All of evil begins with a deception. It is the Druj that deceive him into believing he can defeat Ahura Mazda and claim the eternal throne. In the end it will be revealed that Ahriman has deceived and destroyed none more so than himself. We believe all will be saved. Even Ahriman. Think of it like this. God has asserted a claim to the throne of eternity. Right now He is proving to all of creation that he is in deed a Wise and Omnipotent Lord worthy of the eternal throne and our worship.

I hope this has helped.

[Wizard777]

29. He can't do anything without God's permission.

[mitchum]

37. That's the same question that Epicurus asked...

and he never got a straight answer either

[Heather MC]

5. I don't think it's fair to say non-Christians, are aligned with satan.

Most of my non-Christian friend don't believe in Satan or God, so the Notion that they want to have an "allegiance with Satan is ridiculous. They just don't want someone trying to Force their BS (belief system) on them

Matt 10:14 says (paraphrasing) If after you have shared the Word, and it's not received, you shake the dust from your feet and move on.

You don't get angry, you don't point a finger of blame,You move one to the next person. Leave them to God to deal with as he sees fit. I think more Non-Christians could be won over, if we Christians bothered to Obey Gods Word and not force, push, or chastise people who don't believe.

I can't stand bible thumping religious people, as a Christian I find them to be completely embarrassing and miss the point of God's Message.

It's a message of love not condemnation. Christians who miss that simple message do far more damage to God's word, than those who simple don't believe at all.

[Goblinmonger]

8. I don't think that was the point of the OP

The point is that people who say "get over it" should have to deal with constant bombardment in mythology they don't believe it to really understand how silly it is to be told to "get over it."

[Ferd Berfle]

11. deleted

[comtec]

6. One more thing to blow fundy's minds...

Satan's job is to look over all the damned souls. He has to make sure they suffer everlasting.
Has anyone considered that satan is really god's right hand man?
He is SEEN as the epitome of all evil because of his job.
But, if you were god, wouldn't you want your MORE trusted person looking after the MOST evil, bad people in existence? not the WORST of the lot?

Hades is seen as a unpleasant god in greek mythology, lord of the underworld.
But it's Hades' job to make sure the good go to the Appalachian fields, and the bad go to tartarus.
He makes sure there is proper balance in the underworld.
and he enjoys wars, but hey, what god doesn't?

point being... what if we've been looking at this the wrong way?
The tester doesn't test us on thing's were going to pass easily, just on things we have failings at. stuff that will be a challenge for us to pass the great test (been reading alot of Honor Harrington, love those Graysons). Do we hate the tester or the test?
Or do we work to insure we pass the test the next time?

I would also point out that the devil, in his current form, did NOT exist until the dark ages, as a creation of THE CHURCH! you won't see any mention of him in the old testament or the new (non-king james).

[Goblinmonger]

9. I've had similar discussion re: Judas

Why do we damn Judas to hell when he did what had to be done? Without Judas, Christ would not have sacrificed his life. Seems like a bum rap to me.

[comtec]

15. esp. considering the new gospels of judas

mind you that could be his own kind of spin...
But seriously, why are there ONLY 4 gospels?
Jesus had TWELVE main groupies, and only TWO of the FOUR are by people who were ACTUALLY WITH HIM!

[patrice]

20. Within that frame, Satan = Justice. nt

[comtec]

23. i suppose so

but when you consider some of the evil tings that have escaped justice....

[patrice]

35. Leaky frame. nt

[timtom]

25. Actually, I believe "One Nation, Under Satan"

is more accurate than not.

And the Ford dealership was quite remiss in trying to tell non-Christians what to do.

And I have an issue with fiat money, so I don't care what the NWO puts on their stinking illegal currency.

[bryant69]

26. That's only an argument if you think that "God" and "Satan" are just words

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Fumesucker]

31. "God" and "Satan" are indeed just words..

As someone upthread cogently pointed out, the word is not the same as the thing which it represents.

[bryant69]

32. That gets us into a philosophical discussion

But we think in words - the words do represent the ideas behind them. Freedom is just a word as is the word Fuck, but if I say "Fuck Freedom" well, that creates a very ugly and unpleasent image or idea.

Bryant

[Fumesucker]

33. I for one do not think entirely in words..

A lot of what I do is more along the lines of visualization.. A "Sim" in my head, so to speak.

[bryant69]

43. OK

I think in words. Pretty much constantly. If I see "Satan Bless America" i get an immediate idea of what the thoughts behind those words are and it is disturbing.

Bryant

[patrice]

36. I don't think "they" are just words. I think people too often act as though they are, which,

to this old fallen Catholic, meets the definition of Blasphemy.

[Fumesucker]

39. A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet..

Of course they are just words..

And blasphemy is in the eye of the beholder.

[patrice]

44. Blasphemy is equating one's self with "God". People claim to know "God's" mind all of the time.

We can objectively state that knowing "God's" attitude/mind/feelings/will/thoughts toward _______________ is equating one's self with "God".

[Goblinmonger]

45. blasphemy presupposes the existence of "God."

If there is no god, then blasphemy is just a silly word.

[Fumesucker]

48. I think that everyone who is a believer

At some point makes the determination that God does not want this or does want that..

In other words all theists claim to know the mind of God at some point.

It's just much easier to spot when it someone else doing it then when you do it yourself.

[Goblinmonger]

46. You are assuming

that the idea behind those words is always the same as how you perceive it. If we look at the mythologies, I could find versions that make "God" look far worse than "Satan." Hell, Paradise Lost kind of makes that argument.

[Matariki]

28. Or "Goddess". That should poke at their sense of entitlement.

Or perhaps they should just be honest and change it to "Our White God"?

[Forkboy]

41. That would be cool and stuff. And let's put this guy's mug on the dollar bill too!

[Brewman_Jax]

47. Here's the real Satan