For those DUers who think illegal immigration isn't a crime

[CanonRay]

or is a "victimless" crime. I worked as a Social Security investigator, and this stuff happens constantly. This is all too commonplace. The effort to fix it, if it's fixable, is staggering.

TWO LIVES, ONE SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER

Like arriving home to see a broken window, Holli knew something was wrong when she pulled up the statement from her new 401(k) account and saw a stranger's name there. Under her name and account information, she found a second name: Paulino Rodriguez. But was it an accident, random vandalism or a serious crime? She opened the virtual door to her account and sorted through the broken glass. Her worst fears would soon be confirmed.

After some frantic research, Holli pieced together part of the story. Rodriguez, the 401(k) Web site revealed, lived in Escondido, Calif., about 90 minutes south of Holli’s home in Fountain Valley. He was a restaurant worker in an Escondido Burger King. This was no prank -- though Holli would soon feel like several government agencies, corporations and a criminal were having fun at her expense. She was a victim of something experts call Social Security number-only identity theft, generally committed by immigrants who don’t have the necessary credentials to work legally in the U.S.

(snip)

Rodriguez, according U.S. immigration officials, is a Mexican national with no right to work in the United States. But thanks in part to Holli’s Social Security number, he had found a decent life for his family in Escondido, which means "hidden" in Spanish. But that that life was safe only if no one found out he was sharing Holli's identity.

Complete article: http://redtape.msnbc.com/2008/05/two-lives-one-1.html#posts

[Tempest]

1. I wish an illegal would use my SS number

It would increase the amount of retirement income I get from SS since it won't be going to them.

[Blue Diadem]

4. Apparently it doesn't. I'd read the article earlier

and saw that their income doesn't show up on your SS statements and isn't included under your name.

edited to add this from article:

snip:

So it's possible -- in fact common -- that employees’ names and numbers don't match. When that happens, no one gets credit for the taxes paid by the worker. The money simply ends up in the U.S. Treasury. Since 1983, more than $500 billion in uncredited Social Security wages have been earned by so-called "no match" employees like Rodriguez. That hidden financial benefit for the government is one reason, Holli suspects, that agencies don't act more quickly on reports of SSN-only identity theft.

[CanonRay]

13. Actually, some times it DOES post.

If the names are accidently similar, the wages will post and then you have IRS coming after you as well. This is why legal Hispanics get hurt the worst by this. If an illegal with the name Trevino had used her number, all of the wages would have posted.

[Andy823]

16. That's right

When the government finds a SS number that does not match the name, they keep the money in another account, it does NOT go in the persons account who's name is on the SS card. The thing that really ticks me off is they know it's not the original person's name, they keep the money because it's not the original name, but the "DO NOT" notify the person who's name is on the SS card and tell them someone else is using their SS number!

[Critters2]

57. That doesn't happen. But you may be investigated by the IRS,

to find out why some wages were reported to the SSA, but not on your income tax return. This happened to a parishioner of mine. It was a nightmare.

[Tempest]

62. I wasn't really serious

It was tongue in cheek.

[Zywiec]

2. Do you like butter on yours? I do...

:popcorn:

[YOY]

8. Yummy!

n/t

[Winterblues]

3. Was it a crime when we illegally immigrated into California?

Or how about all the western states?

[Freddie Stubbs]

35. No

Illegal immigration is a civil offense, not a criminal one.

[michreject]

93. Identity theft is a criminal offense

not a civil offense.

[lumberjack_jeff]

99. "We?" n/t

[Winterblues]

110. Unless you are not American I mean "we"

How did America get California anyway? :shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

111. I find it intriguing that the actions of present day illegal immigrants

are justified because of our collective culpability over the actions of someone else's ancestors.

America got California because Americans moved there. Exactly the same way that the Navajo got New Mexico and Arizona from the Anasazi and Hopi.

My family immigrated around the turn of the last century. They weren't here for the westward expansion.

Those who were born here, or who were naturalized, are US citizens. They have my allegiance and sympathy. Everyone else here is either a guest or a party crasher.

[Winterblues]

124. Sort of like how Americans have "moved" to Iraq...

We didn't just move there we used US Military to pacify the people and take their land...Today's immigrants don't try and steal our land they just want to be a part of us..

[lumberjack_jeff]

125. A small percentage of illegal immigrants

really want to become naturalized. This is simply an opportunity to make more money to buy a better house back home. Last year, they sent $46 billion back home - this isn't the behavior of people who want to make a permanent life here.

They are investing their earnings in someone else's economy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/us/01immigration.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[Bluebear]

5. So not a thing happened to her credit, he just worked at Burger King for 20 years?

Yes, I can see the big emergency here. :crazy:

[CanonRay]

17. When it happens to you, you'll sing a different tune.

Believe me. I had a guy who had 30 people using his number. An ex-marine of Puerto Rican descent. One illegal bought a house under this guy's credit. He was totally screwed.

And, in this particular case, he probably went from Burger King to a dozen other jobs.

[Bluebear]

19. Well come back when you find an article where that happened.

This article does not convince me that the burger grill cook is a "criminal".

[CanonRay]

24. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

I've seen it, personally, hundreds, if not thousands of times.

[Bluebear]

25. Great, find a news article what describes a horrific, damaging use of a SSN

Not somebody who made French fries for twenty years.

[CanonRay]

41. See response #33, below

If it's not a problem, why don't you post YOUR SSN here? I'm sure it will all be just fine.

[cherokeeprogressive]

72. Is it damaging to have it stolen by 37 different illegal immigrants?

How about if it keeps you from getting a job? Feeding your family? Paying your mortgage?

Ask Linda Trevino if it's damaging

[klyon]

36. I think it would be fraud. We should track this situation and deport these people

There should be some sort of follow up when this money is posted to this special account. The government should not get to keep this money and illegals should not be given jobs. Seems simple to me. Do the right thing is all I ask.

[lukasahero]

95. If I'm reading this right, and I think I am, his wife was the beneficiary

on "Holli's" 401k. In the event of "Holli's" death, her money would not have gone to her chosen beneficiary - spouse, children, parents - it would have gone to the wife of the guy who stole her SSN. That's not cool.

[Cant trust em]

6. This entire argument is a non-sequitur

Illegal immigration is a crime. Social Security number-only identity theft is also a crime. But the two aren't necessarily linked together. They can be and many times are, but cracking down on immigration isn't the best answer.

[Iris]

70. exactly what I was thinking

the chances of getting your identity swiped from a fellow citizen are probably far greater than it ending up with an illegal alien's name attached to it.

[BanzaiBonnie]

7. Stir the pot

I love when people come here to gently educate us.

[IndianaJones]

9. whoa...this threatens my life and future. nt.

[fascisthunter]

105. ya... "whoa"... pretty compelling expresssion

:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. That sucks.

So I'm sure you're also in favor of amnesty.

:thumbsup:

[underpants]

11. What about left handed traffic guards who think illegal immigration isn't a crime???

:shrug:

I wasn't aware of anyone saying it wasn't a crime. I have seen people rightly say that it SHOULDN'T be a crime but until the necessary changes are made it of course IS a crime.

[Cleita]

12. Excuse me but they buy those fake SS cards on the streets from

American con men who steal the numbers and charge about fifty dollars for them. So how about going after the real criminals here. I know. I ran across many of them when I did payroll for restaurants. Most weren't even good forgeries. If the employer checked, they would have caught it before the person was hired. So who really is breaking the law here besides the undocumented worker.

[Andy823]

20. You are right.

They should be going after the employers! Stop people from hiring illegals, and the problem goes away. Those who want to work here will go about the "LEGAL" process of doing so.

[klyon]

38. we need a way for employers to verify the number goes with the person

and put the responsibility on the employer at the time the person is hired. We can straighten this out if we try. because we ignored this for so long the problem has grown to the point where the pain to correct on all sides will be astronomic.

[AZBlue]

116. We have one - it's e-verify and it works.

[PVnRT]

46. Nah, scapegoats are so much better

Good White Americans who steal identities and hire illegals to skirt the law can't be blamed for anything.

[IronLionZion]

59. It's easier to blame "furriners" than your own people. nt

[rox63]

14. This is a form of identity theft

Lots of things are tied to your social security number, including your credit rating. So if the person who has been "sharing" your ss # has lousy credit habits, it can have a direct effect on your life. Try getting a mortgage or car loan. A lot of employers now do credit checks on people who are applying for a job. Same thing when you're looking for a new apartment. Landlords will often run credit checks on those who want to rent from them. Try getting a security clearance with a bad credit record.

[Andy823]

23. I agree, but it's a waste of time

To try and get some people to understand this. Someday some of these people who defend such crap may get a visit from the IRS, or find out their credit has been destroyed by an illegal using their SS number, then maybe, just maybe they will get the picture, but I won't hold my breath!

[rox63]

37. I have a friend who has a blog about identity theft and its affects, and how to avoid it

I think it's quite informative: http://ivebeenmugged.typepad.com/

[mike_c]

15. looks pretty victimless to me....

I looked through the entire linked article, can't find a single mention of negative effects for anyone. So this guy made a decent life for his family for twenty years. Worked, paid taxes, etc? More power to him!

[Bluebear]

18. Sorry, "Holli" and the OP want him back in Mexico pronto!

[CanonRay]

21. I spent 20 years dealing with the negative effects.

Believe me, they are real. When some guy gets a car loan with your SSN, and gets repo'd, your screwed.

My own niece couldn't rent an apartment because an illegal was using her SSN.

It can happen to anyone, anytime.

[mike_c]

27. so make it possible for people to work in America without having...

...to hide and that sort of thing won't happen. I mean come on, most of us would do exactly the same thing if we had to, i.e. if the shoe were on the other foot. It's a crime because we've criminalized it. We have complete and utter control of THAT, and very little control of the basic human motives that compel people to work for the betterment of their lives and families. I say do what we can actually do-- pay folks a living wage and reward those who contribute to our society REGARDLESS of where an accident of birth started them-- or us-- out.

[Ms. Toad]

78. Precisely my thoughts.

The problem pointed out in the article was identity theft. If we stopped treating people's right to live and work where they choose as illegal based on where they (or their parents) were born, there wouldn't be so much of a market for social security numbers.

[datasuspect]

28. i keep forgetting are illegals the new communists

or are the terrorists still the new communists?

i can't remember who to hate.

[Goblinmonger]

61. Keep it straight for God's sake

Terrorists are the new communists
Illegals are the new blacks
Blacks are the new Jews
Jews are the.....damn it, gotta go back and check the memo

[LanternWaste]

29. So let's outlaw lily-white college girls from Connecticut!

It can happen to anyone, anytime."
It sure can...identity theft happened to me too.

But the illegal in question was a lily-white college girl from Connecticut.

So let's outlaw lily-white college girls from Connecticut! Who's with me! Grab some torches and I'll get the pitchforks!


oops-- I'm apologize, my example doesn't seem to attack the true target of your post. my bad.

[Zywiec]

34. Why would you outlaw lily-white college girls from Connecticut?

As a group, are they all doing something illegal?


:shrug:

[LanternWaste]

42. No more, nor no less than any one person

"As a group, are they all doing something illegal?"

No more, nor no less than any one person, as an individual or as part and parcel of a group, is doing something illegal.

[slackmaster]

33. A man used my SSN and ID to get a credit card, bought a bunch of stuff, and never paid the bills

He was indicted for GRAND THEFT and, still using my identity, never showed up at court for his arraignment.

A Fresno (California) County Superior Court Judge issued a warrant for my arrest (Failure to Appear).

Several months later, I happened to be detained by a San Diego PD officer. I was arrested and dragged downtown to jail.

It took nine weeks and about $3,000 in legal fees for me to get that mess straightened out - Criminal records, court calendars, credit agency files, etc. I almost lost my job because of it. It happened in 1986.

Fuck anyone who uses someone else's SSN!

[truedelphi]

48. You got indicted for the theft of your identity??

Yikes. Reminds me of the sci fi tale where someone takes out "Kidnapped" by Robert Louis Stevenson and gets indicted for kidnapping. Then it is proven in Court that Robert Louis Stevenson is dead, so they end up on death row for a kidnapping that resulted in death.

[slackmaster]

64. I was indicted for theft of a bunch of stuff I never saw by someone I never met

Who claimed to be me when he applied for and obtained a credit card.

[truedelphi]

75. Kafka-esque must have a very special meaning for you.

Sorry that you had to go through this.

[slackmaster]

90. Thank you.

Kafkaesque is precisely my experience. I thought I was losing my mind for several weeks. I seriously questioned whether I might have had a psychotic break and gone on a wild crime spree in Fresno, then suppressed the memory. (In retrospect, I think that willingness to question one's own sanity is really a sign of a healthy mind.)

Sometimes a good lawyer is just what you need to get your head straightened out. I wish I could get my hands on the prick who stole my identity, but he disappeared into the woodwork.

All this happened before widespread public access to the Internet.

[Cleita]

107. I was a victim of ID thief too but it wasn't an undocumented worker

using my SS # to go to work. It was an American who stole my cc#. Fortunately, I had cancelled the card months before. The cc company had not canceled my card but couldn't stick me for the theft since they were at fault. Things are not fool proof out there. A neighbor of mine was once arrested because he had the same name as a wanted felon. It cost him too to get the mess straightened out. If you don't want your SS # used by others, you need to keep track of it and the SS office has reports they will send to you on request.

[EFerrari]

45. I think "your" full of it. Ciao. n/t

[Iggo]

47. You keep saying "believe me..."

Problem is, I don't.

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. Anecdotal

The article in the OP isn't about a guy getting a car loan or your niece renting an apartment.

Besides, if you really think this is a serious problem, then how about supporting a legal means for giving SS numbers to undocumented workers? Then they can legally ruin their own credit.

[Dogtown]

91. Anecdotes about "personal experience"

Are def the best evidence.

I'm convinced now & will vote for mccain for sure!!111!

[Mountainman]

22. Speeding is a crime, do you speed? Cheating on your income tax is a crime, do you cheat on your

income tax!

This is such a red herring to cover your xenophobic ass!

[CanonRay]

26. First, I'm not xenophopic.

Second, what has the fact that there are other crimes have to do with anything? Murder is a crime too.

I love your assumption about me.

[Kelvin Mace]

30. The number and severity of the crimes committed

by immigrants is a low priority for me. The crimes being committed by the legal residents and by our "leaders" is far, far, more serious.

Illegal immigration doesn't even make my top ten.

[Alcibiades]

89. Some illegal immigrants do commit serious crimes

Not that I'm advocating anything hysterical such as massive deportation, but can be a problem. The problem with illegal immigration isn't just that it's illegal, or that we are not free to do in Mexico what illegal immigrants do here (and the people concerned about making US residency a universal human right don't even consider that reciprocity has anything to do with justice), but rather that it's impossible to see who is coming in. Time was, criminals flowed out of the US, heading for the border to freedom. Now it's the other way around.

There are also criminal organizations coming in that make the mafia look like a bunch of red hat ladies. For example, the Mara Salvatrucha. You'll know when they make it to High Point because you will see their "MS-13" graffiti in areas they frequent, assuming you're curious enough to look for it. You may see more folks who are heavily tatted up. You'll also see more folks sporting sports apparel from popular athletes with no local connection, such as Kurt Warner, Alex Rodriguez, who happen to wear the number 13.

There's also some chance of random gang violence, but the chance that you will be personally targeted is very, very small. Here in Durham, we've gotten pretty used to it. I wouldn't say it's a top ten issue for me, either, but certainly top 20.

[Truth2Tell]

109. the Mara Salvatrucha

Aren't they connected to Al-Qaeda? Osama bin Rodriguez?

[Alcibiades]

117. Good one!

:yourock:

[Mountainman]

32. Yeah, that's what they all say.

You just want all of us to be good citizens and obey the law and you want all the illegals deported why? Because they broke a misdemeanor law? Please, I just didn't fall off a vegetable harvesting truck.

[CanonRay]

39. Actually, it's a felony

but who's counting.

No, I'd like to see a way for them to work here without screwing up everybody else in the process. I don't have the answer, but I've got a good grip on the problem.

[Mountainman]

56. The answer it to have more unskilled jobs available, make education more affordable,

make trade agreements that give immigrants more incentive to stay in their own country, bring back manufacturing and all the other jobs sent overseas. That's a start.

If we would stop looking at the problem as them vs us but see it as a problem as workers vs corporations maybe we could work together for the benefit of all.

By keeping is all absorbed with illegal immigration arguments we don't get to the main problem which it that the wealthy ruling class are making slaves of us all.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. Felony? I don't think it's even a misdeamenor.

It's a civil issue.

[klyon]

43. no they take good jobs from legal citizen like me

because they will work cheaper and not stand-up for themselves
employers are making big profits from undocumented workers

[Mountainman]

55. I didn't see you in the fields this weekend picking strawberries. Did they take those farm labor

jobs away from you? I know don't say they do the work we don't want to do because we would do it if it paid enough. They will never pay enough so that is a red herring too!

[klyon]

66. that is not the only job they are taking ...open your eyes

the price of food will go up but paying a living wage is the right thing to do
and how do you know I never worked on a farm
I have been in the agri-business most of my life so fu......

[DIKB]

80. You should be angry at Saint Ronnie

and the other repuke swine who eased penalties on companies, and people who provide jobs for illegals.

The first step in getting rid of pests:

Do not provide a food source.

Were they to punish the job-providers enough, there would be virtually no jobs for illegals, and the population would go down, because their reason for being here would be practically non-existent.

Sadly the repukes KNOW what they need to do, and they WON'T do it, because it provides them with another Wedge Issue, and you and yours are buying into it.

Get the illegals here, their corporate buddies make big-time bucks.

Piss off the average American, and they support the party of intolerance and xenophobia: republicans.

[lumberjack_jeff]

103. I harvested flower bulbs as a teen.

My best friend planted trees.
Both my brothers in law worked as farmhands. One until he was 40.
I put in plenty of hay.

These are all jobs that americans would, until quite recently, do. They don't do them now largely because they can't.

[zbdent]

31. so's hiring them ...

take away the incentive (hire legal immigrants and U.S. citizens), and they'll stop coming over the border to work for Republican fundraisers ...

[madokie]

50. Thats whats happening here in ok now

This time last year you could drive up to about any construction job around here, both private and commercial and holler out immigration and all you would see would be assholes and elbows, not now so much though. The difference is now they now are going after the employers, more so, as it should be.... Oklahoma HB 1804 if you want to look it up

This is not directed at you, ok.:-) I will not lay down and let someone come in here and take my job without a fight. If they take my job because they are better than me thats one thing and so be it but when it's because someone will work for a pittance then thats a whole nuther ballgame altogether. I have a right to not have to compete with someone who will flaunt the law and come in the night, so to say, and by doing so will then have to work sometimes for pennies on the dollars, well maybe not quite pennies on the dollar but you should get my drift nonetheless. I have a right to protect my jobs here and will.

[High Plains]

60. Why don't you organize your co-workers instead of deporting them?

Or advocate for comprehensive immigration reform so these foreign workers have the same rights and protections as native workers?

[Better Believe It]

40. For Christ's Sake Legalize The Immigrants!

That's the solution.

[treestar]

115. Exactly. That they are illegal is what means they cannot demand

equal treatment, and thus makes them more desirable for the employer.

"The working class? I am not afraid of the working class. I can pay half the working class to kill the other half."
JP Morgan

Why do people always fall for that? If they would join forces with the illegal immigrants, it would be like the early unions. Instead, they let hatred be used to separate them and get them to work against themselves.

[KharmaTrain]

44. You Don't Need To Sneak Into This Country To Get An SSN...

Just ask any of those poor Nigerian widows.

The question here that isn't answered is how her SSN was hacked. Did she give it out to some goofy online site? Forget to shred billing statement? Or was her security compromised as her number was hacked from a database?

Identity theft is a major problem...and a bigger hassle...especially in these days when the banks have ALL the power and the consumer all the burden. It's not an "illegal alien" crime, it's a worldwide one.

[maui9002]

49. Respectfully, whether undocumented immigration

is illegal (it clearly is) or whether it is a victimless crime (the illegal immigration is for the most part victimless, but immigrants can and do commit crimes) is not the issue; the issue is what we should do to address the problems associated with illegal immigration. The one you cite in the OP arguably would not be much of a problem if immigrants were allowed to work here under legal status; if so, they wouldn't have the incentive to commit identify theft. Please note that I do not condone identity theft, and don't think it's justified in the situation you reported on. But the question is how do we deal with it; one group believes strongly in enforcement only--increase immigration enforcement efforts, pass laws making it more difficult for illegal immigrants to survive, and build higher and longer fences along the U.S./Mexican border; and the other group (the one I support) believes well constructed comprehensive immigration reform can alleviate many of these problems without some of the costs (and while being more humane and fair to the immigrants). Comprehensive immigration reform would reduce the need for fake identification (because the immigrants would be granted legal status), provide protections for U.S. laborers, enforce minimum wage laws, require immigrants to abide by certain rules to gain and maintain legal status (e.g., pay a fine, pay for insurance, pay taxes, and demonstrate English proficiency) without breaking up families, arresting and deporting thousands (actually millions) of undocumented workers who are here already (which hurts businesses and the economy--because these people are workers, consumers, and tax payers (even if they're not paying income taxes, they're paying sales and in many instances property taxes), and paying hundreds of millions (possibly billions) to build an environmentally unfriendly wall across our southern border that will not stop those who are determined to get over the wall.

[no limit]

51. "he had found a decent life for his family ". That was a joke, right?

Yeah, working your entire life at Burger King is the american dream.

[countryjake]

52. The crime is that one who wishes to make an honest living has to "steal" a number...

to simply be able to support family and survive in this "melting pot" nation of ours.

And the other major crime is that the millions in tax dollars that those sort of hard-working individuals pay into our government coffers, yearly, continues to grow into a staggering amount that will never benefit the ones whose labor and sweat largely funded the "Earnings Suspense File" which the SSA maintains as their secret stash.



Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

~snip~

Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.

The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the amount of the 1980's.

In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.

[progressoid]

53. I've heard that smoking pot is a crime too.

:shrug:

[OhioChick]

54. How do other countries deal with these issues? n/t

[OhioChick]

86. Anyone?

:shrug:

[LanternWaste]

58. What is the precise and relevant correlation...

What is the precise and relevant correlation (for our purposes) between identity theft and immigration?

As far as I know, identity theft is not a crime unique to any one demographic. :shrug:

[earth mom]

65. Wow-to think some on this thread are defending this behavior!

That just blows my mind. :wtf:

How come illegal immigrants can do NO wrong even when they steal identities?

Betcha if this was a legal resident/citizen stealing social security numbers, people on this thread would condemn it in a nano second.

I guess CRIME is allowable for some people, but not others. :eyes:

[Zywiec]

68. If you like dozens of threads where illegal immigrants can do NO wrong

You're in the right place!

[Bluebear]

71. Yeah, "Wow"! To think some would confuse illegal immigration with identity theft.

That just blows my mind!

[earth mom]

73. So you were raised that it's okay to LIE CHEAT and STEAL?

(pssst-You might not want to advertise that fact.) :puke:

[Bluebear]

74. Yes, obviously I was, "Golden Rule"

:puke:

[earth mom]

88. Thought so.

:puke:

[Bluebear]

92. I don't know why you enjoy insulting me so much, but so be it.

[earth mom]

119. Whoa now. I didn't go after you in the first place-you went after me and insulted me first.

Just because I care about workers rights/ethics for the people who are legally here and whom I'm sick of seeing screwed over and exploited.

And for that, you tried to paint me as some sort of bad person that doesn't care about people.

Which, FYI, is the FURTHEST thing from the truth.



You know, this isn't the first time you've gone after me.

Obviously we don't see eye to eye.



You like illegal immigration and Obama.

I like fair and ethical treatment of legal workers first and Al Gore.



In your opinion, you probably think you are further to the left than me.

In my opinion, I know I am further to the left than you.



It's looking doubtful that we can have a real conversation or a meeting of the minds

So why don't you back off and quit trying to pick a fight with me?

[DIKB]

79. You OBVIOUSLY work from the assumption

that someone who uses their life savings to come here and live in a shack many times with many other people, somehow has ability to afford the means, and has the technical know-how to operate and work the system so that they can steal an identity.

See my other post near the bottom of the thread.

[earth mom]

121. If you believe that-then why don't you take your social security number & give it to an illegal

immigrant who needs a job?

Yeah, I'll bet you'll run right out and do that! NOT! :eyes:

[DIKB]

128. Seriously,

think it out and read before you post.

My post was pointing out that there is NO WAY that these illegals are the ONLY party responsible for the "identity theft" part of obtaining their jobs. There was no defense of the actual act, just the point that they don't have the means. There is a system in place that provides these services to them, often linked to trafficking them across the border.

How you got from that to telling me to provide my SSN to them. . . I have no idea.

That sort of logic-teleportation (going immediately from one point to an extremely farther point down the line) is akin to freeper logic. Please for the sake of all involved on this board, practice reason and try to discern what people are saying before posting.

It will prevent you putting words in peoples' mouths, and keep you from fighting straw men (a practice EXTREMELY popular with a certain infantile wannabe dictator).

[LanternWaste]

96. Who specifically is defending identity theft?

Who specifically on this thread is defending identity theft? Who specifically on this thread is stating that an immigrant (or anyone for that matter) can do no wrong?

That your answers will be (at best) vague and evasive to the above questions is the source of my hourly amusement and my daily pity.

[fascisthunter]

108. nobody

People are just calling the article out as trying to forment hysteria over "Illegal Immigration" which is the GOP's wedge issue this election.

[earth mom]

122. I'm not going to sight post after post to prove my point to you.

If you can't read this thread through and figure out who is defending this practice, that's your problem, not mine.

Btw, I find your attempt at smearing me pathetic and amusing.

I guess I will need to keep an eye out for your posts for the entertainment value, since I don't think I ever noticed you or your posts before.

[LanternWaste]

123. there's the vague and evasive answer I had expected...

"I'm not going to sight post after post to prove my point to you. " ("Cite" post after post...)
But yeah-- there's the vague and evasive answer I had expected...

"that's your problem, not mine."
Not really. That I don't read into posts what is not there is not a problem at all...

[earth mom]

126. Thanks for the spelling lesson. It was late, I was tired. But who gives a damn?

You just want to stir up crap for no reason.

Go away pesky fly. :eyes:

[LanternWaste]

127. No... what I'd like is a precise answer

"You just want to stir up crap for no reason."

No... what I'd like is a precise answer to the question I posed earlier-- "specifically who is defending identity theft?"

But, if it's simply easier for you to deflect that, I completely understand; and, as you requested, I'll no longer ask (nor expect) valid answers to questions posed to you in this thread or others...


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ZombieHorde]

67. "For those DUers who think illegal immigration isn't a crime - or is a "victimless" crime."

I guess that we were right. Thank you for affirming our beliefs.

I thought that this part of the article was funny...

a Mexican national with no right to work in the United States

But we have the right because to work here because...ahhh...How did I earn that right again?

The broken glass reference that is used more than once is pretty silly as well.

edit to add: Even if she was victimized, the victimization would have come from ID theft, not from working illegally.

[Orsino]

69. Confusing identity theft with illegal immigration?

Or did you just want me to start hating Teh Meskins?

Neither will be persuasive.

[Blue Diadem]

76. The secret list of ID theft victims. This article explains hidden subfiles in credit reports

The secret list of ID theft victims
Consumers could be warned, but U.S government isn't talking

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/
(lengthy article worth the read)


snip:
This so-called "SSN-only" identity theft poses a unique set of problems for consumers and the nation's credit bureaus. If credit is granted by a lender, an entry is made in credit bureau files -- but not disclosed to the consumer who properly owns that number. Even when a consumer gets a copy of her credit report, such fraudulent accounts don't appear on the report. Instead, the bureaus create what are sometimes called "subfiles," which act like separate identities in their databases.

In fact, consumer credit reports obtained from the credit bureaus expressly leave off this kind of fraud. If an imposter is using a consumer's Social Security number but his own name and address to open up fraudulent accounts, a consumer-disclosed credit report won't include that information. The rightful number holder will never know.

snip:
For now, with the tacit approval from all involved, undocumented workers buy counterfeit cards from suppliers who steal or simply manufacture Social Security numbers.

About 90 percent of the time in cases he's investigated, Utah's Hamp said, the numbers used belong to a real person. But even in the other cases, there's still harm done: the number may be issued in the future, meaning a baby may be born with a surprising financial past.

------------------------------------------

[DIKB]

77. And how about the meth makers?

Those legally born Americans living on the fringe, SELLING their social security numbers then using the income others make to cover their illegal income?

People steal identities or buy them from willing parties, the fact that these are then sold to people who want to use them to make a better life for themselves SOMEHOW imparts all of the guilt onto the BROWN PERSON!?!?!??!?!?

The demonization of illegal immigrants today, when for centuries there existed an open border policy, smacks of fascism and xenophobia.

In the shadow of outsourcing of technical and skilled jobs, high-paying jobs with benefits, the fact that everyone is focused on the people who work mostly minimum wage, trying to scrape by is BEYOND SICKENING!!!


A poor man steals a loaf of bread to feed his family, but he's brown and was born in another country.

A wealthy affluent man steals your life-savings, and destroys your ability to provide a better life for your family, but he's white and was born here.

Which one is THE REAL BAD GUY?????

[Blue Diadem]

81. The victims in this are the "brown" people and those who

have had their social security numbers stolen.

I thought this woman said it best (from the article The secret list of ID theft victims)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673

Melody Millet's husband Steve was the victim of immigrant identity theft. None of the agencies involved are trying to tackle the problem because they all benefit from it, as does corporate America, she said. The IRS and Social Security collect extra taxes, lenders sell more loans and employers get inexpensive workers. Fixing the problem and telling all the victimized consumers would upset the delicate apple cart that is America's immigration policy, she said.

"The government is forcing people to share identities because they want to provide cheap labor to corporate America," Melody Millet said.

[windoe]

82. Have you ever visited the INS?

I have accompanied people there and witnessed some of the worst treatment imaginable. People from all over the world, scared, studying their paperwork and practicing their English, in hopes of getting a green card or their citizenship, all the while being treated like animals by petty tyrants I swear are hired for their ability to verbally abuse complete strangers. They lose paperwork, then make people start over, yell at them for not speaking correct English. I was embarrassed and nearly lost my temper just having to deal with them.
The INS has been 'restructured' and absorbed into the Homeland Security Department, which has put countless people's paperwork in limbo. Before you dare to insult immigrants who come to this country looking for jobs and a life think about what impossible odds they have in dealing with the system to straighten out their legal papers.
Our immigration policy and INS departments are a mess right now, thanks to *. We don't have an "Immigrant Problem' (FOX News meme) we have a challenge and opportunity to restructure our domestic foreign policies, which if handled carefully could work in our favor.
Identity theft is a crime and a problem, but if we had a better policy for dealing with migrant workers and immigrants perhaps there would be less need to commit such crimes.

[ismnotwasm]

83. Oh for god's sakes

Is identity theft less of a crime when it's committed by a citizen? Does it hurt less? Cause less damage? Is is less dangerous?

Immigration, and immigration law are complex issues that also involve a wide variety of very human stories. Stories like this supposedly representing "illegal immigration" not only don't help, they actively hinder solutions by further polarizing the issues using bullshit smokescreens.

[Fox Mulder]

84. I'd be pissed if someone was using my social security number.

[OhioChick]

85. Same here. n/t

[blindpig]

94. No such thing as illegal people,

the whole concept is racist.

what should be illegal is NAFTA.

[fed_up_mother]

113. Then if a few million Europeans want to come on over

and depress wages, I'm sure you'll have no objection.

Right?

Just open the door, and let 'em all in.

And my neighbor's kids can just come and clean out my pantry because - damn - coming into my house shouldn't be a crime! After all, they're just some really nice kids.

[Teaser]

97. Illegal Immigration is NOT.A.CRIME.

It is a civil offense, not a criminal offense.

[Cleita]

101. Thank you. It's time that people realized that going to work is not

a crime. It's an offense not much different than a traffic offense.

[lumberjack_jeff]

104. Just like a traffic offense, but with more bankruptcy.

See post 33.

[fed_up_mother]

114. For which other civil offense can you be hauled off and deported?

Kind of makes it in a class by itself.

[depakid]

98. Sounds like the crime was using a fake social security number

as opposed to immigration status.

But let's not let technicalities get in the way of immigrant bashing.

[Cleita]

100. I knew a girl from Belfast, who came out here on a visitor's visa.

Before she left Ireland she applied for a SS# because she stated that she wanted to open a bank account so she could invest in some American companies. She was advised to do this by someone who was an expat American and a lawyer in Ireland. She got the SS card in the mail before she left Ireland. Once here she got a job. She outstayed her visa and was quite illegal for a few years until she met an American and married him and is now legal and an American citizen. She still has the same SS number and it's her's no one elses.

[lonestarnot]

102. How do you know this isn't blame the Mexican and not super control over Holly's money?

Ever try to cash in your 401K? They'll do anything to hold onto it! :hmmmmf: I'm suspicious!

[fascisthunter]

106. ya... ok.... yawn

your concern has been noted

[treestar]

112. You're talking about using the false SS number, not the illegal

entry into the U.S.

Which is still just a civil violation, and not a crime.

No matter how labeled, it does not hurt anyone in the U.S., most of whom are already better off.

[Feron]

118. No job supply, no illegal workers.

It's that simple. I do think that a better process should be in place for guest workers and assigning temporary workers a tax number. Hell give us all a tax number instead of the social.

Frankly I don't think that a social security number should be used for everything. It was my college ID number(graduated in 2001), it's my password for pdfs sent from Sallie Mae (that's going to change soon--finally since there was no way to change the password to something else), etc. It's not hard to steal someone's identity when the number is going to be transmitted and stored in many places with varying security policies.

It's not that uncommon to hear of unshredded sensitive documents placed in a dumpster or places like TJ Maxx which apparently had no security policy guarding the data of consumers. Shoot you could go dumpster diving at a university and collect papers with a social on them. I wouldn't be surprised if some colleges still use socials as an ID number. Or just a simple con scheme or pulling numbers out of thin air.

Many people use fraudelant socials and not all of them are illegals. Unfortuantely according the the MSNBC article linked in this thread, there is no way to check for fraud until you run into a problem. So everything is tied to one number, but you can't check activity on it and if you end up in jail or destitute due to an issue oh well--we have the money from the other 9,999 people sharing your number. Tough shit.

Here's a great op-ed about illegal workers from earlier this week:
http://www.2theadvocate.com/opinion/19239504.html


------------
Church groups provided invaluable help. But day in and day out, it was men from Guatemala, Honduras and Mexico who swung hammers, lifted and toted and otherwise rebuilt the homes and businesses that government — state and federal — couldn’t seem to.
---------------------

Illegal immigration is a problem, but not for the government and corporations. However illegal immigrants can also provide valuable services when similar local services aren't sufficient to meet the demand.

First we need to stop everything from being tied to one number. I shouldn't be able to assume another person's life with a few digits. Secondly we need a sane immigration policy that isn't so fucked up. And I'm tired of the racist Hispanic boogeyman.

I don't think that there should be open borders, but I also don't think that illegals are the devil incarnate either.

[bhikkhu]

120. Identity theft and illegal immigration are different things.

You may as well post an article about cocaine smuggling and say "illegal immigration something or other..."