Who Illegal Immigration Really Hurts

[McHatin]

Illegal immigration, just the name of the subject invokes controversy. But names aside, does illegal immigration help or hurt the US?

The question is more complex than it seems, since illegal immigration helps and hurts the US. But who does it help and who does it hurt?

There have been many studies on the economic impact of illegal immigration, and what these studies have shown, much like NAFTA, is that illegal immigration is overall an economic boon to the US. Increased production from lower production costs (wages) and an expanding consumer base has actually contributed to economic growth, especially in areas where illegal immigrants settle heavily such as Houston or southern California. However, this comes at the expense of US workers working in similar jobs that illegal immigrants are going into, such as construction and landscaping. These US workers have seen drops in their real wages and standard of living and some are driven to unemployment. The plus side for those US workers is that some of the products they pay for may have some price reduction due to increased production from lower wages, but this does not offset their income losses.

It is no surprise that Bush and big business is for keeping the status quo via the border with Mexico, as it is the many that benefit (though only some benefit heavily) at the expense of the few when it comes to illegal immigration. Businesses see higher profit margins and US consumers lower prices while some US workers see their wages deflated and immigrant workers are exploited.

The question then becomes why Democrats would support lax immigration laws when it seems to be hurting the Democrat's base as well as going against Democrat ideals through businesses that exploit illegal low wage labor, paying them below minimum wage and not following labor laws for the purpose of a higher profit. This is why I am all for government actually seriously going after businesses that employ illegal immigrants while also creating a border that is more stable and less favorable to human labor violations.

I want to be totally honest though. If government did this, it would overall hurt the economy of the US a bit, maybe more so in certain areas, but it would be the humane and fair thing to do. I would rather have a less booming economy in exchange for a more level economy and livable wages for all. I think this is a Democrat ideal.

*Just an aside, I know no human is illegal, just the way they got here can be*

*Another aside, those who cry racism against those who oppose illegal immigration have no real grasp of the issue and certainly no understanding of what racism is*

[Double T]

1. I agree. Further, I would build a secure wall that would 'STOP' the easy flow.......

of illegal aliens and drug traffic.

[OhioChick]

2. I Second That. n/t

[McHatin]

3. I agree that something needs to be done

A wall may be the answer, but maybe just increasing the size of the border patrol would do the job as well without having to create a wall across our entire border. Would be more efficient I think. I also think that once you start cracking down on businesses that employ illegal immigrants, you will see that they will not be willing to come across the border anymore if there are no jobs to be had in near as large of numbers.

[pingzing58]

4. Great reflection on the economics. Can you write on the human/humane side of deportation?

[McHatin]

6. So what you're saying is this...

The prospect of deportation is so deplorable that we should not enforce immigration laws? The economic exploitation of this human labor is nothing compared to the prospect of deportation? You would rather businesses prosper at the expense of workers so that you don't have to send illegal immigrants home? I think deportation is much the lesser of the two evils.

I think deportation is perfectly justified. I do not think that families should be split up, I will say that much. But let's say I go to France and decide to live there without going through the proper legal channels. Now I've worked there for 10 years and I get found out. But I have a good job and plenty of friends, I've made a whole life for myself. Still, they deport me, would you say I was unjustly treated?

Either way, I'm not advocating mass deportation, I realize that the vast majority of the illegal immigrants who are now here will stay here. Most of them have already become citizens and there will have to be another Amnesty. I think it is practical that they stay here, as there is no other real solution. The ineptness of our government has made it (purposely) so. With such a huge mass of people, there is no way the US could keep track. The idea is to stop future illegal immigration and to make it manageable. I think the issue of economic exploitation is much more pressing than deportation. Economic exploitation is what the Bush regime thrives off of. If you'd rather have that than the relatively minor human suffering associated with minimal deportation, then you have your priorities mixed up. How big of an issue is deportation anyways? How many illegal immigrants who are able to get past the border and settle here for more than a few years get deported? It's a relative non-issue.

[pingzing58]

51. Thank you for the reply. The illegal immigrant issue is not just about money. It's about real

men, women and children; families who have a God given right to seek out employment to provide food, shelter, clothing, health and education for the family.

[RB TexLa]

5. Amnesty and citizenship solve everything you mentioned.

[McHatin]

7. Except

the prospect of future illegal immigration, which would continue the same cycle. Actually, amnesty and citizenship have both been granted before, yet the economic exploitation still continues as no policies change and hundreds of thousands of new illegal immigrants each year still flow in...

So how has amnesty in the past solved these problems?

[RB TexLa]

8. Well guess you had better get your razor wire together and help get that fence built.

[McHatin]

11. Guess you better not defend your answer...

I think a border wall is not necessary, except in high traffic areas where there are already some form of a wall or other anyways. It's not very practical, and enforcing immigration laws against businesses and a larger border patrol would do the trick much better I think.

No need to be snippy!

[RB TexLa]

12. Wasn't snippy, if you are that concerned with people comming here that is something

you can do. I didn't say it was a concern of mine. And as it's not a concern to me, I offer no solutions.

[McHatin]

18. If illegal immigration does not concern you

I understand. It really does not effect most people, except you might see lower prices due to it. It does not effect me personally, actually it probably benefits me.

I care about illegal immigration because I care about those workers who are being hurt by it and also about economic exploitation. So do Democrats in general. Hence the thread...

So if you don't care about it, why post on this thread? Go offer your "solutions" elsewhere.

[RB TexLa]

19. What about the workers who are the illegal immigrants? Care about them? Or only the legal workers?

And out of those two groups who is more in need of other's caring?

[McHatin]

22. Both

Illegal immigrants are being exploited by businesses here, you know that as well as I do. Businesses don't have to follow labor laws with an illegal work force. Also, workers in Mexico will be hard pressed to improve their conditions when no one stays to form unions or fight for political change.

[EFerrari]

29. That's ridiculous. The reason that labor is struggling in Mexico

is not, lol, because people come here but because the United States props up the oligarchy to the point of stealing elections from progressives.

Oaxaca is having another fine protest this week, regardless. Labor in Mexico is MUCH more vigorous than it is here.

Two Years After the Barricades in Oaxaca, Part I
Thursday, 29 May 2008, 11:26 am
Column: narconews.com

Davies: Two Years After the Barricades in Oaxaca, Part I

May 28, 2008
Please Distribute Widely

Dear Colleague,

Two years after barricades filled the streets of Oaxaca - and federal police were ordered in to clear them - the social movement which spurred those five months of resistance is still smoldering strongly. Narco News' Nancy Davies returns to give us an update from Oaxaca, where she notes that the social movement has shifted through many forms, always surviving regardless of the formation or ruination of organizations that rise up around it.

Davies walks us through the current form in which the movement is advancing, whether it be in organized opposition to an international wind generation complex, or towards the resistance of the privatization of Mexico's oil producer, PEMEX, not to mention the quickly slipping support of the unpopular Oaxaca Governor, Ulises Ruiz Ortiz.

Davies reports:

"The 'social movement,' not to be confused with the National Union of Education Workers (SNTE) or the Popular Assembly of the Peoples of Oaxaca (APPO), resides in the populace seeking change. It is alive and well. It lives in all eight regions of the state, strongly situated within civil society and non-governmental organizations.

"...These public discussions all over Mexico, and across the state of Oaxaca, come at the instigation of Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, the 'defeated' PRD presidential candidate and leader of the anti- privatization campaign. Lopez Obrador came to Oaxaca on Tuesday, May 20. He spoke at an 'invitation only' event at the Hotel Mision de Los Angeles, to about 1,200 people. He recruited hundreds of them in 'brigades' to go door-to-door to collect signatures in opposition to privatization, and dozens to head up the statewide forums."

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0805/S00407.htm

[McHatin]

40. Bullshit

You can claim all you want that the US has the power to control all the governments of Latin America, but I don't believe you. The Mexican government is corrupt as hell, that is why elections get stolen. Sure their Unions are more active, but they have to be considering they don't have the institutional and government backing that workers do here. Unions in the US used to be very active, part of the reason they aren't as active is because they have achieved a lot of good things for workers here (though they should be more active).

Big business loves illegal immigration... isn't that enough for you?

[EFerrari]

53. I don't have to claim anything. If you were serious

you could find it out on your own.

It may be enough for you to see one piece of the whole picture but you're only cheating yourself.

[Andy823]

36. I agree, and this is something

That is always overlooked when it comes to the debate on illegal immigration. Employers who use illegals can do whatever they want because the illegals are afraid to go the authorities! I know many who have come here illegally, and who have told me stories of employers in my area who cheated them on wages, paid them below the minimum wage in this state, and made the live in sub standard housing. Some employers even called the border patrol and turned in their own workers to avoid paying them wages and bonuses they had coming at the end of harvest.

[Mountainman]

34. That is so full of shit! Exploiting people who would otherwise starve in their own country?

How can giving someone a wage that they could never get at home exploitation? Sure all people should be paid a living wage but until you are willing to welcome workers from the south and form labor organizations together you will never get anywhere. The illegals are not going away and calling for that is like pissing in the wind!

[McHatin]

37. Calm down

The vast majority of immigrants are not starving in their countries, believe it or not. And I'm not calling for mass deportation. I'm saying we should stop future illegal immigration. And yes, businesses are exploiting illegal workers.

Why do you think that Bush supports it???

[Mountainman]

41. Calm down? That is supposed to have some effect? Like discounting what I say?

If life is so good why do people risk their lives, risk getting raped and left for dead in the dessert? Maybe it because the want to go to Disneyland what do you think? Maybe Magic Mountain?

[McHatin]

43. Sure people risk their lives

It's a risk, but not as bad as you are making it out to be. Hundreds of thousands make it across. The benefits are definitely worth the risk. Of course people will come here to make a very big wage, it doesn't mean they are starving.

Seriously though, what are the chances they'll die or get raped? That's a really weak argument. It's pretty easy to get here, there is plenty of evidence of that.

Why does Bush and big business support illegal immigration, please please tell me, since no one else with your opinion will...

[Mountainman]

46. Here in the southwest there are hundreds dying in the deserts everyday.

Females get raped daily also. We have people who volunteer to drive their 4 wheel vehicles into the desert to place water there because people will die if they didn't.

[McHatin]

48. Not according to what I've looked at

Statistics I've seen show that hundreds die annually. It's horrible, but considering hundreds of thousands are crossing annually, it really is a small percentage who die. You should check your stats there. I'm glad people volunteer to help them, it can be dangerous, but it's not as bad as you're saying.

[Mountainman]

52. You are right hundred die annally not daily

[TCJ70]

9. I'm going to repeat the other response because you didn't answer his point:

Amnesty has been offered before and didn't really solve anything because illegal immigration continued. How does amnesty solve that?

[RB TexLa]

10. I did answer, he or she can build a fence, and even get a gun and go to the border

if they are that worried.

[McHatin]

13. Why don't you try actually answering

Are you offended by discussion?

[RB TexLa]

15. I am answering for the third time. You can help with the fence, get a gun, put out poison

a number of things you can do since it is of concern to you. It's not of concern to me so nothing for me to do.

[TCJ70]

14. Are you an open borders person? n/t

[RB TexLa]

17. Not really, just not concerned about stopping people who want to better their lives

by coming to work here.

[McHatin]

20. Nothing against that

But I don't think you are being very practical about it. It is a more complex issue than that. For example, by continuing to exploit illegal immigrants and profit from them, US businesses are helping to keep the status quo in countries such as Mexico and ensuring conditions do not improve there.

[Andy823]

38. Would you think the same

If you lost your job because your boss decided to hire illegals who would work for a fraction of what you would work for? They can better their lives by going through the legal process, can they not?

What about all those who "have" gone through the legal process to come here for a better life for their families, and who are not unemployed because "illegals" are also taking their jobs? Is that fair? And don't say this does not happen because I know better.

I say go after the employers who hire illegals, they are the real criminals. Those who want to come here can do so legally and they will be treated a hell of a lot better than if they came here illegally!

[Better Believe It]

16. "Illegal" Immigration Mainly Hurts Immigrants: So Legalize Them!

[McHatin]

21. We've done it before

And big business continues to profit, workers continue to be exploited, some US workers continue to see their wages deflate...

It's not quite as simple as that phrase of yours makes it out to be.

[Better Believe It]

23. And Here's The Solution

Organize Them! I think they are the key to rebuilding the labor movement. It's all about class. And class shouldn't know any boundaries.

So I don't have any "problem" with nor antagonism toward undocumented workers.

[McHatin]

24. They can't be organized until they are citizens

Another reason big business likes illegal immigration, they can't organize. Sure, once they are citizens organize them, but we need to stop the flow of illegal immigration into the country to stop the cycle. Who are we hurting by stopping illegal immigration? I know Mexico's political leaders won't like it, that's for sure, as people might actually work towards change there instead of going to the US.

[EFerrari]

25. Oh, yes they can be organized and they are being organized

by the SEIU in Los Angeles. When workers make common cause, they win.

[lonestarnot]

26. Yeah!

:applause:

[EFerrari]

31. It's genius!

:toast:

[McHatin]

28. I agree with your premise

but how do you think stopping illegal immigration will hurt the cause of workers?

I think it is harder to organize workers who are afraid of being deported than US citizens.

[EFerrari]

30. You cannot stop illegal immigration until

the United States government stops screwing with democracy in Latin America.

Look around you. The most recent latino immigrants usually come from the last place our government tried to screw in service of some corporate interest. It's not rocket science.

[McHatin]

35. The US used to screw with Latin America a lot

And there was little illegal immigration then. You are making a faulty connection. I do agree the US has screwed with Latin America democracy in the past, but democracy does not automatically bring economic prosperity. Illegal immigration is not a product of US foreign policy, it is a product of lax immigration policy and economic conditions as well as proximity and easy entry. It is the product of a system that accommodates and encourages illegal immigration at the expense of US workers and for big business.

Even if I believed illegal immigration was mainly the product of US foreign policy, I'd still want to stop it, considering it is helping big business and hurting workers...

[EFerrari]

39. In the past? BushCo helped steal the last Mexican election

for the conservative.

And yes, illegal immigration is directly a result of US foreign policy.

I don't now how to tell you this, but people do not want to leave their homes to come here and suffer this racist, exploiting culture except, they need to eat and to feed their families, which we have made impossible for them in their homes.

[McHatin]

45. Sorry, don't believe you

And even if I did, it still doesn't explain why workers would come to the US. Remember back in the 1800s when people immigrated from Europe for a better life? Guess what, it had nothing to do with their home country's foreign policy and everything to do with economic and social conditions of their country.

And I really doubt they are suffering here much, the ones I have met seem to like it a lot. They definitely don't seem to be suffering from racism, though some I have met are quite racist and homophobic.

[EFerrari]

50. You don't have to believe me or anything.

You could find out on your own. If you were serious, that is, which you clearly are not.

[Fumesucker]

27. Illegal immigrants don't seem to think immigrating illegally hurts them..

If they did, there wouldn't be so many of them here.

[McHatin]

33. True

Illegal immigrants are a beneficiary of the current system (somewhat). They help enable big business to ignore labor practices and lower wages, both in this country and often in their home countries as well. Of course, they're just here for the higher wages, they don't know they're doing this. And they are hurting some US workers. None of it is intentional, but overall, they are hurting workers and helping big business with their illegal status.

[Mountainman]

32. Does anyone really believe that low wages are the fault of illegal immigration?

That's just scapegoating a bunch of people. Union busting begun long before illegal immigration had any effect on wages. Non union construction workers who were not illegals worked for less than union workers did long before illegal immigration had any effect on wages.

I think it is just sickening the way some of us blame illegals for all the troubles in our lives. If you chose to remain unskilled you chose to compete with an ever increasing mass of people and you will never make a good wage illegal being here or not!

I am disappointed at a board were we care more about animals being mistreated than we do about people just because the way they got here.

If you would see that all of us are in this fight together and joined together rather than let the man pit us against each other we would be too fucking powerful to mess with!

Several OP's this week are like this one, feigning compassion then kicking people in the ass at the end.

Either you are compassionate or you are not, you don't get to pick who you are compassionate toward.


Do any of you realize the power the illegals can muster? Do you know about the living wage laws put in place in Santa Monica and Los Angeles? Did you see the millions marching in the streets? How many of us can put that kind of power in place. NONE OF US! You know why? Because you sit on your asses and piss and moan that your being treated unfairly by someone! No one is going to come to your rescue. Get off you pitty pots and quit blaming others and get your ass in the streets!


Everything that illegals gain for themselves in the way of fairness accrues to all of us! We all could be making a living wage if we stuck together! What a bunch of fools we are!

[McHatin]

42. Did you read what I wrote?

I said only some workers wages are hurt by illegal immigrants, and yes, it is true.

If you want to side with Bush and big business, and say things like...

"If you chose to remain unskilled you chose to compete with an ever increasing mass of people and you will never make a good wage illegal being here or not!"

...it makes you sound like a "compassionate" conservative. Why oh why does Bush and big business support illegal immigration???? Ask yourself that.

[Mountainman]

44. The problem is that sometimes the conservatives have a good point.

It's true that if you remain unskilled you will find it tougher and tougher to make a living wage. That is neither right or left it us just the facts.

I don't get it. Do you think some saint of a left wing persuasion is going to take us back to the days were everyone could go out and find work no matter what their skills were? Dream on.

The trouble with so many of us on the left is that we are in as much denial as freepers are about the shit they believe in.

I say it over and over and get called a conservative but the truth is that you are responsible for much of what happens to you.

Being a Dem doesn't mean you leave person responsibility in the trash can!

It is also true that illegals do work we don't want to do. That isn't supporting illegal immigration it is the truth! Farm labor has always been done by migrants. Whether from Oklahoma in the dust bowl days to illegals today. The Chinese built the railroads from Sacramento to Omaha. Why? Because there wasn't anyone else to do the work. Times don't change much nor do opinions of those living in them.

[McHatin]

47. I understand what you're saying

It is actually true in this globalized economy that unskilled workers are hurting. It is smart for people to get educated and do something else. All I am saying is that some people have no choice. It is the job they've been doing for years and they can't afford to educate themselves or it is too late or they can't move etc. etc.

I think we should at the very least give everyone who works hard a livable wage, whatever the changes in the global economy. After all, it is not the fault of unskilled workers that the global economy changed. People will adapt to the new conditions, but until that happens, at least give a cushion to the sector of the economy that is getting hurt through no fault of their own. As it is, illegal immigration is a somewhat controllable thing that the government ignores because it helps big business.

[Mountainman]

49. I agree on the livable wage but it won't happen by us fighting each other.

Corporations only recognize the power people have in numbers. There is a reason they hate unions. We need to grow the labor movement all over the globe! We need global workers organizations. I belong to the SEIU and we are all the time getting wage increases. The clerical workers at the county I work for are all going to get from 3.5% to 6.5% raises retroactive to May 19th because the union bargained with the county supervisors.

My point is that we have to work together instead of fighting each other. That is a big distraction and the corporations love to keep us at each other's throats rather than at theirs.