Why do so many DUers think all our enemies are gay?

[LeftCoast]

I've been around DU for some time and I have seen virtually every single republican referred to as gay at some point or other. It's offensive, hurtful and obnoxious but most of all it is inaccurate. It is also against the rules.

Please stop making the GLBT community feel unwelcome at DU by making these references.

[The Magistrate]

1. It Is A Pretty Offensive Reflex, Sir, That People Ought To Drop

And one that people ought to alert on when encountered here.

[LeftCoast]

4. Agreed, Sir!

:hi:

[JackBeck]

7. Thank you.

And your mod locks on these threads have been wonderful to read.

[terrya]

10. Thank you, Sir!

I am NOT going to let this thread drop out of sight.

Thank you, Sir, for your diligence in removing these kinds of posts. And thank the other mods as well.

[napi21]

2. I don't think all Pubs are referred to as gay. The ones I've heard about

appear to be fairly wellknown in their local districts. I also doubt Duers would be ragging on them for being gay if they weren't such hypocrits and constantly slamming the gay community in their politics!

[LeftCoast]

5. I've seen them all referred to as gay

Bush, Cheney, Condi, hell even Scotty. You name the name and I've seen some snide comment about their sexuality.

[Lex]

8. Here's just a few: Bush, Rumsfeld, Rove, Fred Phelps,

all gay. Didn't you know?

[NewJeffCT]

81. Unfortunately, Phelps is a Democrat

You wouldn't know it by his politics, obviously.

but, I understand your point.

[we can do it]

78. I Think You Somehow Missed the Point

The OP was referring to calling rethugs gay as a derrogatory term.

:)

[islandmkl]

3. fine post...

why anyone would want to insult gay people by equating them to republicans is beyond the pale...

and, as you state, the gay-bashing in any direction is against the rules...

[LeftCoast]

12. Thanks islandmkl

I think the primary issue is that people are trying to insult republicans by referring to them as gay. THAT's what I find offensive.

[terrya]

6. Thank you for posting this, LeftCoast. Recommended.

What you're talking about IS hurtful, it IS obnoxious and it IS offensive. Sometimes, as a gay man and a DUer, I feel as though I'm not welcome around here. And dammit, this IS supposed to be a progressive site.

[LeftCoast]

14. Thanks Terry

Ditto on being made to feel unwelcome.

:hug:

[juajen]

31. I'm glad to say I have never done this, and agree that it is

reprehensible for anyone to do this. But, you know what Forrest says, "Progressive is as progressive does!" I know a lot of people who feel unwelcome here, now, who are only guilty of supporting a different candidate. You know who they are.

I suggest that everyone should take a page from the Magistrate's book. I don't believe we support the same candidate, but I certainly could never be sure by his actions. He is unfailingly polite, even more so when he disagrees with you. DU is a better place when people of his ilk reside here.

I'm sorry for any one who comes here, in good faith, and is made to feel small. I suggest that everyone try to be more polite, even when disagreeing with some one.

BTW, I know that we have had republicans who posted on this board, and were treated well. While it is the Democratic Underground, the door is open to reasonable people from all walks of life, though you certainly would question this if you visited now. This is the worst time I have ever been through on DU, since I became a member in early 2002.

[AlCzervik]

9. that word is thrown around here like an insult all the time.

it pisses me off.

[Lex]

13. . . . but it's the hypocrisy!!111 (NOT).

nt

[semillama]

83. Yeah, I agree.

If it's really the hypocrisy, then shouldn't they be labeled as "hypocrites" instead of "TEH GHEI!!!"?

[mikelgb]

11. I saw your reply in the caption thread...

I was going to say "lighten up" because I don't see any real harm in Jeff Gannon jokes...

these things don't personally bother me, but in a broader sense you are right, equating being gay with an insult or even a joke isn't helpful toward the goal full acceptance in society

[LeftCoast]

18. It's the incessant drum-beat that over time makes us feel unwelcome here

Death by a thousand cuts if you will...

[mikelgb]

39. I never really feel unwelcome here, but I understand

[IndianaJones]

15. because so many DU'ers are homophobic. nt.

[Indenturedebtor]

16. I don't think it's intended as the way you encounter it in the real world.

We joke about it because hundreds of Republican politicians who are militantly anti-gay, are found to be gay AND half of them are "not really gay" but like small boys...

Personally I think you'll have a pretty hard time finding someone here at DU that hates/looks down on gay people. But I would bet that pretty much all of us have a real axe to grind with repressed homosexuals who try to eat their own.

[LeftCoast]

20. Clearly there have been a number of high profile anti-gay repubs who have been outed

That doesn't excuse the bush is gay stuff.

The whole hypocrisy argument only works if the person is actually gay. Otherwise it's just homophobic.

[KSinTX]

63. If actually gay OR engaging in homosexual activity

as in the now infamous case of Larry Craig, who went on record demonizing homosexual behavior. Then otherwise it's just homophobic. Bush references count in that latter instance.

[havocmom]

22. Yes, not about gay. About the hypocrisy of many GOP wags pandering to religious right

instead of being honest. Not unlike the hypocrisy of the Chicken Hawks who pander to the Military Industrial Complex and voters prone to buy into jingoistic pap. All for war so long as the fighting is done by others.

It's the hypocrisy. And the possibility that GOP family values con artists living in closets are subject to manipulation through blackmail

I am all for the goal of a society that doesn't bother with personal preferences in their love life. Reality is, too many are threatened for having their own preferences by a sick society.

[King Coal]

25. Bingo, Mom. You nailed it.

[bettyellen]

79. no she's not, that's homophobic bullshit, actually.

way to miss the point.

[uppityperson]

52. Then they need to be called "hypocrites", not gay. eom

[Odious justice]

17. Is it an insult or an attribute correlated with that person's outspoken

beliefs that homosexuality is wrong/abhorrent? A lot of homophobic people have turned out to be gay. If it's being used as an insult-yeah, that insensitive and has no place amongst intelligent people. But there are a lot of people on the right that may be gay(Rove, Drudge) and others (Craig) who are.

[LeftCoast]

21. Unless you are male and have had personal sexual congress with Rove or Drudge

then you don't know they are gay and to then call them gay (esp. with the usual finger pointing and giggling that seems to go along with that) is just throwing insults.

[Odious justice]

26. Is it?

I'm not gay, but it seems a bit uncouth when someone uses their position in the media or government to harm homosexuals-when they are gay themselves. It's hypocritical to say the least. A textbook definition of homophobia would indicate that some of the most violent anti-gay folks are gay themselves. The biggest proponents of anti-gay legislation and behavior could be compensating for their own homosexual tendencies. Who was that Evangelical preacher-the Senator- the congressman? It's not really that short of a list.

And, when Rove is the single dominant factor behind all the anti-gay marriage ballot initiatives in 2004(which brought out the Republican vote), is it wrong to speculate about his motivation if there is evidence that he himself is gay?

I don't see it as an insult if you're examining a motivation for a pattern of behavior. Context would be imperative to any remarks made I suppose.

[Odious justice]

27. Is it?

I'm not gay, but it seems a bit uncouth when someone uses their position in the media or government to harm homosexuals-when they are gay themselves. It's hypocritical to say the least. A textbook definition of homophobia would indicate that some of the most violent anti-gay folks are gay themselves. The biggest proponents of anti-gay legislation and behavior could be compensating for their own homosexual tendencies. Who was that Evangelical preacher-the Senator- the congressman? It's not really that short of a list.

And, when Rove is the single dominant factor behind all the anti-gay marriage ballot initiatives in 2004(which brought out the Republican vote), is it wrong to speculate about his motivation if there is evidence that he himself is gay?

I don't see it as an insult if you're examining a motivation for a pattern of behavior. Context would be imperative to any remarks made I suppose.

[LeftCoast]

29. The hypocrisy argument only works if the person is gay

Otherwise that person is not a hypocrite, but rather is a bigot.

That does not give you a license to refer to all republicans as gay.

[Odious justice]

30. I agree.

To call an entire class of people "gay" would connotate an insult based up popular contexts of the word when applied broadly.

[JackBeck]

32. There is no "textbook definition" that states homophobes

are themselves gay.

The only study that was ever done to try and prove that can easily be debunked, and has been debunked around here numerous times.

I think what may factor into the equation is that the media tends to focus more on exploitive stories like a hypocritical, closeted Republican because it's a more scandalous story partly because of the hypocrisy. In turn, the media makes it look as though this happens a lot more than it actually occurs.

I've already seen posters over the last hour claim that HUNDREDS (!) of Republicans have been caught in these scandals, which is simply untrue. It's the hyperbole that pisses a lot of us off, as well.

[Odious justice]

37. not all homophobes are gay

but some are. That's not an insult, it a demonstrable fact. It's interesting how a few high profile people who have been feverently intolerant of homosexuality are also gay(Larry Craig, Haggard, Gannon). I would not say that all people who are homphobic are gay. I would go further and say that such a statement would be foolish.

[JackBeck]

38. Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, some anti-gay figureheads have turned out to be bi-sexual or gay, which I believe mostly involve leftover issues stemming from the closet. And I also believe, that this, coupled with the media's obsession over a same-sex scandal, once again doesn't address the root cause of why these things happen in the first place. Rather, these scandals tend to make the public believe that this happens a lot more that it actually does.

[ProfessorGAC]

19. Not Me

I don't think anyone is gay or straight. Just don't care one way or the other.

I do think the people to whom you are referring are evil, stupid, or both.
The Professor

[LeftCoast]

23. I won't disagree with you there!

Personally I vote for evil and stupid. :)

[eShirl]

24. Because Republicans can be gay, too?

who ever said all?

[LeftCoast]

28. I've seen virtually every single one referred to as gay

Additionally, while you are correct in saying that republicans can be gay clearly not every single one is. Would it be accurate to refer to Bush as Jewish or black simply because there are black or Jewish republicans?

[eShirl]

34. I didn't realize "so many" DUers claim Bush is gay

then again I mostly just skim thread titles here

[LeftCoast]

36. It is a steady drum-beat year after year

with the same excuses as to why it's ok.

"It's just a joke" Not a funny one
"It's the hypocrisy" No, it's called bigotry.
etc...

[BR_Parkway]

44. Did it ever occur to you that there's a wish for the current person being

referred to as gay to be taken down by the scandal it would cause based on their hypocrisy?

If Bush, or Cheney or whomever was "outed" for being closet Jewish, no one but a few of the fringe Baptists would care.

But if it really was him being visited by Gannon/Guckert - it might be the one thing that would cause enough backlash to remove him from office - lawbreaking, lying us into war and general war crimes certainly haven't been enough to do it.

That being said, I've seen some rather juvenile posts - but I don't equate all of those as being homophobic or that I'm somehow unwelcome here. And I've seen a few that I consider very anti-gay.

Maybe I have thicker skin or you've had some negative experiences that I haven't - maybe it's the years of being forwarded every gay joke that lands in my father's inbox, in spite of him having a very close relationship with my partner. Some folks just don't get what may or may not be offensive to others - it doesn't mean that they hate gay folks, just that they aren't really tuned in to the people around them very well (my dad, in spite of a dozen years of trying to get him to understand - love him dearly, but he's just really insensitive to a lot of issues - not just LGBT ones)

If you're not having much luck in getting others to understand why you feel insulted by these types of comments (my assumption from reading your posts in this and various other threads) perhaps it's time to re-evaluate your approach.

I'm concerned for a number of reasons. Personally, I have never felt unwelcome here - but I have run into a couple of assholes over the years and I did bristle at Skinner's initial post re the Best of DU threads - but overall, I've always felt welcomed and I don't like being included when someone else sounds as though they are speaking on behalf of me simply because I am part of the LGBT DU community.

Usually when I've seen some of the asshole's posting, I saw a lot more LGBT allies here taking quite good care of them in setting them straight. I'd hate to lose the support of those allies and I worry that we might to some degree when I read through some of the responses that sound a little like "chicken little" or "mountain out of molehill" to me.

Finally, I notice that the tone of the responses to some of the posts that you (and others) are finding objectionable sound/read bitter in tone - not that I don't understand the frustration, but I've always found it helpful to use the "more bees with honey than vinegar" approach to get other's to see my side of things.

I hope this helps you accomplish getting some others educated about the things you're finding offensive.

[LeftCoast]

46. I can't speak for every LGBTer here, but personally I'm tired of explaining this away

I'm tired of trying to be nice about it. I'm tired of this being brushed under the rug. Tired of it being explained away as fighting 'hypocrisy' when that argument makes no sense.

I suppose it might be better if I could read the same insulting comments over and over again without getting angry. Of course, having many of those posters tell me my opinion is worthless - that I should 'lighten up' probably doesn't help.

So, to get back to your original point...yeah, a lot of people probably do wish that Gannon was visiting Bush in some sort of homosexual tryst however, they need to understand how insulting many of us feel when we see OVER and OVER again the same assertion - that Bush is gay, that Condi is gay, that Rumsfeld is gay, etc ad nauseum. How many times do I have to refute this before I'm allowed to be angry? How many times do I have to read these before I can say - You know what...gays and lesbians are not really welcome here. I don't see to many heterosexual DUers speaking up in our favor so what am I supposed to think?

:shrug:

[ismnotwasm]

33. For some, it evidently is an acceptable insult

People with personal gender issues, maybe ie. fears of being unmasculine, or unfeminine (by false societal standards)

When you use "gay" as though lessening someone's value, not only is it mean, but outright dangerous to the GLBT community.

[CaptJasHook]

35. It goes way back. I have to fight this every day as a middle school teacher.

Sad how little progress we seem to be making on the basics of politeness, dignity and respect.

Thank you entertainment industry.

[Dogtown]

40. Thanks, LeftCoast

That needed to be said.

The phrase, "That's so gay" disturbs me as much as the "N" word used to.

These phrases are coined to dehumanize the target population and their use perpetuates the stereotypes so effectively that it can pervade even this organization, based as it is on progressive thought. Progressives that use them demean themselves.

I physically cringe at the pain our gay members must feel when someone posts an "epithet" about an opposition member that applies crudely to some of our finest members.

Variations on the "bitch" meme are equally repulsive.

Thanks again.

Recommended

:hi:

[LeftCoast]

41. Thank you Dogtown

:hi:

[RedCappedBandit]

42. Because even liberals can be introverted homophobes?

[Lerkfish]

43. I guess I have to pay more attention

I haven't seen as many as you have, but I'll be on the lookout.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

45. I've always hated the assumption that kneejerk homophobes are closeted gays.

Maybe some are, but the majority I have known have been straight people. Most of them ARE raging misogynists, which I think has a lot to do with their bigotry toward people who deviate from "proper" gender roles in any way.

[populistdriven]

47. What about the ones that actually are gay and hypocrites (being against equal rights etc)?

Pointing this out is fair game here at DU isn't it?

[LeftCoast]

48. I've got no problem with that.

Sen. Larry Craig being a perfect example.

[pingzing58]

49. Teens use the word gay as a cut low or put down. I don't let them use it around me.

[Hydra]

50. Frankly, a disproportionate number of Republican officeholders are

And many of the the rest seem to have predilections that I'd rather not know about.

Stating simple fact is hardly a reason to get outraged, and I've lost count of how many things I've proven by conjecture based on evidence available that people have attempted to disregard for their own reasons- this includes Jeff Gannon and the call boys at the White House.

IMO, it doesn't matter to me who they share a bed with as long as they aren't attempting to appear otherwise for political gain. The fact that Bushco seems to think it's fine for them to do what they want but allowing persecution of the same for others is unacceptable.

Some of us straights are honestly rooting for you, but assuming that we attribute their assholishness to their bedpartner arrangements is not fair in all cases- I simply believe they are murderous assholes, myself.

[Book Lover]

59. If you are asserting that more than 10% of republican officeholders are gay,

I'd like to see your proof.

[Hydra]

61. I'm sure there are at least that many who have been in public scandals

And I'm sure it's more like 30%, which as I've stated is no big deal- there are a disproportionate number of closet gays where I live due to religious persecution, which I might add, is made possible by the people I mentioned in the GOP.

[Book Lover]

62. So you got no proof

Just your gut feeling. 'kay.

[Hydra]

65. I don't feel like looking it up with 5 minutes left at work

Besides, you have the easy job- you get to call my credibility into question with no work of your own. Thanks for trolling.

[baby_mouse]

88. But youre the one making the assertion, Hydra.

...leading the average reader to assume you know what you're talking about. You cant stand on a soapbox and shout and accuse other people of trolling when they ask you what you're talking about, that doesn't make any sense.

[Chulanowa]

51. There's gay... And then there's Republican gay

Republicans aren't gay. That is, they aren't attracted to other men, they don't want a relationship, anything actual, normal gay people want. Rather the Republicans see homosexual sex as degrading and perverse... And they indulge because they want to feel like degraded perverts.

"Republican gay" isn't a sexual orientation. It's a masochist fetish.

[Toasterlad]

66. Rolling My Eyes Right Out of My Head.

The way a person views sex has absolutely no bearing on their sexual orientation. If a man is sexually attracted to other men, he's a homosexual. Whether or not he's self-loathing is beside the point.

Far, FAR more offensive to me than saying "So-and-So is such a homophobic asshole, he must be gay himself!" is saying "So-and-So isn't gay, because REAL gay people don't act that way!"

Straight people have no monopoly on hypocrisy or evil. The idea that "gay" is inherently good is just as dangerous in it's own way as "gay" is inherently bad. "Gay" is, as a characteristic, neutral. PEOPLE are good or bad. And gay people are people.

:rant:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. Because of the gay prostitutes, wide stances, and harassed congressional pages?

Other than that, I've no idea.

[FreeState]

55. But using ones sexual orientation as an insult - no matter who they are -

hurts all GLBT persons. Homosexuality is not a negative and implying it is because the person is a hypocrite just furthers negative stereotypes and feelings towards all gays and lesbians IMO. Its exactly like attacking Alan Keyes by belittling his being black because of his racism - hypocrisy is no excuse.

That and I am sure there are just as many GLBT persons who are democrats that are just as crooked as the high profile republican gays of late.

[Toasterlad]

85. There Are Lots More Straight Republican Sex Scandals Than Gay Ones

How come no one ever says, "What a pervert! He must be straight!"? Besides me, I mean.

[FreeState]

54. Its not just that they think they are gay - its that they view gay as a negative that can be

justified by their disapproval and/or hate of our enemies. Sickening if you ask me...

[LeftyMom]

56. Laziness and wishful thinking.

Deep down, they want the rightards to self-immolate in juicy, hypocritical scandals, because it's easier than defeating them through hard work.

[Hydra]

57. You're kidding, right?

As I told someone yesterday, a turtle in a suit could beat McCain were it not for election fraud.

Enforcing the law isn't hard work either- assuming a large enough number of people actually think the law matters...which is apparently very small.

[Mimosa]

58. Using 'gay' or 'bisexual' as derogatory is sometimes idiotic and unimaginative

Imputing gayness to a political figure to ridicule him or her shows the person doing it isn't very bright. I remember a few years ago someleftists on certain forums used to claim 'W' is a closeted bisexual and Jeff Gannon was his rent boy.

I'd say if you don't know, don't make it up. But on the other hand some gay guys on the forum I co-administer had made up some real funnies based on the premise.

Straights ought to consider that there's nothing automatically humourous or degrading about being gay or bisexual.

I'm bi and I'm not hypersensitive about anything which is truly humourous though. I don't look out to be offended either.

[populistdriven]

67. Agreed, It points to a lack of imagination

[Book Lover]

60. LC, thank you so much for this thread

Fight the good fight.

[Ahpook]

64. I see that term thrown around quite a bit as well.

It's the new thing to say if you are trying to cut someone, or if you find something you dislike.

Odd isn't it?

[Honeycombe8]

68. I've read a lot of DU posts over the years. I've not noticed any such thing.

I've noticed that some are referred to as gay, when in fact they are gay, and when the politician has made morality a part of his campaign or mission. That is appropriate, of course, because it shows the hypocrisy. It could be about anything else (like being a prostitute-customer, when you campaign on religious and moral grounds).

But I haven't read any posts calling Republicans gay just for the heck of it. Is that what you mean? Like they're using it in a derogatory way?

[Toasterlad]

69. Um, No Offense, But...Are You SURE You've Been Reading DU?

ANY time ANY Republican has anything to DO with a homosexual issue - regardless of whether they're gay or not - a least half a dozen wags run a "he must be GAY!" post up the flagpole. I can't imagine ANYONE who's paying attention missing the phenomenon.

P.S. I'm going to see your movie on Saturday! I don't care WHAT the reviewers say!

[Honeycombe8]

72. Yes. For about 6 years. .....What movie? nt

[Toasterlad]

84. Kingdom of the Crystal Skull!

I hope that delightful Short Round is in this one. Wait...he's probably about 30 now. Maybe he has a son!

[cephalexin]

70. I've seen Fred Phelps called gay hundreds of times here.

I don't actually know whether he is or not but I sure hope not...we have enough problems without having that asshole in "our camp", as it were. But he's actually a Democrat which makes things all the worse. :shrug:

[Mimosa]

71. Phelps is a psychotic and not particularly political

[cephalexin]

74. That's true, but it doesn't affect my observation.

:D

[JackBeck]

77. Well, he did run for office in the 90's as a Democrat.

Then again, Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman also considered themselves Democrats, so I guess we really are a big tent party.

[Honeycombe8]

73. Never heard of the guy. nt

[cephalexin]

75. Consider yourself fortunate!

:-)

[baby_mouse]

89. You've been reading DU for 6 years and have never heard of Fred Phelps?

I suppose I must take you at your word, sir.

[NewJeffCT]

80. I'm not gay, but I have noticed it

A lot of DUers seem to enjoy the implication that certain Republicans are gay - look at all the speculation about who Jeff Gannon was visiting in the White House - Bush, Rove, McClellan, etc.

If it was a female prostitute visiting the White House, there would certainly have been speculation, but I don't think it would have been quite as titillating.

Now, some of that has to do with the hypocrisy of the "family values" anti-gay party consorting with a gay male hooker... but, I often got the impression that people were a little too enthusiastic about it.

[Zuiderelle]

86. Then you haven't been reading closely. It happens ALL THE TIME.

[xchrom]

76. recommend -- it's how liberal/progressives get to work out

their own homophobia.

it's the last frontier so to speak.

[Echo In Light]

82. "Gay," "conspiracy theorist," "delusional," "troll," "freeper;" the list goes on

[Zuiderelle]

87. Case in point. You put "gay" together with conspiracy theorist, delusional, troll and freeper.

Gay is NOT an insult. I'm tired of people using it as one. The others in your list are insults.

[TheFarseer]

90. you're right

and so what if they are? It's entirely coincidental to them being an asshole.