Why the tax rebates won't work - proof we sent a check to big oil

[TwixVoy]

"Investors expecting a boost for the economy in the second half of this year from $168 billion in emergency tax rebates are due for a crude awakening.

New research suggests that most of the money originally expected to go to the likes of Wal-Mart Stores (WMT, news, msgs), Ford Motor (F, news, msgs) and Starwood Hotels (HOT, news, msgs) to ward off a recession will go straight to Saudi Arabia, Canada and Nigeria as consumers see an ever-larger share of their wallets sucked into their vehicles' gas tanks.

Unless federal authorities can come up with fresh ways of flooding money into the economy, it is quite possible that by the time we're in the thick of another earnings season in six weeks, we'll look back on May as the good old days when the market was down only 5% for the year.

With that in mind, now consider that estimated "growth" for the second quarter now stands at a negative 7%. Just two months ago, the expectation was for a 2% contraction. So figure expectations for contraction will likely fall to the 10% range by July 1 and then sink from there to as low as 20% as fuel and raw material costs snag a larger and larger portion of the amount of money that individuals and companies had once planned to spend on goods and services."

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/SuperModels/CanFedFundsFightBackTheTide.aspx




We just sent big oil a HUGE FREAKING CHECK PEOPLE!


I spent my $300 rebate on two trips to the grocery store and a fill up. So I am now asking the question... ok... what now?

[truedelphi]

1. Think Green like they did in Brazil. They did ethanol the correct way

And in just less than a decade they have all their vehicles running on the WASTE matter from the sugar cane crops.
Hasn't driven the cost of food up,and has allowed them to be dependent only on their own ethanol producers - not on foreign companies.

They know we are in a much greater version of doom than Bush has portrayed - one far too big for a few surplus checks to handle. Meanwhile their economy is in recovery mode.

[elocs]

3. Please, actually study and try and understand about ethanol and not just the PR.

From: http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/apr2006/bw20060427_493909_page_3.htm

Epilogue: Get this Wasteful Show Off the Road

The other negative aspect of this inefficient fuel is that numerous studies have found that ethanol creates less energy than is required to make it. Other studies have found that ethanol creates "slightly" more energy than is used in its production. Yet not one of these studies takes into account that when E85 is used, the vehicle's fuel efficiency drops by at least 25% -- and possibly by as much as 40%. Using any of the accredited studies as a baseline in an energy-efficiency equation, ethanol when used as a fuel is a net energy waste.

Furthermore, no one has even considered the severe disruption in the nation's fuel distribution that mandating a move into ethanol would cause. Over the past month, gas stations from Dallas to Philadelphia and parts of Massachusetts have had their tanks run dry due to a lack of ethanol to blend. The newswires have been filled with stories bemoaning the shortage of trucks, drivers, railcars, and barges to ship the product. Ethanol can't be blended at refineries and pumped through the nation's gasoline pipelines.

The recent price spikes for gasoline have forcibly reminded the people of Chicago and Wisconsin of what happened when ethanol was forced on them during the summer of 2000. Moreover, the promise of energy independence that Brazil has explored through ethanol is widely misunderstood. Recently a Brazilian official, commenting on our third and most recent attempted conversion to ethanol, said that when Brazil tried using agricultural crops for ethanol, it achieved only a 1:1.20 energy conversion rate, too low to be worth the effort.

FINAL BOW?

On the other hand, ethanol from sugar cane delivered 1:8 energy conversion, which met the national mandate. Unfortunately for us, sugar cane isn't a viable crop in the climate of our nation's heartland. But the part of Brazil's quest for energy independence that the media usually overlooks is that ethanol wasn't the only fuel source the country was working on: Its other, more important, thrust was to find more oil. To that end, last week Brazil's P50 offshore oil platform was turned on. Its anticipated daily output is high enough to make Brazil totally oil independent.

More smog, infinitely worse gas mileage, huge problems in distribution, and skyrocketing prices for gasoline. Maybe now that we're witnessing the third act in America's ethanol play, the upcoming epilogue will close this show forever. Even great advertising works only if the product does.

There is much more to this article (which is 2 years old) and much more to be learned about what ethanol is truly all about compared to the PR job that people get about it. Here in the midwest people love ethanol because it raises the price of corn. Since ethanol reduces fuel efficiency by at least 25%, more gallons of ethanol will be required to go the same distance as gas so that will not save anybody any money. Also in Brazil there is the problem of the rain forest being cleared to raise sugar cane (not much sugar cane grown in this country). People here at DU would not swallow some political candidate's PR hook, line, and sinker so why be so quick to do it about ethanol?

[Mojorabbit]

6. I am half trashed

but I live in Fl and we grow a good amount of sugarcane here. Would that not be a viable way to make ethanol?

[elocs]

7. You would need way, way, way more land than Florida has to grow the ethanol this country would need.

And that is just the beginning of the ethanol problems.

[truedelphi]

17. If the waste from every crop in the USA were converted to ethanol

We would all be in hog heaven. If ethanol can take the nation of Brazil, whose inflation index was knocking it to the gutter some ten years ago, and bring it to full recovery, I see no reason other than Big Oil's hold on our nation to keep us from following Brazil's approach.

BTW DU'er elocs quotes from "Business Week", which is hardly an independent source of news. Would be more correctly called "Big Oil, Big Pharma Big Corporate Control Week!"

[FogerRox]

23. Give me a fucking break

"If the waste from every crop in the USA"

Dude, there isnt enough arable land in the USA to produce enough ethanol to satisfy our liquid fuel needs. Using only the waste from crops means even less ethanol.

The US uses about 20 million barrels of oil a day, waste from crops might account for 100-150k barrels a day, so where do we get the other 19.1 million BPD ?

Dont even start me on EROEI, BTU's or thermodynamics.

[ColbertWatcher]

10. The so-called problem with ethanol that you're talking about...

...is about the first generation of ethanol.

Do you remember when VCRs first came out? Do you remember how big they were? Do you remember how they started with VHS or Beta? Do you notice how that is no longer the standard? Or state-of-the-art?

Have you ever seen pictures of the first computer? Can you see the one you're using now and how they're different?

Ethanol--in its current state--is like the first VCR or first computer. It may not be the best or most efficient, but that doesn't mean it will stay that way.

Try to imagine the next generation of ethanol or solar or wind power will give us.

Try to imagine what a real investment in alternative fuels will look like in a few years.

[elocs]

11. The problems with ethanol are not "so-called", but very real.

We are talking about ethanol here and not solar or wind power.

VCRs and computers are not subject to the laws of thermodynamics. Ethanol and its production is. Actually study what ethanol is all about and not simply take the pollyannish attitude that things will just get better and better.

Ethanol use adds to the smog problem in hot summers and its production, which uses a lot of water (water is a resource too), and significantly impacts the water table levels and aquifers in places such as western Minnesota. Whatever it is that is being grown for ethanol requires land or space and a lot of it--more than we have.

There's more to ethanol and it production than first meet the eye and unless you are making a buck off of ethanol there is no reason to madly and blindly embrace it as the savior to allow us to continue to bee-bop everywhere in our cars and trucks.

[truedelphi]

16. Please check out my follow up comments as well

Some people are very convinced by the Big Oil controlled media that
ethanol is a Son of Satan.

That is simply not the case, in part for reasons that you point out abt the inefficiencies of the first generation of ethanol. The "experts" on ethanol will continue to point out the inefficiencies of ethanol, even if they have to make up those stats. (Please see http://www.sethreturns.com/b2evolution/blogs/index.php/a - scroll down to the second article to see how the media in this country operates at the expense of science, public health, our economy and TRUTH!)

The Big Oil media has been in a craze to knock out ethanol. To mis-educate. And in large measure they are succeeding. Because the Bigger the Lie, and the more oft repeated, the more people are influenced. And Big Oil has Big Agro on its side - when CNN went to Brazil to explore ethanol use there, although they allowed the Brazilians to point out how economically freeing the use of the alternative was to the Brazilian economy, the producers at CNN never allowed it to be known that in Brazil they will use the "Waste" from the sugar cane harvest.

In much the same way that the average American now parrots, GMO will help feed the world," the average American now "knows" that "ethanol is a rip off that makes food prices soar."

Ethanol is only a rip off if we continue to use the food kernels rather than the waste.

[truedelphi]

14. I think that the Brazilian economists would disagree with that statement

As would their engineers.

Just because American economists, and American engineers say it is so, doesn't meant that it is so.

In fact in this day and age, it probably means that the reverse is true. I come from the state of Illinois, and when ethanol first began being used, (Late 1970's) I remember how excited the corn farmers were that some of their crop could offset the oil prices affecting their truck and tractor use. I don't think they would have been that excited if the statistics you are revealing had truth to them.

You need to realize that 90% of everything in our American media is there because it supports Big Oil, or Big Banking, or the military-industrialists.

And it is also curious that the Establishment sources, always there to bad mouth ethanol, had nary a bad word to say about MTBE.

[elocs]

21. Brazil is not America. Study about ethanol for yourself.

Blaming the media or the establishment is the easy way out. You have the internet--use it. I live in Wisconsin and the farmers here love corn ethanol because it raises the price of corn. If there is a terrible crop to use to make ethanol, then corn is probably at the top of that list. Ethanol is subject to the laws of thermodynamics--simple concept. But please, don't take my word for it, or the media's word for it, or the establishment's word for it--study it for yourself.

[truedelphi]

22. You are usuing a Big Oil controlled publication to quote an article from two years ago to

Somehow try and convince me that your arguments are right??

First of all, I do agree with one point of yours - since the Big Agri Bill pushed through Congress over the winter allowed for the conversion of FOOD to ethanol, food prices are shooting up.

But that doesn't mean that ethanol is a bad idea.

We can and should be using the WASTE from the ethanol. There have been scientists on NOVA standing in the middle of a MidWerst corn field talking abt how easy it would be to use the Corn COb, and the husks to make ethanol. NOVA is a rather acclaimed TV program, and I doubt that these scientists were spouting nonsense.

And if we are using WASTE to be the source for the ethanol conversion, then the ethanol efficiency almost doesn't matter. We have plenty of food WASTE - and if it is a waste product now being used to power a car, would it matter if there was a conversion drop off of 25%? BUt another DU'er is saying in this topic that the efficiency arguments in your article are outdated - and of course nothing will stop a BIG OIL controlled publication from referring to an antiquidated article. That happened all the time with MTBE.

IMHO, all we need to do is follow Brazil's example and have the ethanol conversion occur exactly at the same place that the food crop handling occurs. In Brazil they procure the sugar from the sugar cane harvest at the same facility where the waste from this product is then converted to ethanol. So we should have the corn go somewhere, be stripped of its waste, and all at the same facility. (Having lived overseas, I was astounded when Ireturned that so much of what happens in AMerica amounts to the need for pointless car trips - in Europe the college will have an on sigte day care, so you drive to college, park the car, drop of the kid and go to school. In AMerica you have two separate destinations for those two functions of your daily life.)

[elocs]

24. There are many more places that say the same thing,

but my guess is that if a so called Big Oil publication supported the Law of Gravity that you would contest that it was true. Again, why can you not be bothered to simply go study a little bit about ethanol yourself? Evidently you cannot be bothered, but find it easier to question any sources cited. For myself, I will end this useless discussion with you.

Goodbye.

[truedelphi]

27. I cited scientists who appeared on NOVA, an acclaimed Television program n/t

[truedelphi]

15. You might find the article at this blog

"What about Truth" to be quite informative about how the lies of Big Oil are not only Big Lies, but oft repeated lies.

You need to scroll down to the second article on the blog
http://www.sethreturns.com/b2evolution/blogs/index.php/a

If it is in our main stream media and it is oft repeated - BEWARE!!

[Kazak]

18. Erm,...*ahem* I hear hemp can endlessly produce a pretty potent fuel... *cough*

Freedom is NORML.

[truedelphi]

20. You guldarn HIPPIE!

Next you'll be suggesting that people conserve!!

[glowing]

2. Most people needed about $6 to $10,000.00... the measly amount

that they gave out isn't worth a hill of beans.. It only helps pay for some groceries, keep the lights and water running, or helps pay for gas. AND it then most of that goes directly out of the country. Dumb ass Repugs and the privitizing of our resources and our people.

[madmom]

4. I heard a radio commercial today that made me go WTF?.. they were saying

now that the stimulus checks are being received you can be driving a newer vehicle, with nothing down and $199 a month so come on down yadda yadda. Now how does that work? $600 gets a car now?

[truedelphi]

19. Yes it does get you a car. The oversight now applying to

The financial terms on houses and mortgages has not yet hit the financing at the car lots.

C'mon down - bring your six hundred dollars. Bad credit - no problem, in fact, fill out this form and you may qualify for a thirty nine hundred dollar credit towards your purchase of one of our finer "previously owned" vehicles.

So the $ 600 plus your $ 3900 credit will get you a 1996 Chevy that you only need to pay $ 198 a month on for five years!

[DS1]

5. I bought another bicycle

:)

[taterguy]

12. Why do you hate Big Oil?

[DS1]

13. They started it

:)

[elocs]

8. Well the tax rebate worked great for me since I have become unemployed. n/t

[razors edge]

9. At least you got 300.

I got the bill for someone else's check and nothing more.

[cephalexin]

25. If it all went to WalMart that'd just be a waypoint to China.

...

[Miss Carly]

26. I spent mine as a down payment on a Nissan Xterra

about 3 weeks ago. Didn't get enough to make a dent in the credit cards, so said "screw it" and bought a replacement vehicle for my poor broken down beater.