My son brought home paperwork today - our public school's football camp

[Coexist]

is Christian. They have Morning Chapel, and he gets a free bible for attending.

I am torn. His entire team will be there - and he approached the coach and told him he is an Atheist. Coach said he doesn't have to attend chapel. But the coach is obviously Christian, or he wouldn't have signed up the team for this one. Do you think he will be ostracized? Viewed differently by his coaches?

He joked about being converted - I told him I didn't care, as long as he remained tolerant.

What are your thoughts?

(on edit: it is a High School, and the football camp is being held at a local university, a 4 day sleep-over camp)

[dflprincess]

1. I want to know if any tax money is being used to pay for this camp

n/t

[Coexist]

4. no - I have to shell out the $200.

and it is not mandatory -but it doesn't look good to the coaches if you don't go. And he wants to. Its a sleepover camp at a local University.

[JanMichael]

2. I think it's horrible that the public school camp is religious.

Totally wrong.

I think something should be said to the coach--there are probably other players that are uncomfortable with this also.

[Captain Angry]

3. When people offer me a free bible, I tell them...

No thanks, I just ate.

I wish people wouldn't shove their religion down other people's throats. Does your son want to go to the football camp? Or can you guys just take a summer vacation instead?

[seabeyond]

36. sounds to me like you did more shoving than the person offering a bible. i bet a simple no thanks

would have sufficed just fine.

that is all i need to say to an offer. and all i expect from my children when they are offered. i refuse to allow disrespect for any reason, and especially with a simple offer.

[goddess40]

5. Holy crap

I think that's way over the line.

[Vincardog]

6. IF you want to turn the team against your son call the ACLU. If you want to go along to get long

ask your son how he feels and go along with him.
If you are in Texas shut up and sit down.
(I only throw that in because HS football is a religion in TX)

[Coexist]

7. I don't want to make a stink, he wants to go

I am more worried about how the team and coaches will view him now. They will all know when he is the only one not showing up for chapel in the morning.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. If they are tolerant people, they won't say anything

if they are intolerant, it will be a lesson for your son in handling intolerance, one that I sincerely hope he passes successfully. I have found, interestingly enough, that religion actually has little to play in the dance of tolerance/intolerance. It appears mainly to be used as an excuse for actions by many people. You can tell who they are, because they tend to wear their religion on their sleeves.

And I bet that he won't be the only one missing chapel.

[Gormy Cuss]

26. If they're tolerant people, they'll dump the Christian emphasis.

They may have set it up thinking that all the kids are Christian and therefore it would be a bonus. As coaches they should know that having an atheist on the team means that they are setting up the potential for ostracism. There's nothing wrong with having chapel services available for the presumed majority of the kids who would be interested. The free bible offer sounds close to proselytizing to me.

[Vincardog]

22. IF he is like any of the coaches I have known it only matters if he can not perform on the field.

If he spends his "Chapel time" working out in the weight room or running wind sprints;
They will not give one little bitty shit.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

23. My little league football coach was Catholic

The entire team said the Hail Mary before and after every practice...

I did not (never quite comfortable with that prayer) I quietly sat to the side and never got any crap for it... Now its not being Atheist among Christians but a prot in an old Irish Catholic neighborhood sticks out to some degree..

[izquierdista]

31. Did they have a good passing game?

If they completed a lot of 60 yard passes, I'd say the Hail Marys were working. If not, :shrug:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

32. lol

No but the team won allot..

[goddess40]

34. Have him say "I just didn't feel like going"

He may start a trend.
I hate that these religious bullies keep winning - they're nothing but a bunch of certified assholes and it seems you are surrounded.

I've been an atheist my entire life, even when I was dragged to catholic church and classes. I was raising my kids as atheists but have recently discovered the Unitarian Universalists and wish I'd been taking my kids there from the start.

http://www.uua.org/visitors/index.shtml
Unitarian Universalism is a centuries-old, free thinking liberal religion guided by shared values. At its core, this faith emphasizes the worth and value of every person and the interconnectedness of all things.

our group is made up of mostly recovering Catholics (their words not mine) and quite a few atheists and agnostics. It gives my son a sense of belonging and community without the needed belief of the boogie man. It fills the void when kids get on the what church do you go to discussion at school.

[mac2]

8. If it's a public school there should be no morning chapel.

Go to the AU to protect your rights and stop this illegal practice.

The pressure to be of that religious group is stressful and wrong. Expecially since the coach is publically funded. If he wants a religious sports team he should teach in a religious school. No one says he can't do it but he's not allowed to use public funds to do so.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. Take it as an opportunity to teach your son

how to maintain his ideals within what could be a hostile environment. If he does have questions about what is said about religion, discuss it openly with him as an equal, and let him make up his own mind. The most interesting part of your discussion could be explaining why people are Christian. From what you wrote, I know you will do that in a tolerant manner.

I wish you both the best of luck. If he is discriminated against in any way, I would contact the coach, then the school board, and then the ACLU.

[Coexist]

13. thanks

I already sat him down and told him that when he goes, no matter what is said to him, he was not to ridicule religion. To just be kind, and notice those who are cool with his views, not those who are hostile to them.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. Excellent!

On a thread in R/T, I was talking with atheists about the idea that maybe the brains of atheists and religious folks are actually structured differently (not innately, but certain portions are stimulated and developed because of certain practices done repetitively). If this is the case, I could see how it would take some effort to communicate effectively with believers. The key to any communications then becomes to show respect towards that individual while maintaining your own self-respect.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

25. Its also an opportunity to teach your son

not to turn an uncomfortable environment into a hostile one... We all have to live with each other..

[goddess40]

10. If he doesn't go will it effect whether he plays or not next season?

If the answer is yes then it becomes a state sanctioned religious activity. Morning chapel will not be the only religious activity so don't fool yourself that your son won't be pressured to participate or be left out of other events.

[Coexist]

11. that is my main concern - not the camp, but the repercussions when the team

finds out he's not Christian.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. Yes, depending on the Christians, it can creep you out

I remember a co-worker of my husband's cornering me in the break room one day trying to "save" me when he found out I wasn't a Christian. Wouldn't listen to reason or arguments, and was trying to bully and browbeat me. It can be a very unpleasant experience.

What I HOPE happens for your son is that nothing is said. I would suggest that you and your sons have some answers ready if he is questioned, such as, "I don't share your beliefs, but I fully support your right to go to chapel, as this country is based on freedom of religion. Because of that, I know you will respect my right not to attend." Or dress it up in a way that will get through to them in a way that doesn't compromise your position on the matter.

[goddess40]

39. How about a family trip that week? nt

[wryter2000]

14. Al Franken went to a Christian private school at some point

He said a teacher got him into a private meeting and asked why he wasn't singing the hymns. Franken said he thought that would be disrespectful as he didn't believe the content. The teacher told him it would hurt his math grade, so from then on, he sang louder than anyone.

If this were required for football participation, I'd say make a humongous stink. As it is, it sucks big time. But, I'd let your son figure out how he wants to deal with it.

[lame54]

15. A christian football league? - Do all the games end in a tie?...

[Warpy]

16. You didn't say how old he is and that makes a difference

Primary school kids don't know what an atheist is, just that it's something bad. However, if he just doesn't show up for chapel, then there should be no real problem with the rest of it.

Middle school kids are animals and will tear him apart if the coach doesn't intervene with a very heavy hand. Can you count on him to do so?

If he's older than middle school, then let him make the decisions.

He sounds like a smart kid who knows what's going on. Trust him.

[Coexist]

18. sorry - he is in High School

and you are right, I am just a Mom and I worry.

[nichomachus]

20. How old is he and how resistant is he to peer pressure

Those are key questions.

The morning chapel is the least of your worries. It's easy for him to not go to that -- unless they start using it to make announcements that your son needs to know about or choose up teams for activities later in the day. They do that as a way of making sure kids show up.

However, the peer pressure at these things is intense. Most adolescents really want to belong, and when kids start grouping up, other kids want to be included in the group. That, of course, requires doing things that they do -- group prayer, bible study, whatever.

It can be very seductive. At first, it doesn't seem so bad, but before you know it, you're joining in all the "activities" that your group is doing. One thing they do is just exclude the non-conformist from everything -- "sorry, this is only for the guys in our prayer group" -- few kids can put up with the isolation.

Would you let your kid go to an unchaperoned party where you knew there was alcohol being served? This isn't far different.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

21. I would wait to see what happens..

There are many devout Christians who would not punish a kid for having different beliefs if you perceive that he is not getting treated fairly then start up the food chain with complaints

1) Coach (in private after all if its resolved here why make your son a spectacle by a public rant)
2) Principle
3) School board
4) ....

[LeftyMom]

24. This is effectively a school-sponsored activity, so it should be religiously neutral.

I know your kid doesn't want you to raise a stink, but I would say that you really owe it to the other kids, and in the long run to your son. Honestly, maintaining a fair and secular educational environment is more important than high school football.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

28. I dont know about that

when I ran CC in HS we practiced damn hard in the summer

1) The teacher received no pay
2) We received no credit
3) We did not practice on school grounds
4) It did not effect who made the team in the fall, it was all about how fast you ran

It was in no way school sponsored..

The coach loved to run, and offered kids the chance to run with him in the summer (amazing that at 52 there were only a handful of kids in the city that could keep up with him, and no I was not one of them)

[LeftyMom]

29. This is about his football camp, which does effect the school-sponsored team in the fall

It's a school-sponsored activity.

[spoony]

27. Wow, even I think that's over the line

I usually find myself sticking up for Gideons and such in these threads about religion and schools, but this was really inconsiderate of the coach to assume everyone would be alright with a religious camp.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. I'm Christian, and I think this is over the line

Aside from the fact that the whole idea of sports camp is stupid and a sign of our culture's over-the-top obsession with athletics (summer is supposed to be VACATION, not more regimentation--it's not enough that they practice after school for hours every day for half the school year?), the public school coach should not be funneling his team into a religiously-oriented camp, optional or not.

There are a lot of fundamentalists in Florida, and they think that all's fair when it comes to trying to convert people. If I had children, I would not let them anywhere near anything run by fundies, because I've heard bad things about the peer pressure that the fundamentalist kids apply on the unconverted or even on those whom they view as insufficiently "Christian."

If the coach wants the kids to go to football camp, it should be a secular one.

[Coyote_Bandit]

33. I would

encourage hm to attend chapel on the first day with the understanding that he can leave at any time and never return.

Attending chapel will not make him Christian. Becoming Christian is a conscious choice.

It is fairly likely that his absence will carry social implications. Special guests or visitors may well be given a platform in chapel. Chapel time may be used for various team building or motivational exercises. Even in the worst case, chapel will be a subject of conversation. If your son choses not to be there then he will be excluded from activities and discourse which may carry social implications.

Chapel services may offer him some context in which to understand Christian worship. It is a context that is likely to be far less formal and to carry far fewer negative ramifications than a venture out into some church denominations.

Consider this your opportunity to be involved not in helping him avoid exposure to a faith he rejects but rather in preparing to live a life that equips him to interact respectfully with people of faith while maintaining his own convictions.

I agree that tax money should not be used for this purpose. I agree that it is unfortunate that this choice has to be made. I'm not defending incorporating chapel into football camp at all. It is highly inappropriate for all but Christian school teams.

[seabeyond]

35. go for it. maybe all will walk this in the higher and atheist and christian will be one

saying, it is an opportunity for the atheist and christian to be "bigger" here. accepting of each other. we NEED that in this world today and we need it from all sides. i say encourage it, nurture it, let it be a life lesson.

my kids went to a baptist private school and we are not religious. we walked it in the higher at all times. it was hard sometimes but the lessons learned were simply kick ass, for all parties. it allowed us to be better, all of us.

and my kids were not "culted" into other beliefs. they were able to be respectful of the different views as they continued to be true to thiers

i think it is so IMPORTANT for this to start happening today. screw the divide, embrace the differences and same.

[Scooter24]

37. I don't see any harm...

but like an above poster said, use it as a teaching moment. Your son is obviously secure enough in his beliefs to approach his coach about it, something that is hard for most boys to do. I think it will be fine, have him skip chapel and just have fun. Going to camp at his age, even a Christian camp, are all about having fun and talking about parties, girls, etc.

Relax :D

[lildreamer316]

38. I think he'll be fine.

I was personally pretty secure in my beliefs (or lack of!) at that age to go to several church-sponsored things (habitat for humanity type stuff and a retreat) and not come out of it 'converted'. Actually, I had a wonderful time and thoroughly enjoyed myself.
Best of luck, either way.

[onethatcares]

40. I've always wondered,

does God chose sides in these games? Does God hate the losers, did the winners do something to please him like smoke a goat, or kill the first born child?

The song "with God on our side" kinda brings all this shit into perspective.