Mike Gravel calls for new 9/11 investigation

[Joanne98]

Former Senator Mike Gravel Calls for Independent 9/11 Investigation and Prosecution of President Bush and Vice President Cheney
The former Democratic senator from Alaska discusses his presidential campaign, his role in the releasing of the Pentagon Papers and his support for NYC 9/11 Ballot Initiative Campaign, a grassroots group seeking to place an initiative on the ballot of the November 6th general election allowing registered New York City voters to create a new commission to investigate 9/11.

Former Alaska Senator and 2008 Presidential Candidate Mike Gravel is holding a news conference in New York City today to join a call for a new independent investigation into 9/11.

Gravel will be speaking on behalf of the NYC 9/11 Ballot Initiative Campaign, a grassroots group seeking to place an initiative on the ballot of the November 6th general election allowing registered New York City voters to create a new Commission to investigate 9/11.

The group is looking to appoint between nine and fifteen commissioners on the panel to conduct the investigation. Some of the people who have reportedly already agreed to serve as commissioners include Lori Van Auken, a 9/11 widow and one of the so-called “Jersey Girls,” Lincoln Chafee, a former Republican Senator from Rhode Island, Bishop Thomas Gumbleton, a pastor in Detori, Michigan as well as former Democratic Senator, Mike Gravel who joins me today in the firehouse studio.

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/17/former_senator_mike_gravel_calls_for

[mdmc]

1. one of the good guys

:toast:

[zonmoy]

63. That I agree.

[Occam Bandage]

2. Libertarian douche.

[libnnc]

18. He's a Democrat n/t

[Occam Bandage]

25. Nope. He joined the Libertarian party. He is not in any way a Democrat.

http://www.nysun.com/national/libertarian-party-claims-mike-gravel/73620/

[TheWatcher]

29. While your strawman is amusing I would assume that you do not think there

Needs to be a thorough, Independent, REAL investigation into 9/11, instead of the farce that was the 9/11 Commission?

Not that it would surprise me in the least if you were completely comfortable and OK with the so-called "investigation" that happened previously.

I'd be shocked if you weren't.

[Occam Bandage]

30. Strawman? How did I set up a strawman? This should be interesting.

Keep in mind that a strawman is a distortion of an opponent's position, which is then defeated instead of attacking the actual position. So explain exactly how I've set up a strawman, and then I'll explain why I'm okay with the official 9/11 investigations that have occurred and which are still ongoing.

[TheWatcher]

32. Thank you for the clarification.

I just really wanted your confirmation that you concur with the government's Official Story and their line on things, which it appears, as I figured, you are.

I'm really not interested in anything beyond that, so please, no further elaboration is necessary, because if that's your line, I have no interest in hearing it.

You're grating enough as it is.

:hi:

[Occam Bandage]

36. I haven't claimed to agree or disagree with any 9/11 theories..

I've simply said that I would not find further investigations useful. This does not imply a belief in any particular hypothesized cause for 9/11, nor disbelief in any other particular hypothesized cause.

For further discussion, I'd like to see that strawman. That would demonstrate that you are a rational person capable of rational conversation, and not a ninny who names random fallacies when he sees something he doesn't like.

[TheWatcher]

41. A bit wishy-washy are we?

Why do you think there is no need for further investigation?

[Occam Bandage]

42. Nope. I just don't like having words put in my mouth.

For further discussion, I'd like to see that strawman. That would demonstrate that you are a rational person capable of rational conversation, and not a ninny who names random fallacies when he sees something he doesn't like.

[TheWatcher]

47. Fair enough.

But if you see no need for further investigation, that would usually indicate you are satisfied with the story and explanation you have been given regarding the events of that day. Now granted, that's not always the case.

Now as for looking back on what I originally posted, perhaps strawman was not the right word to use. Perhaps the way that should have been worded was I fail to see how Gravel's political affiliation has anything negative to do with wanting a new investigation regarding 9/11.

[Occam Bandage]

52. Fair enough.

I'm not completely satisfied with the official story/explanation, though I accept the basics (airplanes, al-Qaeda, hijackers, etc.). I have very little doubt that the towers fell because they were hit by airplanes; the suggestion of an American or Israeli hand in the event is unnecessary, unsupported, unlikely, and, well, narcissistic and Amero-centric.

That being said, I think there was a chain of neglect throughout the government and centered around the White House, and I think that same neglect was de-facto policy. However, given the Bush administration's similar handling of Iraq and Katrina, and given their plugged-ears defiance on climate change, the economy, and stem-cell research, I'd more believe that 9/11 was (just as in the failures from New Orleans to Iraq) a product of the erroneous and peculiar Bushie view that nothing could possibly happen unless the White House wanted it to happen.

As for the investigation, well, why stop on Sept. 12th, 2001? They continued doing the same things through the current day. I would love a full investigation of the White House's systematic (and near-deliberate) neglect throughout its entire eight years in office. I would love for the public to ask, "Why did you, over and over again, ignore all the evidence that the health, lives, safety, and well-being of Americans (and others) were being threatened? Why was there a policy of systematic neglect of all potential problems--until those problems were so large that people were dying on live television? How could there have been no self-correction? What went wrong, so that we can ensure this type of Presidency never happens again?"

Unfortunately, that investigation will not and cannot happen. We've discovered what happens with this Congress--the Republicans simply delete the evidence, delete all traces that the evidence ever existed, stall for time, flood Congress with unrelated documents, claim they can't recall anything, etc., etc. Congress can't very well demand Bush produce evidence that Congress can't prove exists.

No, there won't ever be that investigation, because they have enough legal weapons and tactics at their disposal that no matter how hard the Democrats push, the White House can build and hold a stonewall for the next six months. If there were sixty-five Democratic Senators, or if the economy were fine and the electorate was more concerned with transparent governance than with feeding their families and fueling their cars, then I'd believe an investigation would be useful.

As it stands, the last place left to meaningfully investigate is 1600 Pennsylvania Ave--and they've spent the last six years erecting barricades to investigation while covering their tracks. The information we need is locked away so deeply that the only way we'll get at it is if they decide to give it up freely. Sure, we'll continue to hold hearings and demand witnesses, but I doubt we'll get anywhere no matter how hard we push--on any front. Our best bet, sadly, is for there to be more McClellans to come forward, each adding their few pieces toward the eventual completion puzzle.

[TheWatcher]

56. Thank you for that clarification.

While you and I will have to respectfully agree to disagree regarding the Official Story, I appreciate the clarification.

I have always believed that at the very least it is LIHOP. (I assume there is no need for me to clarify the meaning of those letters, if you've been on DU long enough)

I think in the end, at the very LEAST, beyond whatever any of us believe, the only absolute truth of what we know of what really happened on that day can be boiled down to three words.....

I Don't Know.

Me personally, I think like Kennedy, we will never get to the real truth of what happened.

[Occam Bandage]

68. "we will never get to the real truth of what happened."

We can agree on that much. Truth is a scarce commodity, especially when those that possess it find it in their interest to keep it private.

[defendandprotect]

72. Rather, I think we have gotten to much of the "real truth" ---

and it's not good for the White House . . . !

Will we ever know every detail of how Cheney/Bush brought this off --- probably not.

But the framwork is there and many of the DETAILS are known --- thanks to the many

wonderful people who have been investigating this from the beginning!!!

And, thanks again to the courage and intelligence of the "Jersey Girls" --- !!!

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occam Bandage]

109. "I assume you are a Troll."

Given your penchant for random capitalization, your disjointed and vague writing, and your loose and disorganized attempt at a rebuttal, I assume you haven't passed the eleventh grade.

[TheWatcher]

49. Delete.

[Occam Bandage]

53. Hm? No, I was typing while fielding a phone call.

[TheWatcher]

54. Agreed.

That's why I deleted that. you actually DO appear to want to discuss it.

My apologies for the ire.

[Occam Bandage]

55. I'd warn you now

I'm going to be getting offline for a while, so my reply to your reply will be delayed a bit...

[TheWatcher]

57. And that's fine.

Like I said, pardon the ire, and I do appreciate your previous reply. The only thing that I would add is that you do see the, "almost deliberate neglect", in the way this Cabal deals with times of Crisis.

I would ask that you allow yourself to look BEYOND that. It isn't neglect, it's DESIGN.

People are always railing on and on about the incompetence of these people. They are mistaking Incompetence for what is deliberate.

It's the way they have always done and handled everything.

If you think about this administration from a different perspective, you would see that it has not at all been a failure.

They have succeeded in everything they have set out to do.

Bush has merely been the perfect mouthpiece, figurehead, puppet, whatever you want to call him, to help those behind him push forward an agenda.

But to get to that perspective you would have to change the way you view things, (and I think you and I have 180 degree views of how things work), which unfortunately will lead you to a more conspiratorial view of things, which I know you are unwilling to subscribe to. Which is all fine and good.

But I have to admit, for someone who I totally disagree with on the subject of 9/11, you do have some reasonable points of view that I can respect, and you are far more objective than those who have bought the Official story without question, and are unwilling to explore it any further than that.

[Winterblues]

106. To bring a person's political party when it wasn't the issue is a Straw man

Whether that person is Libertarian or Democrat is irrelevant. What he is addressing is relevant. why would you want to alter the discussion in such a way.. That my friend is the definition of Strawman...It is completely irrelevant to the conversation..

[Occam Bandage]

107. Nope. You mean "red herring." I would argue that it is in fact relevant, but

regardless, it is by no means a straw man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[Winterblues]

110. Apparently your Strawman has worked because you have people discussing

you and your motives instead of the topic at hand, which was not whether Gravel is/was a Democrat. It would be nice if you could give your eh..."educated" opinion on the 9-11 investigation. Apparently that is just too much for anyone to ask..

[Occam Bandage]

113. I appreciate your failure to click on the links provided. It always warms my heart

to have people continue to beat their hollow skulls against their earlier incorrect statements.

For my opinion on the 9/11 investigation, please see post #52.

[Grinchie]

87. Your Strawman was that Mike Gravel is a Libertarian

He may have been, but he Certainly ran as a Democrat earlier this year.

For President I believe, or was I dreaming?

[ExPatLeftist]

96. He ran as a Democrat and LATER as a Libertarian, and lost both. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

108. This is just amusing. It seems that the, er, less educated believe that

a "straw man" is "anything that is not true, or perhaps anything that is true but is not relevant to the discussion, or perhaps anything that is true but was at one point false, or perhaps anything at all."

[roody]

33. Did you listen to the interview?

He felt compelled to leave a war party.

[TheWatcher]

34. Shhhhhh. Don't disturb Pleasantville.

[Occam Bandage]

37. dupe

[Occam Bandage]

38. I was already aware of that, yes. His stating a reason for his departure from the Democratic party

does not conflict with my stating that he left the Democratic party.

Edit: Darn dupes.

[davidinalameda]

61. he was compelled to leave a party in which he was totally irrelevant

he added nothing to the debate

[zonmoy]

64. Only because the democrats keep trying to keep going toward the repuke positions

while abandoning both freedom and liberal society. And every turn the repukes keep moving further to ultimate authoritarian and ultimate corporate right wing positions. Beyond that the only things the democrats seem to do is to take a dive when the republicans rig the elections.

[truedelphi]

79. Carlin says it best:

The Republicans realize that something needs to be done. So they take a step forward and take a big shit.

Then the Democrats come along and go "This looks horrible!" So they spend the next several years re-arranging the pile of shit!

[Buzz Clik]

3. Cool! I'll get the chicken wire and the plaster of paris and build the twin towers!!!!!11one

[whatchamacallit]

6. So I guess y'all are satisfied with the "investigation" we had?

It's whatever the Bush administration says, case closed? :think:

[Buzz Clik]

14. What makes you think Gravel is going to accomplish anything?

[whatchamacallit]

26. He probably wouldn't, he doesn't have the power, but

would you support a new investigation if some members of congress or a new administration wanted it?

[TheWatcher]

31. Are you kidding me?

Something that would actually endanger the comfortable, rose-colored, Matrix that most Americans desperately need to cling to in order to function normally?

I think I need to see your Papers, Citizen. I don't like where this is going.

[WheelWalker]

78. Give him your Zig-Zags

[SidDithers]

10. Another quality 9/11 Truth experiment...

Sid

[Buzz Clik]

16. Son, I have only one word for you:

Thermite.

[ProSense]

4. Investigate 9/11?

How about investigate Iraq?

Actually, what's needed is a full investigation of the Bush administration's activities over the past seven years.

[november3rd]

5. Investigate 9/11

An investigation of 9/11 is likely to provide a lot of leads into an investigation of the attack on and occupation of Iraq.

The first Commission Report was a whitewash.

[ProSense]

7. Or it could be limiting and

confounding that the whole point gets lost.

No, use the resources wisely, Bush has to be held accountable. No wild goose chases, there is a basis for investigating his administration.

[Beam Me Up]

8. The lies of Iraq are predicated upon the lies of 9/11

Moreover, the lies of 9/11 were the foundation for their domestic policies as well. You're not going to get at those by ONLY investigating Iraq.

[ProSense]

9. No, the presumption here is that

some incredible evidence will be unearthed by focusing on 9/11.

If anything, start with Iraq and focus on war crimes, torture, presidential power, etc.

[Juche]

15. 9/11 is the lynchpin of all of that

W/o 9/11 there would have be no war in Iraq, no torture, no autocratic executive.

[burythehatchet]

22. You're one step away. If you want to reach the headwaters of this criminality

get the documents from Cheney's energy task force. Therein you will find all the answers.

[malaise]

44. I'm sure the shredder has destroyed those ages ago

Bravo Mike Gravel.

[defendandprotect]

74. Why leave out impeachment . . . and Truth Hearings . . . we need it ALL --- let's go!!!

[acmavm]

66. Investigate the secret energy meetings. That's where it all started.

[reprehensor]

91. And Afghanistan.

Let the sunshine in.

[Grinchie]

84. That's Old News.. See Kucinich's Articles of Impeachment

Too bad, frau Pelosi has taken ze Impeachment off ze Table! Yah!

[Viva_Daddy]

11. Unfortunately, another investigation will probably not settle things

The BEST we can hope for is that the "official Government conspiracy explanation" will be shown to be so full of holes that it is actually among the LEAST CREDIBLE conspiracy theories to try to explain what happened on 9/11.

[TheWatcher]

35. It already has been.

Unfortunately, the majority of the population either has no interest, refuses to see it, or cannot handle it.

[dailykoff]

80. Yes it has.

Beyond a shadow and the evidence is in just about every photograph.

[JohnyCanuck]

12. lies, propaganda, omissions and obfuscations

9/11: Cover For A Coup D'Etat?
Diary Entry by Ed Encho

SNIP

September 11th 2001. The day that will forever live in infamy as the day when the reset button was hit on over two centuries of American history and allowed for the new doctrines of preemptive war, the domestic police state and the codifying of torture into the law of the land. The real meaning as well as the cause of 9/11 continues to resonate and be debated throughout the alternative media and the blogosphere despite the sanctimonious reverence given to it by the corporate, state controlled mainstream media where those who dare to even suggest that it was blowback are shouted down by angry demagogues standing atop their electronic soapboxes. That one single day more than anything else has been used as the justification the rise of the new American fascist state and the illegal wars of aggression that feed the colossus that is the military industrial complex.

Since that horror filled, pristine Tuesday morning that was abruptly shattered as no other day in the history of our republic had ever been prior to it (I omit Pearl Harbor for the obvious reasons that it was a military target and Hawaii in 1941 was not yet an official state) we as a society have been changed forever and changed for the worse. We now torture as a matter of official policy. We allow ourselves to be spied upon by a rogue government that increasingly views dissent as sedition and treason. We have seen Habeas Corpus which had been a bedrock principle of law since the days of the Magna Carta rendered null and void. There has been an unprecedented consolidation of power in the Executive Branch and the neutered Congress has been reduced to a chattering club of irrelevant partisans with no real power or the intestinal fortitude to reassert itself as per the intentions of the founders as put forth in The Constitution.

There has sprung up a permanent and highly lucrative industry of institutionalized surveillance that has rendered privacy a quaint thing of the past. Our national airports have become Soviet style checkpoints where citizens are treated as criminals by ill tempered and poorly trained goons and thugs. Our domestic police are becoming increasingly more aggressive and militarized with instances of brutality and bullying becoming commonplace, the saying “if you’re not cops you’re little people” has gone from a line in a dystopian science fiction movie to reality. Deaths by Taser have been steadily increasing with no oversight, our fascist packed courts are now ruling in favor of the manufacturer of this dangerous weapon. The United States has in the most perverse Orwellian way been transformed into something as antithetical to what America was supposed to have always stood for that is strangely called “The Homeland which conjures up memories of a certain mid 20th century European land gone insane.

I am not going to go into a further litany of all that has gone terribly wrong in the land of Jack Bauer and extremist right-wing apple pie authoritarianism but suffice it to say that NONE of what has been visited upon us would have been possible were in not for the events of that terrible Tuesday in September 2001. Hitler had his enabling act and the ‘terrorist’ attacks of 9/11 gave us the USAPATRIOT Act and both were made possible by a false flag attack, in 1933 in was the Reichstag Fire and in 2001 it was the World Trade Center/Pentagon attacks. While some may cringe at the comparison to history’s most infamous totalitarian regime’s actions to those of the neocon junta and the Bush-Cheney administration the comparison has merit in that both events forever changed societies for the worse in their aftermath. There has never been a legitimate, objective and conflict of interest free investigation of 9/11 despite the growing suspicion among the American and international communities that the official government story is riddled throughout with lies, propaganda, omissions and obfuscations.


http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/diarypage.php?did=7521

[Juche]

13. nah

Ignorance is too blissful for me to be disturbed by the scary thoughts. Its easier to make fun of him than take him seriously, so I'll do that.

[TrogL]

17. This will only bring all the wackos out of the woodwork

Now that the Supreme Court has determined that the White House can hide whatever they want (eg. emails), the evidence is lost.

In the meantime, every controlled demolition/squib/magic_airplane/whatever wacko will be screaming from the rooftops.

You cannot have a meaningful discussion with these people because you cannot have a discussion with these people - they simply don't have the tools to carry on rational discourse.

[wildbilln864]

21. Well that's your tale....

I'm sitting on mine.

[Ghost in the Machine]

28. Your automatic labeling of people you disagree with as "wackos" shows that *YOU* are the one

that has no interest in meaningful discussion and that *you* are the one who lacks the tools to carry on any rational discourse...

Irony, thy name is TrogL

Let *that* sink in for a while, then feel the sting as it bites you in the ass...


Ghost

[TheWatcher]

40. But that is typical with most of the population.

The Official Story is the easiest, most comfortable and accepted paradigm for them to follow, so naturally, many like the above poster cling to it like the word of God.

It is Irony personified that they refuse to even hint at looking beyond the surface of the bullshit they have so willingly swallowed as the absolute Truth, which at the very least, REGARDLESS of what you believe, is so full of holes it's difficult to understand how anyone with the ability to use rational and objective reasoning would not even ENTERTAIN questioning it.

But your assessment is dead on.

People like that aren't interested in real, open, objective discussion.

They are interested in maintaining a paradigm that allows them to function comfortably with the least resistance and worry.

Anything beyond that? That's HARD. They just can't be bothered.

[Ghost in the Machine]

48. Boggles the mind, doesn't it?

They can look at a misadministration that has been caught in lies in just about *everything* they've said or done, but when it comes to the events of 9-11, they broke protocol and told the absolute 100% truth.

Simply. Mind. Boggling. :crazy:

[TheWatcher]

50. It really is.

And that's a really good point. They've never been honest with the public about ANYTHING, yet this is the one thing that people will fall in line behind them without question. And the hostility and ire that is thrust toward ANYONE who even DARES question outside those lines is breathtaking.

For God Sake, even if you aren't willing to question any of the physical evidence, the fact that Bush and Cheney would not testify UNDER OATH to the Commission is enough by itself to AT LEAST raise a red flag of even MINIMAL suspicion.

There are some days you really do have to check the calendar and make sure it's 2008 and not 1938.

[rucognizant]

90. Hate to burst your bubble...........

1938, brought us the WIzard of Oz.........& Gone with the Wind both enduring legands about human behavior.
I was born in 1939, and my childhood was spent in a far more progressive atmosphere than surrounds me today!
Until 17 years ago, I lived 40 miles from my hometown , near the site of McSame's Pemberton NJ recent town meeting. I gave lectures in that same auditorium. at Burlington County College.
He had 2,000. hand picked supporters?, They applauded and cheered? The Mayor of Medford, is a REPUBLICAN? running for Congress. They took McSame to MY Braddocks Tavern? Where my gay friends, in the apartment downstairs used to dine every night, and stay till closing?

When I was leaving 17 years ago.............at least 3 people tried to get me to be "born again", and the corporate midmanagement discovered the area as a nice place to spend 2 years before moving on up the corporate ladder.......... McMansions were sprouting in every former farm field.......
Today the local paper on-line is full of stories of robberies and home break-ins........
So glad I left!

[helderheid]

102. absolutely.

[defendandprotect]

75. I don't think they're used to it; foreign to them . . . but the internet is helping . .

and then there's the fear of no longer being on the side of those holding the power --

Let's keep at it --- we might improve the odds?

[warren pease]

81. "...they simply don't have the tools to carry on rational discourse."

Well pardon fucking me. Is your middle name ad hominem, and if so, can I just call you "homie?"

Here's a link to an article I did for Online Journal a while back that challenges the mantra that says the Bushies are too incompetent to pull off a 9/11-class operation, which you can read or not. Doesn't make fuck all to me either way.

However, it's clear from your little post that you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, haven't done a lick of homework on the subject or, if you have, it's been as part of a study group with the usual suspects who hang out in the dungeon and must truly enjoy doing the Bushies' PR work for them -- apparently for free, unless there's something more nefarious going on here.

Which I, of course, refuse to believe -- not because there's any evidence pro or con, but because that sort of collusion would be a conspiracy. And that would be a sure sign of mental incapacity mixed with groundless paranoia since everybody knows conspiracies are impossible just because they are.

And what's the proof? It's understood by any sensible person that America is the only country in all recorded history in which either a lone nut with a diary or a deranged gang of fanatics with magic fire-retardant passports do all the dirty work.

So that was ironclad proof that your quote, the one I cited in the subject line, is unfortunately correct. People who have done the homework, interviewed various "stars" in the trooofer movement, actually learned about properties of structural steel and its behavior at various high temperatures, tried to find an agenda behind every single remotely plausible conspiracy theory, including the official one -- and there are quite a agendas on all sides of the argument -- those loons are absolutely unequipped to even consider the whole sordid tale with any claim to credibility.

Disregard all those statistically improbable occurrences (actually "impossible" is a better word, but the odds are always listed as a ratio with 1 representing the specific event and another 1 with maybe 19 zeros after it expressing the degree of improbability), the dozens of instances of inexplicable cosmic synchronicity, the WTC 7 conundrum that NIST won't even touch (nor would the alleged investigation by the 9/11 commission which decided that, since that collapse doesn't conform to the OCT, they'd deal with that anomaly by simply ignoring it).

I'm told the building appears once only in the report, and that's in a footnote that simply describes the physical layout of the entire WTC complex. I've skimmed but not actually read the report, so I can't verify that one.

Sounds about right, though, given that Philip Zelikow -- long-time Bush flunkie, Rove collaborator and co-author with Rice of a book on German reunification circa 1989 -- was appointed executive director of the commission by Tom Kean after Zelikow's resume just kind of appeared on Kean's desk one afternoon. Another odd coincidence, but only conspiracy theorists would consider his appointment anything but open and above board and entirely free of any taint of corruption. These conspiracy theorists really are silly bastards, aren't they? Pains in the ass, too.

By the way... prior to appointing Kean, the Bushies actually tried to name Kissinger to the post of director, which set off howls of rage and derision and made it a little too obvious that the white house was shooting for a whitewash, although clearly only conspiracy theorists would find anything odd about Henry the K., the fixer's fixer, acknowledged international war criminal and, incredibly, winner of the Nobel Peace Prize, taking on the job. It seems odd that the same guy could be both a war criminal and a peace prize winner, but only conspiracy theorists are dumb enough to suspect fire just because there's a little smoke around.

So they withdrew Kissinger's name and replaced him with Kean, who in turn hired Zelikow as executive director. In this position, Zelikow controlled the day-to-day operations of the commission, deciding who would be interviewed, who would be placed under oath and who wouldn't (Ms. Rice among the latter group), what evidence the commission would consider and what would be off limits... only the whole nine yards.

With typical idiocy and irrelevance, conspiracy theorists also point out that Rice chose her pal and co-author Zelikow to prepare a paper for the White House that would justify the concept of preemptive war, otherwise known as attacking a sovereign nation that posed no immediate threat to the US. So Zelikow produces a document called “The National Security Strategy of the United States," issued in September 2002. Zelikow wasn't identified as the author for another two years.

But it affected US posturing long before that and ultimate provided the justification for the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq. This is a truly radical document, sanctioning for the first time in US history unprovoked American imperialist aggression. It also brought to an abrupt end America's global PR campaign that tried like hell to get the global population to buy into a fabricated image of the US as the gentle giant with the smiley face, all around good guy and inspirational leader of the free world.

Conspiracy theorists point out that Zelikow's role as the 9/11 commission's executive director creates a conflict of interest with his role as author of the paper that justifies the Bushies' new doctrine of preemptive war.

These numbskulls say that, since "the events of 9/11"(tm) were the catalysts and sole justifications for the attacks on Afghanistan and then Iraq, it was in Zelikow's own best interests to make sure the commission ratified the official conspiracy theory.

Otherwise his work on the preemption doctrine could be seen as a CYA exercise; an effort to make the strikes against the two targets seem to be a result of the new military dogma he wrote about. He needed to make certain that the public bought the idea that the attacks were part of a tragic but inevitable sequence of events driven by escalating tensions and incontrovertible evidence of emerging threats to this country.

Like them thar WMD things that never did git found nohow. Or that thar smokin gun thing that might could be shroom clouds. And the bastids could even git them drones here in like less then a hour... Gawdam! I'm fukkin terrorized! Anyway...

Anything was preferable to exposing himself as one of the few insiders who knew that these scripted attacks were planned years earlier and that 9/11 gave the Bushies the public support they needed to launch their less-publicized attacks on the American people.

They used 9/11 to jam huge increases in military budgets down taxpayers throats. They freed their cronies from regulatory scrutiny, clearing the way for massive war profiteering and good old fashioned grand theft.

They'll do damn near anything for their very bestest pals. In fact, for their pals at Unocal, they even wiped an entire country -- at least, the parts that weren't already wiped out -- to eliminate local opposition to building oil and natural gas pipelines from the Caspian Sea to the Indian Ocean.

This project had been Unocal's wet dream for years they wanted it so bad that some of their execs even hung out with some Taliban leaders at a big ol' hoedown at Unocal corporate headquarters in Sugarland, Texas (demented Tom DeLay territory) in December 1997. Oh, and it's just a weird coincidence that the most direct route between the start and end points of the pipeline happens to run directly through Afghanistan.

This was also the occasion where the entire Taliban swore off shitty American beer forever. I've always said that a couple of sips of Lonestar will drive you to drink. But then I'm a chronic wise ass and rarely miss an opportunity to insult Texans (Skittles excepted, since she'll definitely kick my ass if I get too far out of line).

So go nuts. As I said earlier, I don't give a piss in a hurricane if you think troofers are mentally defective. Nor do I care if you read up on the background or not. I also don't care that your pet theory insults the intelligence of anyone with an IQ over 100. Unfortunately, because the American gene pool seems to include far too many drooling idiots whose intelligence it's literally impossible to insult and far too few who can think their way out of a paper bag.

And if you insist on embarrassing yourself by shilling for the least likely conspiracy theory of them all, be my guest. If you want to be known as the guy who did the Bushies PR work for them, head on. If you really believe that 19 guys with box cutters, four of whom were allegedly skilled pilots, even though their only experience at flying big Boeings was a couple of well-worn video tapes and some flight manuals, that's certainly your right. Just because it implies that you're a bit gullible shouldn't prevent you from believing in such sheer idiocy.

So let's look at Hani Hanjour, the ace pilot of the four, the man who allegedly pulled about 5 Gs while executing a 330 degree spiraling dive, leveling at 2200 feet to accelerate to the Pentagon while continuing his descent. He started the maneuver at 7000 feet, 396 knots, dove almost 5000 feet within a 330 degree turn and covered 5 miles in about 3 minutes. According to the 9/11 Commission Report, the final impact speed was 530 mph.

This same Hani, holder of a fake commercial license, must have been one hell of a fast learner. He couldn't even fly a Cessna 172 just a few weeks prior to 9/11. At Freeway Airport in MD, two certified flight instructors by the names of Baxter and Conner took Hani up to check him out. They found that Hani had trouble controlling and landing a Cessna 172 at 65 knots. Another guy named Bernard, the Chief CFI at the airport, refused to rent him the 172.

So a little time with those videos and manuals worked wonders. That was apparently all Hani needed to evolve in a few short weeks from a miserable incompetent into a candidate for the Blue Angels.

This seems a little, ummm, unlikely to most of those dumb-ass conspiracy theorists. No problemo, say the formidable logicians who wholeheartedly support the official bullshit OOOOPS! I mean the actual, incontrovertible, bare nekkid truth of 9/11 as taught to us by the most honest administration in US history and by our friend the television set.

So to sum up, Hani took a 757, despite having no previous time in a 757 cockpit -- not even a simulator -- pulled off the maneuver described above, a 400 knot 330 degree spiraling dive at 2500 fpm, only gaining 30 knots, then 30 knots more descending from 2200 feet at full power, with a very steady hand as to not overshoot or hit the lawn, inside ground effect, at 460 knots impact speed and makes a direct hit on the only part of the Pentagon that had already been reinforced and which was as far away as possible from Rumsfeld's office.

But he was refused when he tried to rent a Cessna 172 'cause he couldn't keep it steady in the air or control it when landing at 65 knots.

Wow! That's a lot of really stupid bullshit for one evening. A thousand apologies for daring to question the official version of the truth, which we must all embrace with a fervor usually reserved for gods or dogs -- or be labeled "troofers" or "nutcases or, worst of all, one of the "...wackos (who come) out of the woodwork."

Nightie night...


wp

Member, Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice



Edited because it was just too short and really needed another 700 words.

[Grinchie]

86. Thank you for the time to write that Warren Pease

I just had to post to unequivocably state that I am in your camp, and you state quite clearly what is on my mind for the past 2 years.

I never questioned the twin towers, but when I saw WT- C Seven fall, and the lack of engine parts at the Pentagon, that was the truth teller for me.

I saw the news about a 7- forty- 7 that fell 20,000 feet to the ground in England. The nose cone was INTACT. The debris at the Haxagonal thingie didn't even come close.

There is an evil taint regarding 9\ Eleven. I hope it get's resolved soon.

[juno jones]

99. wish I could rec that reply n/t

[helderheid]

103. Gawdam! I'm fukkin terrorized!

WOW!
:applause:

[Grinchie]

85. Thats right TrogL, fall back into sleep

Everthings OK, don't worry, we're here to help you.

WAKE UP !

[wildbilln864]

19. Go Mike go! MIHOP! nt

[Phred42]

20. Maybe He'll be the Kucinich/Wexler of 9-11

[JohnyCanuck]

23. I think Mike Gravel is right

to call for a new 9/11 investigation, especially considering that we now know the anthrax used in the anthrax laced letters, ostensibly from Muslim terrorists, sent to media figures and the two Democratic senators Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy (just as the senate was considering passage of the un-Patriot Act) came from a US bio-warfare facility at Fort Detrick.

Even experts at the U.S. bioweapons facility at Fort Detrick think that the anthrax which was used in the 2001 attacks came from their facility:

"In an e-mail obtained by FOX News, scientists at Fort Detrick openly discussed how the anthrax powder they were asked to analyze after the attacks was nearly identical to that made by one of their colleagues.

"Then he said he had to look at a lot of samples that the FBI had prepared ... to duplicate the letter material," the e-mail reads. "Then the bombshell. He said that the best duplication of the material was the stuff made by (name redacted). He said that it was almost exactly the same … his knees got shaky and he sputtered, 'But I told the General we didn't make spore powder!'"

Indeed, 3 of the 4 suspects the FBI is investigating are employees of Fort Detrick, which is run by the Army.

SNIP

Some people are pretending that someone unconnected with the army bioweapons facility at Fort Detrick stole the anthrax. However, as the above-quoted article states:

"Fort Detrick is run by the United States Army. It's the most secure biological warfare research center in the United States," a bioterrorism expert told FOX News."

It is not very likely that someone could steal anthrax from the most secure facility in the U.S., run by the Army.

SNIP

There is strong evidence that the anthrax attacks were a false flag attack. Indeed, the bioweapons expert who actually drafted the current bioweapons law (the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act of 1989) while working for President George H.W. Bush has said that he is convinced the October 2001 anthrax attacks that killed five people were perpetrated and covered up by criminal elements of the U.S. government. The motive: to foment a police state by killing off and intimidating opposition to post-9/11 legislation such as the USA PATRIOT Act and the later Military Commissions Act.

http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/05/new-development-in-anthrax.html
(lots of embedded links in original for verification and follow up)

[deaniac21]

24. My favorite

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rZdAB4V_j8

[seemslikeadream]

27. YES

[Junkdrawer]

39. Hey, I don't want to know what happened on 9-11...

Only wackos want to know what happened on 9-11.

[TheWatcher]

43. It's getting to the point in this country if you want to question or know the truth about ANYTHING

You are viewed as a Wacko.

[Occam Bandage]

46. ...

[Fox Mulder]

69. So you accept our govt's investigation of 9/11?

:eyes:

[Junkdrawer]

89. Well, if I don't, people will say I'm a wacko...

and that makes me cry...

[spanone]

45. i'm for that too, mr gravel....i think we need an initial investigation

[roody]

51. link to initiative home page

http://www.nyc911initiative.org/

[wildbilln864]

65. Thanks roody. nt

:hi:

[bonito]

58. K&R n/t

[starmaker]

59. K&R nt

[bluesmail]

60. I assume everyone here listens to DemocracyNow???

[ooglymoogly]

62. KR

[EFerrari]

67. Kick

[defendandprotect]

70. Fortunately, a great deal of investigation has been done by

independent sources --- not to the liking of government officials, of course!!!

It rips apart their myth of 9/11 ---

Meanwhile, I think we're quite safe in the hands of the 9/11 widows and I'm thankful

that they are all still active on this --- it's only our democracy at stake ---

You might say, "What democracy?" at this point --- and I'd agree with you 'cause it sure

looks like very little of it is left!!!

[SidDithers]

100. You're talking about NIST, right?...nt

Sid

[defendandprotect]

111. No --

I'm talking about the 9/11 scholars for truth and many other independent investigators ---

[Blondbostonian]

112. What a crock of shit

Point me to all the structural engineers. I knoiw all about A/E for 9/11 Truth too. Their one structural engineer thinks it was a nuclear bomb.

I worked at 7WTC and was there on 9/11. If you really want to know what happened, try talking to a fireman that was there or a Salomon employee like myself.

The idea that my building was wired for controlled demolition is beyond laughable. It's insane.

[defendandprotect]

120. You wish . . .

there was "one" structural engineer --
and what I've read of some who have cited some kind of themonuclear device, I don't find
problematic.

Also, unfortunately, for you we have records and transcripts and videos of what the firemen
saw on 9/11 -- and it supports the idea of bombs going off in the buildings --

Also demolition experts consulted say that the buildings were obviously brought down by
means of DEMOLITION --- and that it was highly sophisticated, innovative work -- probably
done by military.

Let me recommend you do some more reading ---

[Pavulon]

121. I met many demo guys in the NG

not a delicate thing, not innovative. They did not implode buildings, demo is used for lots of things, implosion is short on battlefield use. Want to blow up a bridge great, blow a hole in something good deal.

want to blow up a 100 story building, that is and air force job, done with bombs. see iraq and bosnia
thermonuclear bomb, like a real 2 stage h bomb. insane.

I cut metal for a living, using a liquid jet of copper to cut metal, or water, or lasers is a glaring method. It jumps out.

[defendandprotect]

122. Well, evidently you didn't meet . . .

the top demolotion experts who made clear this is DEMOLITION --
but, we don't need experts to see clearly that it is demotion ---
Halliburton is a good bet --

It also looks like they used an explosion to blow the round hole in the Pentagon ---
something also from the battlefield --

It also does look like helicopters may have been used above the buildings to trigger
explosions ---

Molten metal also hangs around a long time --- the results of Thermite --

[New Dawn]

71. K&R

I voted for him in our state's (non-binding) Democratic primary.

[MsKandice01]

73. Gotta love Lincoln Chafee...

He's one Republican that I really and truly respect.

[defendandprotect]

76. Recco ---

[reprehensor]

77. VIDEO Now Up...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=148732&mesg_id=148732

[Grinchie]

82. I was warned by a friend that I might be visited if I spoke of WTC 7

And that I might not like it.

This was in Hawaii, and my friend is no longer speaking to me. An ex-friend, scared to death about what I related from my background in architecture and engineering as viewed on the numerous videos on the "Internets".

When Americans become afraid to voice their opinions on topics that don't match up with physics, because some shadoway cabal may squelch them, then we as a societhy have much more than Bin Laden to worry about.

[Junkdrawer]

92. Ain't that the truth...

When you look at all closely, the official version of 9/11 violates many, many laws of physics.

The theories that make the most sense from an engineering sense sound like whacked-out conspiracies.

Given that reality, most engineers and scientists simply avoid the whole subject like the plague.

[Grinchie]

88. I am Amazed that this OP got this much Attention

Not that it is unwarranted, but the attention from the Bashers and the Deniers is amazing.

If anything speaks volumes about the Corporate machine is that of a well articulated counterforce, then this thread is it.

Corporate can include Government, Military, Blackwater, CIA, IBM, Monsanto. you name it.

Look at the energy that has been expended to defend the 9-Elevena commision and calculate the cost.

These people that defend it are paid drones. They want no more scrutiny, because it's gonna hurt bad.

After all, how can you defend yourself from something that you are not allowed to see?

It's as simple as that.

[SpiralHawk]

93. ""Well, d'oh on the LIHOP thingy. But you'll never catch us. Smirk. - Commander AWOL

...and allied republicon homelander chickenhawk cronies...

[valerief]

94. MIHOP, MIHOP, MIHOP all the way. No doubt in my mind.

Any other explanation is a rationalization.

[pjt7]

95. More people are openly expressing

themselves, every day.

Maybe real courage & truth is still alive in America.

[juno jones]

97. OMIGOD

Intelligent front page discussion of the date in September that shall not be spoken! Eventually that event is going to intersect with history again. I wish Gravel luck at this.

Thank you Joanne 98, for posting this.

[ExPatLeftist]

98. While I agree with Gravel on this issue...

I don't think that he helps the cause of another investigation at all. He is easily marginalised as a nutcase, some of which is of his own making. This plea of his, if heard at all, can be just another way the RW and those that buy the "official" story can use to minimize the need for another investigation - "Come on, that's not serious, I mean Gravel supports it!". Unfortunately, that is what is important in the MSM.

These are things some people may not like to hear, but they are true. Put this plea up side-by-side with that video where he looks at the camera for like 2 minutes and then drops a rock in a pond, and people will have a field day pegging him and anything that he supports as nutty. I like the guy, but I am more interested in the end result. This does nothing for us.

[Politicalboi]

101. Go Mike Go

Start on 09/10/01 2.3 Trillion lost at Pentagon. Bush said he saw the first plane hit THAT morning.
Pancake theory doesn't acknowledge that there were 47 steel core beams that should have been standing with 50 stories of debris around it. Towers fell 10 stories a second. 4 planes avoided NORAD. 4 planes never reconstructed. Reason for the Patriot Act, an illegal war, laundering money. Don't think for one second that those who died that day meant shit to Bush or Cheney. It's so obvious it makes me sick that nobody in the Senate or Congress has questioned much of anything about 9/11. Both towers were losing money and they were loaded with Asbestos which would have cost Larry Silverstein a fortune to clean up. The judge that settled the insurance lawsuit for Larry was the AG Murkasey. And WTC 7 is a whole other story. Just watch the videos of people talking about bombs going off. They were there they should know. I hope this thing gets legs and is Bush's nightmare that puts him and The Dick in jail for the rest of their shitty lives. Or better yet execute them live on TV. That is something I would pay to watch. Maybe take them to the Empire State Building put a fire under their asses and let them jump.

[oldskool]

104. PNAC

After reading the PNAC I think there should be a independent
investigation. Why did Bush administration let everything
Osama Bin Laden wanted to happen to United States happened?
With truth,comes truth.

[helderheid]

105. welcome to DU

:hi:

[Occam Bandage]

114. PNAC is a think tank, not a document.

[Ghost in the Machine]

115. And PNAC put out a LOT of documents... maybe you're familiar with some of them?

There was a very interesting one called "Rebuilding America's Defenses", in which it was stated:
"The process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor."

Do you not find it odd that on the evening of 9-11 that Bush stated "The Pearl Harbor of the 21st century took place today."??
http://www.911timeline.net (scroll almost to the bottom)

How many other people referred to it as a "Pearl Harbor" that day?

[Occam Bandage]

116. Yep. That article was a huge reason they gained so much influence after 9/11.

Who do you turn to after a catastrophe: the guys saying, "Gee, nobody saw this coming, I have no idea what to do," or the guys saying, "Hey, we have a plan to make America better that can be implemented in exactly this situation?"

Of course I don't find that odd. Why would I? It's a pretty natural comparison, since it's the only time in modern history that American soil has been attacked by foreigners.

[Ghost in the Machine]

117. The same people who were saying "Gee, nobody saw this coming, I have no idea what to do,"

are the same ones who put this document out. You *do* know who some of the members of PNAC are, don't you?

Here's a short list:
Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Condoleeza Rice, Jeb Bush, Paul Wolfowitz, Josh Bolton....

Any of those names ring a bell??

[Occam Bandage]

118. Yeah. People in the Bush administration are pretty dishonest, all right.

Color me shocked and surprised.

[Ghost in the Machine]

119. Yet you defend them and the neocons...

how shocking...

[Occam Bandage]

123. Hardly, unless you think accusations of

systematic and unchecked gross incompetence leading directly to the unnecessary and easily-preventable deaths of thousands of people count as "defenses."