TACTICS people TACTICS

[nadinbrzezinski]

yep they did what I expected them to do. Perhaps why I am not disappointed

Been expecting this for YEARS... as I have seen the evolution...

After all, nobody builds a dictatorship to just go away... NOBODY

So we need to talk how to resist, and by all means go vote in November. If you need to vote for the usual suspects, do so... But now we know why there will not be any progress as long as the blue dogs are in charge. Where it matters, they are not that different from the pugs, and if that hurts the feelings of the centrist DLC crowd... I am sorry... you are not that different from the PUGS... WHERE IT MATTERS YOU SIMPLY ARE NOT Both of you are CORPORATISTS... GOT IT NOW? Good.

So it is time to talk tactics...

1.- Realize we already live in a police state... all the happy talk deniers does not change this fact. You do... and right now they are this close to scrapping the fourth amendment. But, but, you can post on this board malarkey I expect it!

2/- Realize that when they talk of them terrorists, they are talking of you and me... those who are awake and know what the score truly is. We are dangerous, since we took the blue pill.. ah that moment of clarity...

3.- Realize that resistance takes many forms... and ranges from work slowdowns, to strikes to simply NOT consuming except for essentials... of course there is more but hey... we may get there.

4.- Realize that they count on you voting for the one with the proper letter every two years.. TIme to think of pushing and actually voting in the primaries... ok... Pelosi got only 10% against her... we can do better, and she needs to be voted out in the primaries, forget it she getting voted out in the GE... people are not that involved.

To those who say don't vote third party... how's this working? If you feel you have to, do so... there is nothing sadder than doing the same and expecting things to change over and over again. Wait, isn't that a sign of insanity?

That said, one reason our lovely reps vote the way they do is they can only get money from the usual suspects... you know when you need a million + to run for a job that pays as little as it does... you know there is a problem. Oh and in some cases if some of us take away the victory ranges they usually do... and even reduce it significantly, that MAY send a message... and I am not counting on it either.

Oh and when you need to look at reality is... they are also protecting their own behinds and the corporations.

So look for those who will NOT run on special interest money ok.

Dust off the Declaration... and realize WE ARE NO LONGER LIVING IN A FREE COUNTRY.

Ah and yes I epxect the usual ... go for it guys... any of these threads would not be the same without the usual TPMs

But I will give you one.. you are right, we don't have the votes for impeachment, after all corporatists, regardless of party. will never vote for it... not to remove a corporatist... that is clear... but what is the other name for corporatists? Oh yeah FASCIST. wear it proudly. And sadly the CORPORATIST party controls Congress... they just have different letters... and we all know who they are!

[tekisui]

1. knr.

Fight the good fight. It is the People vs. the Corporatists/Fascists.

[liberal N proud]

2. I want my country back

[nadinbrzezinski]

We will take it back but it is a question of tactics

[givemebackmycountry]

78. I agree - check my screen name out....

I wonder when - and if - it will ever happen...

[formercia]

121. The boys will tell you that it was never your Country in the first place

They just let you think that so you would be a good little serf, work hard to achieve the 'American Dream', which was nothing more than a carrot on a stick, always moving and never attainable, that is unless you became a good little corporate lackey serf, then they threw you just enough crumbs to make you think you were doing well.

[Rick Myers]

3. I am with you on this issue, my friend...

:kick:

[musette_sf]

4. k&r

well said

[earth mom]

5. K & 5th Rec.

:kick:

[KG]

6. i'm keeping my powder dry. it's my fave tactic. learned it from the moderates at DU.

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. RLOL

Ironically so am I....

[tom_paine]

8. Not all moderates are punks. In times of peace and prosperity they are the glue

that holds this nation together.

When facing a Hitler or a Bush, destroying from within, they are useless fence-sitting punks, most of them (us).

But not all. The proper response for a moderate to a Hitler or Bush is to radicalize.

Unfortunately, most oft hem want to toady and pretend that Hitler isn't Hitler and Bush isn't Bush.

But all the punk-like wishing doesn't make it so!

Dry powder is for baby bottoms!

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. SOme of us were happily in the fence sitter category

then came December 12, 2000 and as they say... the rest is history

[Swamp Rat]

16. !

[bvar22]

79. December 12, 2000 was my enlistment date.

I was fairly apathetic before then. I believed in the self correcting pendulum of American government. But a coup happened on Dec 12, 2000. EVERYTHING changed.
I remembered enough from my high school Civics classes to KNOW something was BAD WRONG.
I found DU shortly afterward, and realized that the coup had actually started under Reagan, and that many Democrats (and the Party as a whole) had been co-opted by the Republicans/Corporatists.


They no longer teach Civics in most high schools.
Problem solved (for them).
How will someone realize that government is broken if they don't know how it works in the first place? :shrug:

Many Americans believe they swear allegiance to the President/Government, not the Constitution.

[defendandprotect]

93. Well, lots happened before that -- and there was 1963 and the coup on JFK . . .

2000 was a very NOISY steal --- and then came 2004 and Ohio ---
and here we are again . . . waiting to see what damage they do next time!

This out in the open attack on democracy has been in play since the attack on JFK ---
and much more quietly before that.

In a way, it's amazing that it has taken them so long, but they're close now to being able
to totally shut us down.

Keep in mind that the computer counters came in during the 1960's . . . they weren't about
to kill JFK and then let the public vote them out of office.

Two journalists in Florida became concerned about the computers in the late 1960's and
began looking into them --

http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm

We can regain control over corporations --- we must demand it -- and demand that the New
Deal regulations put in place are actually resurrected and enforced --- including anti-trust
laws still on our books.

[mod mom]

42. K & r! We've got to vote out the corporatists. Reach out and share your knowledge

of what has occurred with new groups of people. It surprising how many people are knowleable at least in some aspects of what occurred. When you start explaining the DLC/coproatist part, it's like light bulbs go off above their heads. It explains a lot-even if it's difficult(hard to accept the complicity)

[defendandprotect]

94. Right, we have to keep talking about the poison of DLC -- the corporate wing ---

of the Democratic Party ---

And we need more emphasis on the small "d" --- not the big "D" ---

We may have to get more innovative to regain control over corporations which have

in fact co-opted the Democratic Party.

[tom_paine]

9. Error: You have already recommended that thread.

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Hi there... fellow ahem, radical

[tom_paine]

13. Howdy. Radicalized Moderates SHOULD be an oxymoron.

In a strong, healthy Republic, it IS an oxymoron.

The appearance of Radicalized Moderates should ring alarm bells in a society's leadership, unless that leadership had something else in mind than the preservation of a strong, healthy Republic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. EMPIRE... And the new Caesar is Bush

At this point I will not be shocked if elections are somehow cancelled in November

Oh sure, we will scream and wring our hands in despair... AND....

Now a national strike... that would start to wake them up

Will not happen

Too fat, dumb and chiefly scared to rock the boat

[leveymg]

82. We need to ask ourselves the question whether this is functionally a bipolar dynasty

which would make elections -- the appearance of a changable political system -- both necessary and irrelevant to essential economic outcomes.

In other words, the appearance of free elections is part of the workings of a highly-evolved fascist oligarchy that maintains the vestiges and appearance of a democracy.

We have to ask that question. The outcome of the FISA vote -- whereby the majority of House Democrats joined all the Republican in shielding GOP figures (and some Dem leaders) from being forced to testify in civil suits against private intel/telco contractors -- seems to point to an answer to this question. It also tells us who's really at the top of the food chain -- and it isn't elected officials of either party.

[Jackpine Radical]

56. I was just about to say something about radicalized moderates

and suicide bombers but I deleted it & will leave it to others to fill in the blanks.

Ever since the 70's I've been seeing all of this coming. My timing was way off because the world has more resilience than I thought when I was younger, but I have had no doubt that it was coming. Population, pollution, peak oil, what we now call the perfect storm. This will be a very interesting fall.

[emmadoggy]

73. Radicalized Moderates?.......hmmm....

Is that anything like Africanized Bees??

:P

[T.Ruth2power]

10. K&R

To be fair, all of this stuff has been going on for 120+ years in America -- the labor wars and Farm Holiday movements and strikebusters and Pinkertons. The Palmer Raids and concentration camps for socialists, to mention just a few bright moments in American History, make today's America look tame by comparison. And when I say "tame," I mostly mean the level of dissent.

Actually, when you take into consideration such horrors as the slavery of Africans, the genocide of the Native tribes and the crushing of early anarchist and anti-tax crusades such as the Whiskey Rebellion, there was *never* a time when America was "free." This country was simply less oppressive and less class-anchored than the grim starvation of post-serfdom Industrial Revolution Europe.

I had a moment of clarity a few weeks ago, reading some histories of the Great Depression and the wild fever of socialist revolution throughout urban Canada and the USA: It suddenly became clear why the communist witch hunts of the McCarthy era happened. It was because we were *this close* to socialist revolution in America in the 1930s.

Jesus, there were foreclosed farmers showing up with NOOSES at the courthouse, to hang the judges. Working people read all the Red papers, which were distributed across the country by working people riding the boxcars. Rural men -- today's loyal "conservatives" -- would disarm sheriffs and Pinkertons, sometimes violently. Scabs working the ports were literally stomped to death by union men. Millionaires (today's billionaires) would flee to walled compounds while their private armies fought the workers.

Goddamn. People used to have a *spine.* Now, the people are fat and dull, obedient to a dead god, obedient to aristocrats and kleptocrats, retarded by Pavlovian responses to things they don't even comprehend: socialism, left, anarchism, communism, revolution.

It was once the case that "Red" was the proudest thing a North American worker could claim, just a century ago. Now, if the anti-union service worker with $30K in credit card debt and a foreclosed tract home even knows what "Red" means, he's against it.

And don't forget, Palmer was a liberal Democrat.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. There are differences though

and it is how systemic this is right now

That said, you got it on why McCarthy and the New Deal was a way to prevent that revolution

Problem is there is a limit on how far you can push

Sooner or later, people will rise

[backscatter712]

24. Maybe we need to start using these tactics.

As Kennedy said, those who make non-violent revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.

Time to start using more disruptive tactics, methinks.

And I wish more people would talk about protesting at the RNC as well as the DNC. Hell, take it well past protests. Make it riots. If Rush can dream of riots at the DNC, I can dream of riots at the RNC. I want total disruption. I want a gigantic melee. I want the bigwigs like Bush, Cheney, McCain etc. to have to cancel their speeches because the cops can't keep the protesters in their free speech cages. I want them to have to relocate, redo their schedules, have to hide behind sandbags and machinegun nests. I want molotov cocktails. I want anarchists with baseball bats. I want the city AFLAME!!!

I know, advocacy of violence is supposed to be bad. But I'm failing to see another way. I'd rather die fighting than live cowering.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Look at Ghandhi for better examples

there are ways to skin this cat without riots

But thousands blocking roads will be JUST AS EFFECTIVE

And if you can get MILLIONS even better

:hi:

[backscatter712]

28. Non-violent action only works when those in power actually have a conscience.

Bush, Cheney, McCain, even the quisling Dems have made it clear that they don't have a conscience. They'd gladly murder every single one of us if they thought there was something in it for them, and they could get away with it.

I'd love to see a better option, but writing letters doesn't work. Phone calls don't work. Emails don't work. Code Pink making scenes in the Senate galleries doesn't work. Street protests don't work. The assholes in power have made it clear they don't give a shit what we think.

That leaves one option left - violent insurrection.

You think Stalin or Hitler would have been stopped by sit-ins or marches?

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. You think the BRITISH Empire HAD a conscience either?

I mean the army gunned down people engaged in non violent resistance.

In the end Ghandhi won... and the Empire was defeated

It may not be fast, or self gratifying and require a lot of patience... but history works

The SAME tactics were used by MLK... the only reason they moved faster is that the feds were behind him, to a point

And street protests are not the end of peaceful resistance, nor are code pink actions...

It is day in and day out...

[tom_paine]

70. I am sorry to disagree with you here, nadine, but yes, compared to our nation

the British Empire certainly did have a conscience.

Think of it as a sort of outgrowth of stuffy British politeness and that famous Victorian British sense of "manly fair play".

Yes, they did some terrible shit, but they didn't "go all the way" like we did with Native Americans and that slight difference, that whiff of conscience compared to none, made all the difference.

If I was to close my eyes and imagine a scene that encapusulates what I am trying to say it would be this:

A British Soldier guns down a rioting rebelling person of color in India. "Sorry old boy," says the soldier after the rioter is dead.

Yes, he still shot and killed that rioter, so on a personal level the conscience (remember, we are speaking relatively here) of the British didn't do that one person any good, didn't make a bit of difference. Dead is dead. But in the larger picture the difference between "Sorry old boy." and "Die you fucking raghead." is big indeed, on the societal level.

If you think about it, we briefly shared that national Conscience with the Brits during Vietnam. Now, of course, we are a brutal bunch of Hitler's Henchemen in training which will come out as soon as "the national economic belt tightens a lot".

So that's my take on it, and remember, we agree a lot more than we disagree over mild stuff like this.

I am on your side.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. I know the disagreement is mld

chalk that to all those classes in 20th century imperialism

And you are right, we are about to find out just how bad the YOYO mentality will come out

[MNBrewer]

88. Poor St. Paul, MN

Should be in some Republican city, then.

[TheWatcher]

17. I've already posted it once today, and I shall do so again.

And perhaps it should be posted on the DU Front Page PERMANENTLY until it SINKS IN.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

IT IS TIME

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. AGREED...

IT IS indeed TIME.

And my copy is no longer dusty either

[kath]

36. say it : - that when any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of

the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government...

"Long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism" - wow, ain't that the truth.


Please, Skinner et al, can't we post this to the front page? Please?

[bdamomma]

40. it is time.

[G_j]

18. agree with all you say

& unless one accepts the truth, they can't fight for it.

[LWolf]

19. I'll be looking hard at every person, for every office,

that I cast a vote for this year.

I've allowed myself to be bullied into giving too many candidates free passes because they have a "D" after their name in the past.

Not anymore.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Mine votes the right way most of the time

but the bone of contention I have with her is impeachment

[LWolf]

22. My House Rep is a disaster.

Replacing him with any non-republican is unlikely in this area.

There is a local Democrat, a centrist businessman, running. It's unlikely that he will win, and unlikely that he would challenge tptb in Washington if he did.

It seems like most of the Democratic candidates who would be most likely to challenge the status quo don't make it out of the primaries.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. For for the dem, I intend to vote for the Green in the hope we can

shorten the range of victory... and that MAY wake her up

She wins in the 80s range... so I hope to make it down to the 60s

[LWolf]

26. That's a good strategy, and

offers something constructive to do when there is really no way to "win."

[debunkthelies]

47. Mine is Rick Renzi

What can I say, no progress there.:shrug:

[FogerRox]

117. I know one who did in NJ, Tom Wyka challenging a republican in NJ-11

http://www.tomwyka.com/index.html

Tom ran in '06, got 74k votes, broke the previous 230 year record of 32% by getting 37%. On the strength of 150 volunteers and $18k. On primary day in NJ Tom won a 3 person race by 69.7%

http://www.bluejersey.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=8050

[LWolf]

122. Was he a democrat running in a solidly republican district?

The 2nd district in Oregon covers most of the state; everything east of the Cascades. It's mostly rural republican. It can be hard to find someone willing to challenge Greg Walden. Voisin did a great job in 2006, defeating 3 primary opponents and running an energetic campaign; Walden defeated her 67% - 30%.

This year, one lone local businessman ran in the Democratic party unopposed. He's got my support, but I'm realistic about his chances.

[FogerRox]

139. NJ-11 is probably the safest "R" seat in NJ. If we raise a 1/4 mill, we'll give Rodney a dogfight

GImme a million and we'll crush him.

[cui bono]

89. I've found that my Rep votes the right way at least most of the time if not all.

He did balk at my suggestion of impeachment at a "coffee meeting" he had, but when I check his votes on the important stuff he seems to vote for the people on all of them.

And he handed out pocket constitutions at the meeting. :)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. They vote with the Republicans and then call for "Unity".

Kinda like a rapist proposing marriage.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. That is an elegant way of putting it

[nashville_brook]

48. ...and if we have a problem with that, *we're" the ones supposedly destroying the party.

i'm so sick of this shit.

[Leopolds Ghost]

29. Clear-Eyed.

http://recreate68.org/
http://unconventionalaction.org/news

No sense in a little agitation now that we no nobody needs to be singled out or feel persecuted against. They are all culpable and we can target
all politicians equally in August - November and beyond.

Remember groups like the NWP and how they refused to stand down as Dems
demanded in the face of WWI.

[zorahopkins]

30. A Kick and a Recommend

That's all.

[H2O Man]

32. Nominated.

Thank you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Thank you waterman, I am honored

[Fire Walk With Me]

34. Vote.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bdamomma]

41. yup, agree with that too

AIPAC, they really kiss up to them don't they?

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Nice excuse for why we are allowing this to happen

Once again... if a country of six million is indeed dictating US Policy, we deserve everything that is happening and then some

Sorry if I have no patience for that...

And yes. for students of this crap, this has all the echoes of something else

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. If that is the case, and a country of six million controls the

fate of a superpower, we deserve everything coming and then some

No, wake up and smell the roses, that is the excuse.

Who controls this country? Start by looking at the companies that control your media... start there... and the IMC...

AIPAC is just a convenient excuse

[stimbox]

38. Recommended!

Time to read my Dennis Kucinich autographed pocket copy of the Constitution...


:bounce:

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. DAMN YOU

:-)

Hey at least I have a copy!

[bdamomma]

39. let's stay focused and we could do it.

[frog92969]

43. Fascism is upon us

We are under siege and not represented.
Our own military has the green light to fight us.
The internment camps are already built.
Our election may not be allowed.
Those ARE "the facts on the ground".
It's time to adjust our strategy accordingly.

[defendandprotect]

95. Fascism arrived in America long ago ---

we're close to the end game ---

Global Warming and Mother Nature in the end are in charge, however --
and I'm quite sure that depite the denials, the fascists understand quite well
what is coming around weather-wise.

[wiggs]

44. That's right. It took billions of dollars and 30 years of planning to get to this point. We

may have stopped digging, but we are still in a very deep hole and are way behind the learning curve. They won't just let it go, as you say. It's still in place.

[alfredo]

45. Three things you should never do.

Never get attached to a stock, a prostitute, and a politician. Sooner or later you're going to get fucked.

[nashville_brook]

46. oh, HELL YEAH... been away from lappy for days...

great thread to come back to!

[maryf]

51. k & r and yes, yes, yes, but

they don't have to still be in office to be impeached, and congress is still a better court than the federal judges they hired, for the most part, maybe? And it might slow them down just a tad and it does help stop the precedence, which is critical, IMNSHO, Thanks!

[alarimer]

53. I agree

I've been reprimanded for saying there isn't much difference between Democrats and Republicans. I SHOULD have said that there is no difference between Blue Dog Dems (or DLC Dems) and Republicans. Because there isn't really. And those Blue Dogs ARE the problem; they are the ones that vote with Republicans much of the time. Other Democrats do not. And that's how Republicans win- by getting their people to vote the same and siphoning off enough Democrats (again, Blue Dogs and DLC types) to win even as a minority party. BUT the Democrats have always had a big tent. A lot of disparate interests all together under one roof doesn't always work very well.

So you're right about targeting those who do not vote with the party on major issues. And corporate money is just a cancer on democracy, no doubt about it. And, I suspect, that's why most voted the way they did on FISA. Because the corporations donate more money than we can. Our democracy is very sick right now because of the corporate money. And, call me cynical, but I doubt Obama is any different than any other. I know they have sworn off PAC money so we will see. But I doubt much will really change.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. I am with you on the change part

Obama will be slightly better for my pocket book, but that's about it

We need to resist the best way we can

[Tatiana]

55. Every city, every county, every district, every state... we need to find clean candidates

to run against these assholes. Plain and simple. And then we've got to donate the money to make these people competetive, pounding the pavement to get CLEAN and SPECIAL-INTEREST FREE candidates elected. It takes time and money... something we all are short of in these economic times, but if we're going to fucking defend the Constitution, we've got to sacrifice, be big boys and girls and do what it takes. If that means you take a sick day from work to get out the vote, if that means you don't go out to the movies and donate that money to a candidate, then we need to get to it.

This is a job that is not for the lazy or faint at heart.

Donna Edwards is the model. We can't shoot for the moon. We have to do some strategic targeting.

We can start by setting our sights on Steny Hoyer.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. It goes beyond targeting candidates

and GOTV operations... we need to realize that we need to change even how we live

Resistance is not only getting candidates

[Tatiana]

58. That's already happening by default.

But we cannot continue with the current type of representation we have. A concerted effort has to be made to change it. We're currently ruled by these people. They make the laws. They interpret the laws. They enforce the laws. They protect the corporations that screw us over.

This governance is literally killing us, by sending us to die in war, starving us in poverty, or refusing to provide health care that every other Western nation provides. It's the number reason why we're in the position we're in now and it should be the number one strategy to get us out.

If that fails... then we'll find out if the sheeple have the stomach for the big R.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. I don't think it is happening by default

people need to do things ON PURPOSE not just because they can or can't afford something

I realize that a national strike is what we need, not that we will get it... but that is what we need to work for

ORGANIZED, PEACEFUl resistance

[Raksha]

62. Steny Hoyer is already being targeted.

The first ads against him are almost ready to go. Check out my reply #61 below.

[defendandprotect]

96. Who is going to run for the Dems against him? GREAT to get rid of him!

[Raksha]

61. Glenn Greenwald's campaign to target the most odious traitors

with a "D" after their names is really taking off. The idea is to keep our majority, but at the same time target two or three of the worst offenders for primary challenges, and put some serious money into defeating them. That puts the fear of God into the rest of them. The campaign is looking very promising so far.

Steny Hoyer (of course) is one of the three selected turds in the cross-hairs right now.

Wednesday June 18, 2008 16:49 EDT

Campaign against warrantless eavesdropping and telecom amnesty is expanding

There are numerous developments to report concerning the campaign to stop the FISA/telecom bill and to target those who enable it. First, the amount raised in the last 24 hours is now a truly extraordinary $90,000 -- bringing the total for this campaign over $170,000. The more that number goes up, the more potent this campaign will be, the harder it will hit its deserving targets. Contributions can be made here.

The ACLU Press Release announcing this new coalition, which is being called "Strange Bedfellows," is here. We expect to announce numerous other additions to the coalition -- many quite significant -- very shortly.

According to a new article from Roll Call (sub. rq'd), the House "may consider contentious electronic spying legislation on Friday 'if that's ready to go,' Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) said ." There is no question that Hoyer is well aware of and is now responding to this campaign against him.

As of today, Hoyer has stopped falsely denying that he engineered this deal. He has also stopped falsely denying that it contains telecom amnesty. Instead, he is now offering the excuse that he had no choice but to negotiate it because "conservative" Democrats were threatening to support the Rockefeller/Cheney Senate bill and Hoyer was thus forced to negotiate the best deal he could.

<snip>

...our campaign will be unveiled in two phases, with Phase I to entail an immediate ad campaign aimed at three key Democratic enablers of this bill -- Hoyer, Chris Carney, and Blue Dog Rep. John Barrow of Georgia. The reasons for targeting Hoyer are self-evident and were set forth yesterday, and the campaign against Carney -- who has long been one of the Blue Dogs spearheading the effort behind this bill -- is already underway and will continue.

Rep. John Barrow was, like Carney, one of the 21 Blue Dogs who signed the letter to Nancy Pelosi back in March demanding that they be allowed to vote on the Rockefeller/Cheney Senate bill. In July, Barrow faces a very credible primary challenger -- Georgia State House Rep. Regina Thomas -- who is much more in step with the district's Democratic base.

A concerted, substantial and immediate campaign in Barrow's district to make voters aware of the corrupt two-tier system of justice he is supporting via telecom amnesty could have a serious impact on permanently removing this Blue Dog from Congress. The media buys for that district are relatively inexpensive, enabling a substantial TV, radio, and robocall buying campaign. That is particularly important because the primary occurs on an off-election day, inevitably producing a low turnout that puts a premium on turning out the base. This campaign will be devoted to turning out the base -- against Barrow.

Like most amnesty advocates, Barrow has received major contributions from the telecom industry on whose behalf he is working feverishly to obtain amnesty, and his constituents ought to -- and will -- learn of that. Just to get a sense for what Barrow is like, here is the ad he ran when he sought re-election in 2004, proudly boasting of his opposition to his party's desire to "cut and run in Iraq":

<snip>

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/06/18/fisa_campaign/index.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Now this is what I am talking about, thanks

change in tactics indeed

[Raksha]

64. I think it's a brilliant idea.

It works on the same principle as raising grassroots funding for candidates, nickel-and-dime donations that add up to enough money to challenge the corporate deep pockets. You can do the same thing for issues.

These Blue Dogs need to find out the hard way that the Bill of Rights has a constituency!

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Why I gave a cookie to mine this morning

we disagree on impeachment but by golly she did the right thing.. oh the cookie, ten bucks and made sure the staff knew

[defendandprotect]

97. Keep us posted -- DU could be helpful in raising $$ for Greenwald . . .???

[Syntheto]

67. It must be frustrating to be the only one to see the Truth...

... and surrounded by those idiots whose thinking is so muddled that they can't appreciate such wisdom when it is dispensed. The approach sounds vaguely familiar though; can't quite put my finger on it... no, wait, I've got it! Landsberg Prison, just outside of Munich, 1923!

[tom_paine]

69. Once again, the personal attack sidesteps the issue.

You know what's funny? You accuse nadin of being like the Nazis when quite the opposite is true.

While your analogy may be mildly apt, and I stress the word MILDLY here, what is MUCH MORE APT is Germany 1933, and the people who sat huddled in their homes whispering about how only they could see the truth and marvelling at the mass mania that had overtaken 99% of their nation.

Why couldn't the other 99% SEE what was going on? Why couldn't they SEE Hitler and his henchmen were madmen? After all, to the 1%, it seemed to be obviously, grotesquely on display at all times.

And yet, 99% of the Germans either loved Hitler, liked him, or were neutral enough or scared enough to remain silent.

THERE is your Germany analogy, damn you, NOT your pathetic twist and contorted spin.

There comes a time when "moral relativism" just doesn't cut it. Sometimes evil is evil, and must be named so (I am referring to the Bushies here, not you).

Wake up, open your eyes and SEE.

I will suggest you read two things, and try to keep and open mind about them.

One:

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

This is an excerpt from a book written shortly after WWII excompassing interviews of hundreds who lived through the rise of Hitler and the Nazis, and intheir own words describes what it was like to live there.

You may not agree, but I believe this excerpt to a tee describes our own condition, minus the violence and racism.

But you should read it, if you haven't already

Two:

http://www.amazon.com/Defying-Hitler-Memoir-Sebastian-Haffner/dp/B0013TFBNS/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211866105&sr=8-1

This book, written by a young liberal lawyer and documenting the years in Germany 1914-1934 from an "on the ground ordinary man's perspective", will give you much insight about how your original analogy is not just inapt, but diametrically 100% wrong.

Read these, if you dare challenge you own view with contrary facts from those who WERE THERE.

Who knows? Maybe you will read them and it will reinforce your views, though I doubt it. But do READ up and understand of what you speak.

[Syntheto]

72. No, damn you, I insist....

...Hitler thought he was RIGHT, no make that, CONVINCED that he was right, and that why couldn't some people just accept that, and quit being sheeple and wishy-washy and listen to HIM because HE WAS RIGHT? His generals referred to him (in private, of course) as the "carpet chewer (no Virginia, not "Muncher") because he would get so frustrated when contradicted that he would literally froth at the mouth, throw himself on the floor and rip into a throw rug.

Some people here, perhaps you, seem the type to play Rudolf Hess, if you know what I mean, (and I think you do) to some fanatical, my way or the highway bullshit.

You make it sound as if there are death camps waiting and we all know it. I sneeringly tell you now, oh, stop. How many refugees tried to make their way to Nazi Germany? How many Haitians try to risk their lives to get here?

Where's our Kristalnacht analogy? Oh, wait, I know, Hurricane Katrina, right?

Is it really necessary to go with all these idiotic conspiracy theories and Nazi comparisons and accept them as the unvarnished TRUTH in order for us to secure the White House?

It had better not be, or that says a lot that I'm not comfortable with. If that's too Republican for you, then you are going to wake up to a very rude surprise come November.

I know my history, and I also know that America is a great place, and I get really annoyed at these self-proclaimed holders of Absolute Truth who challenge the courage or intelligence of everybody who doesn't agree with their epiphany. It's the virtual equivalent of some glazed-eye asshole screaming at people from their soapbox and their sandwich boards.

Do you know how stupid and simplistic it sounds when people make the silly argument that America is hated and everything is bad on Bush's last day in office, but the day Obama takes moves in to the White House, the skies will suddenly turn blue, and the whole world will want to buy us a Coke?

In a word, Bullshit, and while you're at it, get real. BHO is a politician, and he is going to have to deal with real issues.

Hitler had very simple solutions to very complex problems. "We need less Jews in Europe" could be uttered over lunch on Wednesday, and by Friday morning, there would be elaborate plans in place, including railroad schedules, organizational flowcharts and specifications for ovens.

Hey, just listen to me! I, and I alone know the TRUTH, and if you don't agree with me, then you're just one of the stupid people out there that have to be educated. Don't you find that offensive and annoying?

As an American, I reserve to right to dare any form of authority if I disagree with their policies, and if you don't want to hear it or read it, put me on your Ignore list, because I'm also referring to these self-appointed voices of authority.

But, what does that say? Is DU a tight little club where there is one particular view, and nothing else can be tolerated? Are all posts supposed to be akin to people standing up and getting cheered for saying the right thing and little compliments on their writing style? What, just a bunch of frustrated Eng Lit majors working shitty jobs because they didn't have the connections or talent to become so-called journalists?

It's okay, though, DU, as well as all the other blogsites out there are just a virtual meeting place where people can hide behind some cute little name with a clever avatar and libel and slander other people in relative safety. As for political influence, we've got two, count them, two, political parties in this country. To the casual observer, it would seem that they take turns. In that light, what do your, mine or anybody's posts actually mean to the American political process?

Well, in the words of Mr. Natural "It don't mean shit."

Maybe you should open your eyes a little more and round out your views. You took exception to a virtual friend of yours having their orthodox views challenged. How dare I, right?

Well, I dare, and if you don't like it, you know what to do.

[tom_paine]

76. More false dichotomies, yet still an argument relatively well-presented.

Here are some points for you to ponder, though I doubt you will ponder them, and then I must be going off to enjoy some fun in the sun.

#1) Throughout this post and your last, what is annoying is not just the personal attacks but the certainty that you know me or my "virtual friends". You don't know any of us from Adam.

Frustrated English Lit Major? No, actually a molecular biologist. And I would rather gnaw my own arm off than work in what passes for "journalism" in this couuntry these days.

#2) There is no ABSOLUTE TRUTH. At best we have the constantly changing shifting sand of Transient Human Truth. This is not moral relativism, as I said. But there come moments when that shifting transient human truth snaps into focus for just a moment, usually in times of extremity and extremism.

In my last post to you, I posted a couple links for you to read. Will you read them? Doubtful, but maybe. After all, I don't know you any more than you know me. Here's one more for you not to read. It was written about a book (which I have yet to read but soon will) written by a respected political scientist who had been studying democracy for almost four deacdes. Does this expertise make him a holder of ABSOLUTE TRUTH? Hell no, there is no such thing. But his experience and expertise lends weight to his words.

It is this article, and Wolin's book, too, which neatly explains how we could be in a dire situation yet there are no thugs in swastikas running around beating and murdering people.

http://www.truthdig.com/arts_culture/item/20080515_chalmers_johnson_on_our_managed_democracy

#3) Another false dichotomy you presented was the fact that people are still trying to come here as compared to Nazi Germany.

That is technically true, but the trend is clear. It is America's wealth, NOT it's freedom, that attracts more people here nowadays. What we have now is the freedom to be surveilled from birth until death, for every transcation and prescription to be filed and stored by the HS. For that is the confirmable 100% reality of the situation. Read the PATRIOT Act. Hell, read the HIPA statement you have to sign when you get a prescription. Since late 2001, it has had another clause, I believe it is #7 or #9. Read it first, next time you get a prescription, don't just sign it without looking, like everyone does.

Is the Inverted Totalitarianism that our nation has become better to live in, on a personal level, than nations with the direct brutalities and barbarities of Classical Totalarian Nations, like Uzbekistan? Hell yes! Inverted totalitarianism, if you have the open mind to read the article, avoids any behavior referential to Classic Totalitarianism because it relies on self-censorship and self-authoritarian-control to achieve what Classic Totalitarian nations achieve by brutality and barbarism.

Read the article.

#4) No faster way to shut down a conversation without actually listening to what the other person has to say that crying "Conspiracy Theory! Conspiracy Theory! Conspiracy Theory!"

Well, I call BULLSHIT on YOU! You're just a Coincidence Theorist with their head in the sand. Let me ask you a simple question, if Conspiracy Theories are all bullshit, then why is Criminal Conspiracy a felony? Why was the RICO ACT created in the 70s?

Was the Mafia a conspiracy? Of course everyone knows that it exists NOW. People like you are very keen on crowing about things already investigated and vetted, but no investigation even begins without a Conspiracy Theory, a hunch.

It is a FACT; not speculation a historical FACT that J. Edgar Hoover belived the Mafia was a Conspiracy Theory until the Kefauver hearings and the rest forced him to admit it wasn't so.

Had you lived in the 30s and 40s, it is likely you would have been on J. Edgar's side, sneering about the whiny Conspiracy Theorist Union guys when they went to complain about getting leaned on, beaten, and murdered by the score.

"People get murdered every day in New York City."

"But I am trying to tell you there's a organized group of people who are trying to take over the Construction Workers Union. They are beating us up and murdering us all the time to make that happen."

"You're just another whiny Lefty Conspiracy Theorist. Imagine, a group like that operating pretty close to openly, doing things like that on a big scale. It's crazy! If something like that was happening, it would have come out already."

"But, but.."

"Get out of my station-house, you whack-job nutty asshole Conspiracy Theorist. Crime organized like a corporation? Imagine the nonsense required to believe some bullshit like that."

There's more, much more I could say to you. But as a newcomer to DU you probably do not even know 1/10th of the facts of our situation to make an intelligent decision one way or the other, since you will never hear any whiff of it on TV. You may think that's hubris or smugness or superiority or whatever you choose to ratonalize, like the way you rationalize my profession as Frustrated English Lit major working a crappy job (actually I love working in science, most days I go to work with a smile on my face) to fit your preconceived notions.

But I thank you for a most interesting conversation, even though it is clear we have not moved each other in the least. But you made your case reasonably civilly, and even the peppering of dubious "low-level" insults stand you head and shoulders above most responses from what I will loosely term "your camp".

I have provided three links for you to read. I hope you can get past your self-righteous outrage, an outrage you seem to be projecting onto those you disagree with, long enough to read at least one of them.

If you wish me to read something eye-opening, please link to it and I will do so, so that the information exchange isn't in only one direction.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. So you will only get it when you see the pretty uniforms

and the camps

Free clue, MY DAD avoided a camp but not by much

Another free clue... you don't need camps.. to keep people afraid.

Yet another free clue, the Germany of 1941 seemed very normal to the residents living there

You think you are free and there is nothing to see or fear here... go ask anybody who lived in that Germany. For the record I have.

[defendandprotect]

99. Consider genocide against the native American, enslavement of the African in America. . .

imprisonment of the Japanese-Americans in America --- and how quickly internment camps were
arranged ---

Consider that we have been building camps in America --
I believe Halliburton has had the contract --
and that info has certainly been posted at DU more than once ---

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. SHHH that is ancient history best forgotten to our friend

by the way... I can tell you why it didn't happen after 9.11

The military said no

The first revolt in many that have come.. but mostly have been ignored

Things could be infinitely worst already

[defendandprotect]

115. Well, we can easily see that . . .

the military has been opposing Bush in a lot of directions ---
not that Colin Powell didn't give them a boost up --
but . . .

it has to be OBVIOUS to most in the military that Meyers helped pull off 9/11 with Cheney?

We need more help on exposing 9/11 ---

[defendandprotect]

98. Start thinking about the US control over Haiti ... going way back . . .

People "come here" because they are trying to excape our foreign/imperialistic policies ---

[Syntheto]

107. Thanks for the stupidest thing I've read yet...

You owe me a Beck's because I spit it out reading your response...

let me get this straight, ahem, the Haitians come here because they are trying to flee our imperialistic policies in their country? Yes, ours, because you're an American, silly, too, just as I am.

Okay, the Ukrainians should have become refugees in Germany proper to escape the destruction of the Ukraine during WW2?

Think about that. You should have thought about it before you posted. In the words of J. Bugsworth Bunny: "what a maroon!"

Oh, and that idiot who talked about waiting for the pretty uniforms is also a dumb ass.

It's politics, stupid.

Geez, buy the kids books, send them to school, and they have to dress Goth to prove that they're different.

I'm just bored and annoyed when people talk darkly about America as a Nazi clone. Get real, dumb ass. You don't need to play that crap to be a Democrat, or to prove how orthodox a Democrat you are.

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. You might benefit from leaving all the manifest destiny

we are great crappola behind and start looking under the hood

OUR Foreign Policy has had unintended results

To quote Senator Byrd after 9.11 "you mean that was blowback?"

Now let me give you the definition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_(intelligence)

Blowback is a term used in espionage to describe the unintended consequences of covert operations. Blowback typically appears random and without cause, because the public is unaware of the secret operations that provoked it.<1>

In its strictest terms, blowback was originally informative only and referred to consequences that resulted when an intelligence agency participated in foreign media manipulation, which was then reported by domestic news sources in other countries as accepted facts. In looser terms, it can encompass all operational aspects. In this context, it can thus mean retaliation as the result of actions undertaken by nations.

:banghead:

There are days I love the willful ignorance

[defendandprotect]

127. If you don't understand the latest COUP in Haiti was US backed . . .

and US influence/control of Haiti, then you're not going to get much I'm saying to you

about Haiti --

Yeah . . . I'm sure the Haitians can paddle their way to let's say . . . Ireland?

That's obviously where the Cubans went ---

Unfortunately, we do have fascism in America --- it's been going on a long while --

and rising ---

THIS is the family which aided Hitler/Nazis in Germany ---

Wake up!

Your country needs protection from an "enemy within" ---




let me get this straight, ahem, the Haitians come here because they are trying to flee our imperialistic policies in their country? Yes, ours, because you're an American, silly, too, just as I am.

Okay, the Ukrainians should have become refugees in Germany proper to escape the destruction of the Ukraine during WW2?

Think about that. You should have thought about it before you posted. In the words of J. Bugsworth Bunny: "what a maroon!"

Oh, and that idiot who talked about waiting for the pretty uniforms is also a dumb ass.

It's politics, stupid.

Geez, buy the kids books, send them to school, and they have to dress Goth to prove that they're different.

I'm just bored and annoyed when people talk darkly about America as a Nazi clone. Get real, dumb ass. You don't need to play that crap to be a Democrat, or to prove how orthodox a Democrat you are.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. So apart of personal attacks do you have something useful to contribute?

Oh and I forgot to add... thanks for adding to the Talking points...

Hey at least you are ORIGINAL...

[Syntheto]

128. Actually, I'm contributing about the same as you are...

...absolutely nothing. All anyone does here is sing to the choir. Reminds me of another site, you know, the one on the reactionary side.

States have always looked after their own interests, and the ones who didn't aren't around anymore. Look at the way the Allies arbitrarily settled things in the Balkans, Middle East and China in 1919.

America has always been a beacon, even then, and there was a lot of hope that things would be settle on Wilson's so-called 'Fourteen Points', the hallmark being the off-hand remark by Wilson concerning 'self-determination'. It was vague, and didn't say a god damned thing, making it, as a consequence, open to any interpretation that you wanted to give it. Following the Armistice, desperate people were doing just that.

It would have been much better if Wilson would've said 'green grass and high tides' or 'pot roast with boiled potatoes and carrots on the side'.

Mind you, the perennial fucked-over folks (read the Kurds, Armenians, Albanians, Jews, Africans and so on would've read what they wanted to had that been the case, but the point is, America has always represented a standard to aspire to, always.

Had WWI taken place on American soil, and America had been on the losing side, perhaps the Sioux would've been able to negotiate their own government with the Triple Entente. The Germans had already tried to entice Mexico with offers of rescinding the Gadsden purchase, if they would come in on their side.

Do you think that was because they gave a fuck about the Mexicans or the Amerindians? Is anyone really that naive?

My problem is that there are too many people here who post this simplistic claptrap along orthodox lines: Once, that is, until Reagan (may his senile ghost walk the earth forever, trying to find the Easter eggs it just hid) destroyed the trust the world had of us because of Iran Contra, the entire world loved America. Then shrub-chimpy-mchitler, whatever, destroyed America and everybody in the whole world hates us. This is the worst crisis America has ever faced, blah, blah, blah, oh yeah, Bush and his Jewish neocons blew up the Twin Towers in order to cash in on the insurance (as well as take advantage of insider trading prior to the event) and to be able to avenge the assassination attempt on Bush I, and hopefully get a playful scritch behind the ears from Dad.

What about the Fucking Revolution? What about the Fucking Civil War? People were kept in chattel bondage! Lincoln was a dead man the day he took office and he knew it. He was probably surprised that he survived until the end of the war. There could've been two fucking countries where there is only one now. But,no, this is the worst time in American history.

My ass!

I get tired of dumb-asses reading Drudge or listening to Randi Rhodes type (I hope she doesn't get knocked from behind by the liquor fairy again, boy that was a mess) or quote fucking John Pilger and pontificate on these pages in lieu of reading several books on a given subject, with an arrogant authority as if they're an expert on the subject.

If ignorance is bliss, then some of these assholes are in freaking Nirvana.

Yeah, the Haitians, Cubans, et al, are willing to risk theirs, and their children's lives to get here, goddamn it! Elian Gonzales' mother gave her life to get here so he would have a better life. As it turned out, he did, because the Castro regime used him for a poster boy. Thanks, Mom.

My son is in the Coast Guard and they have to go out and rescue these people who put to sea in the god awfullest pieces of flotsam you can imagine; shit that has to be sunk because it's a navigation hazard, but you get some dumb ass archly pointing out that they're trying to get to mainland America because of America's imperialist policies. Jesus fucking Christ!

Oh, when these poor downtrodden people are repatriated back to Haiti and Cuba, they fling feces (that's 'shit' for some of you) and bottles of urine at the Coasties, as well as try to spit and scratch them. That's my son, and some of your kids out there, too.

I'm sorry, but I would like to read and participate in meaningful, constructive conversation about America's future without having to hear that America is a Nazi analog, we're evil, we're the worst thing in the world, and the greatest threat to world piece. That schtick gets mighty old.

I want to talk to some fellow Democrats who are proud of this country, proud to be Americans, believe in America first, who want to do the right thing by the world community but put our country on a pedestal where she belongs.


Is that even possible here?

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. The first thing you need to recognize is that we are NOT THAT BEACON

any more

Or did the IMPLICATIONS of the FISA legislations are too thick for you to understand?

DId you miss the Military Commissions Act?

What about the USPA?

ANY country can be closed down... and this one is well in the process... and ANYBODY WHO IS FAMILIAR WITH THE PROCESS can see it and smell it a mile apart.

Now if you don't mind... the manifest destiny, we are great crappola is great for grade school

But you want to discuss about the FUTURE of the country, you first have to see how deep in the shits we are.

Until you do... sorry

Oh and once again, DO use the google and find what blowback means

As to your son.. thank him for his service... what you think you are the only one? My hubby retired from the USN as a USNETC... US Submarine Service....

So keep that but my kid is serving card somewhere else.

[Syntheto]

131. I'll pass that on to my son, but...

...you're wrong. America is a great country. It isn't crapola, it isn't grade school. I don't get my talking points from your so-called news sources and this whole flavor of the month bullshit.

As an aside, I brought up my son to illustrate how desperate the Haitians were to get to mainland America, but also to brag about him. He kidded me about chasing the gas meter reader down the street in order to work it in to a conversation. Actually, I didn't 'run' after her, I just happened to be cutting the grass by her truck, but anyway... Please convey my regards to your husband, also. I spent 5 years in the Navy as a sonar technician. Thanks to my efforts, I can say that the Mississippi River outside of St. Louis is free of enemy submarines. All kidding aside, I know for a fact that the submariner adage of the two types of ships, one sub, the other target is unfortunately very true. We could save a lot of defense money mothballing all our aircraft carriers and most of the surface fleet, as I'm sure your husband would agree.

Sure, let's talk about the future, but you're talking to an unabashed American patriot and very proud to say so. The only power we have, if that, is the vote. How many eligible voters are there in our country? Call it X. Well, you and I have 1/x worth of political power in our country.

The only alternative is violent revolution, and despite what some people write here, I don't believe we're at that stage of the game, yet.

It could've happened after Garfield, Harding and Kennedy, but it didn't.

When the Civil War finally happened, the loose end of the Revolution and the decision by those people to shelve any talk of the slave trade, there were still those, even in the South who said, in effect: "Hey, we've got a system here, let this asshole serve his four years, then we'll boot him out of office".

Inflammatory and willfully irresponsible rhetoric made things intolerable for some, and look what happened.

It's our country, right or wrong, by virtue of our birth, if nothing else, right? However, having brought that old saw out, nothing says that it's course doesn't need to be adjusted once in awhile. If a ship stays the course for too long, it will run aground.

The fact is, this land, like it or not it, is yours and mine, just like Woody said.

Yes, our America began to utilize the slave labor of Africans brought to this country by the British in preindustrial times. Furthermore, our country devised and adopted a system of racism and social Darwinism to cover the stench of the degradation.

Our America set out to destroy the aboriginal people in an unthinking way at best, and a genocidal manner at worst.

Our country bullied Mexico into a war for a big land grab, which fortuitously turned out to have heavy gold deposits in California. Our country bullied Spain into a war to get their Pacific and Caribbean possessions.

Our country bullied Colombia into granting their northern province of Panama independence in order to bully that new government into granting us the rights to dig the Canal.

Our country fought a Civil War over two economic systems, and the only modern comparison would be Albert Speer bragging that not even the big three American automakers could match the output of the slave labor being worked to death at the Nordhausen rocket works/death camp. It wasn't about the humanity, it was, is and always will be about profit. It was hard to compete with a society based on slave labor, so something had to be done. Read the letters from the Civil War; there has never been anything worse in our country's history than that period of our, yes OUR, history. Looking righteous was merely icing on the cake for Lincoln, and ensured that the European powers would not recognize the Confederacy, which was also a part of OUR shared American history. Again, it might make you uncomfortable, as it certainly does me, but it has to be acknowledged that it is part of our country's history.

Is any country better? Has any country or nation been conceived along the same lofty values as we purported ours to be and was able to hold to those principles over time? I submit, that the only way that could happen is to create an immortal Kla-tu type robot who would maintain continuity throughout the ages, and be a fair arbitrator to all people. But, how soon would it be before the elites of all countries and nationalities schemed to unplug the beast because it was cramping their style?

How many nations have used OUR constitution as a template for theirs? How many of those nations have been able to achieve, much less maintain, those values?

I will tell you now, the time for these simple little sound bites are over. Every week it's some new thing to stir the masses. What are the big issues?

They are still Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, the basic ideals of the Enlightenment.

My take on all this negativity is that most people here simply have a visceral dislike of Bush, and seem to labor under the impression that the day Obama takes office, that everything will be peaches and cream.

That is just, well, willfully ignorant and naive. The man's a politician and the best we can hope for is that he's as good a one as Lincoln, the consummate product of the 19th Century American machine political system.

Not much has changed, and as long as there are political systems in place to govern and tax people and manage national resources, they never will.

[NoFederales]

68. Ah, yes, I've been there since Reagan. The things you state are true, and

it will take a vast grassroots coalition to achieve said resistance. Keep prodding the Obama positions, Edwards, Kucinich, Gravel--even Ron Paul's Constitutional positions--as you say, keeping with the same traditional tactics and expecting different results is, indeed, insanity.

State Run Media, a rabid capitalist economy run by State-Corp-Military, an intentional shredding of the Constitution, this isn't Freedom.

I'll be interested to see the affirmations and denials to your OP.

NoFederales

[juno jones]

71. They're just kinder, gentler corporatists. n/t

[Dr.Phool]

74. Kick& Rec!

[treestar]

75. We do not live in a police state now

Far from it. There's nothing wrong with trying to head it off at the pass, but it is :tinfoilhat: to say it's already true. If accused, the courts are still open.

[tom_paine]

77. What we live in is the most advanced form of Totalitarianism the world has ever seen.

http://www.truthdig.com/arts_culture/item/20080515_chalmers_johnson_on_our_managed_democracy

I will say this much...you are correct in that what we live in now lacks the open brutality and barbarism of all Police States that have come before. there is a reason for that.

Please read the article and the book the article was written about, too, if you are so inclined.

[Warren Stupidity]

81. Wrong

First of all your statement: "If accused, the courts are still open" appears to indicate that you believe that the existence of a court system that follows defined procedures somehow refutes the assertion of the OP that we are already living in a police state. The fact that our 'courts are still open" in no way refutes the OP's assertion. The courts have been open in almost all police states.

Perhaps you meant we are not an absolute police state, at the far end of the spectrum, like for example the stalinist regimes of east germany, the USSR, etc., or modern day China. That is true, we aren't at that extreme yet.

Here are some of the features of a police state that we currently have in our society:

a secret prison system exempt from those open courts you cite or any well defined rule of law that guarantees basic legal rights - gitmo being one example of a far flung and secret prison system.

widespread surveillance of the citizenry - on a day when once again our congress appears to be surrenduring to the champions of modern fascism with telecom immunity for past illegal surveillance and implementation of new and sweeping electronic surveillance powers, claiming that we are not a police state because the courts are open seems a bit naive. Your phone calls, your email, your travel, your credit card purchases and bank transactions are all pouring into massive databases and are all subject to whatever analysis the government chooses to apply to that data.

restrictions on political expression - ever since the inauguration of bush (in a corrupt election) and perhaps even before that, public protests at designated events (including anywhere the president happens to be) are restricted under long standing and unconstituional actions by federal and local police forces. Mass arrests of demonstrators - for example at the 2004 RNC in New York - have been used to suppress protests in addition to simply denying protestors access to public events.

militarization of the police force - this has been going on since the late 70s and has now transformed our local and state police forces from beat-walkers to swat-team style military units.

torture and abuse - and this is not just at gitmo or the rest of the gulag. Our entire prison system (which I am about to talk about separately) practices routine abuse and torture of the prison population.

an ever cascading set of draconian laws that have created a corrupt prison industrial complex that uses the irrational and repressive war on drugs and now its vile offspring, the war on terror, to incarcerate truly astounding numbers of people (more people per capita than any other country) many of whom have done little more than commit economic black market crimes. That prison population, as mentioned above, is subject to widespread abuse as pandering politicians 'reformed' our prison systems to discard anything that might be viewed as rehabilitation in favor of harsh treatment and insanely long sentences. Many states now spend more on incarceration than on education.


The development of extra-legal miltias with ties to political parties, such as blackwater, is perhaps the most troubling recent development. Trained and funded through our imperialist adventure in Iraq, these forces have already seen domestic deployment (for example during Katrina) and constitute the prototype structures for the sorts of police state death squad organizations that were the signature of the worst Latin American police states of the Pinochet era (and continuing right up to the present day for example in Colombia.)

[treestar]

124. * and Scalia interpret the Constitution to allow for unlimited executive

power, claiming in "wartime" they get to do whatever they assert they "have" to do. But the Supreme Court rejected those positions.

* has abused the power of the executive branch, and would continue to do so if he could stay in office. Perhaps if McLame is allowed to succeed him, it will continue.

But you can still make an argument based on law in the courts. In a real police state, or anything near it, * would send the military or the police to arrest someone making the argument.

They may want that kind of power, but they don't have it, yet. If they do the surveillance, so far, they cannot use it in courts against people. All of the FISA stuff is like that - it's only when they use it in courts against people that the Fourth Amendment is no longer functioning.

Morans that a good percentage of the American people are today, I do not think they would really stand for it if it got to that point.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. It is the way the system is run

it does not feel like one... but all the mechanism are there

read the Patriot Act

HIPA

All those things

Realize that TSA is not there for your protection, but rather to remind you of the power of the state. Hell, they are not even consistent from airport to airport, expect in the most broadest of sense

Your phone calls have been monitored since before 9.11

I know I self censor and question what I should take on a plane for my readying is monitored

For some books I pay cash, because of the USPA

Just because we don't have guards at every corner asking for your papers, does not mean you are not being asked for them regularly... for you are

The magic of this new system is that it does not feel any different from 2000, yet it is

And the FISA (assuming, and there is a good bet it will) becomes law, one of the last elements of this new state are legally in place

[davekriss]

145. A functioning police state needs no police

So said William S. Burroughs, and he was correct.

[ooglymoogly]

80. TRUER WORDS WERE NEVER SPOKEN. KR -NT

[placton]

83. BARF

Obama (whom I now support, of course, against McCodger) showed us what he is: an old time pol.

[defendandprotect]

90. Wise, but how many are ready for this message here . . . ?

If we measure our freedom by how much influence the public has on Congress, it is damn little!

It is more important to celebrate and understand the little "d" than the big "D" . . .

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. Forget congress, it is time to start resisting

in intelligent fashion

Congress is not there for us...

That was the message yesterday

Ok, some INDIVIDUAL congress critters (124 of them) apparently still believe in the rule of law... yes even one Republican.

But the rest are members of the corporatist party, regardless of letter after their name

That does not mean you should stop voting, even the pretense of an election is nice now and again. But I realize whatever hope is being peddled has nothing to do with the actual word

[defendandprotect]

101. Americans aren't much on understanding resistance . . .

America has barely been political --- !!!

Too many are still too comfortable to actually understand what is going on ---

Even here at DU --- you see this!

I'm with you . . . but I'm just sayin' . . . !!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. All people's yes even the American people

have a moment of political awakening

This country has had them... not recently, but it has

Usually they happen after the Great Religious Awakenings

We are, most likely, at the tail of one of those...

:-)

Take heart, nothing lasts forever...

[defendandprotect]

111. You mean Americans are about to wake up from religious notions?

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. Happened before, when people got tired of the magical thinking

since it really didn't work anymore

So we may be there already

People are very slowly starting to connect dots

[defendandprotect]

126. The "dots" go from organized patriarchal religion . . . to patriarchy . . .

to the war on nature and the war on women --

to capitalism ---

to elite control of government ---

and I don't see a lot of discussion about most of that even here at DU--!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. Peoples have moments of clarity

they do

When they do it ain't pretty, but they do.

And even the American people has had them.

Have some hope and I don't mean whatever Obama is peddling. Will vote for him, but only because his from a party that historically has been better for my pocket book...

[defendandprotect]

132. I always have hope . . .

though it's rather clear that we aren't going to avoid the calamaties of Global Warming --

And will be voting for Obama --

When was the last resistance by the American public . . . ? 1930's . . . ?

And I believe socialists gave large measure of leadership there ---

especially in regard to unions/labor ---

I haven't read enough about this period to really say ---

Only vaguely familiar with it --- probably a good period to take another look at ---

Upton Sinclair, Henry Wallace --- and recently came to understand why Huey Long was

considered such a trouble maker . . . !

:)

This was mainly about classism = proverty to economic democracy = New Deal ---

In the 1960's, African-Americans rose up to end Segretation ---
they delivered themselves from this horror! All in a non-violent movement!

Women continued their non-violent revolution -- and quite large and threatening
response to that as they began to take the movement internationally.

Homosexuals began their movement --

I think we tend to think about this all connected now under human rights --
but it wasn't exactly that way at the time ---

The planet got thrown in there by the 1970's ---
but hard to find any mention of even Earth Day these days ---
and when was the last you heard anything about the Ozone Hole?

[MzNov]

92. K&R

[defendandprotect]

100. Push -- RECCO

[formercia]

104. The Two Party system in the US

Roman bust of Janus, Vatican.

In Roman mythology, Janus (or Ianus) was the god of gates, doors, doorways, beginnings, and endings. His most prominent remnants in modern culture are his namesakes: the month of January, which begins the new year, and the janitor, who is a caretaker of doors and halls.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. So apropriate

[formercia]

106. Look who keeps it on display

so appropriate. There's a message there.....

[defendandprotect]

112. ...and its connected to the MIIC . . .

weapons production and warmongering ---

[halliburtonsux]

108. Arming the Left: Is the time now?

Arming the Left: Is the time now? --by Charles Southwell 21 Oct 2003 As long as we pose no REAL threat to the powers-that-be, to what is shaping up into (is) a dictatorship, we will continue to be ignored. Right now, we are ignored because we present no organized power to fight this onslaught of anti-democratic, totalitarian government that we are up against...

<snip>

[frog92969]

109. Yes, the time is now!

It sickens me when I hear many on the left begging to have their guns taken away, especially at a time like this. It is time for us to arm up for more reasons than one.

I would never advocate the instigation of violence on a public forum, and I'm not doing that now.
But an unarmed state is merely fish food, when they come for us we should at least make it "inconvenient".
$200 for a weapon and $20 for a gas mask is a small price to pay to go out with dignity, and maybe make them think twice before going after our neighbors. How much do people spend on health insurance to never go to the doctor.

We should learn as much as we can from Iraq, because the occupation may be coming home.

[defendandprotect]

114. Guns should work well against tanks, AK47's/missiles, bunker busters . . . are you kidding????

[frog92969]

116. I didn't say they'd "work well".

Though it is working QUITE well in Iraq, they call it insurgency.
Should I walk to the train and give Blackwater a tip?
If it gets to that point it will ALREADY be ugly, a little attempt at self-defense won't make things any worse.

There are those who would rather rot in a cage then die outright.
And there are those who would rather die than take a life.
That's fine, they have that right, but I'm not with them.

I have a family to defend, and defend them I will.
Futility be damned!

Like I said above we should learn as much as we can from Iraq.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. Hell people forget Vietnam and the US War of Independence

which was a rather unconventional war

That said... we are not there YET.

And when we get there, if we can't change course. it will be ugly and the country will not survive it anyhow...

[frog92969]

120. No, we're not there yet

And I want to emphasize that I'm not calling for a "preemptive strike" or any kind of terrorist activity, merely home defense which is our right.
I'm calling for people to upgrade their defenses and realize that it could be a whole new level of thug coming through their door.

If war breaks out, let them start it. Then let it go where it goes.

[conspirator]

123. Preemptive defense. Nothing wrong with that n/t

[frog92969]

134. Except that there's no such thing.

That's called aggression, and it's not a good tool for civilized people trying to bring about peace and justice. As tempting as it might be.

In a world community "moral highground" is an advantage worth having, if we attack unprovoked we instantly label ourselves the "bad guys". If we do that we can hope for little support.

[conspirator]

136. I was agreeing with you. I meant be ready, armed and trained. Not actually being the agressor n/t

[frog92969]

138. Sorry, I read that as a bu$hism.

I completely agree with you agreeing with me.:)

[frog92969]

137. Oh...thanks

Sorry I didn't recognize you as the thread starter, I'm not very forum savvy.

Thank you for starting this discusion, it's a much needed one that too many people are eager to avoid. I guess because it infringes on their comfort zone.

Facts are facts and the machinery is in place for complete domination over us citizens, like you said, they wouldn't setup this dictatorial infrastructure just to let it slip away. I hope I'm wrong but I fully expect them to use it.

Just what we should do about it is a very confusing and brain numbing question to ask ourselves. We've tried diplomacy, aka phone calls, e-mails, petitions, protests, only to have them laugh in our faces and call us "fringe". Diplomacy has failed. So now it looks like a waiting game.

I quit working two years ago, pulled my 36 year old car off the road, pulled my kid out of public school and I eat one or two small meals a day. Me and my wife cook almost all whole, un-prepackaged foods and never spend money we don't have to (though my daughter insists on feeding the Nintendo beast from time to time). We are working towards growing large amounts of food though are being held back by ill-placed trees on our property, I'm ashamed that we haven't worked harder toward that.

It was easy to adjust to this lifestyle since I've never judged my worth on trinkets and beads, though I'm sure everybody can do it and soon may not have a choice.

It's hard to envision what this seizure will look like, after being a consumer nation for so long. Since this Corporate Fascism taking us over is international, I don't think it matters to them what role we play. With China on the rise perhaps they will be the new consumer nation and we will be the manufacturing slave labor, that's my best guess at this point, and I don't find that acceptable.

[defendandprotect]

125. I think you missed the fact that they've been kinda practicing for martial law?

Checking to see whether our national guard will take guns/weapons from friends . .

and family members --- ????

Your gun would be long gone --


Iraq is a land invaded by people from outside ---

We are being betrayed by people within our own nation ---

in fact, by people who control our government, military -- laws.

[frog92969]

133. Missed it? That's my whole point.

[defendandprotect]

140. And you realize that they will take your weapons?

Then what are you talking about?

You're going to fight the national guard to keep your gun?

How?

[frog92969]

142. That's where we agree

If they come for my guns they will take them.:(

[defendandprotect]

143. OK . . . well is the NRA fighting these people or working with them?

[Dogtown]

144. link:

http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/


A resolute people will find the means to resist.

[hardtoport]

135. I have to disagree.

If you were to ask anyone in Iraq who is not in with the ruling Shi'ites, they would say they're fighting an enemy within as well. And they have been fighting that enemy within well enough to have to be bought off by our military in order to lay down their arms. Ask the Iraqi police we're training, the ones who are running away and leaving our soldiers to fight, ask them how effective the insurgency is. Bunker busters are formidable. But so are roadside bombs.

Those on the right would tell me the surge is now working and I'm not listening to the generals on the ground. I'm sorry to tell them that the insurgency has gone nowhere. It is simply counting the money we're giving them and stockpiling the arms we're giving them until their leaders give the word to start the fighting again.

The fact is that without hundreds of thousands more boots on the ground (and BTW, we have more than 300,000 on the ground when you factor in the contractor shadow army ) we will never contain Iraq. The fact is that the U.S. military is resorting to taking felons, the mentally ill, and the walking wounded because they don't have anywhere near the manpower they need. They've exhausted the personnel and equipment of the National Guard, which is not even meant to be used in that fashion in the first place. The U.S. has spent over a half a trillion dollars and 4100 lives in an attempt to neutralize a PORTION of a population of less than 30 million people. If that wasn't enough, Afghanistan, with it's nearly impossible to conquer terrain is stretching our Special Forces and Marines to the limit. And we're poising ourselves to commit our Naval forces to a blockade of Iran.

So, given all that, do you still think our National Guard or military would help this government go rogue and impose martial law in a country of 300 million people and 270 million LEGALLY owned guns? Do you think, given how our fighting forces have been mistreated and lied to by their government, that they would fight against the very same Americans whose freedom they are giving life and limb to defend? I'm not sure the government would be able to even retain a high number of civilian police, if the numbers abandoning the job during Hurricane Katrina are any indication.

I will agree with you that violence should always be the last resort. But it is always an option. And I think you fail to see Frog's point. Whether the government could take your gun in a cakewalk or they had to pry it from your cold, dead fingers, Americans should never simply allow themselves to be rounded up like lambs to the slaughter. Our founding fathers were both trained soldiers like Washington and farmers like Adams. The original American patriots had no bullet proof plan before they went to spill their blood for this country and none asked to be guaranteed victory before they joined the battle.


As the last King George found out after he rejected the colonists attempts to work through the system, power comes not from the laws or the apparatus of government but from the consent of the governed.

[defendandprotect]

141. Like Vietnam, Iraq is not to be won . . . the idea is to keep the war going . . .

and the warprofiteering going for their cronies ---

Iraq is now providing a strong presence for the US in the ME -- and control over OIL --

They will expand into the ME from there ---

[defendandprotect]

113. No arms . . .!!! War/violence put our current Constitution/Bill of Rights in place . . .

and it may be why we're losing it ---

No -- this has to be non-violent revolution --

and we have to hurry up because the planet is about to explode!!!