"I just LOVE to rent guns!" Dealer who sold guns linked to 400 crimes brags. What do you think?

[demobabe]

Check out this commercial:

http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizationsORG/FSA/signUp.jsp?key=2082

He "doesn't want to make money," he just loves to sell and rent guns, even if those same guns end up being used in crimes. In this advertisement for his gun store, Don boasts, with a laugh, "I just love to rent guns."

A recent study linked this firearms dealer to over 400 guns used in crimes, putting him among the top five gun dealers in the country in selling firearms that are used by criminals.

Here's what one of our supporters in Indiana had to say about Don's gun shop:

"I am from Indianapolis, Indiana, where Don loves to sell guns. We are in the midst of a terrible murder epidemic. Everyday, someone is shot and killed or seriously injured. Today, a mother was murdered with her child in her arms! The baby was injured. On the news, people who live in crime-ridden neighborhoods, say you can pick up a gun in alleys. I believe it. Don has been around a long time selling guns. Don't expect him to go out of business anyday soon.

...Don may look funny, but his actions are anything but amusing. He should be forced to attend all the funerals his booming sales have caused."

[northzax]

1. hmm, I have issues with renting guns

I mean come on, renting a gun? I could see this for hunting purposes actually, not everyone can afford a really nice shotgun, for instance, and they should not be denied their rights to hunt (just like people rent skis or snowmobiles or cars) especially with the difficulty of travelling with firearms. But to do this you should be required to show a huntin license valid for that time period, and be registered.

I also don't care about renting of guns at ranges, not to leave the premises. but renting a self-defense weapon, short term? that's just asking for trouble.

[no_hypocrisy]

2. I'm pretty sure that it's illegal to rent guns as the whole point of the

gun laws is to restrict access to firearms by strict registration and prohibition of possession by certain individuals.

[northzax]

3. legal or not

I was making an ethical case. but yes, it should be illegal. or at least it should have so much liability attached to it to make it impossible to do.

[demobabe]

4. I got some clarification on this

Guns can only be rented to be used on the premises. But interestingly, the practice of renting guns at gun stores to use in attached shooting ranges has been the subject of some controversy because there are occasional outbreaks of people renting them to commit suicide AT the gun ranges.

[rinsd]

8. What?

"But interestingly, the practice of renting guns at gun stores to use in attached shooting ranges has been the subject of some controversy because there are occasional outbreaks of people renting them to commit suicide AT the gun ranges. "

Outbreaks? Where?

[demobabe]

14. Just Google "suicides at gun ranges"

I hadn't heard of it before, either. Apparently it's a problem.

[rinsd]

15. I did google. You qualify that as a problem?

Suicides at gun ranges with rented guns are barely on the radar with the exception of their sensational nature which gun control advocates are only to eager to grab onto.

[rinsd]

7. I could see renting guns at a firing range

In fact that makes complete sense and I know of a couple of ranges that do so.

But off the property rental?

[Richard Steele]

9. No state allows anyone to "rent" guns off of the rental property. nm

[michreject]

22. It's not illegal to rent a gun

Thing is that it can't be taken out of the gun shop. People rent guns to try them in the range area before they buy them. This is cheaper than buying them to see if they like them or not.

[benEzra]

16. It's only legal to rent guns for use on the premises of a shooting range...

I mean come on, renting a gun? I could see this for hunting purposes actually, not everyone can afford a really nice shotgun, for instance, and they should not be denied their rights to hunt (just like people rent skis or snowmobiles or cars) especially with the difficulty of travelling with firearms. But to do this you should be required to show a huntin license valid for that time period, and be registered.

It's only legal to rent guns for use on the premises of a shooting range that rents them to you, AFAIK (there may be an exception for rental for movie productions and such). I don't think you can "rent" a gun to someone to take somewhere else and use; that would constitute a sale, which by law involves a mandatory background check and a BATFE Form 4473, and if you do that then the gun legally belongs to the person you sold it to and you can't make them give it back.

Most pistol ranges rent guns so you can try out different makes/models/calibers before you shell out $600 for something you don't like, or so you can shoot a particular type of gun at the range without having to buy it. My wife rented a Glock on a range before she bought her G26, we rented an M1911 .45 ACP together once so she could try one out (she's hooked).

[-..__...]

5. Dons Guns is a bit of a joke amongst the firearms community.

Overly inflated prices...

He's for the AWB but sells "assault rifles" because other gun shops do...

Supports the imaginary "gunshow loophole", not because he believes in it, but because private sales cut into his business.

As for the "Freedom States Alliance"...

They have a lot of balls using the term "Freedom States", while pleading for even more gun control laws.

[twilight_sailing]

6. demobabe, I am not really fond of your OP.

It seems to me that your prejudices are showing.

If you have something to say, say it.

[GoneOffShore]

10. Demobabe I am really fond of your OP

And I understand completely what you're saying.

:popcorn:

[butterfly77]

11. So why does bush think...

americans would be worried about outside terrorists?

[michreject]

23. And that has what to do with this thread?...nt

[enfield collector]

12. I've rented a couple of full-auto guns

before to shoot at a gun shops own range. lots of fun, I'd own my own full auto if not for the outragious cost brought on by un-constitutional laws regarding their ownership.

[Javaman]

13. Conversation recently caught on tape in Don's store...

shifty eyed customer(SEC): you "rent" guns right?

Don: yup for years, you interested in something?

SEC: yeaaaahhhh, something big with lots of fire power that will hide well in a pair of jeans...

Don: now why in the heck would you want to do that? We have a variety of holsters here to choose from...

SEC: Ah yeah, right, show me what you got.

Don removes several high caliber pistols from his display case.

Don: like anything?

SEC picks up a 357 magnum.

SEC (mumbles)dirty harry...

Don: what's that?

SEC: this is the gun that can blow a persons head clean off, right?

Don: Well sure I suppose so, but it's for defensive purposes only, you understand.

SEC: yeah, right, defensive. So if someone was "attacking" me, I could blow them away with this right?

Don: in a pinch!

SEC: I know there is a 3 day waiting period for this right?

Don: no siree bob. It's a rental, you can take it now!

SEC: really?

Don: Darn tootin'!

SEC: what's the return policy?

Don: depends on how long you rent. If you bring it back after a day, no cleaning charge, if you bring it back after a week, no cleaning charge, however, if you bring it back after a month, there will be a cleaning charge.


SEC: why is that?

Don: By that time, the blood is too encrusted to simply wipe off.

[benEzra]

17. See post #16. (n/t)

[EstimatedProphet]

18. Once again, the issue is completely obscured

You cannot rent a gun and leave the premises. They are for on-site range use only. That is true EVERYWHERE.

Don's Guns commercials may be obnoxious, but he's no more at fault for gun crime than any other gun shop.

[demobabe]

19. Actually he IS more at fault

Apparently 400 crimes have been linked to guns sold at his shop, putting him in the top FIVE gun dealers in the country selling firearms used by criminals.

So either he sells a gazillion guns, or somehow he's more lax than other shops in who he sells to.

[piedmont]

20. The stats are meaningless without knowing a few things:

1) How many guns has the dealer sold over the lifetime of the dealer's license?
2) How many of the guns were used in crime by the person who purchased from the dealer?
3) How many of those guns were sold to people who couldn't legally own a gun or to a straw purchaser?

[EstimatedProphet]

21. If you want to talk about selling them, fine

There's possibly a point to that. But the post on the other site is misleading. It talks about his shop RENTING guns, then goes on to talk about high crime rates, as if his renting guns is the cause. It isn't.

[zanne]

24. I just did a Google search on pro-Gun websites...

There are lots of them out there. The message boards are for strong stomachs only. I'm not sure, but I think the most delusional is http://www.packing.org/ OMG. These people do not accept the idea of ANY gun control. Nuts. And these are the people with guns!

[benEzra]

25. Thoughts...from one of "these people"...

I just did a Google search on pro-Gun websites...

There are lots of them out there. The message boards are for strong stomachs only. I'm not sure, but I think the most delusional is http://www.packing.org / OMG. These people do not accept the idea of ANY gun control. Nuts. And these are the people with guns!

I don't just Google the gun boards, I have been posting on them for a decade and a half. Most gunnies I know are people like my wife and I--college educated, middle class, sound mind, good job, and very responsible, productive members of society. The majority are nonhunters.

If you Google +"democratic underground" +holograms, or +"weather modification", you can get some odd posts also. That doesn't mean most DU'ers wear tinfoil hats to protect them from HAARP, or believe that the 9/11 planes were holographic projections.

This may be immensely shocking to you, but we gun owners are actual human beings, and have lives beyond the contents of our gun safes...

It's just that the last thing I need is to have to worry about some gullible politician making me a felon for having a rifle stock he doesn't like the looks of. I have a lot more important things to worry about, on an ongoing basis, so please stay the hell out of my and my wife's gun safe, and let us live by OUR choices rather than yours.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=6165079
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=6175313

These people do not accept the idea of ANY gun control.

Bovine scatology. Nobody is seriously proposing repealing the National Firearms Act,the Gun Control Act of 1968, the NICS point-of-sale background check law, the ban on Kevlar-piercing handgun ammunition, etc. etc. etc.

I'd challenge you to show me any serious national proposals to repeal all gun control.

As one of the "these people" to whom you refer, I'll tell you what I want. What I, and most gun owners, want is no further restrictions on the right of law-abiding adults with clean records to own and use non-automatic civilian rifles and pistols under .51 caliber, and non-automatic shotguns over .51, that meet the NFA Title 1 criteria of the National Firearms Act. That is a far cry from "not accepting ANY gun control."

I suspect you have no idea just how tightly guns are regulated in this country. You know that mere possession of an actual AK-47 or an Uzi without Federal authorization (BATFE Form 4) is a 10-year Federal felony, yes?

That merely changing the stock on an antique SKS carbine can send you to Federal prison, unless the carbine was manufactured before 1957?

That carrying a gun without a state-issued license is a felony in most states?

That being convicted of writing a bad check to a Florida restaurant 10 years ago revokes your right to so much as touch a gun, or a single round of ammunition, for the rest of your life?

The thing is, most of us aren't complaining too much about that. We just want the restrictions on the law-abiding not to be ratcheted further up the scale. We see what happened in the UK and Australia, and we do NOT want to go there.

[zanne]

26. Don't worry; your toys are safe.

And so are all of your delusional assumptions. From the look of gun-lovers on DU, only intelligent, responsible, middle class people have guns! I wonder where all the murdered bodies come from? Oh wait--I'll just go to one of your websites, and they'll provide me with all the the pro-gun statistics and talking points I will ever need. In the meantine, I hope your guns are safe and sound. There are an awful lot of people like me who want to sneak into your house and steal your toys.

[benEzra]

27. Hmmm...

Don't worry; your toys are safe.

Guns aren't toys, any more than computers, sports cars, or light aircraft, and can't responsibly be treated as such. Fun, yes; toys, no. Want a toy, buy an Airsoft.

And so are all of your delusional assumptions. From the look of gun-lovers on DU, only intelligent, responsible, middle class people have guns! I wonder where all the murdered bodies come from?

Well, your gun-banning man Bloomberg (yes, he's a repub, too) says that 90% of murderers in New York had prior criminal records, as I recall.

Roughly 40 percent of U.S. households own guns. Between one fourth and one third of Dems and indies personally owns a gun. Yet most homicides are committed by people who are Federally barred from owning guns, a significant number of whom live in jurisdictions where lawful handgun ownership is practically impossible even for those with clean records.

Gun ownership by criminals is a problem--so address it. But bashing squeaky clean non-criminals because of felons with guns is not all that different than the right's attempt to conflate gay men with pedophiles. You are talking about entirely different populations.

BTW, want to fight criminal violence, then do something about the conditions that create it. Lack of inner-city educational and economic opportunites, and the insanely militaristic approach the U.S. takes toward non-approved herbs. Alcohol Prohibition created lots of gun violence, too...

But, regarding the education level of gun enthusiasts...here are the results from a THR poll on the education level of members there:

< High school............................18..........2.24%
High School Diploma......................90.........11.18%
Associates/Technical school degree......123.........15.28%
Bachelors Degree........................324.........40.25%
Master's degree.........................159.........19.75%
Doctorate +..............................91.........11.30%

I'm PM'ing you the link so you don't think I'm making this up; the accompanying thread gives degrees and specialties. I don't recall if I posted there or not, but I am a technical writer with a B.A. and some master's work in English, and my wife also has a B.A.

Shooting is a very science-intensive, numbers-intensive, law-intensive hobby if you get into it much, and it also requires significant disposable income. So there is a selection bias toward people with degrees.

BTW, would you believe a link from an anti-gun website that said the same thing?

dispatch.third-way.com/articles/2006/01/25/taking-back-the-second-amendment

There probably is no political issue that progressives handle more poorly than guns. Our problems begin with some basic misconceptions about who owns guns and why they own them.

So let’s get a few facts on the table:

* Nearly half of the voting population of America has a gun in the home. That’s right — half.

* And these aren’t hunters. The vast majority of gun owners possess firearms for self-protection, not sport.

* Gun owners don’t live in trailer parks. In fact, gun owners are generally wealthier and more educated than the rest of the population.

* They are not right-wingers. Politically, gun owners are only slightly more conservative than non-gun owners. Their views on hot-button culture issues like abortion and gay marriage are just a tick to the right of all other voters. They attend religious services at the same rate as non-gun owners.

That from a rather prominent member of the gun-control lobby, Jim Kessler (formerly of AGS).

Oh wait--I'll just go to one of your websites, and they'll provide me with all the the pro-gun statistics and talking points I will ever need.

www.fbi.gov is a gun-lobby website?

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_20.html

That's the only stat I'm aware of that I've posted in the last few days (the one that says, you know, that rifles are almost never used in criminal homicides). Guess the Uniform Crime Reports are just a gunnie fabrication, then, and you can only get the real story from the repubs at the Brady Campaign...

Here's another one, showing that despite the hyperbole, the U.S. violent crime rate is still way down from 15 or 20 years ago, despite this past year's uptick. Guess the vast renaissance in gun sales after 1992 or so didn't cause a corresponding increase in the homicide rate after all..



Oh, wait, the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics is another one of those unreliable gun-lobby sites, isn't it?

In the meantine, I hope your guns are safe and sound.

They are, don't worry.

And to quote Plutarch, Пάλιν δ̀ὲ̀ του̑ Ξέρξου γράψαντος 'πέµψον τὰ ὅπλα' ἀντέγραψε 'µολὼν λαβέ'.

(From Moralia, III, Apophthegmata Laconica.)

There are an awful lot of people like me who want to sneak into your house and steal your toys.

But unlike you, I don't have the slightest desire to break into anyone's house and take their stuff, either personally or by proxy, nor do I wish to dictate to others how to live their lives.

[zanne]

28. Ben Ezra; don't PM me.

I can get all the fact and figures you defend on any pro-gun website. I can also get facts and figures that negate yours at any anti-gun website. Why do you think your facts trump my facts? And, since you posted about these facts here, there's no need to PM me with the same statistics. Get it?