sfexpat2000 found a major discrepancy in the FBI's newest spin on Ivins - anthrax case

[suffragette]

On Friday, CNN and WaPo both put out articles with "new details" about Ivins that purported to show Ivins could have driven to Princeton on Sept 17 and mailed the 1st batch of letters.

sfexpat2000 noted that CNN changed the story while she was looking at it from a specified timeframe of "about 4 to 5 p.m." to a more general one and took a closer look at the FBI documents regarding that timeframe. In the meantime, WaPo left the same timeframe in their article.

In comparing that timeframe with the one in the FBI documents, she caught the discrepancy which shows that Ivins could not have mailed the 1st batch of anthrax in that timeframe according to the FBI's own evidence:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3754666

I'm posting this because her original title for the thread highlights the CNN time shift rather than the discrepancy she caught, so people may not be catching that part unless they go to her thread and see it within the thread itself.

This is a major catch by sfexpat2000 and one everyone should see.


edited for typo

[yellerpup]

1. Kick this!

Great work, sfexpat2000. Everyone should see this. :kick:

[suffragette]

4. Be sure to go recommend sfexpat's thread

She made the discovery. I think that thread needs more acknowledgment.

[yellerpup]

6. Tried, but can only recommend threads started in the last 24 hours.

Sorry I missed it when she posted originally. She always brings us something worth reading, usually with a big K&R!

[suffragette]

13. Thanks - forgot that

I should have posted this thread sooner.

At least we can get more eyes looking at her thread and get some more posts on it from insightful DU'ers!

[yellerpup]

20. Right you are.

Another kick. :kick:

[rucognizant]

26. What's this Princeton PO?

IT WAS TRENTON! My son tried to go to the TRENTON PO during that time & found it closed, big inconvenience to him.
Trenton PO would be about a 1/2 drive away from Princeton............ ( always too much traffic in that area.)

[suffragette]

30. Both the CNN and WaPo articles specify Princeton

Here's the part fro WaPo:
Authorities assume that he drove to Princeton immediately after that, dropping the letters in a mailbox on a well-traveled street across from the university campus. Ivins would have had to have left quickly to return for an appointment in the early evening, about 4 or 5 p.m.

That's why I wrote Princeton in my O.P.

[suffragette]

120. You're right> The early reports said the 1st batch was mailed in Trenton, now it's Princeton

http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/ny-nyanth14,0,5467834.story

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:L9O9KIAvSaMJ:www.dailyprincetonian.com/2008/08/04/21283/+anthrax+letter+princeton+trenton&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=safari
Scroll down to where it says"The 2001 anthrax attack"


I'm not familiar with their locations or neighborhoods.

Can you post more about that?

Also. is anyone out there aware of why or when this shifted?

[Mabus]

135. about that princeton address and the Trenton postmark

August 14, 2002

Anthrax Finding Prompts Questions in Princeton About Scientist

***


On Monday, Gov. James E. McGreevey said that anthrax spores had been found in a mailbox on the corner of Nassau and Bank Streets, opposite the Princeton University campus. The box's mail went into the Hamilton Township sorting station, now closed, which processed the anthrax-contaminated mail that was sent last fall to Senator Tom Daschle, the NBC News anchor Tom Brokaw and The New York Post.
http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/nyt2.html#nyt20810

fwiw, when I lived in Lawrence, KS letters would end up with a KC postmark unless I took it into the post office and/or dropped it off in the "mark with local stamp" (or whatever it was called) box.

No matter what, the action of mailing a letter and sending it through the system shows a level of callous disregard for anyone who came in contact with it.

[Mabus]

137. Hmmm. Ivins' dad was Princeton educated

I'm kinda surprised that the FBI didn't cite that as another reason he mailed letters from near the university. ("Ivins, the son of a Princeton-educated pharmacist, was born and raised in Lebanon, Ohio, and received undergraduate and graduate degrees, including a doctorate in microbiology, from the University of Cincinnati." http://www.latimes.com/classified/jobs/career/la-na-anthrax1-2008aug01,0,4758965.story?page=2 )

[Junkdrawer]

2. May also explain why the FBI worked so hard on Ivins's children...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3754666&mesg_id=3765297

[suffragette]

140. Have I told you yet that I think you are making a good point

about this.
Because the more I think about this, the more I think it may be why they applied that pressure to the children.

[bemildred]

3. Oh my goodness, you don't think they would lie to us?

:sarcasm:

[suffragette]

21. As my mom used to say "They lie like a rug."

And sfexpat2000 caught them at it.

[pacalo]

5. K&R!

[EFerrari]

7. Hey!

Does it make any sense to you that someone as stressed out as Ivins was supposed to be could participate in a convoluted plot with others? Because if he didn't mail that first batch, what are the other alternatives? Where was Uri Geller?!

Also, I read last night on Meryl Nass's blog that Ivins was on his own vaccination. He knew that it wasn't perfect and he knew it made people ill even as he was working to refine it and was taking it himself. This topic could be pushed on, imho.

Lastly (for now), there is a stalking story that is being pimped. It's here:

By BEN NUCKOLS, Associated Press Writer Sat Aug 9, 5:05 AM ET

BALTIMORE - A microbiologist claims she was stalked for decades by Bruce Ivins, the suspect in the deadly anthrax mailings of 2001 who, according to court documents, was obsessed with the sorority she joined in college.

Nancy L. Haigwood and her former husband, Carl J. Scandella, also think Ivins may have wanted to get close to her when he moved in down the street from the couple in the suburbs of Washington in the early 1980s.

Ivins, an Army scientist, committed suicide last week as federal authorities prepared to charge him with killing five people by sending anthrax spores in the mail. The letters were dropped in a mailbox near a Kappa Kappa Gamma sorority office in Princeton, N.J., and prosecutors have suggested Ivins chose that location because of its proximity to the office.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080809/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/anthrax_investigation_172

When you drill down, he didn't do anything like that. He seems interested in her at their first contact at university. They lived in the same neighborhood, and they kept up a correspondence. Having been stalked myself, I don't want to invalidate this person because there is enormous pressure on you as if it's your own fault. But,

Haigwood claims he would have had to stalk her to learn where she lived when he was already living on the same street. Her boyfriend didn't even know that. How bad of a stalker could Ivins have been?

From this article: "Their e-mail correspondence from 2002 on was brief and cordial, although Ivins did reveal that he was under a lot of stress."

When did anyone have a "brief and cordial exchange" with a stalker? Stalkers escalate over time, they don't get nicer and more respectful. :shrug:

[suffragette]

12. Also the article notes:

"She reported her suspicions to the FBI in 2002 and, at the behest of investigators, kept in touch with Ivins by e-mail and shared their correspondence with investigators."

So even with her continuing to have email correspondence with him (and I really wonder what the FBI encouraged her to write in those emails) the exchange was still only brief and cordial?

This is sounding closer to the Duley stuff as they put more out on it.

[EFerrari]

15. Exactly. Ivins must have been a very atypical stalker.

:crazy:

[JDPriestly]

24. You are absolutely correct. "brief and cordial exchange" is not

how you describe the contact a stalker has or tries to have with the person being stalked. Usually, the communications from a stalker are rambling, incoherent, confused and sometimes hostile.

[klyon]

36. if he was stalking her and she lived down the street

why would he go to Princeton at all? Why not just go to Philly or Baltimore? Why not mail it from DC, the White House or some place near by? None of this makes sense. I think Bush is just trying to clear up things before he leaves office. Soon we will hear OBL is dead and the troops will leave Iraq.

[EFerrari]

45. They lived on the same street 25 years ago.

That was when this "stalking" was said to have taken place. :crazy:

[truedelphi]

79. You GO! GRR-LL!!

:yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock:

:yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock:

[screembloodymurder]

8. Details, details.

Haven't you been reading the character assassinations.

[Joe Chi Minh]

9. Don't ever test sfexapt2000's credulity with slovenly disinformation...

She'll be all over you guys like a rash.

[suffragette]

10. Please go rec her thread up

This thread is getting the recs her thread should.
Not that I mind recs :) but I really wanted to bring attention to her exceptional sleuthing and get more great DU input on what she discovered.

[Joe Chi Minh]

39. I did, but thanks.

[EFerrari]

32. I resemble that remark.

lol

[JDPriestly]

11. This puts the FBI analysis of Ivins' opportunity in question.

The following paragraph from the FBI report, however, satisfies the issue of motive for Ivins for me:

Beginning shortly after the first Gulf War and through 2001, USAMRID and Dr. Ivins
was the focus of public criticism concerning their introduction of a squalene adjuvant (or
additive) to the AVA anthrax vaccine, which was blamed for the Gulf War Syndrome. In 2000
and 2001, as evident by the e-mails above, that same anthrax vaccine was having problems in the
production phase at Bioport, a private company in Michigan responsible for manufacturing the
vaccine. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) had suspended hrther production at
Bioport, and the U.S. government, specifically the Department of Defense, was running out of
approved lots of the vaccine. The situation placed pressure on select staff members at
USAMRIID, including Dr. Ivins, who were part of the Anthrax Potency Integrated Product Team
(IPT). The purpose of the IPT was to assist in the resolution of technical issues that was
plaguing Bioport's production of approved lots of the vaccines.

http://www.usdoj.gov/amerithrax/07-524-M-01%20attachment.pdf

(page 15 of that document)

Dr. Ivins may have been very frightened by the idea that his work could have resulted in suffering for so many people. I tend to believe the FBI report with regard to Ivins' subsequent obsession with creating a vaccine that passed the tests and could be used.

The FBI report is very helpful in understanding Ivins' psychology. The catch is that Ivins probably was not the only person in that lab who had the motive and there may have been someone else in that or another lab with opportunity.

It is possible that the Post Office goofed on the 17th and did not postmark letters mailed in the early afternoon at that p.o. box until the 18th. The fact that the box was on a busy street argues against my theory, but that is a possible explanation.

Another question: Did Ivins take a lot of anthrax vaccine? Could it (and the many other chemicals he imbibed) have caused his paranoia or worsened it? Maybe I'm wrong, but I attribute paranoia to a chemical imbalance. Any experts on this who could comment?

CIPRO can make you feel pretty weird. I have taken it. Fortunately, I had been forewarned that it might make me feel weired. I suppose if you took it often enough and enough of it, it could throw you off balance.

If Ivins did it, and did it alone, he was a very tragic person -- so brilliant on the one hand, and so paranoid on the other. What a tragedy for all.

[EFerrari]

14. The thing is, Ivins had a new vaccine in the works

and so while he was invested in the one undergoing the pummeling, his work was going forward. The older vaccine was not all he had, in other words. It wasn't an obsession, it was his job, his work as a researcher. There's nothing pathological about wanting to do better than you did last time, right?

And yes, he was on his own vaccine. I don't know what that means, yet.

[Junkdrawer]

16. If that was a motive for Ivins, what about everyone at Bioport??

Why have we heard so little about the FBI's investigation of Bioport?

Not to mention that the resulting anthrax scare created a 50 billion dollar industry.

[JDPriestly]

25. Small aside about Bioport, the company that produced the vaccine.

It is a privatized company from what I could tell, yet I note that Ivins, a public employee, paid, presumably by public dollars, was actually developing its product. How do you get deals like being the primary shareholder in a company like that -- gets its research presumably free or for very little from the government and then sells its product back to the government at a profit? Is that how it works? Free enterprise without the risk???

[EFerrari]

31. Yes! the R&D is done on government time.

What a racket.

[suffragette]

17. Meryl Nass has great info on her blog

about the vaccine part of the issue. And she does bring up that part of the pressure and stress Ivins felt may have been related to problems he knew existed with the vaccine.
http://anthraxvaccine.blogspot.com/

I still can't make the leap from that to him mailing anthrax letters, though.

It's entirely possible for the Post Office to not pick up mail from a box, but the FBI has had years to find out that salient fact and incorporate it into their timeline. If that had happened, it should be reflected in the timeline they specify.

Good point on Ivins possibly being affected by the vaccine.
Nass has info indicating that is likely: http://anthraxvaccine.blogspot.com/2008/08/national-academy-of-science-report.html
Add Ambien and the other meds he was taking and that is quite possible.

[EFerrari]

18. I'm off for a while but wanted to offer this.

What have we seen Dr. Ivins do when stress got unbearable? He drank and he emailed friends and he consulted with a shrink.

There is nothing concrete -- email or letters or conversations with reliable sources -- to show that he imagined hurting other people to relieve his stress. And the leap from imagining such an act and carrying it out is an even bigger one. :shrug:

In the end, the only person we know to a certainty that he hurt was himself. What kind of sociopath does *that*?

[suffragette]

19. Exactly right n/t

[PATRICK]

116. As a postal worker

The odds are the letter was picked up on schedule within the route routine. The PO and the pick up carrier would remmeber in that short time frame if there was anything out of routine. The letter itself is the type to be shuffled out of the autmation machineable routine by the culling machines. A handstamp postmark would suggest it was mainly handled manually. I don't know which is worse. Something like that going through a potential chewing and jamming process in the letter automation or getting handled several times along with other irregular pieces.

The smart bioware guys who researched using the postal service are idiots if their conclusion was to try it themselves. As usual, smart people never ask the workers about the floor realities. Apparently terrorists are less insane to use leaky labs and unstable people in handling invisible death that can't be contained.

The PO would be all over the time frame. Did they include the postal inspectors report? Boxes are never picked up exactly before the cut off. Since times are set at generic intervals the actual route would determine if it is picked up in a few minutes or within an hour. All the opening unit mail has to get to the processing plant in a certain time frame. It is goofy though to include a mad driving route so long as a cover, but then so is using the postal service for a hand printed thick letter packet.

[klyon]

37. if he was upset that his vaccine made people sick, why would he kill

people. This is inconsistent.

[suffragette]

69. Yes, that's a glaring inconsistency.

Very good point.

[PATRICK]

125. I never understood the motivation

outside the money angle, yet it was suggested early on by independent investigators like Barbara Hatch Rosenberg that terrorism and murder were not the main goals. A combination "wake-up" call especially against Dems whom it seems the entire military complex believed to be weak, and a revival of the vaccine industry(hooray for lucrative careers) would have been something to clearly present to the public.

But enter the Cheney brigade and the cover of terrorism helped the perp(s) fog over the motivation. Now in a feverish attempt to close the investigation this mucked up fog makes it nearly impossible to make anyone understand or be convinced. Once the fog clears of course it becomes very obvious as it should have been years ago how many suspects and theories still exist thanks to the FBI doing an intimidation routine and keeping their hands off the shadowy "biodefense" program and to the administration trying to utilize the murk in the war on Americans.

[EFerrari]

138. There really wasn't a money angle. He was hired to fix the BioPort

vaccine (which he also had to take while he worked with anthrax) but, he had another vaccine in development. Either way, he'd have been all right. And it wouldn't have been that much money anyway. I read it said in the standard contracts that people like Ivins could not collect more than $150K per year in royalties (if that's the right word).

[bertman]

22. Very interesting info here. Thanks for the post. I want to follow up on a post from varkam and

liberalheart from last night. Isn't it possible that he could have driven to mail the stuff during the night? And wasn't there an allusion to him driving around at night and turning the odometer back so his wife wouldn't know he was out?

Just wonderin' about this element, so please clarify if you can. Thanks.

[suffragette]

23. Do you mean the questions they posted today?

I just replied at length to that over in sfexpat2000 thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3754666#3768528

sfepat2000 nailed them on the newest specific story that "government sources" told to CNN and WaPo and that they were floating as to how he could have mailed the letters. The sources and "investigators" were the ones saying it could be done in that specific timeline. sfexpat2000 disproved that part using the investigators (FBI's) own timeline from their own documents.

As she noted in her reply to varkam, that doesn't mean they won't bring up those other possibilities or as she more aptly put it "Maybe when they realize what they've done, they'll produce a different time card."

And that's entirely possible. They didn't release in the documents whatever they know or don't know about Ivins' whereabouts later on Sept 17th or Sept 18.

ETA: Just realized we might be in different time zones, so last night for you could still be today for me.

[bertman]

29. I just went back to that thread and read the replies. Yes, it was already today, yesterday. Ha ha.

I'll reread this tomorrow. Need sleep. Thanks for the reply.

[DearAbby]

27. Kickity Kick

[upi402]

28. k/r n/t

[Judi Lynn]

33. Kicking. This needs to be seen.

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[jeff30997]

34. K&R!!!

You and sfexpat2000: :yourock:

[sellitman]

35. I think most everyone here believes Cheney had this guy set up.

Has no one questioned why it was only Democrats who were sent Anthrax?

[EFerrari]

40. Did you see that BradBlog found out Ivins was a Democrat himself?

Yeah, I agree. Cheney did it, we just don't know how yet.

[Wizard777]

41. He was from Maryland of course he's a Democrat.

That's like saying, did you know there are women in the ladies room?

[EFerrari]

43. He was from Ohio.

:)

[Wizard777]

64. He was living in Maryland. If he were a Republican he would have had to live in Va.

We have currently met our quota of Republicans. We have two. Their names are Bob Ehrlich (R) and Mike Steele (R). Even they try to represent themselves as being Democrats. :rofl:

[EFerrari]

65. LOL!

:hi:

[sellitman]

71. That doesn't surprise me at all.

I am willing to bet the government has buried the truth pretty deep.

The digging will be difficult to say the least.

[EFerrari]

74. That the FBI apparently still can't surf the net is in our favor, though.

For example, Ivins' home town paper had some of his letters in their archive. They are pretty revealing of someone with left leaning positions.

It may just be that this snow job they've tried to do and the way they've caused so much damage in so many lives will blow up in their faces -- motivating people to do that digging. I hope so.

One lady who used to work with Ivins at Ft. Detrick said today that she knows that people who are afraid for their jobs right now are keeping quiet. She encouraged people who are not in that position to speak up. And, yes, she was that indirect. I linked her story (Fairfield Resident . . .) below.

[defendandprotect]

106. And a liberal/progressive Catholic supporting female priests, as I recall . .

which might suggest that he wouldn't be a "pro-life" attacker . . .

[EFerrari]

108. His email says, "I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-life but"

If he were anti-choice, he could have just said that straight out and he didn't. :shrug:

[defendandprotect]

126. Interesting . . . ? Doesn't seem to signal that he would be a "pro-life" murderer . .

[lligrd]

38. K&R

[EFerrari]

42. Charles Ivins says Brother's suicide blindsided him.

Weekend Edition Sunday, August 10, 2008 · Charles Ivins can't wrap his mind around the fact that the FBI thinks his brother, Army scientist Bruce Ivins, took deadly anthrax from the lab where he worked, milled it to a fine powder and then sent a handful of poisoned letters to members of Congress and the media.

"Of course, I am blood," he told NPR in an exclusive interview shortly after his brother's memorial Saturday. "I am his brother. And it is very hard for me to accept the idea that he would do something like that. I just can't imagine that — ever."

Charles Ivins was seven years older than his brother Bruce. Charles, a retired pharmacist now living in North Carolina, he is soft-spoken and gentle. When asked to describe his brother, he says he was very intellectual. "He was very sharp upstairs and had a great sense of humor, a great sense of humor."

snip

But each year, as the time for their annual vacation began to close in, there were a lot of e-mails and jokes. This year, the plan had been for Charles to see Bruce at home in Fredrick, Md., in August. Then the suicide happened. Charles and his son were shocked. Charles said they were "blindsided" by it.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93478094&ft=1&f=1003

[EFerrari]

44. Fairfield resident recalls time at Fort Detrick

Fairfield resident recalls time at Fort Detrick; worked with suspected anthrax terrorist
By CAITLIN HEANEY
Evening Sun Reporter
Article Launched: 08/10/2008 07:01:16 AM EDT

Ten years have passed since Fairfield resident Luann Battersby crossed paths as a coworker with a man the government said was the lone person responsible for deadly anthrax attacks, but Battersby said she never would have suspected him.

Battersby worked for eight years as a microbiologist for the government at Fort Detrick in Frederick County, Md., in the same department as Bruce Ivins, the Army scientist who committed suicide last month amid an FBI investigation. The Justice Department said Wednesday Ivins was the "only person responsible" for anthrax attacks that killed five people in the weeks following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.


big snip

While civilians like Battersby work at Fort Detrick, the site has military management, she said. And some people, such as those who want to advance their careers, have stayed quiet about their experience there, according to Battersby.

But the few people not worried about talking about their experience with the government should talk, she said.

http://www.eveningsun.com/localnews/ci_10157273

[EFerrari]

46. Service paints gentler portrait

Service paints gentler portrait
Anthrax suspect said to have been curious and compassionate

By Sara Neufeld | Sun reporter
August 10, 2008

FREDERICK - In the days since Bruce Ivins committed suicide, federal authorities have portrayed him as a mentally ill man who had threatened to kill a social worker and was responsible for the deadly anthrax attacks of 2001.

Yesterday, as about 250 friends, relatives and colleagues filled the dark wooden pews at St. John the Evangelist Roman Catholic Church in Frederick, a very different portrait of the Army scientist emerged.

Ivins, 62, was remembered during the memorial service as a talkative man who liked to understand how everything around him worked. He studied the weather and knew different types of cloud formations. For 28 years, he was an active church member and musician. He enjoyed cartoons, 1950s rock music, using his chain saw to cut firewood and shooting at a range or at boxes and cans in the backyard. He volunteered for the Red Cross.

There was little mention of the allegations that brought a horde of media to stand on the sidewalk outside, save for a reading at the beginning of the service from the book of Job. The pastor, the Rev. Richard Murphy, said Job was falsely accused of sin and felt abandoned, just like Ivins.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/crime/bal-md.ivins10aug10,0,3932330.story?track=rss

[EFerrari]

47. DNA is just anthrax clue, not clincher

DNA is just anthrax clue, not clincher
Its use in distinguishing bacteria is limited. Some scientists want to know what else implicated Bruce Ivins.

By Faye Flam

Inquirer Staff Writer
DNA evidence alone wasn't a smoking gun in the case against Bruce Ivins as the perpetrator of the 2001 anthrax attacks, say microbiologists and other experts who have read details of the investigation released last week.

Genetic sleuthing was useful in narrowing the list of suspects, they say, but it wasn't conclusive since DNA from bacteria doesn't often carry a unique genetic fingerprint the way human DNA does.

snip

Richard Spertzel, a bioweapons expert who worked at the same army lab as Ivins, said the perpetrator had used a sophisticated process to turn the spores into the deadly powder used in the attacks.

He said the machine in Ivins' lab known as a lyophilizer is a common piece of equipment used to dry spores and would not by itself allow someone to create the 1.5- to 3-micron particles used in the attacks.

"He must have used some other new technique that we don't know about," he said.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/front_page/20080810_DNA_is_just_anthrax_clue__not_clincher.html

[defendandprotect]

56. Ivins was heading up the investigation into the "letters" and other samples . . .

ALL of that stuff was in his area and surroundings --- including in the area of

his co-worker --- who had been complaining about the material leaking ---

which led to Ivins' "clean-up" . . .

[EFerrari]

61. And FBI doesn't mention it to the public.

:shrug:

[defendandprotect]

127. That comes from some of the original articles . . . which I'm trying to find the time . . .

to go back and recheck . . .

I'd also like to hear more from the people who responded to the "suicide" and

said that the was not responsible but saw no signs of suicide.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

48. K&R.

[EFerrari]

49. Lawyers skeptical FBI could have convicted Ivins

Lawyers skeptical FBI could have convicted Ivins
Originally published August 10, 2008
By Justin M. Palk



Legal experts said the FBI had a strong case against Fort Detrick scientist Bruce Ivins, the government's prime suspect in the 2001 anthrax mailings, but not necessarily strong enough to secure a conviction.

The case is built on circumstantial evidence, which is admissible in court, and can be enough to secure a conviction, but this particular case would be a difficult one for prosecutors to make, said Scott Rolle, former Frederick County State's Attorney.

Michael Greenberger, director of the University of Maryland Center for Health and Homeland Security, agreed prosecutors would have had a difficult time in court.

"As a former trial lawyer and a former official in the Department of Justice, I do not think as (the case) presently stands it would have convinced a jury beyond a reasonable doubt," he said.

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?storyid=78624

[lovuian]

50. Awesome catch and shows FBI is lying

these people have to quit this crap

[EFerrari]

51. Clashing portraits emerge of anthrax suspect

Clashing portraits emerge of anthrax suspect

Bruce E. Ivins was a well-respected biowarfare expert and obsessive oddball whose eccentricities seemingly blossomed into madness at one of the U.S. government's most secure facilities.

By Stephen Braun,, David Zucchino and Nicole Gaouette, Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
August 10, 2008

FREDERICK, MD. -- Inside Ft. Detrick's cloistered high-security laboratories, Bruce E. Ivins was regarded as a seasoned researcher and an affable, if slightly odd, colleague. He showed up for work in thrift-store clothes, gobbled down powdered milk and foul-smelling lunches of fish and other foodstuffs layered in jars. Sometimes he abruptly dropped to the floor to juggle balls while lying on his back.

That was "just Bruce," colleagues would say, shaking their heads. It was his endearing qualities that were recalled Saturday at a memorial service for the once-unknown scientist.

But there was another Bruce, one who sometimes lashed out in disjointed hostility. Starting in 1982 and continuing through last year, Ivins obsessively contacted a fellow University of North Carolina graduate student he'd known in the 1970s. The woman was a member of the Kappa Kappa Gamma sorority, which FBI officials said may have been "linked to location of anthrax mailings" in Princeton, N.J.

The object of Ivins' fixation was Dr. Nancy L. Haigwood, who now directs the Oregon National Primate Research Center in Portland. Haigwood confronted Ivins in 1982 after she found her sorority's initials scrawled in red paint on her fiance's car and the sidewalk and gate of the condominium where she lived.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-ivins10-2008aug10,0,2766436.story?page=1&track=rss

Note: Wide ranging if at times factually incorrect, e.g., they get the relationship dates with Haigwood wrong, he was polygraphed, etc. Also some mention of Meryl Nass's thoughts on effects of vaccine re mental health.

[EFerrari]

52. Open Questions on a Closed Case (OpEd)

Open Questions on a Closed Case

By GERRY ANDREWS
Published: August 9, 2008


ON Wednesday, the United States Justice Department revealed its evidence that Dr. Bruce E. Ivins, on his own, committed the worst act of bioterrorism in the country’s history. This 18-year veteran scientist of the United States Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases at Fort Detrick in Frederick, Md., is accused of killing five people and sickening 17 others in the fall of 2001. Dr. Ivins died on July 29 of an apparent suicide without a chance to give his side of the story.

After reading the affidavits and listening to the Justice Department briefing, I was both disheartened and perplexed by the lack of physical evidence supporting a conviction.

Dr. Ivins was a friend and colleague of mine for nearly 16 years. We worked together at Fort Detrick. He was a senior scientist, and I was, first, a bench scientist and, from 1999 to 2003, the chief of the bacteriology division.

snip

But even leaving that aside, there are important questions left unanswered. First, isn’t it possible that the manipulation of the contents of the anthrax letters in Dr. Ivins’s laboratory might have contaminated the work environment enough to potentially jeopardize the integrity of subsequent samples taken from the lab? Might that perhaps explain why the anthrax powder used in the attacks was later found to have the same DNA footprint as the other anthrax preparations in Dr. Ivins’s lab? At the very least, wouldn’t this call his guilt into doubt?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/opinion/10andrews.html

Note: Ivins, during his work with FBI on this case, analyzed the letter sent to Daschle. In another article, there's a quote from Mrs. Byrne remembering how amazed Ivins was after inspecting the letter and seeing how light the anthrax was, how it floated around in the bag containing the envelope.

[defendandprotect]

107. Right . . . and they didn't understand that this stuff was going to float around their work area --!

It was only later on that his co-worker was complaining about what she thought was

"leaking" anthrax from the samples and "letters" they were studying --

which led to Ivins cleaning up the area --- which he got in trouble for later on.


This stuff was so floatable that the Daschle letter contaminated the offices of

Feingold who was located behind him/around the corner/? in the building.

[orleans]

53. k&ring for the original--and thanks for posting this. i missed the orig. n/t

[EFerrari]

54. Ha! Greenwald led with this today! Good job, suffragette!

Sunday Aug. 10, 2008 07:12 EDT
What's the answer to this?

A commenter here on Friday noted what appears to be a rather glaring contradiction in the case against Bruce Ivins. In response to criticisms that the FBI's case contains no evidence placing Ivins in New Jersey, where the anthrax letters were sent, The Washington Post published an article -- headlined "New Details Show Anthrax Suspect Away On Key Day" -- which, based on leaks from "government sources briefed on the case," purported to describe evidence about Bruce Ivins' whereabouts on September 17 -- the day the FBI says the first batch of anthrax letters were mailed from a Princeton, New Jersey mailbox.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/10/anthrax/index.html?source=rss&aim=/opinion/greenwald

[suffragette]

59. The commenter is Junkdrawer

If you click on the hyperlink "a commenter here" in the 1st sentence it leads to:
http://letters.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/radio/2008/08/08/anthrax/permalink/be7ec4d7d071dc887bc4e2ecf50360ff.html

Junkdrawer rocks!
Team DU rocks!

I just got online this moment. Has anyone seen/told Junkdrawer yet?

[EFerrari]

60. Go, Junkdrawer!

:applause:

I haven't seen Junkdrawer yet, but great job.

[Junkdrawer]

67. I posted another letter giving you the credit. I posted the original letter...

with a link to your thread, not knowing that in Salon's Leters section that link would only activate if you clicked on my name.

The new letter is here:

http://letters.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/10/anthrax/permalink/e07cf0bb2edce49b7e90a083e1e8e2ad.html

[EFerrari]

68. Oh, it's fine. Thanks. I can bearly navigate over there anyway.

The main thing is that Glenn gets it. :hi:

[defendandprotect]

55. Get this into the large Anthrax file that's around here somewhere . . .

[defendandprotect]

57. Great sleuthing, sfexpat2000 -- !!!

[EFerrari]

58. I only noticed it because someone took out specific information

in the original article and put in general information -- isn't that the opposite of reporting?

This happened another time, too, with the description of the "vandalism" on Haigwood's boyfriend's car. One report says the spray paint was done carefully so as not to damage the car and in all subsequent versions of the story, that part drops out. :shrug:

[Mabus]

62. The media is just looking out for us

Besides, why are you looking at the details? Why aren't you just saying "case closed" and moving on? Why do you hate America? ;)

[EFerrari]

63. CSPAN is rerunning the Justice Dept Mendacity Briefing again now.

:)

[Mabus]

72. Thanks for the head's up

I caught the last ten minutes or so of it. Right before it ended a friend of mine called. I told him about your information and how it ended up in Greenwald's article. He's a blogger on HuffPo and I'm going to start bugging him about doing an entry about you, suffragette and the others who are doing the work that the media doesn't.

:thumbsup:

edited to correct the spelling of suffragette's name.

[EFerrari]

75. I was able to get the info to Paul Kemp on Friday. That was cool.

Ask your friend how the heck to submit to HuffPo. I must be dim because hell if I can figure it out. lol

[Mabus]

76. He was sent an invite to become a blogger

and, I've been trying to entice him to post on DU. Stuff that you guys are doing will help me show him that we are a force to be reckoned with. ;) fyi, here's my buddy's huffpo addy: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-rosenblatt

[EFerrari]

82. Cool.

I love the chaos and the infinite, Cleopatra-like variety of the net. :)

[Mabus]

91. Like I was telling my hubby

Ten years ago we'd be sitting around talking to ourselves (or the friends that would still listen) that something wasn't right. Fewer of us were lucky enough to have a computer at home, much less have a common place on the internet to discuss and help each other. Vive la Tubes!

Every day I thank Al Gore for helping to bring the internet to the people.

[suffragette]

81. Include yourself in that, Mabus

You have been asking insightful questions and pointing out major inconsistencies in the stories being floated on this.

[Mabus]

113. I don't think I've contributed that much

I'm certainly learning a lot more than I'm adding. Thank you though. I do what I can.

[EFerrari]

124. You created the permissive environment. Don't try to get out of it now.

lol

[Mabus]

131. Blame CNN

They're the ones who taught me to speculate wildly. :rofl:

[EFerrari]

66. Speaking of details, the FBI says they interviewed him "several" times.

Ivins' attorney said he was interviewed 25 times.

Maybe FBI's problem is that they can't mfing COUNT.

[suffragette]

70. It's ironic that their attempt to change the specific data

to something more general (and something that might not trigger as many questions) is what led you to the discrepancy.

That part is very important.

CNN and WaPo were clearly fed the same info for their articles. They used pretty much the same phrasing. I keep wondering if someone at CNN noted the discrepancy and that's why they changed it - to make it less noticeable. If that's the case, CNN still printed the allegations after realizing they were false.

[EFerrari]

73. Last week it was physically difficult to keep up with the stream

of leaks -- what they were and who had them, all the iterations, what was kept in and what was edited or changed. I wonder what got by us, as many of us as there were / are trying to keep track of these reports. . .

[suffragette]

77. Greenwald notes in his latest "The FBI dumped a large number of uncorroborated conclusions

on Wednesday, carefully assembled to create the most compelling case they could make, and many people -- as intended -- jumped to proclaim that it was convincing. But the more that case is digested and assessed, the more questions and the more skepticism seem to arise among virtually everyone."
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/10/anthrax/index.html?source=rss&aim=/opinion/greenwald


Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing. As holes are found in their stories, they morph the story to plug the hole while tossing out more stories at the same time. And they keep trying to characterize Ivins in certain ways. Even these are inconsistent, though.

[EFerrari]

80. The "stalking" story is important to FBI because it's really the only

instance of "anti-social" behavior they can point to. Is that right? Am I forgetting something?

I get a feeling the story has been distorted and padded like all the other material has been distorted and padded. That might be another place to go push.

[Mabus]

86. See my post (right below) about his PO Box

It is part of the "degenerate" behavior that is part of this "Jekyll and Hyde" morality tale that encourages the idea that everyone is suspect. It feels like the FBI was on a witch hunt and they've decided to stop the Inquisition with Ivins.

The stalking and the "women in blindfolds/PO Box" story also help to drown out that this anti-social guy was active in his church, started a juggling club, that he was married and had adopted children, that he helpful around the neighborhood and generally well-liked by a lot of colleagues who think he is being unjustly accused and sentenced.

[EFerrari]

87. You're right. They've tried to put together a continuum.

In one of the articles I've linked below (maybe the L.A. Times "clashing" article) his brother Charles relates how this "sociopath" visited their dying aunt in her last days to read to her. Not something you'd expect a foremost, internationally respected expert to do -- unless he was also an engaged family person. F#ck the FBI.

[suffragette]

90. I was just thinking about that one after reading Greenwald's latest

One paragraph he wrote, though not about that specific story, made me think more about where it fits in and the purpose of it.


From Greenwald's piece:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/10/anthrax/index.html?source=rss&aim=/opinion/greenwald

The FBI's total failure to point to a shred of evidence placing Ivins in New Jersey on either of the two days the anthrax letters were sent is a very conspicuous deficiency in its case. It's possible that Ivins was able to travel to Princeton on two occasions in three weeks without leaving the slightest trace of having done so (not a credit card purchase, ATM withdrawal, unusual gas purchases, nothing), but that relies on a depiction of Ivins as a cunning and extremely foresightful criminal, an image squarely at odds with most of the FBI's circumstantial evidence that suggests Ivins was actually quite careless, even reckless, in how he perpetrated this crime (spending unusual amounts of time in his lab before the attacks despite knowing that there would be a paper trail; taking an "administrative leave" from work to go mail the anthrax letters rather than just doing it on the weekend when no paper trail of his absence would be created; using his own anthrax strain rather than any of the other strains to which he had access at Fort Detrick; keeping that strain in its same molecular form for years rather than altering it, etc.).

I bolded the pertinent part.

I think the stalking story is serving two purposes:

1) exactly what you noted - it's being use as the instance of anti-social behavior.

2) It's being used to characterize Ivins as cunning, deceptive and obsessive.

From http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1218165908122730.xml&coll=7

Haigwood agreed with the brother's assessment. She said Ivins was deceptive, obsessive and "an OK scientist who . . . did, I'm sure, adequate work."
~snip~
"He denied it, but there was no question it was he," she said. "He was really good at snooping, even in the 1980s."

[EFerrari]

92. The latest iteration has a sentence by her that says

he thought he could do anything to anyone at any time. That wasn't in the original. (I'll have to dig up the versions.)

But, the point is, that was 25 years ago. And in the original stalking article, their exchange was said to be "brief and cordial".

Excuse me? When is a stalker "brief and cordial"? :wtf:

ETA: Link to original iteration of stalking story:

http://www.theworldlink.com/articles/2008/08/08/news/doc489c9142775d1928847247.txt?redirect=y

Link to expansion is in L.A. Times (elsewhere too, but I found it here today):

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-ivins10-2008aug10,0,2766436.story?page=1&track=rss

ETA: "Brief and cordial" refers to 2002 email correspondence.

[suffragette]

97. "brief and cordial" and "not a nice guy" simply do not match

This is starting to appear strikingly similar to the Duley audio. Where they have concrete evidence they might have to produce at some point, in this case the "brief and cordial emails, they have to represent them as they truly are. Very similar to the two voicemails from Ivins to Duley which she gave to the FBI and in which Duley noted about one that Ivins said his piece calmly. The other accusations are unsupported allegations, again very reminiscent of the Duley ones.

They are starting to include allegations from an earlier counselor they say Ivins worked with at the same center as Duley in these articles. Still no comment from their supervisor, as far as I've seen.

[EFerrari]

99. If they leak these bits slowly, it starts to "feel" as if they have more

than they really do and as if it all adds up to something concrete, doesn't it?

Ivins had no criminal record at all when FBI started pushing on him. None.

[defendandprotect]

112. Ivins stalked Nancy Haigwood "for decades" . . . ??????

Nancy Haigwood, director of the Hillsboro center, says stalked her for decades --

-- did she file a restraining order against him . . . ??

perhaps notify his superiors -- ???

Any record of the e-mails -- ????

[suffragette]

136. All good points

As sfexpat2000 noted the emails are described as "brief and cordial." Doesn't quite match, does it? Rather like Duley, when it's evidence they actually have (and might have to produce), it sounds the furthest thing from threatening. The rest are allegations.

[Mabus]

83. And I have a weird theory about Ivins' time in the lab (or mabus acts like a CNN reporter)

It isn't "polite" but, Ivins had a PO box to which pictures of blindfolded women were allegedly delivered. What if he was spending his evening hours looking at pictures and/or other materials that he picked up from his post office? In a weird way it might help explain why on three consecutive nights he spent the same exact time at the lab. This is way out there but let's say he picked up a couple of movies from his PO box and took them to his lab where he knew no one else would be. Movies have a set time. If he went to the office, and no one else was there, he could go straight to his desk and watch the movies, do whatever else he did and then put them up and leave. It would take the same amount of time every time he did it.

And, what if he spent some of those hours, when he would take long drives, picking up something from his PO box and going off to be by himself? Since he had alcohol problems, he was probably very adept to hiding things. What if his wife knew to look for bottles, etc. and so the only "safe" place he could have his PO Box materials was the office? And for only short periods of time?

I know, that all of this is out there, but I noticed that the story that he had a PO Box where he received fetish pictures (and presumably other material) has disappeared too.

[EFerrari]

84. It's entirely possible. And then, he has to look at the prospect

of defending himself against a murder charge by confessing to drinking and porning.

But, remember that even that bit -- that he got porn of some type at that mailbox -- has been filtered through the Bush Justice Department. At this point, I wanna see video of Ivins opening his mail on site and whistling at the girls because they've lied about SO much.

[Mabus]

88. Time I start printing out and reading those search warrants

When did they find out about the PO Box? Were they monitoring it or did they find mail addressed to it in his effects? It came out about the same time that Duley's testimony at the RO came out. Speaking of which, has Duley issued the statement her boyfriend said she would? Remember he said "She sacrificed all this stuff because she wanted to do the right thing. She'll soon reveal what many wouldn't because they didn't want to be involved with it." What the hell does that mean and why did she have to go an undisclosed location?

[EFerrari]

89. There is an article. And I will withhold my big fat opinion until you see it:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/09/AR2008080902108.html

[Mabus]

96. Once again the story has changed

for example, she went from saying "my assigned FBI agent" to hardly any connection to the FBI at all. Maybe it is just me, but it doesn't flow the same way in this telling.

And if Ivins last threat to someone was in 2000 then this count as a history of events?

Ivins's psychiatric problems and homicidal threats predated Duley, according to a counselor who saw Ivins for four or five sessions in 2000 at the same Frederick clinic. In an interview with The Post last week, the counselor, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said that the scientist was obsessed with a young woman and had "mixed poison" that he brought when he went to watch her play a soccer game. The counselor contacted the Frederick police but was told that unless Ivins had provided the full name of his intended victim, there was little that could be done.

The article also says something about the type of therapy that Duley did:

In January, Duley was hired by Comprehensive Counseling Associates in Frederick to launch a program that used the drug suboxone to treat people addicted to painkillers. She would not describe her interaction with Ivins, but during the restraining-order hearing she said she saw him once a week for group therapy and every other week on an individual basis.

Ivins was abusing vodka, sleeping pills and anti-anxiety medication, according to a fellow scientist who is in recovery from addiction. The scientist told a Washington Post reporter that he was in contact with Ivins through Ivins's two stints in psychiatric and detox facilities this spring.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/09/AR2008080902108_3.html?sid=ST2008081000071&pos=

here's some info on Suboxone

Before taking Suboxone, tell your doctor if you have:

* lung problems or difficulty breathing;
* a head injury or brain problem;
* liver problems;
* kidney problems;
* gallbladder problems;
* adrenal gland problems, such as Addison's disease;
* low thyroid (hypothyroidism);
* enlarged prostate gland;
* problems urinating;
* a curve in the spine that affects breathing;
* severe mental problems or hallucinations (seeing or hearing thing that are not really there); or
* alcoholism.

You may not be able to take Suboxone, or you may require a dosage adjustment or special monitoring during treatment if you have any of the conditions listed above.
http://www.drugs.com/suboxone.html

While it is only a guess as to how long (that's an issue that's sidestepped in the article) or what kind of treatment he was receiving, it is one of the methods to Duley used to treat patients. It may be one of the reasons that he was seeing Duley was to get over his addiction to painkillers.

I could throw in that Ivins died from an overdose of an OTC painkiller commonly used for headaches.

[EFerrari]

98. We can look forward to yet another leak about this poison

or whatever happened if public opinion seems to shift away from FBI as it seems to be doing. If you search BI, most of the stories that come up today are positive or skeptical of FBI.

[suffragette]

100. Suboxone, Ambien and Celexa

What do all three have in common? All have been brought up directly (in the case of Ambien and Celexa) or indirectly (as above) as drugs Ivins was or may have been taking. What else do they have in common?

Just as you noted about Suboxone and I did in an earlier thread about Ambien, Celexa is also a drug with a warning about not taking it if you have any of the symptoms Ivins is purported to have.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-ivins7-2008aug07,0,7009071.story

Ivins' problems before and around the time of the mailings -- including strange physical symptoms and treatment with Celexa, an antidepressant -- were detailed in e-mails and other documents released to reporters after they were unsealed by a federal judge.

On June 27, 2000, Ivins wrote in an e-mail to a friend: "Even with the Celexa and the counseling, the depression episodes still come and go. That's unpleasant enough. What is REALLY scary is the paranoia."


http://www.drugs.com/celexa.html

Celexa side effects

Get emergency medical help if you have any of these signs of an allergic reaction: skin rash or hives; difficulty breathing; swelling of your face, lips, tongue, or throat.
Call your doctor at once if you have any new or worsening symptoms such as: mood or behavior changes, anxiety, panic attacks, trouble sleeping, or if you feel impulsive, irritable, agitated, hostile, aggressive, restless, hyperactive (mentally or physically), more depressed, or have thoughts about suicide or hurting yourself.Do not use Celexa if you are using an MAO inhibitor such as isocarboxazid (Marplan), tranylcypromine (Parnate), phenelzine (Nardil), rasagiline (Azilect), or selegiline (Eldepryl, Emsam). Serious and sometimes fatal reactions can occur when these medicines are taken with Celexa. You must wait at least 14 days after stopping an MAO inhibitor before you can take Celexa. After you stop taking Celexa, you must wait at least 14 days before you start taking an MAOI.

Before taking Celexa, tell your doctor if you are allergic to any drugs, or if you have:
liver or kidney disease;
seizures or epilepsy;
bipolar disorder (manic depression); or
a history of drug abuse or suicidal thoughts.
If you have any of these conditions, you may not be able to use Celexa, or you may need a dosage adjustment or special tests during treatment.

[Mabus]

102. If Ivins were the lone culprit

On October 28, 2001, a 61-year-old Vietnamese hospital worker, Xinh Thi (Kathy) Nguyen, was taken to New York City's Lenox Hill Hospital's emergency room. She was complaining of shortness of breath, flu-like symptoms and coughing up blood-tinged mucus.

Initially doctors suspected that she had heart problems. When it was discovered that her heart was not the source of the problem, they thought she might have developed pneumonia. However, when x-rays were taken of Nguyen's chest, they discovered that she had a widened mediastinum, which was symptomatic of inhalation anthrax. Immediately, doctors put her on cipro, but it was too late.

***

FBI investigators tried to determine how Nguyen had come into contact with the disease. It was assumed that she contracted it from an anthrax-laden letter, yet they were unable to find any evidence of such a letter or spores in her mail. An examination of her Freeman Street apartment in the Bronx and Manhattan Eye, Ear and Throat Hospital where she worked also failed to yield any evidence of anthrax.

By far, Nguyen's case was the most puzzling to investigators because her illness had not been directly linked with mail like the previous cases. In fact, according to an article by Kevin McCoy and Charisse Jones, exactly how she "came into contact with the lethal spores had baffled scores of detectives, scientists and public health experts." To date, the source of her infection remains unknown.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/terrorists_spies/terrorists/anthrax/10.html

So how did Nguyen come into contact with inhalation anthrax? Was the source of Nguyen's anthrax the same as the flask in Ivin's office? If so, how did Nguyen become infected? Was there more than one person who had access to inhalation anthrax?

And what about Ottilie Lundgren?

Initially, investigators did not know how she (Lundgren) could have contracted the disease. Then they realized that it was likely that she handled mail that was cross-contaminated by either the Daschle or Leahy letters, which had probably passed through the Trenton, New Jerseypostal facility on its way to the postal processing center in Wallingford, Connecticut, where her mail was also processed. Although there was no anthrax spores found at Lundgren's home, there were some found at the Wallingford postal facility, which later resulted in the site being closed down temporarily for decontamination.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/terrorists_spies/terrorists/anthrax/10.html

We were told that Lundgren had come in contact with mail that was cross-contaminated by either the Daschle or Leahy letters. So, shouldn't there have been more letters contaminated? How much anthrax had they been exposed to, then think back about Ivins de-contaminating a co-worker's (who didn't contract or spread the anthrax spores) desk. Just how potent was this stuff? How much was needed? And were all these strains of anthrax the same? Just how much "live" inhaleable anthrax strains are out there and used in the fall of 2001?

[MGKrebs]

103. Very interesting.

Y'all are proving that the new media can be more important the the MSM if we make it so.

I have a question regarding this quote from the above post:
"...was told (by the police) that unless Ivins had provided the full name of his intended victim, there was little that could be done."

A professional counselor reports a mortal threat, and the cops want the perp to identify the victim in advance for them? That seem like very poor police work. Or is there another explanation?

[Mabus]

109. I can understand their point of view

First off, I have questions about the counselor who called. How much and what kind of experience did this counselor have? Was this something that came out of the blue or was it something that he came into treatment for? Sometimes I wonder what the turnover rate is at that facility? Duley came in January and she's gone. You notice that it does not identify whether or not that particular counselor still works there. It just says the counselor treated Ivins at that facility in 2000 but it dances around whether or not they are still employed there.

As for the report to the police, the first thing they are going to think is that absent any particulars, that unless a crime has actually been committed or have a reasonable belief that one will occur imminently, they will not intervene. This highlights another deficiency in this article (which understandable considering therapist/client confidentiality) and that is, was this incident a isolated episode or a pattern? The counselor says that they only treated them four or five times. Was he "obsessed" to the point where he was stalking her? Or was he having mental problems, exacerbated by work stress and/or his addictions, such that he said something like this to his counselor to get attention? Is there any evidence that Ivins was at the lab in the early part of 2000 at strange hours so he could concoct some type of poison? Is there anything unusual about his time sheets at that period? Was the counselor aware of where Ivins worked and what he did and did he contact them? Was this something that concerned the counselor enough that he talked to Ivins' wife and, while not revealing what was said, express to her that he was concerned about Ivins' mental state?

[suffragette]

94. I noticed that story disappeared rather quickly

And it's an angle I think they would have worked much more if they had solid proof. Did they ever produce any of this?

Not discounting your theory at all. It makes more sense than many of the ones the "sources" and "investigators" are floating in the media.

[EFerrari]

95. Maybe it disappeared because it tends to exonerate Dr. Ivins.

Like just about every other piece of "evidence" FBI pushes. :shrug:

[defendandprotect]

115. What proof is there that pornography was delivered to this mailbox . . .???

How long did he have the mailbox might be a question to ask because I'm sure that if

lots of stuff in plain brown wrappers was coming to him --- or consistent addresses --

people sorting the mail would notice it ---

Aren't they trained to be "watching" . . . ?


When we have conflicts here about his character and what he was doing . . . I'm going

with families and friends -- more believable.

[liam_laddie]

128. opening mail...

Doesn't the gummint open private mail "on occasion?" Like maybe an FBI suspect's? I think they snoop our hard copy as well as digital missives all the time...in the name of "protecting our freedoms." The anti-constitutional bastard Cheney and all his associates need braided hemp neckties. NOW!

[Mabus]

130. It was part of the information leaks

and is referenced in numerous articles like this one at commondreams, And then there is the Hatfill-like leaking of scurrilous information about Ivins, including the fact that he had — as the NYT put it today — “a history of alcohol abuse, had for years maintained a post office box under an assumed name that he used to receive pornographic pictures of blindfolded women.” http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/08/05/10827/

[defendandprotect]

134. Thank you . .. I've just read the article quickly . . .

and, yes, using porn doesn't make him the Anthrax attacker ---

but I still see no verification, except the FBI saying this was going on.

I would imagine that he might have also gotten a lot of scientific periodicals and

other stuff that he might not have wanted mixed in with his private mail ---

My junk mail requires its own PO Box!!

[defendandprotect]

105. Autorank started a thread with lots of info and hopefully "anthrax" threads have . . .

been getting added to it ---


there are a couple of articles I want to go back and look at again ---


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3728633&mesg_id=3728633

[defendandprotect]

104. Not everyone is going to check all versions . . . so you did a good thing there -- !!!

[deaniac21]

78. Amazing....

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

85. It is, isn't it? FBI motto: "Fidelity, Bravery, Integrity"

:shrug:

[Mabus]

93. Where do Ottilie Lundgren and others fit in?

And why Lundgren?

Investigators scour anthrax victim's home

November 23, 2001 Posted: 8:00 AM EST (1300 GMT)

OXFORD, Connecticut (CNN) -- Investigators conducted an "inch-by-inch" search of a Connecticut widow's home in this quiet New England town Thursday, looking for clues to determine how she contracted inhalation anthrax, which killed her one day before Thanksgiving.

Ottilie Lundgren, 94, became the nation's fifth anthrax fatality since letters laced with the deadly bacteria began turning up in the mail last month.

****

Lundgren died Wednesday at Griffin Hospital in Derby, the same day the CDC confirmed she had inhalation anthrax. She became the nation's 18th such case since early October. There have been 11 inhalation cases and seven cutaneous, or skin, cases.

Her case puzzles investigators because she had no known connection to government offices, postal facilities or news outlets, which have been tied to all but two of the other 17 cases.


http://archives.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/11/22/anthrax.death/index.html

[EFerrari]

101. I wish I knew something about vectors.

Because Lundgren makes no sense if you start from Frederick (to me, anyway). :shrug:

This may be a good question to raise with Meryl Nass.

[defendandprotect]

117. Since it was "inhalation" it seems to connect her to the Daschle letter . . .

and/or the Leahy letter which didn't end up in Leahy's office -- but got

misdirected!

The anthrax from the Daschle letter --- which did end up in his offices ---

was so floatable that it also reached Feingold's offices which were behind his.


And the date when it reached her seems quite late in the whole timeline . . . ?

[Mabus]

132. Another reasonable explantion is that she had had a low-level infection

for over a month before it flared up.

I found this,

Lundgren died Wednesday morning—“a very sweet lady who was beloved by her family … murdered,” said Dobuler. She was the fifth American since early October to be killed by anthrax. Although investigators never found anthrax spores in her house, Hadler said investigators are now “pretty sure” that Lundgren was exposed to contaminated mail. Spores were later found on four mail-sorting machines in the Wallingford, Conn., distribution center, including the bin that contained mail for Lundgren’s route.

Hadler says the case seems to disprove animal studies suggesting that thousands of spores are needed to cause an infection. “In theory,” he said, “one spore, in the right place at the right time, can do it. She seems to have had a low-dose exposure.”

http://yalemedicine.yale.edu/ym_sp02/alumni.htm

edited to correct html formatting.

[defendandprotect]

133. Well . . . that's new information ....

Spores were later found on four mail-sorting machines in the Wallingford, Conn., distribution center, including the bin that contained mail for Lundgren’s route.

I didn't see that in the prior report ---

they did mention that they thought her mail had somehow gotten contaminated by mail to her
from DC -- but this is the first I read about the postitive tests at the PO --

How ironic to live to be 94 and then get hit indirectly with side-swipping of mail addressed
to you ---!!!

[Junkdrawer]

110. FYI: Glenn's critics over at Salon are really graping at straws...

Maybe the last pickup at this box was 1 or 2 PM? (Like the FBI would have got that detail wrong.)

Maybe the postman made his final pickup early? (4 hours early??)

Maybe the postman skipped pickups that day.

http://letters.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/10/anthrax/view/index.html

[EFerrari]

114. I was just over there. And they all miss the point that Ivins is innocent

until proven guilty.

FBI hasn't proven anything and, indeed, has asserted stuff that we now know cannot be true. :shrug:

[Junkdrawer]

118. If there are, in fact, paid Administration trolls, that's where they'd hang out...

Glenn's been driving this story...

[EFerrari]

119. Yes, he has been really good.

I hope he gets a break. :)

[suffragette]

122. He says at the bottom of his article that he's going on vacation for a week

[Mabus]

121. The majority are asking questions though

[suffragette]

123. Looks like they have a couple hard-core trolls over there

Quite a few posters get it, but that one in particular seems to be well-known as a troll and is being purposefully obtuse. Trolls like that do tend to overshadow the landscape though, don't they?

[HughMoran]

111. K&R

interesting...

[Major Hogwash]

129. They couldn't convince me now if they found Mustard in the ballroom with the candlestick.

Seriously, the Bush admin has absolutely no credibility with me whatsoever!

Oh, look - they raised the Homeland Security warning color from yellow to orange!!!

Fuck 'em!

[David Zephyr]

139. Kick this back up where it belongs. Kudos to sfexpat2000.

Thanks suffragette for your OP and to sfexpat2000 for having such a good eye and sharp mind.