US begining airlift to Tbilisi along with troops and the US Navy headed into the Black Sea.

[bushmeister0]

AP:

"U.S. military planes began delivering aid to Georgia as Washington stepped up support for a shaky ceasefire with Russian troops around the breakaway region of South Ossetia . . . A U.S. C-17 military aircraft carrying supplies arrived in Georgia and a second flight was planned for Thursday.

Bush said the United States expected Russia to allow humanitarian supplies into Georgia and ensure that all lines of communication and transport remain open.

Speaking in Tbilisi, Saakashvili said Bush's pledge meant Georgian ports and airports would be taken under U.S. military control -- a claim swiftly denied by the Pentagon."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080814/ts_nm/georgia_ossetia_dc

What's going on here? Another Berlin Airlift? And what's really on those planes and how long before Russia decides it's not ensuring "that all lines of communication and transport remain open"? What do we do then? Fly CAP over Tbilisi and hope the Russians don't want to take this farther? Do we send the Navy into the Black Sea.

As a matter of fact, we do, apparently.

Timesonline:

"Although direct military intervention is not being considered, Pentagon sources have hinted that a limited number of troops could be deployed to support what Mr Bush described as a vigorous and continuing humanitarian mission headed by the US military.

The first US air force transport aircraft arrived last night, and the navy was heading to the Black Sea – which is controlled by Russian warships – to deliver humanitarian and medical supplies direct to Georgian ports.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4524831.ece

Ports that Russia controls and is blockading.

And what about that "shaky ceasefire," anyway?

Looks like Sarkozy got his ass handed to him by Vlad the Impaler. (He should stick to hanging with sexy fashion models and leave the heavy lifting to the adults.)

The NYT:

"It was nearly 2 a.m. on Wednesday when President Nicolas Sarkozy of France announced he had accomplished what seemed virtually impossible: Persuading the leaders of Georgia and Russia to agree to a set of principles that would stop the war . . . It soon became clear that the six-point deal not only failed to slow the Russian advance, but it also allowed Russia to claim that it could push deeper into Georgia as part of so-called additional security measures it was granted in the agreement. Mr. Sarkozy, according to a senior Georgian official who witnessed the negotiations, also failed to persuade the Russians to agree to any time limit on their military action.

By mid-morning, European officials were warning of the risks of appeasing Russian aggression, while Georgian officials lamented the West’s weak leverage.

Of gripping importance to the Georgian government now, Western diplomats and Georgian officials said, is whether the agreement gave the Russians room to interpret the occupation of Gori and a zone around the city as agreed upon in the cease-fire, thus allowing them to control the main east-west road through the country, isolating the capital, Tbilisi, from the Black Sea coast and cutting off important supply routes.

In response, the United States began sending troops to Georgia to oversee aid to the capital on Wednesday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/world/europe/14document.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Get this, Sarkozy's got nothing;

"The Georgians asked that a timeline be included in the language for these loosely defined Russian peacekeeping operations, but the Georgian official said Mr. Sarkozy’s response was that without an agreement, a Russian tank assault on the capital could ensue: 'He was saying it’s a difficult situation. He said, "Their tanks are 40 kilometers from Tbilisi. This is where we are.’

A senior American official familiar with the talks also said that the Russians insisted on the fifth point about the so-called additional security measures. 'I think it was presented as, "You need to sign on to this,"’ the official said of Mr. Sarkozy’s appeal to the Georgians. 'My guess is it was presented as, "This is the best I can get."’"

Sound like Neville Chamberlin, much?

[JCMach1]

1. This is the idiocy of having treaty allies on the border of another superpower

When that superpower has a longterm interest and relationship with said country...

We should never have allowed former Warsaw Pact into NATO. Imagine the shite if Georgia HAD become a NATO member.

Of course what this is really about is OIL! Specifically Azerbaijan.

[bushmeister0]

2. You're obviously not a neocon full of your own hubris.

Since the end of the Cold War these neocon fuckers have been bent on rubbing the Russian's noses in it.

Now, though, the Russians have tons of oil and a hefty surplus of $$$ and more dangerously are nursing a powerful infiriorty complex. They want some payback and they're now in the postion of providing it.

See here what the Russians have been up to the past few years and what they're capable of.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/bushmeister0/44

The same folks who brought you Iraq, Afghanistan, Katrina, you name it, the endless littany of failures, are now on the cusp of leading us into something that could make all of that look like a frackin' tea party! Be afraid. be very, very afraid.

[JCMach1]

5. Absolutely agree...

This is the one area I agree with Pat Buchanan on... In a book a few years back, he warned of just such a situation involving the former Russian satellites.

Unfortunately, many Dems have blindly followed down the happy little NATO trail too (along with their RePig brethren)...


There is a lot of danger in this situation and the U.S. needs to push internationally for some resolution of the situation and but the hell out unilaterally concerning Georgia at this point.

What if the U.S. had used troops to keep open the airports during the Prague Summer? WWIII anyone?

[tocqueville]

3. leave stupid French bashing to freepers

some should leave it to the Republicans before spouting bullshit.

and besides Chamberlain was British

Fact is that other observers see that French diplomacy was the best that the US could do in the current situation.

Medvedev's August 12 order raised questions as to what prompted the apparent halt by the Russian army, which many
observers less than one day before were expecting to proceed to Tbilisi.

"I think that under terrible Western pressure - especially American and I think President Sarkozy has to also take credit - the Russians understood that they went too far," Alexander Rondeli, president of the Tbilisi-based Georgian Foundation for Strategic and International Studies, told RFE/RL. "This outcry from the international community stopped them."

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/JH14Ag01.html

and it's not for nothing that Condi is heading to Paris, not London or Berlin

this morning the Russians are leaving Gori
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080814/wl_afp/georgiarussiaconflict_11

shall I remind too that France is the second biggest arm supplier to Georgia after the US ?

Then the involvement of the west in Georgia can be discussed, but it's another story.

[bushmeister0]

8. Very sensitive!

I don't remember bashing the French. I don't see where you read that into what I wrote.

I think the idea I was trying to convey was that Sarkozy is a dilitant who got run over by Putin & Co.'s incredibly cynical and bloodthirsty Realpolik.

He says he got a ceasefire, yet here are the Russians, using the very language he agreed to, to consolodate their position inside Georgia proper, effectively cutting Georgia into two, closing off Tbilisi's contact to the sea. All he could tell Saakashvili was 'I think you'd better sign this thing before the Russians level your captial.' Not much of a diplomatic breakthrough.

Sort of similar to Hitler telling Chamberlin you'd better let me "protect" my people in the Sudaten lands from the Czechs or I swear I'm going to march in there by force. He tells Chamberlin, 'all I want is the Sudaten territory' and the next thing you know he's marching into Bohemia.

Rondeli says: "The Russians understood that they went too far."

Really? AP reports this "this outcry from the international community hasn't stopped a seemingly unchastened Russian FM Lavrov telling the Americans and the French they "can forget about" Georgian territorial integrity.

And AP reports "In Washington, an American official said Russia appears to be sabotaging airfields and other military infrastructure as its forces pull back. . . The official said the Russian strategy seems like a deliberate attempt to cripple the already battered Georgian military." (I've been hearing the Russians are pulling back now for a least three days, now)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_russia

Yeah, they seem real worried about Western pressure.

I'm thinking at this point the Russians figure they can just wait out the inevitable collapse of the current Georgian administration from their special "security zone," thoughtfully provided by the French, in Gori. No need to march into Tbilisi at this juncture.

[tocqueville]

11. still unfounded accusations

he two sides agreed to:

1. The non-use of force to resolve the conflict

2. An immediate halt to all military action

3. Free access to humanitarian aid

4. Georgian troops will return to their positions of August 8, before the conflict opened

Complication: These include troops with the international peacekeeping force. Russia said today that it would no longer accept a Georgian role in this force since the country’s troops had turned “traitor”.

5. Russian troops return to the lines they held before the start of the military operation. Before an international solution is worked out Russian peacekeepers are to take up an additional security role

Russia appears to be using this clause to extend its operations in Georgia. Mr Sarkozy said that these security measures would be implemented only in areas in the immediate vicinity of South Ossetia. “They are in no way additional security measures regarding all of Georgia’s territory,” he said.

6. The start of an international discussion over the future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia

Where does it stand about a "special "security zone," thoughtfully provided by the French, in Gori." ? The inuendo is only bashing, appealing to old American prejudices.

Fact is that the Russians are BREAKING the cease-fire. So blame the French ! So fucking American, could I say.

What I know of the WHwas informed about this move and agrred with it. Condi and Sarkozy are going to bring the same draft at the UN.
So it won't work. So blame the French ! it's so easy.

Your original post is full of "Munich" inuendos. For your record Munich was MOSTLY a BRITISH catastrophical mistake. But what does that matter ? Blame the French.

So Bushmeister, What is YOUR PRESIDENT DOING ? except getting drunk in Bejing ?

Aah we can always blame the French.

This is so tiresome, and hardly the Obama's spirit. At least so far.

[bushmeister0]

12. Still not getting it, are you?

I know Chamberlin was a Brit. That's neither here nor there. What I'm saying is that the West has nothing to counter the mobsters in Moscow with.

It doesn't matter what nationality your talking about here.

Sarkozy is not up to the job, period. Sorry.

This all comes down to brute force and the Russians have their boots on the West's throat, and they know it.

You keep quoting this silly agreement Sarkozy worked out with Medvedev.

"1. The non-use of force to resolve the conflict

2. An immediate halt to all military action

3. Free access to humanitarian aid

4. Georgian troops will return to their positions of August 8, before the conflict opened."

Big f'in deal! Medvedev is a puppet. Putin is the real power and he won't give Carla's "Afghan heroin" the time of day.

You cite all this all this bull but, meanwhile, the Russians are solidifying their positons, in Gori and Poti.

Gori cuts the country in half and the occupation of Poti cuts Georgia off from the rest of the world.

I keep hearing about how this thing is all over. The past three days now all I've been hearing is the Russians are "pulling back," but then - reality interupts.

From Reuters ten minutes ago:

"On Thursday, witnesses said Russian tanks had rolled through the Black Sea port of Poti, accompanying trucks with troops to the port area. A large column of Russian troops was seen in the western town of Zugdidi, not far from the second pro-Moscow separatist region of Abkhazia.

. . . French President Nicolas Sarkozy, architect of a three-day old ceasefire, said Saakashvili's signature to the six-point peace deal would 'consolidate' the halt to fighting and lead to the withdrawal of Russian troops.

But Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said: 'We can forget about talks on Georgia's territorial integrity because it's impossible to force South Ossetia and Abkhazia to agree that they can be returned into Georgia's fold by force.'"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080815/ts_nm/georgia_ossetia_dc

Instead of being so concerned about my suppossed "French bashing" you should be more concerned about BushCo setting the French up to take the fall when this whole thing falls apart.

This bunch in the WH hasn't got a clue how to deal with this problem. Putin knows this; BushCO is a spent administration, they have no political clout, and they have no military option.

Better to let the Europeans take the heat for this.

Your messiah Obama is going to be playing with the same deck of cards, if not less -- if we're all still here by the time we get rid of monkeyman -- so you better get used to the idea. It's not like Obama gets in and all of a sudden we have a new army and Putin suddenly becomes less of a manipulating, mobster thug with a resurgent military and gobs of oil money.

Remember what Putin's nuanced thoughts on black folk are, "We all know that African countries used to have a tradition of eating their own adversaries."

We're dealing with the second coming of Hitler here. Wake the F up!

As I've posted before:

"I don't suppose we should be worried about the fact that Vlad has started up his own little army of Brown shirts, called the Nashis, (rhymes with?), who storm around Russia beating up people who don't like Vlad and haranguing the British ambassador on a regular basis. Nashi means 'our thing' but has nothing to do with the Mafia. As Vlad told Romano Prodi once, 'The word Mafia was born in Italy, not Russia.'

Recently the Nashis turned their ire towards Estonia for moving a statue of a Russian 'liberator' a few feet down the road. NEWSWEEK reports that the Nashis shut down a highway out of Russia into Estonia and disrupted a press conference by the Estonian ambassador 'retreating only after her body guards sprayed them with pepper gas.' The paramilitary Nashis: 'Now claim 15,000 ranking members and 100,000 supporters,' NEWSWEEK reports. Sergei Markov, one of the main members of the Nashis says,'The idea was to create an ideology based on a total devotion to the president and his course.' Hmmm. . . Where have I heard that before?"

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/bushmeister0/44

What we need now is less Blum from the French and more DeGaul.

If we leave it to the French, this is what we'll be looking at:

[tocqueville]

4. besides the cease-fire draft

was a joint US-French endeavour. So Bushmeister why don't you start calling Sarkozy for "Bush's poodle". Some will.

[Monk06]

6. Humanitarian supplies to relieve Tbilsi? They didn't get

their electricity, water and food cut off last
week before being subjected to an unprovoked
late night artillery and rocket attack, followed
by day time bombing and sniper attacks.

How bout some NATO humanitarian aid for the people of
Tskhinvali or what's left of it.

[tocqueville]

7. This is how it went in reality

roughly translated from Le Figaro

- 8/8 Sarkozy meets briefly with Putin and tells him "It's an error from the Georgians, let's defuse this crisis". Putin answers "I can't do that"
- back in France Sarkozy contacts Angela Merkel, Silvio Berlusconi, José Luis Zapatero and Gordon Brown to achieve a common position. Hardest is to calm down the Poles.
- Bush warns Sarkozy that this could be dangerous : "You'll arrive to the Kreml when missiles are going to rain on Tblisi"
- Sarkozy negotiates withe the Russians and reminds Putin that even Jeltsin had accepted an independent Georgia. The Russians sign the draft.
- "Air France One" flies to Tbilisi : Sarkozy arrives in the middle of a huge rally. French flags can be seen in the crowd. "You want to see them ?" asks Shaakasvili ? "Not before you sign the draft" answers Sarkozy.
- Sarkozy wakes up Mvedevev in the middle of the night and tells him that the georgians have signed the draft.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2008/08/14/01003-20080814ARTFIG00020-la-longue-journee-de-mediation-de-sarkozy-.php

The most important part of the draft was the recognition of Georgia's independence.

The Russians then broke the cease fire it's true and the pressure from the US is of course the major factor, that's why the Russians haven't gone wider (so far). But the EU's pressure is far from being negligible and it was France that conveyed it. And the Russians need the EU more than we need their gas.

After all it's OUR backyard.

[bushmeister0]

9. "The most important part of the draft was the recognition of Georgia's independence."

That and 25 cents will get you a cup of coffee.

Some how I really don't get the idea Vlad & Co. care too much about the value of a signature on a piece of paper. They operate on the principle of who's got who's foot on who's throat.

"The Russians need the EU more than we need their gas."

The EU needs Russian oil and natural gas like a junkie needs his fix. All Vlad has to do is announce another "technical problem" with the flow of gas to Western Europe for a few days and they'll deliver Saaskasvili on a silver platter.

What everyone seems to be missing here is that Putin's a thug and a brute. He thinks nothing of blowing up apartment buildings in Moscow to create a justification to destroy a city of 100,000 people in Chenya. He deals with a hostage situation by blowing up the hostage takers along with the hostages. While 118 sailors slowly sufficate on a sunken submarine he barely lets it interfere with his summer vacation.

Putin is a cold blooded killer of the Stalin/Hitler mold and he's got a gun to the head of Georgia. He will pull the trigger when it suits him and he won't even blink.

[tocqueville]

10. yes and no

I share your opinion about Putin

Europe need Russian gas, yes. But on the other hand the Russians need to sell it, because they need the money. In a crisis situation we could redirect our imports.

[bushmeister0]

15. They'll just send it to the Chinese.

Nothing is totally black and white, there are always gradations in geopolitics, but Vlad basically has the Europeans under a barrel (of oil).

[SoCalDem]

13. Are they airlifting carriers & ships? The Black Sea is an inland sea, isn;t it?

:rofl:

[bushmeister0]

14. Where there's a will (and oil) there's a way.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/bushmeister0/46