Michael Moore Dares to Ask: What's So Heroic About Being Shot Down While Bombing Innocent Civilians?

[marmar]

from AlterNet:



Michael Moore Dares to Ask: What's So Heroic About Being Shot Down While Bombing Innocent Civilians?

Posted by Liliana Segura, AlterNet at 11:35 AM on August 21, 2008.

Like Iraq, Vietnam was not a noble cause. It's time we stopped letting politicians and the press perpetuate the McCain War Hero myth.



Confession: I have not yet read all six (short, illustrated, large type) chapters of Mike's Election Guide 2008, Michael Moore's, latest work of jaunty political opinion. Am I supposed to discuss it with him on "Meet the Bloggers" tomorrow? Yes. But I'm not worried. It's a breezy read, has already made me laugh out loud, and besides, I may have already found the best part in Chapter One.

The title is "Ask Mike!" and, in it, ordinary voters, old and young, pose questions about politics and current events. Some are more serious than others ("If Iran has weapons of mass destruction, we should invade, right?"), which does not make Moore's answers any more subtle. ("Excuuuuuse me? Did you say the words, 'weapons of mass destruction?' Take it back. I SAID TAKE IT BACK!") Of course, the "questions" are really satirical jabs at the media -- "When a Republican wears a little American flag lapel pin, what is he trying to say?" "If Obama can't bowl, can he govern?" -- but there's one in particular that is worth paying attention to -- especially if you happen to be a member of the press and have been utterly unwilling to take McCain's supporters and opponents alike to task for perpetuating a narrative that would be central to a McCain victory, and which has already become a dominant theme in this election: The McCain as War Hero canard.

The "question" is posted thusly:

"Why did the Vietnamese shoot down John McCain and put him in prison for five years? He seems like such a nice guy."

ANSWER: I'm guessing, in spite of his anger management issues, he is a nice guy. He has devoted his life to this country. He was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in the defense of our nation. And for that, he was tortured and then imprisoned in a North Vietnamese POW camp for nearly five-and-a-half years.

That's the set-up. It gets better. Moore proceeds, not to question, as Wesley Clark recently did to so many shrieks of criticism, whether McCain's capture really makes him qualified to be president of the United States -- the answer, any thinking person realizes, is "no" -- but whether the Vietnam war was a conflict that can really be said to have produced the breed of "American hero" McCain is so often celebrated as. ......(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/95906/michael_moore_dares_to_ask%3A_what%27s_so_heroic_about_being_shot_down_while_bombing_innocent_civilians/

[PATRICK]

1. Cavalry, planes and foot soldiers

This is too much swiftboating in kind no matter the classic rationale. Getting into the philosophical debate about the comparative honor, morality or courage of soldiers with or without the kill from afar technology is as old as the Iliad(where archers were despised for similar reasons).

McCain has definitely abuse the pushed envelope. No need to burn the envelope like the GOP did to medaled vets.

[TexasObserver]

2. Being shot down is not heroic. Living through 5 years as a POW is.

Sort of.

His life before and since suggest he was a fuck up before being shot down, and he's still a fuck up.

He and Daddy Bush both getting shot down, and Jr. going AWOL after hiding out in the Guard, all seem to be very telling of that bunch of losers.

[Voice for Peace]

3. According to some other Vietnam POW's he wasn't even tortured all that much

as he was seen as a prize, being the son of an Admiral; and he folded quickly.. known as the songbird by his captors.

[TexasObserver]

4. everyone breaks under torture

Only his fellow POWs know whether he broke faith with them, under the conditions they were living under.

Even under the best of circumstances, five years as a POW is a living hell.

Like I said, we know he was a jackass before he was a POW, and we know he's been one since.

[Voice for Peace]

18. People don't suddenly stop being jackasses just because they're captives.

The hero thing is a myth and a fantasy.

Plenty of people in our country, military and not, have suffered worse than John McCain ever did, I am quite sure... ok I am speculating. Frankly I am sick of the POW stuff... particularly after listening to the perspective of other POWs who call him a liar and hate his guts.

I haven't heard any of his fellow POW's stand up and say "yes he was a true hero, he inspired us all for those long years. Has anybody ? Serious question.

[awoke_in_2003]

48. "know whether he broke faith with them"

Exactly. Orwell, in 1984, brought up the big difference between confession and betrayal.

[Matariki]

51. Just because it's living hell - that doesn't automatically qualify him as a hero.

The heros were back at home, protesting that unjust war.

[Voice for Peace]

55. I agree it's not all that heroic to fly a plane and drop bombs.

I am so cynical about the tortured hero meme. Maybe if you drop bombs on people you deserve to be tortured.

[clixtox]

81. Thank you! And I was also a Conscientious Objector...

Fortunately, I was raised in Berkeley, CA and was aware of my options to avoid being a potential war criminal and anti-Vietnam war protests were a regular occurrence.

Ironically I am in Vietnam right now and I am living over here most of the time!

I love Vietnam!

It is so sweet here...

[ihavenobias]

6. He was primarily tortured through things like stress positions, sleep deprivation, etc. Which means

when he recently voted against a bill to stop the CIA from torturing he was voting against a bill to stop our people from torturing others in the ways he was tortured.

[ihavenobias]

7. PS---Michael Moore fans, watch Michael today on Meet The Bloggers

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3832478

[indepat]

19. But under the doctrine espousd by the Bushista cabal, McShame was not tortured was he?

:P

[magellan]

28. Nope, McSame wasn't tortured at all according to BushCo's definition of torture.

n/t

[Javaman]

8. not defending mclame in any way shape or form..

saying someone wasn't tortured that much is like saying someone is a little pregnant.

whether you are tortured for a an hour a week a month or a year, torture is torture and I think abu garib and water boarding has taught us as much.

and by the way, mclame can't raise his arms above his head because of the torture that he received that wasn't that much.

and he was only used as a political pawn after he was a captive of 2 years.

So please, using the "not tortured that much" canard, is not a very bright attack.

he has committed so many crimes as a senator that I think would be plenty enough to call the man a complete and total disgrace without even having to delve into his military career.

He never voted for any of the environmental bills presented, he voted down all benefits for veterans and foremost he was a member of the keating 5.

a little digging will also reveal that his senatorial run was funded by keating.

The man is crooked. period.

[Voice for Peace]

17. Yeah.. I don't know. The vets against McCain said his arms were broken in the plane crash

not by torture. Their claims may be untrue but what agenda do they have?

Personally, I don't know, I'm just here to spread rumors.

[AZ Criminal JD]

21. His arms were broken in the ejection

But the Vietnamese smashed his left shoulder and re-broke both of his arms during torture sessions.

[hedgehog]

64. I think that people were saying that sarcastically since he has

approved the use of the same techniques against US captives.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Voice for Peace]

47. no thanks. and I'm not sick. It's just that in some interviews w/other pow's

they said he was given preferential treatment very early on in his captivity. That's all I'm basing this on. You don't have to insult me, it doesn't serve any good purpose.

[Forrest Greene]

59. You Sound A Little Over-Eager

I remember when the "heroes" were the guys who did what they had to & then did not whine all over the county wanting their asses kissed for it.

[AZ Criminal JD]

60. And who are you referring to?

Please link to where one of our POWs "whined all over the country wanting their asses kissed for it"

[Forrest Greene]

63. Blah Blah Blah

Do it yourself.

[NewJeffCT]

22. McCain wasn't tortured at all

He was subjected to enhanced interrogation!

[L0oniX]

42. Agreed. According to Bush and Cheney's definition it wasn't torture.

[L0oniX]

41. By Bushes definition of torture it probably wasn't torture.

[cynatnite]

49. The detainees aren't tortured that much either...wish they'd quit bitching about it...

:eyes:

Just so you know that your statement is damn idiotic.

[Voice for Peace]

54. statement based solely on watching the other pow's talk about his time there.

Try to find a kinder way to make your point than "damn idiotic" -- it doesn't lead to understanding the issues any better, it just makes things more difficult between human beings, and that's where peace has to start.

[spoony]

67. "tortured that much"

Shitting on POWs, no matter what they're like now, is not a winning strategy.

[Occulus]

74. John McCain was not tortured

Or, the * admin actually is.

It is logically one or the other.

[arthritisR_US]

23. Oh ya, and right about now I`m fed up with their Oedipus dilemmas! nt

[Marr]

75. That flew out the window the instant he supported the Bush Administration's torture program.

[Postman]

5. There was no "defense of our nation" happening in Vietnam. It was about opening markets.

Every war the US engages in is because of economics.

Capitalism needs war.

[HughBeaumont]

9. MY POINT.

It's absolutely amazing that there are people that STILL don't believe this.

Got into an e-mail war with some pasty Puke idiot who works at IHRA. Read THIS gem:
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Also, it's been proven time and time again that under Republican administrations as compared to Democratic ones (this is just one of the many bullet points):

* more tax-wasting invasions occur so the Pentagon and their cronies can get rich off of Joe Sixpack at the price of his soldier son.
________________________________________________________________________________________

I mean, HELLO! Something incorrect about that?

his response?
________________________________________________________________________________________
(oh, more of the “blood for oil” rhetoric. You actually think we are at war so certain people can get rich? You are beyond help. Typical bed-wetting liberal trash).
________________________________________________________________________________________

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

I see. So if HE says it isn't so, it MUST be true, he doesn't even need to provide a legitimate link to prove his point, and I'm apparently incontinent.

Let me see if this works: I'm Mr. Rogers!

Hey, I said it, so it MUST be true. Think I'll go piss my sheets now.

I, of course, ended conversation with this unreachable and disgustingly unread clownshoe immediately. Then he e-mails me back and says "And this is how I know I've WON!" Uh . . . yyyyyeah. If "winning" means "refuting absolutely NOTHING that I said, responding to all my genuine facts with talking points, ad-hominems, logical fallacies, non-sequiturs, opinions posing as facts, facts he made up, and shitting on all my sources as 'left wing'", then I guess . . . well, no, he still didn't "win" shit.

See, if you're going to get into an argument with a DUer, your dumb ass better come prepared. Cap gun, meet AK-47.

[Postman]

11. In republicanland - hypocrisy is a virtue.

I mean how do you not notice the double standard unless you're willfully ignorant?

Amazing.

[Odin2005]

69. As far as I know the Vietnam War was because of some domino theory BS.

Vietnam was a clusterfuck we got into because we didn't understand the dynamics of Communist movements in the 3rd World, We ignorantly thought that there it was all a unified operation led by the USSR and that caused people to have a knee-jerk reaction against anti-colonialist leaders like Ho-Chi Minh, who actually asked us to force the French to get out of Indochina, it was only after we refused because of said knee-jerk paranoia that asked the Soviets and Chinese for help.


Oh, and if you think we participated in WW2 "because of economics" you are out of touch with reality.

[Marr]

76. That was only an ideological tablecloth laid over the economic reality.

You can find references to 'valuable resources in Southeast Asia' throughout the 40's and 50's in US National Security Estimates (or whatever they called them at the time-- I forget at the moment). US business wanted to control those markets and those resources. They were either going to be in the Eastern sphere of influence or the Western. Our foreign policy there was about bringing them into our sphere of influence.

The Domino Theory is just a way of dressing that old, familiar concept up in the political buzzwords of the day.

[madmom]

10. North VietNam's first ace..five plane mccain!

[eshfemme]

12. Sorry to be a bummer but Moore wasn't the first to be so courageous, it was Wes Clark

who was brave enough to fire the first shot without any backup or help at all.

[tuckessee]

13. Clark stressed the fact that McCain was killing civilians?

He indicated that Vietnam was a ignoble, unjust war? I missed that. Got link?

[eshfemme]

14. Well no. Although I think Moore's line of attack here is overly histrionic and won't work

because it is arguable that the Iraq soldiers are also killing civilians and so, it is an argument that leaves us open to attack on other fronts.

[Vincardog]

15. The question should not be are they as bad- the question should be why are we?

The point of being a moral world leader is set the example.
Is water boarding and beating people to death the example a moral nation would set?
How about raping young boys in front of their mothers?
This too has been condoned by your deserter-and-thief

[Festivito]

16. Risking self to protect country--even if country is wrong: Hero!

Why is it the soldier's duty to ferret truth from political fiction in order to decide whether or not to fight?

NO!

They are, indeed, heroes trying to fight for us because they believe it is a justified attack, they believe it is right -- and they in turn risk their lives to help.

If you are trying to say that McCain should have known better -- fine. Then say that. But, you know McCain is a bottom-of-the-class lackluster screwball who could not figure his way out of a dollar store, let alone figure what Vietnam really was while it was happening.

Usually, Michael is good at smart-alec comments. This time, not so much.

[arthritisR_US]

24. I`d rank him him in the brain dead moron category with an over inflated

ego and sense of entitlement...in short, a royal fuck up.

[Festivito]

25. You speak of McCain of course. /nt

[arthritisR_US]

26. you betcha! nt

[Disturbed]

27. McLame was a "Hero" to most Americans. Now he is an Asshole!

“Hypocrisy, my friends, is the most obvious of political sins — and the people will punish it,” John McCain

[scarletwoman]

30. Sorry, I don't see why I should consider anyone too stupid to realize they're being used, a "hero".

I refuse to have any truck with glorifying the military. Until such time as our military is designed for DEFENSE ONLY, and not to further the imperial ambitions of the Plutocracy, I don't see why I should have any respect for those who are too ignorant to understand what they're really signing on for.

Sympathy, yes, because they are so criminally uninformed as to the purpose to which their "service" will be put. But that's as far I'll go.

sw

[Festivito]

34. You won't give a little. It's the one who won't be taken...

...who cannot seem to give.

As you know people more deeply, do you lose consideration for them? Just about everyone falls into a trap of being used, even as a hero of sorts. And, so you don't consider them.

The stories of causes of wars vary plentifully and even in hindsight, contend with each other. To expect others not to be taken seems a pipe dream to me.

[scarletwoman]

37. No. The causes of war are very simple and very stark. Those who are in power have something to gain.

The ONLY people who gain from war are the Plutocrats/Ruling Class. No common peasant has ever gained from war. The commoners kill and die by the multitudes, and only the State -- and the Ruling Class of the State -- has something to gain.

War only solidifies the hold that the Ruling Class has over the People. Do you honestly believe that any common farmer or small business entrepeneur reaps any benefit? It's absurd on its face.

Human beings just want the basic means to survive and raise their children. The machinations of the Powerful have nothing to do with the simple needs of living as a human being on this planet.

sw

[Festivito]

44. Okay. Let's try the war in Bosnia.

Clinton went in with the world in support to liberate people from a mean/vicious/cruel head of state and succeeded.

Okay, some profited. But, even if that profit could have been reduced to zero, we still would have gone into it for the good of the effort to stop the genocide and free those people. It would cost us lives and tax dollars, spent for a good cause.

Want instead to try Rwanda?

[scarletwoman]

45. Feh. There were Rich interests involved, there are ALWAYS Rich interests involved.

Oil, pipelines. Control of territory = control of resources -- those are ALWAYS the reasons that war happens. There are no other reasons.

sw

[Festivito]

46. So, we should have let him continue "ethnic cleansing?"

Why? So, that no rich interests could be involved. Can we only have wars under the purest of communism where there is only one income, therefore, no rich people to "be involved?"

Silly.

You want people to die so you can rail against a few rich people "involved" with a country undergoing genocide.

Shame on you.

[Odin2005]

71. RIIIGHT, there were no outrage over Serbian atrocities, it was ALL about pipelines...

yep, sure, whatever. :eyes:

[Odin2005]

70. overly simplistic claptrap.

The notion that wars only happen because "the elite" has something to gain from this is popular because it is psychologically satisfying in it's simplicity, but it's wrong.

[Moochy]

86. Why else are people whipped into nationalistic fervor?

It takes a lot of energy to go to war, that kind of energy requires elite backing. Please name a war that was not caused by elites?

[Odin2005]

90. WW2. n/t.

[Naturyl]

29. Risking one's life in defense of others - namely one's country - is heroic.

Was the Vietnam was a just cause? NO.

Does McCain's service or his POW experience qualify him to be president? NO.

Is John McCain a good man in general? NO.

Does his military service qualify as "heroic" under the accepted definition of that term? Yes.

[scarletwoman]

31. Bullshit. If you're too ill-informed, misinformed, uniformed, to understand that all you're doing is

signing on to further imperial the ambitions of the Plutocracy, then you are just a dupe, not a fucking "hero".

sw

[Naturyl]

32. Yeah, I knew it wouldn't go over...

But I said it anyway, because that's how I am. And I'm sticking to it. The number of people on DU willing to totally trash someone's military service has always been one of its less appealing points to me.

We screamed bloody murder when they did it to Kerry, but now that the shoe is on the other foot, military service is suddenly worthless. Sorry, but I can't respect that.

And if anyone even *suggests* I'm a Freeper, I'm going to eat their lunch. Fair warning.

[scarletwoman]

35. It never occured to me to think of you as a freeper. I'm just utterly fed up with the glorification

of the military. Why should I celebrate the manipulation of human beings into being willing killers on behalf of the State? Why should I consider such people "heros"? They're not heros, they're just suckers.

I'm all for defense -- REAL defense, where someone is attacking you so you shoot back. But, dropping bombs on some faraway country that cannot possibly pose a credible threat to your own? No way.

Militarism represents a failure of the citizenry to demand that the State act on THEIR behalf, as opposed to acting on the behalf of the Ruling Class.

sw

[Festivito]

38. I've always found good DUers supporting the troops.

Saying thank you. (No matter which war.)
Raising benefits for troops.
And, gun ownership is high around here.

The ones who don't, please notice, they tend to be hit and run posters. They stereotype us in a bad light, and sometimes they actually are fifty-cent a post impostors.

Don't be quick to judge the personalities. Judge the information and its sources.

There is a lot of money at stake. Beware and revel in the good stuff.

[Pastiche423]

33. What she ^ said

Plus, I'd like one of the pro military types to explain WTF our soldiers were "protecting" during the Viet Nam War. 'Cause it sure as hell wasn't We, the People.

[scarletwoman]

39. Thanks. I'm absolutely fed up with the sanctification of the military. Fuck that shit. (nt)

[tuckessee]

77. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Thank you for having the guts to speak not just your mind but the truth.

The uber glorification of the military has reached a frightening level, not just in the US in general but even on this supposedly progressive site.

Seeing those people fawn all over the War Machine with cult-like adoration and language is really something else.

[scarletwoman]

91. "Cult-like adoration" -- that's the thing, isn't it. Americans worship violence. (nt)

[Festivito]

43. They protected us from the fear of not being protected--for one.

Maybe that's it. Could that be enough. We put the ones who did not make college material into the military. And, we expect them to think these things through better than the smart ones?

The smart ones were not even that smart. It was only once in college that some of them understood what was happening. In High School they were too busy. That summer was too much fun. Then, boom.

The soldiers went because they believed in an America of freedom, democracy and justice, and then they were stuck. They went to keep us free, protect the freedoms they thought, they were lead to believe, were under siege.

If democracy did not deliver what they needed to know, I'll not blame them. I'll blame democracy. I'll blame us. We failed to do a good enough job.

We failed.

They at least protected us from a fear of not being protected.

[Thothmes]

58. Ask LBJ and the Democratically controllled Congress

that made it all possible.

[Tanuki]

36. How was McCain "defending" our country? We weren't being attacked. n/t

[Thothmes]

57. According to LBJ we were in the Gulf of Tonkin.

That was the rational that he got the Congess to go along with to launch the genocide that was Viet Nam.

[HughMoran]

53. Says a lot about how little that term means these days

According to the commonly accepted definition, and kid who can't find a career and joins the service, then get's put into active duty overseas and is shot is a hero. Huh?

[L. Coyote]

79. Risking one's future to not kill others even if drafted to kill, that's heroic.

A great many of us had to decide between our futures and killing innocent people on the other side of the world. What we gave up is a long overdue conversation. We had to throw careers and jobs out the window to avoid the killing fields. Many had to flee their homes, their country, the country that wanted them shooting other humans. These are the heroes, not the McLame Brains who said, "Yes sir, Mr. Nixon, just show me where to drop your bombs, and send me my big fat check every month until I die."

[Thothmes]

85. He actually said

"Yes sir, Mr. Johnson, just show me where to drop your bombs". He was shot down when LBJ was the man sending them over to bomb Vietnames civilians.

[L0oniX]

40. "make the ultimate sacrifice in the defense of our nation" uhmm...

When did Vietnam attack the USA homeland? DOH

[Thothmes]

56. That is a question that was asked of LBJ and we never got an answer.

[Matariki]

50. Yay for Micheal Moore. Speaking the truth.

The people who stayed behind to protest that travesty of a war were FAR more heroic and wise than McSame can ever hope to be.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Matariki]

66. What a thoroughly despicable thing to say.

His weight has NOTHING to do with his right to an opinion, and you know it. What a bunch of flame-bait your post is.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marr]

78. Ah! A brilliant observation! Indeed he *is* fat!

How did I miss that logical inconsistency before. Moore is fat, therefore, he is wrong. Q.E.D.

Checkmate! Wow!

[clixtox]

82. This inane statement would be an embarrassment...

far any thinking person to have made.

You have lost my respect for indulging in your nonsensical argument.

Michael Moore is quite old to be considered conscript material anyway, perhaps a marginally better argument...

Still, very stupid!

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughMoran]

52. I look at McCain's service as failure

He never did anything right - between getting shot down frequently and then captured, he's as big a failure as Bush and his companies.

[Thothmes]

84. He was shot down once.

[Kitty Herder]

61. I'd rec this if I wasn't past the deadline to do so.

Hooray for Michael Moore!

It takes courage to speak an unpopular truth.

[hedgehog]

65. You know, much as I agree with Michael Moore about bombing

civilians then and now, we have to be careful that we don't allow this election to be turned into yet another referendum on the Viet Nam War.

[Odin2005]

68. Sorry, I will absolutely not attack a Vet's millitary service, even if I hate that person.

Especially when that certain individual was tortured by his captors. If anyone calls me a "war enabler" or some such BS because of that I really don't fucking care, and I don't want to be at fault of giving the GOP "evidence" that we "hate the troops" (don't be stupid, you all know how thier sound bite machine works).

[tuckessee]

73. So you wouldn't "attack" Lt. Calley's service?

By "attack" I assume you mean discuss factually & unemotionally and prehaps even form an unflattering opinion.

[provis99]

80. you just demonstrated the typical liberal "don't criticise the military" cowardice

The same Democratic liberal cowardice that led Democratic Congresspeople to vote for the Iraq war, simply to look "tough" and pro-military, rather than have the guts to vote against the war because it was based on a pack of lies.

Anybody who lives in America and won't question militarism or the Pentagon isn't a liberal, and is a damn poor Democrat to boot.

[clixtox]

83. Hear, Hear! Well said...

That about sums it up!

Those folks who go along with war crimes might very well be liberals sadly, but they certainly are not progressives or radicals, IMHO.

[Moochy]

88. Cowardice like that is trained

like a dog needs to be trained to sit.

[Forrest Greene]

89. In Any Contest, When You Play

...according to rules set by your opponent, you will lose.

[B Calm]

92. McSame was no where near as gallant and brave as GWB who

galliantly protected our southern border from a Mexican Air force invasion. . . .