NO FUCKING BAILOUT!!!! I don't WANT the idiot Dems to figure out how to "fix" this.

[scarletwoman]

Just back the fuck off and DON'T PASS ANYTHING!

This is all bullshit! This is just the 2008 version of the fucking "mushroom cloud"! Any Dem supporting this shit is DEAD to me -- I will do everything I can to see that they are defeated in their next electoral contests.

Kill this bill! NO BAILOUT, period!

sw

[ixion]

1. well said

:applause:

[avaistheone1]

125. This bailout is Naomi Klein's Disaster Capitalism on steriods

:wow:

[lostnfound]

167. I wish those who want to have an opinion about it would first read Shock Doctrine.

Whether they agree or disagree with Shock Doctrine, it would be nice if at least they could discuss it, because as far as I'm concerned, it's the working hypothesis of the day, until proven otherwise.
I agree with you.

[L0oniX]

230. Did that and I am voting anti incumbent Dem when ever I can.

[malaise]

291. 100% correct n/t

[scarletwoman]

294. I haven't read the book (I know I'll have to!) -- so, what happens next?

Do we turn into Argentina? Zimbabwe? The Soviet Union? China? 13th century Europe? Mad Max?

sw

[Dora]

2. I fully agree with you.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Beregond2]

3. Your rational approach to all this is so refreshing.

:sarcasm:

[scarletwoman]

7. Yeah, I suppose it IS irrational to resent getting fucked in the ass by the Plutocrats.

I should just bend over and enjoy it like a good peasant.

sw

[1corona4u]

22. Well, that's mighty generous of you....

I wonder if you own a home, or have money in investments, or have a savings account?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

27. Can you expand on that statement?

Putting our faith and money into the proposed super-bailout as offered up by Paulson and Chimpy guarantees us what exactly?

[1corona4u]

29. I'm sorry, was I addressing you?

I don't think so.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

63. So, you have nothing?

BTW, you posted on a public message board. Don't be surprised if someone asks you to explain your sarcastic remark.

[Raster]

88. No, that would be an "I have nothing except the same ol' regurgitated shit to spew."

[scarletwoman]

31. I own a home (paid off) and have a savings account in my local community credit union.

I've never gotten into a 401k because I've always considered it a scam from the get-go.

I don't see why I should have any sympathy for people who have invested in the stock market. The deal has always been clear: sometimes it goes up, sometimes it goes down. It's no different from gambling. Ya pays your money and ya takes your chances. I'm sorry if it didn't work out that well for some folks, but they made their choices. Why should I have to pay for something I had no part in?

sw

[1corona4u]

105. So, nothing that happens in this country has anything to do with you...

or has any affect on you....must be nice to live in a bubble all by yourself.....

It affects us all, whether or not you are willing to admit that. I don't like the bailout any more than anyone else does, but it seems to me, that people who think this will not affect them, are in complete denial. You will pay for it, even if the bailout doesn't happen the way it was purposed.

[Two Americas]

134. misleading

Of course we will all be "paying for it," bail out or no. That is an argument against the bail out, not in favor for it.

I object to this deceptive line of argument that defenders of a bail out are using - setting up straw men and claiming that your opponents are saying things that the are not saying such as "it won't effect me" or "let it fall" or "I want a glorious revolution."

Those are desperate tactics, and that usually is a tip off that the argument is petty weak. I have yet to hear an argument supporting a bail out that has not relied upon fear mongering, logical fallacies, and personal attacks.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

171. my take on this is that the markets are reacting *rationally*

The first thing Erin Burnett (MSNBC) told me this morning is that the Apocalypse is at hand...again. I hate to put her words in her mouth, but before the markets openned she said, "We're already seeing it, the markets are going to open dramatically lower today." Of course, we've been fed a steady diet of this from her and her "Forgettabout this Country First stuff! MY investments are tanking and now it's Congress' fault!!!!!" cohorts. So I grabbed my popcorn and sat waiting for the impending inferno. But at close, all I saw was the Dow had risen +100 points and my jar of Orvil Redenbacher's had emptied.

Makes me wonder, are the markets *encouraged* by the fact that Congress is, alas, painstakingly hashing out something with immense importance both domestically and internationally?

[tbyg52]

165. I have a little in a 403b and an IRA

but I'm fortunate enough to be OK without them if the bottom should drop out. (Not that I want it to.)

If I had to balance a non-catastrophic monetary loss against getting those bums out of power with their tails between their legs, no contest.

Note to any supernatural being who may be listening - I"m not saying I wouldn't like to keep the money as well..........! ;)

[Jawja]

293. Me too.

Got the same. Not much. This morning I sold enough to balance credit card debt so that if it all blows, I can pay off the credit cards. Might just do that anyway to save on the interest.

[closeupready]

184. I share your anger. We played by the free market rules, and we are being betrayed by those who set

them. In my opinion, this about protecting the investments of people like Pelosi and Reid and the other millionaires in the Senate and House.

[Two Americas]

290. that is a good point

If you personally have a fortune at stake, it would be difficult to not let that influence your vote.

[L0oniX]

232. I also have my home paid off and never invested in stocks (gambling).

If I want to gamble I'll go to Vegas. Bank FDIC CDs and bank money markets are good enough along with gold. Mutual money market funds can kiss my ass.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

25. I thought you were taking a leave of absence until the grownups returned?

Yet, here you are again with your condescending BS.

[Subdivisions]

106. .

[redqueen]

118. The "run around and scream really loud" solution seems to be quite popular here.

I'm surprised by it.

[HughMoran]

155. I know it huh? ... those "idiot" Dems

Ah, who'd support those idiots huh?

[Sebass1271]

I don't like this bailout either

But DEMS can't kill it. Republicans are killing it themselves. Let them tie their own robe. This was clearly a TRap and a catch 22 for Obama and DEMS and then later blame them for not supporting it or passing it.

I am glad Obama is standing his ground and that the Democrats have not created their own bill to counter attack this one.

Republicans are such losers.. You also have to understand the DEMS position on this. THey didn't ask for this Bill. BUSH DID!.. can you put two and two together and think the sequence of events? IT IS A TRAP!!

[moodforaday]

185. What sequence of events?

It's this: Bush asks for the bailout, Dems give it to him, like they have given him everything else he wanted - from the Patriot Act to the Iraq war to the Supreme Court nominees to telecom immunity.

Now some *Republicans* are protesting the bailout, while Dems are prepared to give it a green light. So what does two and two make to *you*?

Economics aside, since we're talking about the political games here, the ONLY way Dems could pull it off without inflicting a huge political damage on themselves is if they demand that every last Republican votes YES along with them. Every last one. Then at least the two sides cannot easily blame each other for whatever comes out of the bailout.

[Sebass1271]

4. I don't like this bailout either

But DEMS can't kill it. Republicans are killing it themselves. Let them tie their own robe. This was clearly a TRap and a catch 22 for Obama and DEMS and then later blame them for not supporting it or passing it.

I am glad Obama is standing his ground and that the Democrats have not created their own bill to counter attack this one.

Republicans are such losers.. You also have to understand the DEMS position on this. THey didn't ask for this Bill. BUSH DID!.. can you put two and two together and think the sequence of events? IT IS A TRAP!!

[Georgiadawg]

8. please tell me

I really don't know. who is the bill a trap for? Do you think the dems in congress are acting astutely?

[Sebass1271]

12. I think so.

They want to reassure the american ppl they are working on a good plan, although is the same plan but adding some oversight, homeowners get a piece of the pie and CEOs will not get the huge bonuses as the original bill.

Listen, i know this bailout is CRAPOLA and eventually we will pay for this.. however, BUSH, MCain KNOWS how to play the media and the minds of the American PPL.

[Two Americas]

81. not true

This is just not true, and is a dangerous illusion. The Republican representatives are opposed to this because their offices are flooded with email and phone calls from their constituents, and they are all angry and they are all saying "no!!!"

They are politicians, this is a representative democracy. They can't safely ignore this rebellion by their constituents.

Too many Democrats are being cowards. Too many Democrats are in denial. WTF is it? Are Democrats so traumatized that they can't do anything but cower and give in? Or do they want to become the party of the aristocracy and let the Republicans become the populist party? What is it?

[screembloodymurder]

107. I agree.

The Democrats ignore their constituents at their peril. This is a trap.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

122. I agree as well. This is a trap.

Every repuke who is fighting for his or her job, now has the opportunity to claim that they're willing to stand up against Bush.

...Am I alone when it comes to thinking that it's bogus that news of the outcome of the bailout will come over the weekend? Talk about insider trading.

[Two Americas]

141. or...

It could be something worse than that.

Yes, the Democrats are making a stupid political error, and the Republicans fortunes could be revived by this.

But I am starting to believe, after reading the comments here by defenders of the bail out, that the Democrats are actually beholden to the money interests, are actually becoming the new right wing party in the only way that matters - siding with the wealthy and powerful over the people.

Of course the tail is wagging the dog here. A minority of people here, the pro-Wall Street people, are using fear and smear tactics and aggressively trying to dominate the discussion and cow, confuse and terrorize people, and are using every misleading propaganda trick in the book. They may represent the real power in the Democratic party, pro-big business and extremely conservative, and the rest of us are being duped and lied to.

Maybe the Democrats are not politically stupid and incompetent. Maybe they are in the pocket of the big money people, maybe they really do represent Wall Street. The most dominant and aggressive people here are arguing that the party should represent Wall Street, and ridiculing and attacking all of the rest of us in a frantic anything-goes propaganda effort.

[bertman]

133. Thank You, Two Americas. You are so right.

[AntiFascist]

140. There is a division in the Republican party and it is evident here...

Bush and Paulson represent the ultra-rich, while Republicans in Congress often represent the less wealthy who don't necessarilly like it when the ultra-rich and government band together in a "Big Government" way, particularly when it doesn't work for them. The problem is that the ultra-rich have been allowed to get away with anything, and instead of being punished for bad behavior they get bailed out. This has to come to an end.

[Two Americas]

142. and in the Democratic party

We are seeing the divide in the Democratic party, as well.

The people are rebelling against rule by the wealthy. The Republican politicians are hearing that. It is a representative democracy, and they do have to stand for re-election.

Democrats are...what is it that Democrats are doing again? Let's see....the people are rebelling against tyranny of the wealthy....the people are hurting....the people are saying "no!" to the fat cats...

Could there possibly be anything that Democrats would have in response to any of that? This is the greatest opportunity the Democrats have had in a generation or more, handed to them on a silver platter. Why aren't they moving on this? Why are they defending the concept of a bail out?

Is the Democratic party as much the party of Wall Street, or more, than the Republicans are?

[AntiFascist]

154. I also feel that Democrats are intimidated....

the ultra-wealthy have plenty of leverage to make times difficult and the little guys depend on them too much. Dem congresspeople are trying to ensure that the little people get their cookie out of this.

[Two Americas]

156. yes

But why are the Democrats more intimidated then the Republicans? The Republican politicians are breaking ranks, are responding to their constituents.

"The little people get their cookie out of this?" Is that what it has come to? How could we possibly do worse than that if we started fighting back? What are we afraid of?

The ultra-wealthy are dependent on the little guys, it is not the other way around. The people have much more leverage over the wealthy than they will ever have over us.

[AntiFascist]

163. Yes, I agree that it is really vice versa...

but the leverage that the ultra-wealthy have over the little guys is real as well, and I'm sure that our trusted Congresspeople would look the other way when it gets asserted. If we were really smart about fighting back, we would threaten to strike (ala Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged", only in reverse) at just the right times and places. Really, it is a similar situation as Atlas Shrugged, but instead of fighting Marxist-style socialism we would be fighting socialism for the wealthy.

Just let them TRY to classify that as terrorist bahavior.

[Two Americas]

190. a comprehensive and flexible approach

We need a comprehensive, flexible, and above all aggressive approach. Step one - the most important step - is to de-mesmerize ourselves and others from the pervasive and corrupting influence of this idiotic "free market" thinking. The smarter, more educated and more successful people are, the more their brains have been hijacked by this crap, be they "liberal" or "progressive" or whatever.

I just heard Pelosi on the radio, fighting like a tiger for the interests of the market and the greedy predators. Her position on this is far to the right from even someone like Richard Nixon. I never thought I would live to hear the Democratic party leadership defending and promoting Reagan's trickle down bootstrap personal responsibility free market voodoo economics, but here we are.

Here is what is just stunning - NPR headlines: "Democrats pushing Republicans to support Bush's plan." WTF? In other words, the Democrats are defending the abuser and betraying the victims of the abuser - all of us - when even the abuser's own family won't support him anymore.

[L0oniX]

233. Cookie? ...more like cookie crumbs that have fallen off the dinner table of the rich

[scarletwoman]

235. No cookie for us! The Dems have already caved on the provision that would have allowed bankruptcy

judges set new mortgage terms. We've been thrown under the bus.

sw

[ProSense]

5. Bernie Sanders

on the bailout

[bread_and_roses]

197. exactly. and I've read of only one Dem talking about taxing the ultra wealthy

and corporations (other than Sanders - who's not actually a Dem, of course). I cannot believe what I'm hearing out of the rest, or, I can, but it is still shocking. It's a sad day when Newt Gingrich on NPR sounds more progressive and populist than the Dems - he's a liar, of course, and playing the tune he knows will resonate with the public while the Rs go into "negotiation" and demand LOWER taxes for the rich and more DE-regulation. But most people won't know that. They'll hear the rhetoric, and believe it.

If nothing else, I cannot believe the Ds are being so stupid.

[Naturyl]

200. I love it. Whatever Bernie says GOES as far as I'm concerned.

I hate this bailout, but if it could be paid for with a big fat mammoth tax on the rich, bail away!

[ColbertWatcher]

6. No blank checks!

[TXDemGal]

9. What she said!

:yourock: :applause: :yourock: :applause:

[Sebass1271]

10. I know these are emotional times

and we should not blame democrats on this. They are in a very bad position with this election so near where they are hoping Obama wins to nring order to congress.

This so clearly a trap. I am sure Rove planned all this out. He called BUSH and McCain and Paulson. They probably thought Obama was going to cave in on the Debates and thought DEMS were going to draft their own legislation, if it didn't pass, they would blame the financial crisis on DEMS. Now, I see DEMS working at this TIME and trying to pass some decent shit and republicans are NOT THERE!!.

Let them be the responsible for this chaos. THey were the masterminds behind.

Like Sara Palin said to Katic Couric

"back at ya"

[scarletwoman]

24. The Dems are NOT in a bad position!

My local news show had a snippet with one of our REPUBLICAN Representatives. He said he had recieved over ONE THOUSAND emails and phone messages AGAINST the bailout, and only TEN messages in support of it.

If the Dems vote for this they are going AGAINST the wishes of the MAJORITY OF THEIR CONSTITUENTS! What the hell is the "downside" in opposing this?

People are PISSED OFF about this. The ONLY way the Dems can look good is if they OPPOSE this!

If they push this through, all those pissed off people are going to be convinced that only the Republicans are looking out for them!

Dems need to BACK OFF! NO BAILOUT!!!!

sw

[tomp]

126. the people have been pissed off about many things...

...that both dems and repubs have ignored.

[Two Americas]

80. they are in a very powerful position

The Democratic party is in the strongest position imaginable, stronger than any position they have had in decades.

Weakness is a state of mind.

We must snap out of it.

Weak is as weak does.

We must break the habit of cringing and cowering, of crawling and begging.

Fight, people. Fight. For the love of God fight as though your lives depended upon it. Do not keep rolling over.

[BzaDem]

11. You don't know what you are talking about.

If you actually knew of the economic consequences of what you were saying, you would not wish that on anyone. No real democrat who knew about what frozen credit markets mean for the country would propose taking no action.

[scarletwoman]

17. WTF are YOU talking about? The fucking "economic consequences" are ALREADY upon us.

The only people this bailout is protecting are the ones who fucked us all over in the first place.

Do you think this bailout is going to bring jobs back? Do you think this bailout is going to raise wages so people can actually afford to pay for housing and food and gas?

Hell NO it won't! The criminals have ALREADY ripped us off big time. We ARE going to suffer, because we've been FUCKING RAPED FOR THREE FUCKING DECADES!

The very LEAST we can do is to NOT fucking help them with their fucking getaway! That's all this bailout is about -- helping the criminals who ripped us off to escape the consequences. The consequences are STILL going to fall onto all of US, no matter what happens.

Let the Plutocrats fall, they've ALREADY screwed us over six ways to Sunday. Why should we cushion their fucking greedy asses? Taking on another $700 fucking BILLION in debt is only going to screw US harder.

sw

[BzaDem]

30. You are simply part of an angry mob that has no idea what its talking about.

No, the bailout is going to bring jobs back necessarily. But it will prevent unemployment from increasing to 1.5-2 times what it is now, due to the inability of companies to obtain credit. It will prevent a situation from happening where you can't cash your paycheck issued from a different bank. It will prevent the collapse of anything that requires credit.

We really have 2 choices:

A. Don't pass any form of bailout, and collapse into a great depression or worse. This will hurt everyone in ways you probably can't imagine. Main street and wall street.
B. Pass some sort of bailout, saving the credit markets and avoiding a complete collapse. This will not hurt wall street as much as option A, and of course this will also not hurt main street as much as option A.

You choose option A because you don't understand or believe option B, which is typical angry mob behavior. It is very easy to understand "SCREW EM! LET THEM COLLAPSE. IT IS US VS. THEM, AND I AM ANGRY. AANNGGRRYY. I WILL CHOOSE THE OPTION THAT WILL PUNISH THEM THE MOST, REGARDLESS OF THE CONSEQUENCES." It is not unlike the debate over the death penalty, where right-wingers have a similar zeal for executions. Yes, understanding option B requires slightly more brainpower (or at least a willingness to use it), but I would have thought that people on DU would not have objected to this.

If you have any economic evidence that indicates that the consequences above will still happen under option B in a similar order of magnitude, or that they won't happen under option A, do tell. But if you just have more rhetoric without any evidence to back it up, save it.

[scarletwoman]

32. I'm saying we're being manipulated, the Bushies are playing the FEAR card as usual.

And, as usual, the fucking Dems are falling for it.

But here, allow me to let Allen Meltzer (professor of political economy and public policy at Carnegie Mellon University and a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute) speak for me:

This is from the PBS NewsHour on Tuesday, September 23 -- link: : http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/july-dec08/bailouttalk_09-23.html

ALLAN MELTZER: It's a terrible idea. It's undemocratic. It's bad economic policy, and it's bad social policy. And it has a very little chance of solving the problem in a meaningful way.

I've listened to governments tell me for 40 years that there was a crisis and the world was going to fall apart if we didn't do this or that. But there have been a few cases where they weren't able to do that.

One was the commercial paper crisis in 1970. There have been several others. The world did not fall apart. Last week, we had Lehman Brothers went into bankruptcy. Within three days, most of the assets were sold.

We had AIG turn down three offers to buy the company because they thought they would get a better deal from the government. It turned out they didn't get the better deal from the government. Now the stockholders suddenly woke up and said -- the major stockholders said, "We'd like to buy the company."

Well, that's what I think we need to do. We need to get the government's hand out of this, and let's see whether we can't get a market solution.

The market people caused this problem. They ought to be the ones that pay the cost of having it cleaned up.

I don't want to join a debate about different ways of picking the public's pocket. I think, if they're going to do something -- and I don't think that we really need to do anything. I've heard these stories over and over for 40 years. You know, maybe there will be a crisis.

But despite all the talk, Main Street is not doing so badly. And the fact is that they've been predicting disaster since January. It hasn't happened.

And if they're going to do something, then what they ought to do is make loans, which the financial institutions have to repay with interest. And if you think -- that's an idea which the Chileans have used in a bigger crisis than this for them in 1982, and it worked for them.

People paid back the loans. They weren't allowed to pay dividends until they repaid the loans. They weren't allowed to take bonuses until they repaid the loans. I think that's the way -- if we're going to do this, then that's the way we should do it.

I don't want to get into the distribution of income arguments that are so prevalent in the Congress. I'm against this mainly because it seems to me this is private interest activity at the expense of the public interest.

I mean, Mr. Paulson can talk about all the things that are going to be good for Main Street, but the fact is that Main Street is going to incur a huge debt and a big loss, for the reason that Paul Krugman just mentioned, because most of these assets are not worth much.

Well, let's do loans, which they have to repay with interest, and let's see what happens.

I know that many people think it can't happen. But, look, today, Morgan Stanley sold 20 percent of its company to a Japanese bank. There's lots of money out there, liquidity. The Chinese have it. Others have it. They've come in.

If the government steps aside and says, "Solve this problem," then we'll see more of that activity and people will begin to do it.

Merrill Lynch sold itself. It sold out some of its assets. It got 22 cents on the dollar. It's correct to say nobody knows how to value these things, and they won't know how to value them until the housing price reaches a bottom or is expected to reach a bottom, because you can't value the mortgages until you know what the underlying asset, which is the house, is worth. And nobody knows that."

(one of the other panelists, EUGENE LUDWIG: "But we must move with haste and deliberate effort here to get this crisis solved and get it behind us. It's in the interests of the American people, and we'll all be better for it.

The longer we let this go, the more it's going to cost the American people, the more it's going to affect people's jobs, people's homes. We just simply can't tolerate waiting.")

ALLAN MELTZER: "I don't believe that for a minute. I don't believe that for a minute. I mean, we've been hearing that scare talk for a long time. And there's just nothing to back it up.

What happens is companies are being sold, as Morgan Stanley was sold. Other companies, like Lehman Brothers, they were sold. If the government doesn't do this, there will be other people in there buying up these assets.

The alternative, if we're going to do something, it is to put them in the responsible position of borrowing the money and having to pay it back with interest. That's how we could go a long way to protect the interests of taxpayers.

Well, you know, I just don't believe it. It may be true. It may turn out to be true this time. I've heard it now for 40 years over and over again.

Whenever they want to make a grab of this kind and bail out their friends, that's what they tell us. Well, let's try, and test it, and see whether it really is that bad.

In a democratic country, we discuss these things thoroughly. We air the problems. We listen to various points of view. And we take our time about making decisions of this magnitude.

May I just say one last thing? No one, no one has said this will solve the problem. No one has said it will solve the major problem in housing and finance.

We are being stampeded into this con the same way we were stampeded into the Iraq invasion. This is another "MUSHROOM CLOUD". This is BULLSHIT!

sw

[BzaDem]

38. Allan Meltzer is a neoconservative hoover-free-market hack, as is the American Enterprise Institute

There will of course be people who subscribe to Hoover's views (liquidate everything, let the free market take care of everything). But there is a reason Roosevelt won the election. If you look up Meltzer on the Internet, you will find that he is hardly the person you want to be quoting right now.

The neoconservatives and free-market ideologues do not want this bailout. They do not want the government to touch the free markets. They want to deregulate further. They can't do that if we set a precedent by having the most massive government intervention in history. While it may look on its face that these Hoover free-market-types are populist (since they don't want to bail out wall street), that is absolutely not their reasoning. They know that the wall street of today must be a temporary casualty of continuing deregulation. If they could get what they wanted, they would always help the rich. They would have no problem having profit be private and losses be socialized. But they know that once it is made clear that government intervention and regulation is helpful to the economy, it will be used against the rich to lower their profits.

THAT is why they are so against this bailout. Because this bailout will show the benefits of government intervention, which horrifies them and will destroy their plan of implementing a laissez-faire economy that only benefits the rich.

[scarletwoman]

41. I see absolutely no reason not to subscribe to the philosophy of

"Those that live by the sword shall die by the sword".

Make the "free market" proponents prove that they're correct -- NO government intervention!

I invoke the "Prime Directive" on this situation.

sw

[BzaDem]

42. You are basically taking the position that because executives started the fire, we won't put it out

even if it engulfs all of Main street in the process. Punishment above reason and rationality. I'm glad that if an arsonist started a fire and was trapped inside a building with 1000 people, the police would put out the fire and save everyone (and not let the building burn to the ground for the sake of punishing the arsonist).

Thank you scheming daemons for the analogy.

[scarletwoman]

50. Oh, spare me the idiotic analogies. This is a scam, a con, a giant rip-off.

Why the hell would any sane person who's lived through the past 8 years of the bush* maladministration believe them when they cry "wolf"?

You can put off paying the piper all you want, but you'll STILL have to pay the piper.

You're arguing for propping up a thoroughly rotten system just a little longer. You're arguing for putting an even BIGGER burden on the little guys just to keep the big guys in the same business of fucking us over that they've been at for decades.

We, the People are being bled dry no matter what. It's time to call in the chips and end the game. Then maybe we can build something that works better.

We prop this bullshit system up for awhile longer, at a cost that will be felt by generations into the future -- or we let it collapse of its own corrupt weight now and start working on a more sustainable economic future for our children and our children's children.

Bailing out Wall Street is like a guy with a Hummer who starts robbing convenience stores so he can keep buying all the gas he needs to keep it running.

Sorry. Time to ditch the Hummer, asshole.

sw

[newtothegame]

55. Sorry, I agree with ZLT...

It's time to stop being so paranoid about the "politics" of this and look at what it's going to do to our LIVES. We can't make this about "punishing" anyone because we'll end up punishing OURSELVES. I agree, NO $700 BILLION BAILOUT. But we have to do SOMETHING. And walking away like spoiled brats because we want to "get them last" is ridiculous.

[scarletwoman]

58. Whatever. I don't think we'll be any worse off if we do nothing. As I said, we've already

been royally screwed. I'd rather suffer more now than leave my kids with their own futures totally fucked.

And I see no reason to trust the WMD/MUSHROOM CLOUD assholes who are ginning up all this panic. Why would ANYONE trust them?

sw

[Two Americas]

78. we will be free

We will be free, and not slaves to Wall Street and the free market. We will have a chance to fight back, to defend ourselves, to rebuild and create a future for our children and grandchildren.

The alternative is to hand the country once and for all over to the upper class, and condemn the American people to servitude and poverty - permanently, or at least for generations.

This is the last battle, the last chance.

[undergroundpanther]

222. Funny how

People who think they are free but never were are so damn terrified when they find real freedom is right in front of them.

The cage door is open people,we can abandon this huge ponzi scheme and silence the hounds of commerce..If we just refuse to feed the pigs what they want.

We do not have to live as wall street demands we live anymore.

Two Americas is right.

Do you want real freedom or just to continue to be an expendable market/wage slave? Do you just want to know your place,on your knees in front of the boss man's ass hoping for pennies but always getting shit... and do you like to suffer being pissed on from above and make believe really hard you are free?
Let this damn market lie die.

[Two Americas]

247. the cage door is open...

Yes.

Funny how people will say "easy for you people to say these things. You don't care. You have nothing to lose." Yet we don't dare say to them "you are saying what you say because you care, because you have something to gain, or think you do."

[screembloodymurder]

113. Why the hell would any sane person who's lived through the past 8 years

believe Bush when he cries "wolf"? Cause they have no plan of their own. The Democrats go along to get along and it has to stop.
Think about it. They are now on Bush's side against his own party. Are they crazy?

[Two Americas]

77. nonsense

Absolute nonsense.

You don't give the arsonists more gasoline.

The fire was started by Wall Street, and it is going to hurt main street - hell main street is already devastated...

Let me say that again -

Main street is already destroyed.

The people who now say give us more money or else are the people who destroyed main street.

This is a scam, and I cannot believe that people here are defending and promoting this, and using fear and misdirection and outright lying to do it.

If there are people here defending this because they are confident that they personally are well enough positioned in the market to survive whatever comes then shame on them. Shame on them for doing the same thing to poor and innocent people here that the right wingers have been doing. Shame.

[alcibiades_mystery]

91. If you think Main Street is destroyed now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7miRCLeFSJo

[Two Americas]

138. extortion

"Give the fat cats what they want, or they will really hurt you."

"Quit your crying, or we will give you something to really cry about."

Years of caving in to the big money interests is what caused the problems we have. It can never be a solution. Never.

[bread_and_roses]

201. EXACTLY. People are already suffering, but you'd never know it from some posters here

who seem to say "people will suffer" as if everyone is just fine now. Talk to the millions and millions of uninsured, the insured who've been screwed by their providers, the far-higher-than-official-already numbers of unemployed, the workers who have not seen a real raise in what-three decades? The people on Food Stamps who can't afford to eat - the people NOT on food stamps who can't afford to eat, the seniors who can't afford their drugs even with Medicare because we've taken far better care of pharmacuetical profits than we have of them, the kids whose schools are a mess - I could go on and on.

I hate to believe that what these "people will suffer" posters are really worried about is that they will be the ones suffering now, but it is hard not to, given the lack of mention of the havoc that our Corporate Masters and the few they trickle a few of the goodies on have done.

[Bluenorthwest]

229. Hey the fire inspectors and police

Would put out the fire, but they would also be seeking to arrest and convict the arsonist, they would not be trying to make sure the arsonist has enough gasoline and matches for the next outing.
Thus far, those promoting this theft with words of utter panic and fear pretend that the one thing we can NOT do is punish the arsonist. I say we can do both, and I also say that unless we put the arsonists behind bars, fighting this fire is rather a moot point, as there will be futher flames around the corner as long as the criminals go free.
Why do you see it as one or the other? It is not 'put out the fire OR punish the arsonist' and you know that. We do not have to let the criminals run free to put out the fire, and we certainly don't have to pay the arsonists for setting the freaking fire.

[Two Americas]

252. because it is

I agree with you that need not be one or the other, but in the real world it is. Not because of anything any of us are saying and doing, but because the other side will not compromise. We have been reasonable, we have been accommodating, we have made sacrifices, we have taken them at their word, we have tried to reach a compromise. We have been repaid with an all out assault.

[L0oniX]

238. Right on. Just today I got another low interest loan offer for $10000 from Citi..

and I keep getting them from credit card companies too. Hell the last card I got was a $10000 limit card just 3 months ago. If it's so bad out there why are they trying to get me to take out credit? Do they have money to loan? I think so.

We should have learned the 7 1/2 year lesson about Bush and his crime syndicate. EVERY THING THAT BUSH DOES OR SAYS IS 100% BULL SHIT AND THIS BAIL OUT IS JUST MORE OF THE SAME!

[Naturalist]

35. You are simply part of a mindless horde that has money invested

in the market.

[BzaDem]

39. Nope. Not one penny in the market. This is going to extend WELL beyond the stock market.

[Naturalist]

46. Good for you

do you have land to grown stuff on?

[Two Americas]

82. either way

Hard times are coming - hell they are here for most people - bail out or no. The bail out can only make things much, much worse and for a much longer time.

"Give us what we want or you will be hurt."

At some point you stand up to bullies, or you become a slave.

[alcibiades_mystery]

92. It's over for these people...they can't be reasoned with

They want to play out some romantic psychodrama of standing up to the bullies or something. That most of them will be unemployed and getting their food from food pantries in a year is of no consequences to them, as long as they "stick it to the man."

The lunatics are running the asylum right now. We're gonna have to eat shit with them, but be assured that the silliness you see on this thread is pandemic, so we will definitely be eating shit.

[Two Americas]

131. that explains a lot

No wonder Democrats won't stand up to the right wing.

That would be "playing out some romantic psychodrama of standing up to the bullies or something?"

How condescending. How arrogant and contemptuous. How demeaning and insulting.

That phrase will echo down through time. Unbelievable, truly unbelievable.

[alcibiades_mystery]

137. "That phrase will echo down through time"

:rofl:

Oh, Lord, somebody get this guy a self-consciousness mirror.

[riverdeep]

61. I don't know if it's that clear cut.

Here's two stories from Sept 25th and the 26th:

"Can bailout plan work?" -article from Economist via Seattle PI

Paulson's plan is not perfect. But it is good enough and it is the plan on offer. The prospect of its failure sent credit markets once again veering towards the abyss. Congress should pass it -- and soon.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/380576_econonline26.html


"Away from Wall Street, Economists Question Basis of Paulson's Plan" -from WaPo

But almost 200 academic economists -- who aren't paid by the institutions that could directly benefit from the plan but who also may not have recent practical experience in the markets -- have signed a petition organized by a University of Chicago professor objecting to the plan on the grounds that it could create perverse incentives, that it is too vague and that its long-run effects are unclear.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/25/AR2008092504531.html


Two completely different opinions. This doesn't seem to be like an astronomer going up against the flat earth society.

[Greyhound]

68. Why are you guys all so determined to paint this as some sort of apocalypse?

The OP is rightly upset and a little freaked out, but you appear to be just as freaked out and terrified into this binary mindset that is being pushed on us.

There are many different approaches to addressing this problem, what is being proposed now is among the worst, and the Democratic "alternative" is the same pile of shit with a doily on it.

This has happened before (although the scale of this is a monument to rampant incompetence), and We The People have, for the first time in a long time, an opportunity to call the shots and drive a deal that will help us for once.

Stop giving in to the fear and think for a minute.

[CrispyQ]

102. Check out this DU poll.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4095186

I voted 'not sure' cuz I don't have the economic knowledge to know what's the best course of action. Yes, I'm pissed that taxpayer dollars are being spent to bail out the very assholes who got us into this mess, & yes, I fear that dems may be played by this administration, but I can also see your point about credit & that if we let a collapse happen & can no longer conduct business, it will hurt Main St. as much or more than Wall St. My grandmother used to site that old saying, "cut off your nose to spite your face." It took me many years before I understood what that meant, but I wonder if many DUers are not reacting exactly that way.

Thank you for a post that provides more than an emotional rant.

[TBF]

135. How is your portfolio doing? Clearly that is your greatest concern...

[undergroundpanther]

220. One word

Monetization.

If you do support that fucking bailout for rich criminal pigs, be prepared to haul a wheelbarrow of money to the grocery store to buy 3 items.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Hmm...no they are not

or has your ATM card been refused all over town

Have you taken things to market and people could not buy them due to lack of credit?

No clue...really

[scarletwoman]

53. So you haven't noticed how wages have stagnated for years now?

Haven't noticed how people working 2 or 3 jobs still can't make ends meet? You haven't noticed how the number of people using food banks has increased precipitously in the past decade? The number of homeless families going up? The number of people without health insurance going up?

You haven't noticed how many manufacturing jobs have been lost? How many workers have found themselves out of a job due to outsourcing?

You haven't noticed how much harder it's become to afford a college education? How many state budgets have gone into the red so services and infrastructure maintenance have been drastically cut?

We've been in an all out Class War for decades now, and the plutocrats have been winning -- or didn't you notice?

Do you know what will happen if this bailout goes through? The Fed will print a whole bunch more dollars in order to pay for it, which will send inflation through the roof.

Investment tip: buy stock in wheelbarrows. Because that's what you'll need to haul all your worthless dollars around in when you go to the grocery store.

sw

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. I have...and things will get far worst

in fact...Ｉ　ＧＵＡＲＡＮＴＥＥ　ｔｈａｔ　ｅｖｅｎ　ｉｆ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｗｏｒｋｓ　ｙｏｕ；ｌｌ　ｓｅｅ　ｈａｒｄ　ｙｅａｒｓ　ａｈｅａｄ

[scarletwoman]

60. That being the case, why the hell should we make things easier for the assholes who made this mess?

Economic upheaval is our inescapable future no matter what. So why make it temporarily easier for Wall Street?

sw

[Two Americas]

83. either way there will be hard times

The hard times are here and will get worse either way.

It will be much worse - for most of us, some here may be nicely positioned - with the bail out than without it.

There is no quick and easy way out of this. The question is this - do we fight through it, do we stand on our feet or do we surrender to the fat cats and become peasants in a banana republic?

[Doodler71]

96. WaMu failed last night, more will fail and the FDIC insurance

will be depleted.

Grocery stores stock shelves by buying merchandise on credit. Most companies pay salary on credit until revenues can catch up. Credit is used for cash flow. If credit stops, cash flow stops. When cash flow stops... everything stops. Then people can't pay the mortgages or other loans back and more banks fail. Then when the banks fail in record number one after another the FDIC insurance will cover your deposites until the FDIC reserves run out and there isn't anymore. And if you happen to be the next person in line and the money is gone... it's gone.

If you need medicine for your health. If your kids need medicine and it's no longer available tell me things can't get worse. They can get a lot worse.

I hate the bailout to the tune of some random out of the hat number $700 billion. I think these assholes need to sit down and figure this out, but we also need some grown ups to explain this in real terms. Bigger than the credit crisis is the credibility crisis in this country. Someone with credibility needs to explain the whole situation and why everyone on the Hill is wetting themselves over it. They need to look and exhaust the possibilities and explain clearly the consequences of each choice... to you and me. No flipping spin.. no hide the ball.

The time problem is that there is only so long before the dominos start to go.

[whopis01]

144. No they are not. Not by a long shot. This is barely of taste of what is to come. n/t

[BooScout]

219. Good lord........

You have not a single clue of what you are talking about. If you think there's a lot of jobs gone now.....how many do you think would be gone if we let the banking system totally fail? ........because that's what would happen if we don't do something to restore confidence at this point. If it fails than not just the thousands of jobs already gone would be lost, but millions would be.....most likely tens of millions all across the world. Do you really want a Depression? Because whether you like it or not we are on the brink of one.........and a Depression is much, much worse than a recession. Millions out of work. Millions homeless. People's private retirement plans wiped out completely........and forget about them working in their old age. There won't be any jobs for them to do.

And while we're at it......who are we blaming for all this? Do you blame the subprime mortgage brokers that began lending to riskier and riskier people? Do you blame the people that took advantage of the easier credit by taking out 100%+ mortgages at higher rates or adjustable rates and planned on refinancing that mortgage at a better rate when it started an upward adjustment? ...and then found that credit had tightened and they couldn't? Or the millions of people that defaulted on these mortgages? It's not like we weren't warned and warned that the housing bubble was going to burst and when it did it would be bad.

Or do we blame the companies that the original mortgage lenders sold the loans to in order to disperse their risk (ie the AIGs, the Merrill Lynches, etc.) .....or do we blame Bush for starting the Iraq War which caused oil prices to rise world wide which caused other commodities to rise? Which caused people to stop buying the gas guzzlers out of Detroit, which hurt further an already weak auto industry? All of which cause consumer confidence to falter, which played a roll in the housing bubble burst....

Or do we blame the government for repealing the Glass-Steagall Act? Or for marching steadily foward deregulating the various industries to 'allow for increased competition'? Reagan started that trend and we took the ball and ran with it.

Or do we blame the Fed for being reactionary to the various crises rather than proactive?

Do we blame the short sellers?

I think there's more than enough blame to go around..........and everyone can have a slice of it all.

[stillcool]

21. you know I am pretty ignorant..

about all this, but can plainly see how the market reacted to the whisper of a plan for a bailout. I can certainly understand the psychological benefit of 'something' being done. I think they most certainly could have taken that bill and massaged the hell out of it and put out something that would quell the 'crisis'. I wonder how much of this is even in the hands of the U.S. now?

[Two Americas]

143. this is just not true

The economic consequences are already happening, will keep happening, caused by Wall Street.

It is not the fault of those who are saying that we need to start fighting back against Wall Street.

You are threatening and frightening people.

Hard times are coming bail out or no. No one is wishing that on anyone, except you, because you are arguing for more of the same. Giving Wall Street power and money caused the problem, and that can never be part of any solution. Never.

Why on earth would anyone argue that we should give those who caused the problem more power and more resources and more good faith and more trust? This boggles the mind.

The difference is this - as Democrats, do we side with the people, or do we side with those who have been preying on the people? Or another way to put it - are we on the political left, or the political right?

[desktop]

13. Agree 100% but apparently the democrats are going for a bailout

This is one area I agree with those conservative republicans who want no bailout. Unfortunately it looks like McCain is teaming up with these republicans for political reasons. Obama should be careful here. Everyone can see McCain is a total phony who will do or say anything to get elected, but the majority of Americans want no bailout of any kind and McCain smells political opportunity here.

[Sebass1271]

15. I TOTALLY AGREE

with you. It is a Trap for DEMS and for Obama. and they should be VERY CAREFUL. They should throw this bill back at the president and say to them with the press,

"mr. president, we wanted to help the american ppl like you wanted, but the REPUBLICANS in your Party has bailout"

So, has John McCAin.

[Riverman]

14. NO, NO, NO! No Bailout, No Rescue AT All, Pelosi, Reed

stop talking about a compromise. Walk away! End this Congressional session. Go Home. If any Demoncrat conintues to show ANY support for the Bush/Cheney/Paulson/Bernanke, etc Bullshit, you will have signed your political death warrant. Schumer are you listening! Get the Hell out of there Now! Do not commit one penny of our tax revenue for this shame! Let the consequences follow. There is no need for a government intervention Nancy Pelosi! Got It, no intervention!

[Sebass1271]

16. this is exactly what Bernie Frank should

have done, have the press conference like he did tonight and said, we are going home. The republicans left. They dont' want to help. It is not our bill.

Just like Dodd did. He said, i am going home. he knows is A RAT!!

[Dover]

kill bill

it has a certain ring...

[Dover]

18. kill bill

it has a certain ring...

[Kansas Wyatt]

19. REPUBLICANS screwed it all up, so let them figure out how to fix it.

Democrats should not play the bad cop just right before the election, just so republicans can show everyone how they are fighting for Main Street, even though they have been for Wall Street all along the way to this "crisis."

If things get worse, then Democrats need to keep repeating, 'This is what you get when you vote for republicans to control anything.'

[doc03]

20. Excuse me Washington Mutual just went under

the largest bank failure in the history of the world. If there is no bail-out I hope you have a bunch of gold stashed away or you like selling apples on the street corner.

[Naturalist]

36. Like 700 billion will make a difference

NOT!

[scarletwoman]

40. We are fucked no matter what. The fucking is already a done deal.

Your economic prospects are NOT going to be improved by a bailout, you will still be fucked. When Paulson talks about a "clean" bill, he means a clean getaway for the criminals that have been ripping all of us off.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Ah now I get it.... you realize that Paulson's three page plan is dead

Good.

Damn it this time I cannot blame the media either...they HAVE covered it

[femrap]

23. let me k and r this!

I'm with you...why give dumb ass, greedy, white boys more money that they'll just shove in their pockets.

For Goddess's sake...banking isn't rocket science. You loan money out at a higher rate than what you pay on your savings accounts.

I hope these crooks have to live in one bedroom apartments.

[soulcore]

100. "I hope these crooks have to live in one bedroom apartments."

Welcome to my world.

NO CORPORATE WELFARE FOR WALL STREET CRIMINALS!

[femrap]

104. My world, as well!

And with NO dishwasher!!! Actually I'd prefer they be dressed in orange and working in the prison's laundry facilities, but these rich white dudes never seem to get their comeuppance.

Did you hear about the CEO in India who was bludgeoned to death by the workers he had fired???

[bobbolink]

166. Not good enough. I hope they have to live in their cars, like I do.

Or even better, on a park bench.

I still doubt they would recover their humanity.

[lukasahero]

186. As if...

It's stunning to me that people here think the truly rich will be fucked without a bailout. They won't be - their money isn't even in the stock market the way people think it is. The truly rich can bet against the dollar and get even richer when it fails.

Think about it - since when have the Republicans given a flying fig about "mainstreet"? Why do you vote Democratic if you don't have some confidence Obama and the Dems know what the fuck they're doing?

[Two Americas]

216. blind faith

In a representative democracy we vote for politicians because of what they do, we don't support whatever they do because we vote for them.

You ask why someone would vote Democratic if they don't have some confidence in them. Right.

How do we get confidence in them if we can't question what they do, can't speak our thoughts? The thing that we most need to have confidence about is that they will listen to us. Yet you say be quiet and trust them.

What you are asking us to do is the problem. Make a personal selection of one of the two candidates, as though they were items of merchandise chosen off the shelf, pledge undying loyalty no matter what, and then attack any and all who say anything after that.

Your formula is killing democracy.

[lukasahero]

241. Knock it off - I never told anyone to shut up

That said, I DO trust my representatives to gather the facts I am not privy to and make the best decisions they can with all the information they have available - that's why I vote for them. That's why I don't vote for the Republicans, nor do I side with them on such an important issue. I don't trust them - they got us into this mess by constantly siding with and rewarding their CEO friends.

I am, however, a little tired of hearing people here threaten riots over the decisions of the Democrats one would think they voted in to represent them while siding with the Republicans. Obama and crew have been measured in their responses to this primarily making sure that there are safeguards in place in this bill to protect "Main Street" and not just bail out Wall Street.

Rants like this from people who think we're all going down together in the same boat are ill-informed. The fact is the truly rich will hardly feel the pinch - they won't be living out of their cars - that's ridiculous. The Democrats are trying to find a way to salvage our economy AND protect the average American at the same time. The idea that if the economy fails, the greedy bastards that brought us to this will suffer the same fate as us is ludicrous.

[Two Americas]

246. OK

I will knock it off. Because as you say no one is telling anyone to knock it off. What was I thinking?

[scarletwoman]

250. ...

:rofl:

:loveya:
sw

[lukasahero]

259. Whatever

:eyes:

[anigbrowl]

26. Yes, we should wait. When Wall Street comes crawling to the public and begs, then will be the time.

I think we can call their bluff. right now they are just hurting. When they are actively panicking, then we could talk.

I am well aware that WaMu just went down. It's been sick for months anyway, and JP Morgan was able to buy its deposits right away. I think we can let this go on for a bit longer. Like, a few weeks or even until after the election.

[VenusRising]

28. For you...

This is what needs to be prevented.

[scarletwoman]

34. Great 'toon! Exactly right on! Thank you! nt

[bobbolink]

168. That is WONDERFUL! A good picture really is better than a thousand words!

I have so much respect for cartoonists who can capture stuff like this..... they provide a very important service.

Much thanks for posting this!

[2Design]

33. my thoughts exactly n/t

[flamingdem]

37. I say kick 'em 50 BILL and see what they spend it on..

.. Got to see what the REAL priorities are about ..

Then after O is elected they can come 'round and plead for another 50 BILL

[NoUsername]

43. Doesn't look like the bailout bill wil fix things regardless.

Looks more and more like just a big moneygrab to me. Check out the economy forum as lots of very informative posts went up there tonight. For starters, here's one that states that, as it stands now, the government can't modify mortgages if it buys up the MBS. The solution is bankruptcy modification which, if I'm not mistaken, wasn't included in the bailout bill.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=114x44082

The more I dig, the more the bailout bill looks like a huge scam with the taxpayers stuck paying the tab. Of course, I knew that all along but it looks like it's even worse than I suspected.

[AlphaCentauri]

47. They knew this was coming and they did nothing

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17343814/

Greenspan warns of U.S. recession risk
updated 9:23 a.m. PT, Mon., Feb. 26, 2007

[snappyturtle]

227. Yeah, easy for him to say and he knew when to get out didn't he?

I'm not slamming you....but greenspan just turns my stomach.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

44. You're not alone, SW

Look at the Comments section on the New York Times website. Over 800 comments (an unusually large number), and I'd say they're 90% opposed to the bailout or at least to a bailout without stringent conditions.

I especially like the suggestion that the execs of the failing firms be required to do community service helping with hurricane relief. Sending them to rebuild Iraq with their own hands would be a good idea, too.

[scarletwoman]

56. Thank you. People SHOULD be pissed off and outraged! It heartens me greatly that so many are.

The upper financial .01% deserve NOTHING from the rest of us.

If ever there were a time for the populace to rise up and say "ENOUGH!", this is it.

We should NOT have to go into hock because a bunch of unscrupulous bastards have been getting away with a con game for so long.

sw

[NoUsername]

86. You're absolutely right.

Why is it automatically assumed that it's up to the "taxpayers" to foot the bill for this one. Let the top 1% pay for the damn bailout and leave the rest of us out of it. Why the hell the Dems don't want to include that little stipulation in a bailout bill is beyond me. That should show more than anything how they are willing to sell each and every one of us out in order to protect their corporate masters.

For the "something has to be done" crowd, sure, this problem needs to be fixed. That doesn't mean it needs to be fixed with OUR DAMN MONEY. Let the rich bastards that have been benefiting from the deregulation that brought us this mess in the first place pay for the bailout. That would be the top 1% and, in particular, the top .1%. Leave the rest of us out of it.

[Two Americas]

132. with you

100% with you.

[bobbolink]

169. Yet, rather than riding that wave and gaining the respect of the citizenry,

the Dems will settle, once again.

Then wonder why they are sinking as a party.....

:nuke:

[AlphaCentauri]

45. also I would like to see the Republican bail out plan

why the democrats have to fix their mess

[TankLV]

51. Totally agree...

The dems better have a spine on THIS one...

[Bryn]

52. NO BAILOUT

They've been screwing us over too long with high interest rates, bogus charges on credit cards, predatory leading mortgages, changed bankruptcy laws to suit them, not us. Banks demand high % of interest rates yet they give so little interest rates for saving accounts, money markets, etc. They cut medicare in 50%. I fell down several months ago and thought I had cracked one of my ribs, medicare paid 50%! Good thing bill was small, but what if it was $5,000? I don't have $2,500 to pay. I rent a townhouse, pay for pet cares, have paid for car. I moved here from South Florida when I took an early retirement (to Arkansas).

When I first bought a new manufactured home in South Florida I had an excellent credit in 1999, I got screwed over real bad. What I didn't know was that Greentree Mortgage actually was a sub-prime mortgage/predatory type. Dealers fooled me into signing and when I realized that I was going to pay for 30 years, I told them I didn't want 30 years, but they said it could be changed so I signed. Turned out they wouldn't allow me to change to 15 year mortgage on a mobile home (it's supposed to be like a car), wouldn't let me re-finance it, forced me to pay so many bogus charges. Those dealers which I later learned got kick backs from Greentree Mortgage. Sub-Prime mortgage is for people with poor credit rating and low income, I wasn't that, I had excellent credit and was making good money. I managed to sell that house and got out of it. I NEVER FORGAVE the way they treated me. I learned my lesson the hard way. Also when those hurricanes hit us, private insurance companies dropped us like hot potatoes so we in South Florida (everyone of us) were stuck with HIGH INSURANCE RATE being run by Florida State government called CITIZEN. Normally my house insurance was 379.00 per year then they hit me with over 2,000 per year. That's why I left. Lots of foreclosures down there in South Florida mainly because of high insurance rates. Lots of time, it's not homeowner's fault. They just drowned when house insurance imposed on them got so high. I know.. I was there.

So SCREW THEM. No Bailout!

My 401K went down after 9/11 ... it wasn't very much when I got it out when I left my employment.

I don't know why many people are worry how it will affect us if they don't do the Bail Out, they already affect us in many negative ways too long, it doesn't make any difference to me.

[depakid]

54. Stupid is as stupid does

[dailykoff]

59. Bingo. For once, let's not swing at Dumbya's pinata.

Please please please do not do this Harry Reid and whoever else is getting ready to unbuckle their trousers for the five hundreth time.

[lostnfound]

87. Charlie Brown, don't kick that ball! nt

[bobbolink]

170. Have you called him? Try a toll-free number:

TOLL FREE:
these are TOLL FREE numbers to the capitol hill switchboard
1 [phone]
1 ( 800) 459-1887
1 [phone]
1 [phone]
1 [phone]
1 [phone]
1-[phone]

They do change from time to time, but one of 'em is bound to work.... urge everyone you know to call Reid and Pelosi, NOW!

[tama]

62. "Liberty or death"

there used to be such a slogan. But I guess most prefere slavery to the central bankers and the false sense of security the sell instead of liberty.

[Two Americas]

84. exactly right

That is what is at stake. "Give up you freedom or there will be a depression."

Hard times are coming either way. The question is this - will we be free, or will be be slaves?

[spoony]

177. Does that make the homeless are the most liberated people?

And I guess you are okay with a few million more being that free?

[Two Americas]

194. such a red herring

The Democratic party has ALWAYS stood or BOTH freedom and broad based prosperity and rejected the idea that it is either/or.

This is manipulative and cruel and unjust to peddle this line.

The two, freedom and prosperity, go hand in hand. You are making yet another "freedom or safety - choose one" argument. Haven't we had about enough of that "logic" and "reality" from the right wing? Haven't we had enough of that fear mongering and extortion, the bullying and deception? The bait and switch? The manipulation by and the arrogance of "the winners?" I have.

[TexasObserver]

64. I agree! And I can't believe so many Democrats are fooled AGAIN!!

Good Lord, how many times does Lucy have to pull the football away, Charlie Brown?!

[dailykoff]

65. But but if we don't there might not be any money in my ATM!

Was that a chunk of sky falling past my window or just a flicker from CNN?

[TexasObserver]

66. And - and - and - the mushroom cloud!!!

How many punches will the Democratic party step into?

How in the hell is the Democratic party saving Wall Street a month before the election?! Let the markets find their FAIR MARKET VALUE. That's the free market. They tell us to let it work, so let it work. Let it take the air out of this economy NOW, before the election. Why in God's name should we want to put off that deflation until after the election?

Let the GOP own the bad economy from now until the election.

[dailykoff]

67. It'll be interesting to see what excuse they give this time

for folding like a cheap card table. My guess is some inane "safeguard" like a provision against golden parachutes exceeding twice the total value of the company. A toothless provision.

[yurbud]

69. fix the problem but without our money.

[onenote]

109. care to suggest a way for that to be done?

[yurbud]

123. modify drug forfeiture laws to apply ti wall st. execs

toss their pasty asses in regular ass-rape prisons until they give up the numbers to their off-shore accounts. If that isn't enough, tax the wealthiest 1%.

[Karenina]

139. There are MANY WAYS, but FIRST one has to put panic aside

S-L-O-W D-O-W-N and think things through.

Here's one proposal:

http://www.alternet.org/story/100223?page=2

This is an EXCELLENT proposal from someone who KNOWS his shit:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article6459.html

The HYSTERICAL RUSH to turn over TRILLIONS and POWER to the same assholes who created this mess

IS THE TRAP. THE WHOLE TRAP, AND NOTHING BUT A TRAP

for American citizens AND their descendants for GENERATIONS.

[Karenina]

161. More proposals worth consideration:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3512791#3513150

This is a HUGE, COMPLICATED MESS. Even those who designed the computer generated algorithms of "exotic" investment vehicles do not understand how they work in the real world, nor did they ask as long as commissions were flowing like waterfalls. Remember that old saying, "Haste makes waste." Before anyone signs off on ANYTHING, this little old lady says,

OPEN AND AUDIT THE COOKED BOOKS!!!

The stench and smoke have been nauseating for some time.

[Two Americas]

146. a Democrat?

As a Democrat you cannot imagine anything that could be done? Amazing.

Before we talk about alternatives, we need to know which side people are on - the right or the left, the working people or the wealthy and powerful people.

If you are asking what is our alternative plan for helping the wealthy and powerful, the answer is we have no such plan because we have no such intention to help the wealthy and powerful.

If you are asking what can be done to help the working people, I can give you some links and you can read up on the traditional principles and ideals of the Democratic party and the Labor movement, about the struggles from the past, and about the alternatives to rule by the wealthy that people have fought for.

[onenote]

150. excuse me?

First, i simply asked a question of how the person suggesting that the problem be fixed without using any taxpayer money planned to do that. I got a couple of useful responses. You, on the other hand, had to be a jerk and suggest that I, as a Democrat cannot "imagine" anything that could be done.

I'm still not convinced that righting our financial ship can be done without some taxpayer investment. That doesn't mean I think that the current plan is the only or best plan. And I was interested in the links that suggested proposal for getting money to finance a recovery plan without dinging the stock brokers. Why you couldn't have simply done the same and provided me with the links you allude to without first questioning what "side" I'm on.

Sheesh..

[Two Americas]

153. no problem

You are falsely and maliciously characterizing those who oppose this bail out. Right here -

do you propose doing nothing? If not, what do you propose?
Its easy to yell "no bailout".

Now tell us what you think should be done. Because otherwise, you are simply advocating doing nothing.

And no one, including all of the economists raising questions about the chimpy bailout plan, think that doing nothing is a viable option

Why are you doing that? The only alternative to bailing out the fat cats is not "doing nothing."

[onenote]

160. reading comprehension not your strong suit I see

Not offering an alternative IS advocating doing nothing.
I think that there may be alternatives worth considering and that they should be discussed and investigated before rushing into a bad decision.

But I still recognize that something needs to be done.

[Two Americas]

195. just not true

I, and others, have posted many threads with many alternatives from many different people. If you are sincere in your request for "alternative plans" they are easy enough to find. Continuing to use this talking point - "they just want it to fall and want us to do nothing and they don't have a plan" is just not true. It just is not, no matter how many times it gets repeated. It is a smear being used by those who cannot, or will not, make a straightforward and honest argument to defend their point of view.

[Two Americas]

145. give our money back

It just anazes me that Democrats (!!) are arguing for giving Wall Street fat cats MORE money to play with.

[earth mom]

70. Agree with you totally! This is a rip off of epic proportions!!!

Those bastards are saving themselves while they throw us all to the sharks! :grr:

[AdHocSolver]

71. The $700 billion figure tells you that this bailout is just another swindle.

What independent government accountants have audited these banks and mortgage companies to determine exactly (or even approximately) what the real cost of a bailout would be. The argument is only give us this much money with no strings attached or watch the economy collapse. The $700 billion figure was pulled out of someone's hat (or ass).

If the swindlers don't know what the real amounts of bad debt and good debt are, where did they come up with this figure? Even more importantly, why is congress even discussing a bailout without having a serious audit of these corporations?

Maybe $30 billion dollars would satisfy the credit crunch. After all, the apparent value of these loans and packaged derivatives were seriously overinflated. $700 billion dollars is requested, not to save the economy, but to save the profits of the greedy swindlers who created this scheme.

The "main street" economy is considerably divorced from the "wall street" economy. The main street economy is already in bad shape due to the offshoring of jobs, the huge expense of the Iraq occupation, the inflation due to high oil prices (also a problem due to speculation), and the serious U.S. trade deficit.

Bailing out the swindlers on wall street will NOT fix the main street economy. This is the dilemma faced by Democrats. The main street economy is going to have a serious downside within a year or two. If the Democrats go along with this inflated bailout, the people will attack them for being so weak-spined and gullible. If they do the correct action to protect the public from this obvious swindle, the right wing will point to the economic recession and say it was the Democrats fault for not approving the bailout. (This is the same Republican scam that got the Democrats to keep funding the Iraq occupation, that is, if the Democrats don't give them the money without strings attached, then they don't "support" the troops.)

A recession or depression is going to happen no matter what is done about this swindle (euphemistically called a bailout). This is because the U.S. trade deficit and huge debt to foreigners is what is REALLY killing our economy. This talk of credit crunches is all smoke and mirrors. This country is spending its capital and selling all its assets to live off of credit cards. The foreigners who hold this debt are what is really important. These wall street companies are already bankrupt. A $700 billion bailout is de facto a scheme to bailout the swindlers and their suckers.

One more serious problem here. This credit crunch problem and this swindle occurred because of the mergers of these banks and investment houses. They are so huge, that they can't be seriously audited. The hugeness of these companies sets up an environment whereby these scams can be pulled off. Compaany "B" wants to buy overinflated company "A". However, they don't have enough assets. So, they get insiders in company "A" to deflate the value of their company to bring its price down to where company "B" can buy it. If they are really capable swindlers, they go to the government and ask for the money to make the purchase. Instead of merging these financial institutions, the government should be breaking them up.

[Jeanette in FL]

75. I wish I could recommend a post

You have summed it up perfectly. Great post.

[Raksha]

79. That's my take on it too.

But I couldn't have expressed it as well as you did--thanks!

[tomp]

127. thanks, that sounds about right. nt

[GOTV]

226. Where did they come up with this figure? From the same place most of their ideas come from

They've already admitted that they just picked a number that was really big.

"It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. "We just wanted to choose a really large number."

http://www.forbes.com/home/2008/09/23/bailout-paulson-congress-biz-beltway-cx_jz_bw_0923bailout.html


I heard others speculate that it was picked because it's a little larger than medicare and a little smaller than the defense budget.

[bridgit]

72. Works for me, let them eat their worthless financial instruments

[Imagevision]

73. And these asswipes are pushing to have no oversight? ->don't pass anything!

[Norrin Radd]

74. kr

[Two Americas]

76. absolutely

I can't believe the people here fear mongering and trying to bamboozle people about this. They are playing on people's feelings that they "don't know anything about economics." You don't need to know anything about economics, this is about theft and scams and lying. The defenders of this bill here sound like sales people for their damned "financial instruments" and "products." They are frantically talking as fast as they can, and making it all seem so complex, so confusing.

This an opportunity to take the whole ponzi scheme down once and for all. Propping it back up doesn't solve anything excerpt to perpetuate the illusion and the denial. We have nothing to lose and everything to gain by opposing Wall Street and the wealthy and powerful know, and not caving in to their extortion.

The fat cats are trying to save their own skins and line their own pockets. They don't care about any of us.

Yes there are going to be hard times. Hell, there already are hard times for millions, but we are in some sort of traumatized state of mass delusion and denial. There will be hard times either way - worse if we let this bill pass.


The bail out passes

We are a banana republic and the fat cats make a fortune and we are all in servitude and poverty ala Latin America. The end of freedom and death of any hope of ever restoring the middle class.

Your kids have no future.

The bail out does not pass

Belt tightening, unemployment, hard times, the end of easy money and the culture of greed and consumption, pulling together and hopefully pulling out if it.

Your kids have a chance at a future.

Either way, we are facing a depression. With a bailout we have a permanent depression - for us, the fat cats will be immune. Think Latin America.

If we don't bail out the fat cats, we have a temporary depression, as in the 30's, and we have a fighting chance.

Hard times are already here. You know that, I know that, millions know that. But there is an illusion - we are supposed to pretend that it is not bad times, or that if we are struggling it is somehow our fault. Almost everyone is struggling, but what makes it really difficult is that everyone denies the desperation, and everyone is on their own. If the bail out happens, that will continue and get worse and worse.

Some have good corporate jobs, investments, and are using credit and it is all "let the good times roll, and boy am I a clever winner!" They look at everyone not greedily and madly pursuing the good times, everyone who has fallen by the wayside or is hurting and struggling with contempt.

A lot of them are liberals and they have been lying to us that they are our friends. (That is the hardest adjustment that many of us are facing now.) They want the bail out the same way an addict wants one more fix.

But all of that prosperity was based on easy credit and wildly soaring housing prices. That was never sustainable, was never healthy, and it was inevitable that sooner or later it would crash and that meanwhile terrible damage would be done to our society and the environment. Well, it has crashed. It is over. The bail out proponents are desperately trying to breath life back into that Zombie, and the fat cats are trying to take the loot and run and position themselves - solidify their position - as an aristocracy while we all become peasants living in shacks.

The alternative, a depression, is much better. Remember - we will be terribly impoverished either way, everyone will be who isn't very well positioned, and at most 10% of the people are that fortunate.

So what if there is no capital to build yet more and more sprawling suburbs? More and more mindless amusements and entertainments, more junky wasteful trash? So what if people cannot play big shot and live wildly wasteful and meaningless lives?

If the bail out does not happen it is not as though things will get worse for most of us - or rather I should say that the rate at which things are getting worse will not increase. BUT we might have a chance to fight back. And the denial will be over and we can get to work.

There is no avoiding hard times - we know that, don't we? Hard times are already here. But think of all that people have traded away out of fear, out of the desperate effort to avoid facing reality.

Everything that we depended upon, the public infrastructure, the safety net, the protections, are already crumbling and will continue to crumble regardless until and unless the people band together and fight back.

People struggled and suffered in the 30's. But they had each other, they had a chance, they pulled together and fought their way through. They were free. They had each other. People living under the kind of system that we are evolving into, and that the bail out will accelerate, have nothing. Nothing. For generations. Look at those systems all through Latin America. That is what the fat cats are trying to do to us.

Do you know where the BBC interviewers are tonight to talk about and try to understand the market and the financially crisis? At a fucking casino. A casino. The people there understand the free market economy better than anyone. They are talking about "human nature" and greed and gambling. I kid you not. That is all the economy is - and the house always win. The free marketers have turned our country into a damned casino. The announcer asks the casino owner how his operation differs from Wall Street. "There is no difference" he says.

No the announcer is asking an economic professor what the difference is between this free market economy and a casino. "Nothing. Nothing at all."

Now the announcer is asking, "hold on, but what about the ethical issues? We say that gambling is bad, that it ruins lives and families, but we won't apply the same principles to the same situation when it comes to the free market economy."

Now a man, an economist is being interviewed who says "the banking industry is closer to sewage treatment than it is to manufacturing or other activities that actually create things of value. It ought to be seen as a utility, to be closely monitored and restricted so that the sewage doesn't back up and ruin everything, not as "business" - it isn't business."

I would rather be hungry than be a slave. I would rather face an unpleasant truth than to live a lie. I would rather have an honest nickel, a nickel that belongs to us, than all of the get rich promises in the world. I would rather share whatever I have with all of you than to be personally successful.

I would rather that we have each other than to have all of the money in the world. And we do not have each other, because this free market economy isolates us, makes us fearful and suspicious, drives us apart, places us in competition with each other.

[scarletwoman]

205. Thank you SO much! I really appreciate all your excellent posts on this thread.

I would rather be hungry than be a slave. I would rather face an unpleasant truth than to live a lie.

I'm amazed at some of the posts on this thread, all the rationalizations being offered for surrendering to the plutocrats.

What I'm hearing from those kind of posts is this: "If we don't give them what they want, they'll HURT us!"

I'm just thinking, "Wow!". This is exactly how the Mafia takes control of neighborhoods and businesses. All those people who respond to the Mafia shakedown by paying up and shutting up.

Freedom? Oh hell no, they don't want no freedom. They just want to pay up in the hopes that Joey won't come around to break their kneecaps.

What a pathetic bunch of cowardly fools...

sw

[Two Americas]

217. thanks for starting the great discussion

The responses are interesting, to say the least.

The pro-market people are using several different approaches in response...

The Sales Pitch

Dense, impenetrable thickets of verbiage are thrown up that sound so esoteric and academic and technical, that everyone wanders away convinced that this is just all over their head and they will never understand economics. For any one who has been to one of those dog and pony shows where some broker tries to con you into investing in his "financial products," this approach will be very familiar. "Bore them to death until they give up and sign on the dotted line" seems to be the approach. Since I obviously don't know anything about this, best to trust the experts. Try not to bring up the fact that they stand to make a lot of money if they can get us to roll over for them.

Threat Level Red!!!

This was once known as "fear! fear! fear!" but it is now color coded to maximize the anxiety effect, in keeping with the new Homeland Security regime under which we now live. The idea here is that if we don't give the fat cats everything they want, they will make sure we are all homeless, sleeping under a mushroom cloud, with nothing to eat but yellow cake.

Preemptive Attack

Long before anyone has had a chance to post anything critical of the bail out, or even think about it, we have dozens of posts like this: "I am sick and tired of these nut case socialists saying 'let it fall' or fantasizing about their glorious revolution! They are actually hoping for a depression to further their petty little personal agendas of blood and mayhem and fanatical ideology. All rational people should reject anyone criticizing the bailout!"

Cooler Heads Must Prevail

This is a variation of the preemptive attack. "Now some people will get all upset about this, but we need to all calm down and not go into panic mode or get too emotional about this." Of course, that pisses off everyone, so it is something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is a particularly destructive and malicious approach though, because it places the blame on the victim, as though it is people's reactions to perpetrations that are the problem, not the actual perpetrations. "If we all can just accept being robbed without getting upset, then it won't really be a crime" seems to be the "logic" there. "Could you please stop bleeding and moaning after I stab you? That is only making things worse, and it implies that I have done something wrong, which is not fair to me."

The Dreaded Loyalty Test

"Our revered and beloved Democratic party leaders have, in their great wisdom, have caved in and rolled over and are acting like demoralized cowards, crawling and cringing to the right wingers. We must do the same, in order to be loyal and to support them. What, do you want the Republicans to win?" Every time a Democratic politician gives in to the right wing, or even says any little thing that is moderate, wishy washy, compromising, tentative or weak, there is a chorus of people yelling "That's it! Yes! Moderate, wishy washy, compromising, tentative and weak! We have your back! We love you! We will support you no matter what!" Of course, the politicians listen, since we do have a representative democracy, and think "huh, that must be what they want. I guess I will keep giving them more of that."

Smear, Smear, Smear

When all else fails, personal attacks, smears and character assassination are next. You are a purist, troll, marxist, comrade, dreamer, socialist, loser, melodramatic, naive, impractical, unrealistic, fringe, far left, radical, ideologue, psycho, nut case, disloyal....

[OakCliffDem]

85. Kick

[Marrah_G]

89. errr...........wow.......... May I suggest less caffiene?

:yoiks: :yoiks:
:yoiks: :yoiks:
:yoiks: :yoiks:

[scarletwoman]

206. It's not caffiene, it's OUTRAGE. May *I* suggest a little more outrage?

Apparently, lots of DUers are really okay with Feudalism.

[Two Americas]

218. you are kidding right?

Are you trying to tell us that you can still afford coffee?

[alcibiades_mystery]

90. It's the Little Boy Who Cried Wolf Problem

Unfortunately for you, me, and the other people on this board, this time there REALLY is a wolf.

I hope your tantrum makes you feel better, because it is the kind of thing that will condemn a third of the people on this board to unemployment and foreclosure and penury. It will devastate the middle class, and hit the poor the hardest.

There's a wolf, scarletwoman. Yes, it is that bad. You will, maybe, be on this board in a year or two wondering what happened. The little boy ALWAYS cries wolf, you're saying now. No, sometimes there really is a wolf.

[Douglas Carpenter]

94. thank you!! I sense you are a more charitable person then me in understanding the lack curiosity!

I suppose, if no major multi-hundred billion dollar intervention package passes by the end of next week - we will all be seeing the wolf for ourselves with our own two eyes.

[Two Americas]

136. there is a wolf all right

A bail out feeds the wolf.

[AdHocSolver]

213. The real wolves are unregulated corporations pulling swindle after swindle on the American people.

It is about time we saw some legitimate anger over these repeated corporate swindles.

What will condemn Americans for sure is the corporate frenetic offshoring of American jobs to Asia and other low-wage areas. The bailout will not forestall a recession or a depression. The core problem with the U.S. economy is the HUGE trade deficit that we have with the rest of the world. The corporations are selling the assets of America to all comers. They are selling American technology to Asia. The corporate elite are pawning America for their own profit.

The middle class has been suffering devastation for the past eight years. Government surpluses gained during the last years of the Clinton administration have been squandered in unnecessary tax cuts, an unnecessary war and occupation of Iraq based on lies, a bloated military budget filled with waste, fraud, and spending on military hardware that will never be made to work properly.

Besides the huge economic debt due to buying just about everything from other countries on credit, the high unemployment and underemployment in the U.S. means that government revenues from income taxes are substantially reduced, and that, in turn, means less money for technical research, education, and maintaining infrastructure.

The best evidence that this demand for a "bailout" is just another swindle is that the corporations have not offered their books for auditing. How are we to know that that $700 billion is a legitimate figure? Maybe a mere $30 billion dollars would solve the liquidity problem. After all, these corporations leveraged their financial dealings. The fact that these corporations demand so much money without offering their ledgers for an independent audit before money changes hands sounds a lot like another fraudulent scheme.

[scarletwoman]

258. Great post, thank you for going to the trouble.

What really pisses me off is the possibility (or probability) that we'll still go into a deep recession, but we'll be $700 billion more in hock. Therefore, when social safety net programs are needed more desperately by more people, all we'll hear is that we can't afford the spending it would take.

sw

[blindpig]

93. Damn straight..

[tandot]

95. I assume your Ph.D. is in Economics?

Because it might make me reconsider my support for Obama and his economic plan. After all, he only has a bunch of clueless people advising and supporting him:

http://econ4obama.blogspot.com/2008/06/obama-economic-advisors-and-economic.html

Economic policy advisors:
Jason Furman (director of economic policy) source bio
Austan Goolsbee (senior economic policy advisor), University of Chicago tax policy expert source Wikipedia website
Karen Kornbluh (policy director) source bio Wikipedia
David Cutler, Harvard health policy expert source Wikipedia website
Jeff Liebman, Harvard welfare expert source Wikipedia website
Michael Froman, Citigroup executive source bio
Daniel Tarullo, Georgetown law professor source bio
David Romer, Berkeley macroeconomist source website
Christina Romer, Berkeley economic historian source website
Richard Thaler, University of Chicago behavioral finance expert source Wikipedia

Robert Rubin, former Treasury Secretary source Wikipedia bio
Larry Summers, former Treasury Secretary source Wikipedia bio
Alan Blinder, former Vice-chairman of the Federal Reserve source Wikipedia bio website
Jared Bernstein, Economic Policy Institute labor economist source bio
James Galbraith, University of Texas macroeconomist source Wikipedia website

Paul Volcker, Chairman of the Federal Reserve 1979-1987 source Wikipedia
Laura Tyson, Berkeley international economist, Bill Clinton economic adviser source Wikipedia
Robert Reich, Berkeley public policy professor, former Secretary of Labor source Wikipedia weblog
Peter Henry, Stanford international economist source website
Gene Sperling, former White House economic adviser source Wikipedia

Other prominent economists who support Obama:
Brad Delong, Berkeley macroeconomist source Wikipedia website weblog
Joseph Stiglitz, 2001 Nobel laureate source Wikipedia
Edmund Phelps, 2006 Nobel laureate source Wikipedia
Ray Fair, Yale macroeconomist source Wikipedia
Dan McFadden, 2000 Nobel laureate source website
Robert Solow, 1987 Nobel laureate source Wikipedia

Prominent finance people who support Obama:
(not actually economists)
William Donaldson, Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) Chair 2003-05 source Wikipedia
Arthur Levitt, SEC chair 1993-2001 source Wikipedia
David Ruder, SEC chair 1987-1989 source Wikipedia
Warren Buffet, investor, richest person in world source Wikipedia

[Eric J in MN]

111. Bush has an MBA from Harvard.

How has he been doing in managing the economy so far?

Bush is an expert with an advanced degree from Harvard.

[tandot]

114. What does that have to do with my post? Or is Bush an adviser to Obama?

I trust the economic experts on Obama's team. If he says that a bailout is necessary, I'd rather believe him than someone with dubious economic knowledge on DU.

[Eric J in MN]

116. Their expertise didn't lead...

...them to say for the past two years that the Treasury Secretary should get billions to buy trash from Wall St.

The Bush Administration proposed that, and then these experts went along.

[tandot]

119. This is your opinion, of course.

:shrug:

[bread_and_roses]

203. And are not a good few of them Chigago Boys, Neo-Lib Free-Marketeer Globalizers?

I'm supposed to trust them? I think not. I have been very disappointed in Obama's economic rhetoric - what little of it there has been - since the Primaries ended.

[AdHocSolver]

214. More than due to their degrees, these affluent people have a lot of money invested in corporations.

This is the major reason for their push for a bailout. To save their own money.

This bailout plan isn't a "bailout". It is a swindle couched in verbiage that sounds a lot like an attempt at extortion.

As I have stated in other threads, most of the punditry cited in other posts, even by economists, maybe especially by economists, is so much horse manure.

A bailout will not prevent a recession or depression. This country has been headed that way for at least two years now. The high inflation we are experiencing, the increasing unemployment caused in large part by outsourcing of jobs, and the huge trade deficit are all more significant factors than this collapsed Wall Street swindle gone sour. These corporate scam artists are trying to use the fact that the economy is tanking anyway to scare people into giving them more money. The reality is that a $700 billion bailout won't fix the economy. It may even make matters worse as "printing" more money to fund a bailout will exacerbate the inflation, and could cause a worse collapse even sooner.

As for a PhD, an alternative definition, more relevant than not, is "Piled higher and Deeper".

By the way, I do have a B.A. in Economics, and I do know what I am talking about when discussing the economy.

[Not the Only One]

97. Yep. Time to draw the line. I put people first above party.

I do understand why Barney Frank loves the bailout. He represents one of the wealthiest corporate districts in America, and a median income of 65,100. That doesn't make it right for the rest of us.

[onenote]

108. do you propose doing nothing? If not, what do you propose?

Its easy to yell "no bailout".

Now tell us what you think should be done. Because otherwise, you are simply advocating doing nothing.

And no one, including all of the economists raising questions about the chimpy bailout plan, think that doing nothing is a viable option.

[Not the Only One]

124. Full seizure of the assets and oppressive regulation in the future

We have to make them pay if they want the money.

[Astrad]

98. There are not two systems, i.e. one for the rich and one for

everybody else. It's the same system and any change in it effects everyone but to different degrees. So this wealthy .01 percent you want to see suffer will suffer far less than everyone else. In fact they'll hardly be affected in any real sense. They own property aboard, they have foreign bank accounts, they hold other currencies, they can get other citizenships if they don't have them already. Yes they'll lose lots of their wealth but they will still be light years ahead of everyone else if the financial system in the US collapses. So while many here will be pushing shopping carts to the food bank, they'll be reduced to sipping Pernod on the terrace of their house in the South of France and waxing nostalgic about the good old Greenspan days.

[Two Americas]

248. yes there is

Of course there is. I can't imagine how anyone could look at American society and say there are not two systems.

That is like saying that there are not two systems in a prison, and that the keepers and the inmates are all part of the same system, and whatever is good for the jailers is good for the prisoners.

There are two different sets of rules. One for the wealthy, one for the rest of us.

Who cares about the upper 1 percent or whatever? Who is calling for them to suffer? I care about the millions who are already suffering.

Does everyone realize that the exact same argument could be used, and was used, to defend slavery?

"There are not two systems, i.e. one for the masters and one for the slaves. It's the same system and any change in it effects everyone but to different degrees. So these masters that you want to see suffer will suffer far less than everyone else. In fact they'll hardly be affected in any real sense. They own property abroad, they have foreign bank accounts, they hold other currencies, they can get other citizenships if they don't have them already. Yes they'll lose lots of their wealth but they will still be light years ahead of everyone else if the slavery system in the US collapses."

I am not exaggerating here, nor merely trying to be provocative. Read the debates from the 1850's between Abolitionists and the defenders of slavery. We are having the exact same arguments today, even to include the "house Negro" point of view - slaves with a little more privilege and status than the field Negroes, identifying with and defending master.

"Sure, slavery is bad, don't get me wrong I agree with you. But if we just ended it think of the chaos and suffering, for all of us."

[MillieJo]

99. This affects of this bailout will be of benefit to

the International Market. It isn't just a Wall Street problem, the whole world is watching and is very nervous right now.
This far bigger than the Dem party. I also think that if Obama looses, the whole world is in deep shit and Wall Street will crash.
The world outside is literally holding it's breath as we watch Washington DC. This can bring governments down.
Every day there are job loses on the news, we have fuel prices so high, that the elderly can't afford to heat their homes.
In the UK the practices of the banks and finacial trader the has been condemned by our Archbishop Of Canterbury in a contrast to the Christian leaders in the USA.

http://www.episcopalchurch.org/81808_101060_ENG_HTM.htm

[Suspicious]

101. Agree 100%

As much as the idea of what is to come frightens me, it is high time for these inhuman, soulless bastards to reap what they have sown.

Mankind has seen hard times before, folks, and we're still here. I refuse to sell my soul to these robber barons just so I can keep my cozy, undisturbed lifestyle. We can be there for eachother, and we can make it through this. I personally intend to be there for everyone that I can who is hurting worse than me.

The fact that our "representatives" are ignoring us on this is doubly infuriating. :mad:

[Haole Girl]

103. link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4095608

[Eric J in MN]

110. Dick Cheney is an expert on national security...

...if one goes by his job titles as Secretary of Defense and Vice President. He was wrong.

Henry Paulson is an expert on finance if one goes by his job titles as CEO of Goldman Sachs and Treasury Secretary. He is wrong.

There won't be a worldide Depression between now and January regardless of whether Congress passes the bailout bill.

Cheney wanted to give money to his former corporation Halliburton.

Paulson wants to give money to his former corporation Goldman Sachs.

Congress should vote NO.

Please tell them NO:
http://thismodernworld.com/4479

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

112. But..but.. the politicians and bankers are going "fix it". As in, "the fix is in."

It's sorta like hiring the Sopranos to "fix" your books.

[wvbygod]

115. Will you be taking in and feeding all those that are put on the street?

What is your scarlet bailout plan?

[Eric J in MN]

117. There isn't going to be a Great Depression between now and January...

...if Congress refuses to go along with this plan.

Congress should wait for a new president and carefully consider what he proposes in January.

[redqueen]

120. And you know this how? WaMu collapsed last night.

And how about a few HUGE banks gobbling up all the smaller ones? Is that a desirable outcome for you as well, or do you think, like a major crash, that it just won't happen? And if so, why?

[Eric J in MN]

121. When a corporation engages in risky investments...

...and has to declare bankruptcy, that is what the bankruptcy system is for.

We shouldn't give Goldman Sachs billions in reward for their risky investments. That would encourage more risky investments.

If the stock market crashes, then the good stocks will rise, again.

A big investment bank declaring bankruptcy, as Lehman Brothers did, gives a chance both for big and small investment banks to try to sign up their customers.

[Alcibiades]

181. Wasn't WaMu a huge bank?

Smaller banks and credit unions actually have less exposure to this.

[redqueen]

182. Less exposure doesn't necessarily guarantee they'll remain solvent does it?

True enough they have less exposure... but IMO it's a huge problem even to have enormous banks eating up the slightly less enormous ones.

:shrug:

[bobbolink]

172. the fear tactics aren't working any more.

Sorry about that.

Try something else.

[alfredo]

128. They should add a small fee on all trades. That fee would be used to insure

solvency of the banks.

[merkins]

129. K&R!

"Just back the fuck off and DON'T PASS ANYTHING!"

[anitar1]

130. I agree, Scarlet . I would prefer no bailout. After reading and watching

speeches, especially. I agree with Kenneth Galbraith.

[nolabels]

147. The majority of politicians are not lawyers by accident

They will all negotiate the thing till it dies anyway. I won't be getting too excited myself but i would think the smart thing of giving them enough rope to hang themselves should always be okay :-)

[MsRedacted]

148. YOU'RE WRONG! Paul Krugman said it best:

Where Are the Grown-Ups?

By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: September 25, 2008

Many people on both the right and the left are outraged at the idea of using taxpayer money to bail out America’s financial system. They’re right to be outraged, but doing nothing isn’t a serious option. Right now, players throughout the system are refusing to lend and hoarding cash — and this collapse of credit reminds many economists of the run on the banks that brought on the Great Depression.

It’s true that we don’t know for sure that the parallel is a fair one. Maybe we can let Wall Street implode and Main Street would escape largely unscathed. But that’s not a chance we want to take.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/26/opinion/26krugman.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin

--------------

Rather than spewing venom, if you don't like the bailout: propose something else that is more workable to you -- or find someone who does. But don't sit there and complain and belly ache when you don't understand economics. OR maybe you do understand economics are you are happy to watch the rest of us suffer.

I don't like it either, but I own a small business and I'm not interested in standing in a bread line next year. You are either independently wealthy, a gambler or a cold uncaring individual who doesn't care about the innocent victims an economic disaster will create.

I'm worried. We need something, the lack of credit will kill small business. Right now there is NO credit being given -- until a little while ago, banks weren't even lending to each other. Now if they do, it's very limited and very expensive.

This week I've had vendor after vendor call me to ask about payment. My clients are paying more slowly. My vendors want $$ more quickly. But I can't pay until my clients pay -- or until there is credit available. Not without risking my own well being. That is the way small business is run. And the lack of credit for the small businesses I know, my vendors, and my large corporate clients is very scary.

[Two Americas]

152. very disappointing

People are choosing up sides on this, and it is instructive to see who comes down on which side.

As for alternatives, and your derogatory and false characterization of those who disagree with you on this -

Right wingers give hand outs to the wealthy and powerful to "fix" things.

Those of us on the Left advocate relief programs for the working people.

The first approach leads to tyranny and neo-feudalism - can anyone who has been paying attention deny that?? - the second approach is tried and true and overcame the last depression.

You cannot ask people on the Left what their alternative plans are for helping out the wealthy and powerful. We have none, we never will have plans for helping the wealthy and powerful.

The promoters of the interests of Wall Street here - do they have am alternative that will help the working people? They claim that this bail out will. That is the Reagan trickle down promise. The people are finally rejecting Reagan economics - loudly and unambiguously. Why on earth are some liberals and Democrats trying to suppress that?

[EFerrari]

157. The problem is small business owners are neither.

I've yet to see one bail out with their golden parachute. They also create the most jobs for working people.

Small business owners will suffer terribly from a credit freeze, are suffering right now. They are low hanging fruit for the Wall Street vultures.

[Two Americas]

158. of course

There is no conflict between the needs of working people and small business people. The New Deal helped both, honored the needs of both.

[EFerrari]

159. But BushCo has treated them like poor cousins when they are

the engine that keeps us going. That's what the poster was trying to say, imho.

And, do you notice, there is no language, no talking points that address this vital sector during this bailout cr@p. No wonder small business people are worried -- no one is thinking about them. We're having a completely bi-polar conversation that overlooks the very heart of our economy. It's insane.

[Two Americas]

202. I agree absolutely

You are making an extremely important point. I am talking to dozens and dozens of small family farmers this week, begging them to not fall for the argument that what is good for big business is good for small business, what is good for Wall Street will be good for them. Giving the banks more power may seem to help a little in the short run, but it is disaster in the long run for small businesses. I have yet to fail to persuade a farmer on this, and there is a populist revolution going on in rural America right now. If is is bad for farmers - and God is it ever, it could be the kiss of death - who are the most vulnerable, the most dependent upon credit, it is a guaranteed disaster for all other small business people.

Let's help small businesses - this could be done, and could be done right now. It isn't unrealistic, it isn't pie on the sky, it isn't something that would take a long time. If Democrats immediately started to talk about a bail out for workers and small businesses, public relief programs along the lines of the New Deal, they would have the support of 70% of the people, would be swept into office with a significant mandate, and could begin immediately to rebuild the country and undo the damage the free marketers have done, and there would be no crisis. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, a chance to destroy the extreme right wing for a generation or more. We must push the Democratic party politicians on this, let them know that we would have their backs. But they must stand up. They must speak out and they must act.

[MsRedacted]

178. You answer is academic. A credit freeze will kill small biz, all biz. I AM WORKING PEOPLE.

I am not powerful or wealthy. I am not asking for a handout.

I am asking simply that you consider what doing nothing will do.

You want to make this into a class war, people like me and the people who work for me and with me will be the victims. Right now, I am the only business of my type in my area that is
busy. I am keeping more people afloat than you will ever know. And if clients can't use their credit lines to pay me in a timely manner -- many people will suffer.

If you find that "instructive" and it makes you feel better about yourself (as it seems it does.) You are one sick puppy. I suspect you are sitting in a no risk situation -- that the economy falling apart will have no direct effect on you.

You want to bring about change and another New Deal -- hey I'm 100% behind it. No one hates republicans and republican politics more than me.

But you want to wait until everything falls apart to do it -- and that's not helpful. In fact that'll be a real disaster. You really want to wait until we are all unemployed -- and then come in and save the day. Help workers? I gotta tell ya, putting workers on the unemployment line -- draining their savings, for some principle? That's just about the most savage thing I've ever heard.

You need to stop thinking about us and them and wanting to win -- and come up with a plan to preserve the America's business structure. If that means bailing out a few banks at first -- so be it. The people who caused this can be made to pay. The simple fact is without big banks making loans, there is no business -- small or large.

FIxing this problem is not about handouts -- it's about keeping the house of cards from crumbing. I'm not saying this deal is good, I am not saying this deal couldn't be something very different. But before you completely shut it out -- come up with another alternative.

I have no patience for people who complain who have no better answers.

[Two Americas]

249. we are on the same side

Don't let them divide and conquer us.

There is no "win" here, and no hidden personal agenda on my part.

Class war is already happening - the battle ia already raging. No one is advocating initiating one.

The stress and anxiety you are feeling is not being caused by me, the source of your troubles is the same as the source of all of our troubles.

Think of yourself as George Bailey, not as Mr. Potter. We are in this together.

[Two Americas]

149. kick

Here is what is really strange. Republican lawmakers are opposing a bail out. Why? Because their constituents are flooding their offices with email and phone calls, and they are all saying "no!!!" They do have to run for re-election, after all.

But the Democrats, yes the Democrats, are the ones arguing in favor of this (with a few crumbs for the peasants.)

I guess Democrats don't need to run for re-election? Or perhaps there is something else that is a higher priority than winning?

Just from a practical political standpoint, this is suicide for the Democrats. WTF? "We will support Wall Street, as Wall Street destroys the working class, but it is OK we are still on the left because we support green stuff and choice?" I mean WTF?

40 years ago, if some politician said "economic hard times are coming .... so we need to bail out Wall Street... working people would have laughed. No Democrat would give that any consideration whatsoever.

Listen folks, Wall Street is the right wing and the right wing is Wall Street. Opposition to Wall street is the Left Wing. Period. There is no such thing as support for Wall Street that is not right wing. There is no such thing as a right wing that does not support Wall Street. There is no such thing as being left wing and supporting Wall Street in any shape or form.

If people cannot take a stand against Wall Street now, they have no claim to being anything but a right winger - and bailing out Wall Street with taxpayer money is the extreme right wing.

The people are opposed to the right wing - so much so that even Republican politicians are opposing this.

There are two choices -

1. Bail out the people. That means New Deal social programs. That rebuilds the economy.

2. Bail out those who are preying on the people. That means feudalism. That hands the economy over to the few.

The first is the political left, the second is the political right.

[undergroundpanther]

224. I say

Amputate the right wing cut that cancer out of power. I don't care if there is an R or a D next to their name if they support wealthy insatiable robber barons wall street scams in any way shape or form they are treacherous traitorous scum..Let the corrupt pampered Casino betters OWN their own failures.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

151. Thank God Our Dems Aren't That Ignorant.

Thank God.

[Dr Fate]

175. It's true- the past 8 years proves Our DEMS know how "the real world" works.

They know how it works for the Republicans who get them to do whatever they want, that is.

People who type on message boards are never a smart as DEM strategists- I mean, those "key board warriors" are the idiots who didnt trust Bush or support the war. But Our DEMS were too smart for their wacky, far left ideas.

Yes- hopefully Our DEMS will continue to display such unquestionable & infalliable wisdom as they have on invading Iraq, keeping the Republicans honest on the economy, & opposing Bush in general over the past 8 years. Er...wait.

I know, I know- they have an excuse-they even have several of them!

[scarletwoman]

208. Yes, thank God. Thank God for the Divine Right of Kings. Thank God for the Aristocracy.

Thank God for all those who demonstrate His favor by accumulating enormous personal wealth. Thank God for feudalism, where everyone knows his proper place in the Divine Order.

Oh, and thank God for the belief in God, which manages to fool most of the people all of the time.

sw

[Moochy]

223. Thank God

That Noone Takes OMC Seriously anymore.

[democracy1st]

162. Buffett: 'Heaven help us' if bailout fails

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080926/pl_politico/13864

[Dr Fate]

174. Buffet & 2 or 3 of his Country club buddies could come up with $700 Billion in about 5 seconds.

If he's so concerned, why hasnt he & 2 or 3 of his buddies offered to foot the bill? WTF does he expect *ME* to pay for this?

Serioulsy?

[Alcibiades]

183. Let the private sector do it

Government cannot set prices efficiently. Let the private sector value these assets.

That's what the economists and MBAs who have been championing this economy for years have been saying at every opportunity. If the government wants to set a higher minimum wage--oh, noes! That's socialism. If investment banks hold a lot of securities backed by bad mortgages--well, then it's time for government to step in and proactively correct this completely unforeseeable macroeconomic disequilibrium.

Fuck them very much. If this problem is so important to the Wall Street, let Wall Street fix it. 700 billion is a lot of capital? Sure, but isn't that what Wall Street is for? If Wall Street cannot get their hands on 700 billion in private capital for this, it must not be worth doing.

[Dr Fate]

192. I thought I was the only "crazy" person thinking this. n/t

n/t

[scarletwoman]

212. Welcome to the "crazy" club. nt

[scarletwoman]

211. Damn straight! nt

[Swamp Rat]

164. "You'lllll beeeeee sooooooorrrrry!!!"

Never make deals with fascists.

[Dr Fate]

173. I disagree- I want DEMS to argue for a $700 Billion bailout for small biz & low income workers...

....and people struggling with debt, etc.

LOL! I know, I made a funny. Small businesses & "moderates" would never go for that kind of relief- it's "too far left"!!!

[closeupready]

189. Nor, God forbid, can we discuss raising taxes on the wealthy to pay for this bailout.

Oh, no, because the Republicans won't like that. :sarcasm: :mad:

[Dr Fate]

193. If we did that, it would surely wind up being a "trap." n/t

n/t

[sendero]

176. I agree...

... one final ripoff of the american people by Bush.

A lot of Dem pols just don't get it, the PEOPLE DO NOT WANT A BAILOUT.

There will be a huge political backlash against the bailout if it does happen, largely because IT WILL NOT HELP.

[countryjake]

179. Don't ya know? You're either with us or against us...

the very nature of the beast...the "democracy" of pigs

[pacalo]

180. Most certainly!!!

[ziptied]

187. What about articles like this? I searched the forums but didn't find any discussion

Sorry if this has been refuted, but I searched the forums and couldn't find any post relating to this topic. There is a lot of this going around blaming the Democrats for the financial crisis. I hope Obama is ready for this:

The credit crisis and the lack of oversight over government-subsidized lenders like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac occurred on the watch of George Bush, and many blame his economic team for their lack of oversight in the collapse. Barack Obama has made this point one of his major campaign themes, arguing that John McCain would provide more of the same failures that Bush did. However, what many do not recall is that Bush wanted to tighten oversight with a new regulatory board for Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and other government recipients for the express purpose of addressing bad loan practices — and Democrats blocked it.

The New York Times reported this five years ago:

The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago.

Under the plan, disclosed at a Congressional hearing today, a new agency would be created within the Treasury Department to assume supervision of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored companies that are the two largest players in the mortgage lending industry.

The new agency would have the authority, which now rests with Congress, to set one of the two capital-reserve requirements for the companies. It would exercise authority over any new lines of business. And it would determine whether the two are adequately managing the risks of their ballooning portfolios.

The plan is an acknowledgment by the administration that oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — which together have issued more than $1.5 trillion in outstanding debt — is broken. A report by outside investigators in July concluded that Freddie Mac manipulated its accounting to mislead investors, and critics have said Fannie Mae does not adequately hedge against rising interest rates.

This should have been a no-brainer, right? With hindsight, we can see that the Bush administration had accurately diagnosed the problem in the lending market and had a plan to address it. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reluctantly supported the plan. However, Democrats objected (emphases mine):

Among the groups denouncing the proposal today were the National Association of Home Builders and Congressional Democrats who fear that tighter regulation of the companies could sharply reduce their commitment to financing low-income and affordable housing.

”These two entities — Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — are not facing any kind of financial crisis,” said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ”The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.”

Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed.

”I don’t see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing,” Mr. Watt said.

Sounds a little like the Democratic denial of problems in Social Security, doesn’t it? Nothing to see here, no crisis on the horizon. Everybody just move along, now. The Democrats had forced lenders to assume more risk at lower interest rates in the 1990s, as IBD points out today, and they didn’t want to countenance an end to their populist policies:

But it was the Clinton administration, obsessed with multiculturalism, that dictated where mortgage lenders could lend, and originally helped create the market for the high-risk subprime loans now infecting like a retrovirus the balance sheets of many of Wall Street’s most revered institutions.

Tough new regulations forced lenders into high-risk areas where they had no choice but to lower lending standards to make the loans that sound business practices had previously guarded against making. It was either that or face stiff government penalties.

The untold story in this whole national crisis is that President Clinton put on steroids the Community Redevelopment Act, a well-intended Carter-era law designed to encourage minority homeownership. And in so doing, he helped create the market for the risky subprime loans that he and Democrats now decry as not only greedy but “predatory.”

Yes, the market was fueled by greed and overleveraging in the secondary market for subprimes, vis-a-vis mortgaged-backed securities traded on Wall Street. But the seed was planted in the ’90s by Clinton and his social engineers. They were the political catalyst behind this slow-motion financial train wreck.

And it was the Clinton administration that mismanaged the quasi-governmental agencies that over the decades have come to manage the real estate market in America.

It was the Bush administration that wanted to rein in the madness in the credit markets, and the Democrats who wanted to extend the Clinton policies that created the crisis we have now. After the fit hit the shan, as Michelle says, these same Democrats want to shift blame back to the administration that wanted to increase oversight and curtail risk in lending practices while reducing patronage at the giant GSEs.

The Bush administration isn’t blameless in letting this get out of hand, but clearly the origins of the disaster and the efforts to keep bad policies in place fall on the Democrats in this case.

Update: John Lott points me to a March column he wrote at Fox News explaining the underlying causes of the debacle. Forcing lenders to make questionable loans and blocking tougher regulation of the government-supported entities was a recipe for collapse, and Lott explained it six months before it happened

[David Zephyr]

188. You are in a minority here, but I'm glad you see this the same way.

The question is:

Why are the Democrats bailing out George W. Bush without the Republicans who will use this like meat cleavers against them in four weeks?

[Two Americas]

196. the tail is wagging the dog

SW is not in the minority, here nor in the general public. A relatively small number of people is controlling and dominating the discussion, and using an array of bullying and dishonest tactics to break up the discussion, confuse and scare people and intimidate them, and make it appear that they have broader support for their point of view than is actually there.

[David Zephyr]

215. I hope you are right...

but I was surprised by the venom that came against those of us who are correct in being suspicious of the "good" motives of GW Bush, Dick Cheney and Karl Rove.

I appreciate your comments. They are welcome news and I hope you are right.

[Two Americas]

221. I think so

Whenever there are polls here, 70-80% or more of the people here consistently take the more left wing position. TahitiNut did a survey of people's positions on that political compass thing, and everyone was in the lower left quadrant, with most of us bunched down in the lower left corner. Yet to look at the threads, one would think that half of the people here were very conservative, to the fight of most democrats especially on economic issues, and they often win the arguments or at least disrupt or close down the threads. There are a relative handful of people who seem to be on a mission - prevent any left wing political talk from even getting started.

This is also true of the general public. 70% of the people, when asked about political issues in a non-partisan way, support New Deal left wing political positions,

Within both parties, there is a small faction that controls and steers the narrative. The share a conservative view on economics, and try to drive the political debate back to culture war issues and distract us from matters of economics and power. Even on the culture war issues, the public is not as divided as the domineering people would have us believe. On those issues 70-80% take, at the very least, a "live and let live" attitude and would not oppose liberal culture war causes if they were within a context of left wing New Deal program that addresses the power and wealth imbalance and injustices.

Those who are doing fairly well, or who admire those who are and hope to be themselves, be they "liberal" or not, support the upper class agenda. They know they don't have the numbers, so through a number of tricks they try to cast a big shadow and to confuse and frighten and bully people.

[G_j]

191. Kucinich's Main Street Recovery Plan

a bit of sanity...


KUCINICH’S MAIN STREET RECOVERY PLAN

Dear Friend,

While Wall Street and the Bush Administration try to blackmail Congress into a $700 billion bailout for corporations that have shown zero concern about the plight of the American people through the last decade, I have been working on a comprehensive alternative. Today, I am releasing a plan for economic recovery that will provide not only economic stimulus, but also fairness for everyday people on every "Main Street" in America.
The plan is detailed below, and it will also be available on the campaign website www.kucinich.us.


Of course, this is a plan that has not only economic implications, but also moral and spiritual implications as well. The social, economic, and political divisions in our nation must be healed. We can make a new beginning, seizing this moment of crisis and transforming it into a moment of rebirth for our nation. I hope you will take the time to read it, consider it, and share it with your friends. I welcome your comments and your support.


More tomorrow.


Thank you,


Dennis
www.Kucinich.us
216-252-9000 877-933-6647

Kucinich's Main Street Recovery Plan

1. Health Care for All: Insurance companies make money not providing health care. As the co-author of HR 676, a universal, single-payer, not-for-profit health care system, Medicare for All, I understand millions of Americans want health care that is accessible and affordable.


Medicare for All will help businesses large and small, create jobs as well as save the jobs of thousands of people including those of doctors, nurses and other healthcare workers who are currently leaving medicine because it is run by the insurance companies. $1 in every 3 dollars of the $2.4 trillion spent annually in America for health care goes to the insurance companies. If we take that money ($800 billion in unproductive wasteful spending) and put it directly into care, we will have enough money to cover everyone. We are already paying for Medicare for all, but not receiving it.
HR 676 changes that!

2. Prescription Drug Benefit for Seniors: HR 6800 is the MEDS Act, which provides a fully paid prescription drug benefit, under Medicare, for all seniors. I wrote this bill to help alleviate the economic pressure that comes from the high cost of prescription drugs. We can pay for it by letting the government negotiate drug prices with the pharmaceutical companies as well as by permitting re-importation.


3. Stop the Oil Companies' Price Gouging: As you know, I was the first one to step up to challenge of the corrupt price gouging and market speculation of the oil companies by proposing a windfall profits tax, on oil and natural gas companies, with revenues put into tax credits for the purchase of fuel-efficient American-made cars. However, it may be that nationalization is the only way to put an end to the oil companies' sharp practices.


4. Protecting the American Homestead: As Chairman of the Domestic Policy Oversight Subcommittee, I am working to protect your basic right to have a roof over your head, whether as an owner or renter. I have investigated and helped to expose the manipulation of mortgage markets, and I am crafting a new federal policy so that neighborhoods with the highest number of foreclosures get the most help.


5. Jobs for All: Congressman LaTourette and I have co-authored the bi-partisan New Deal-type jobs program, HR 3400, "Rebuilding America's Infrastructure." It will create millions of good-paying new jobs rebuilding our roads, bridges, water systems and sewer systems.


6. American Manufacturing Policy: I am drafting the American Manufacturing Policy Act, which for the first time, will state that the maintenance of U.S. steel, automotive, and aerospace industries are vital to our national economic security and must be maintained through integrated public-private cooperation, new trade policies, and investment.


7. Works Green Administration: I am also drafting plans for a green New Deal jobs program, in which the government creates millions of jobs by incentivizing the design, engineering, manufacturing, distribution and maintenance of millions of wind and solar micro-technologies for millions of homes and businesses, dramatically lowering energy costs and reducing our dependence on oil.


8. Fair Trade: The U.S. has lost millions of good-paying jobs, and more jobs have been out-sourced. As you know, I have helped to lead the way in opposition to trade giveaways. I strongly urge repeal of NAFTA. We must include workers' rights, human rights and environmental quality principles in all trade pacts. We must also protect the Great Lakes' water resources from the reach of multi-national corporations.


9. Education for All: I know families need help with the rising cost of day care. That is why I introduced HR 4060, a universal pre-kindergarten program to ensure that all children ages 3-5 have access to full-day, quality day care.


10. Protecting Pensions: I am working to change bankruptcy laws so pensioners' claims will be first, ahead of banks, and that corporate executives who misuse workers' pension funds are subject to criminal penalties. I want to fully fund the Pension Benefit Guarantee Board.


11. Social Security: From my first moments in Congress, I have exposed Wall Street's efforts to privatize Social Security and attacked it in the Democratic Caucus when it was being proposed. Can you imagine where seniors would be today if Social Security had been turned over to the stock market? Social Security is solid through 2032 without any changes.


12. Protect Bank Deposits: I will work to make sure the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) has sufficient funds to provide for insurance of deposits up to $200,000 at all banks and savings and loans. This is an urgent matter since so many banks are said to be vulnerable.


13. Protect Investors: Bring back strong regulation to Wall Street. As Chairman of the Domestic Policy Subcommittee, I challenged the Wall Street hedge fund speculators as a threat to small investors. I intend to keep active watch over the machinations on Wall Street.


14. Strength through Peace: You'll remember when I led the effort against the ill-conceived Iraq war, which has now cost more than 4,100 US soldiers' lives, cost U.S. taxpayers between $3 trillion and $5 trillion, and resulted in the deaths of more than a million Iraqis. We must bring our troops home and end the war. We must engage in diplomacy. We must reduce the military budget, and we must stop outrageous cost overruns by the likes of Halliburton.


15. Safety in America: I am proud of my work for peace. In July 2001, I introduced a bill, which today is HR 808, that for the first time creates a comprehensive plan to deal with the issues of violence in American society, particularly domestic violence, spousal abuse, child abuse, gang violence, gun violence, racial violence, and violence against gays by establishing a Cabinet-level Department of Peace and Restorative Justice. This proposal has sparked a national movement and when implemented will save tax payers millions of dollars.


16. Monetary Policy: It is long past the time that we looked at the implications of our debt based monetary system, the privatization of money created by the 1913 Federal Reserve Act, the banks fractional reserve system and our debt-based economic system. Unless we have dramatic reform of monetary policy, the entire economic system will continue to accelerate wealth upwards. I am currently working on drafting legislation for an 'American Monetary Act' to address these and other issues in order to protect the economic well being of America.

[Two Americas]

198. what is the "crisis" that needs "fixing?"

The crisis has been going on all along, and is nothing new. It is a teeny percentage of the US population, let alone the world, who have been immune from the ongoing crisis. But those people dominate the national discussion, and so they seem to be much larger than they are. Also they are masters at using that word "we" - I heard Pelosi use it again and again on NPR just now. Who is "we" speaker Pelosi? They want us to believe that the "we" includes all of us, but that is a lie. They will then tell you that if you are not experiencing the good happy life, then you must be at fault somehow. So you see you could be a part of this "we" if only you were more clever - greedy, that is and self-centered - of only you were not a loser. Such a vicious and immoral assault on the people, on all of us.

Here is the only crisis, and it is not a crisis for any of us - the theft is getting so blatant, the conditions for the average person are getting so bad, that the natives were starting to get restless and getting ready to storm the palace. The bail out is not about economics, it is about politics and the political goal is to insulate the privileged ones from the rabble - to shut the door forever on us, to make us all a permanent underclass.

We all know how the status, power, freedom and opportunity for the average person have been steadily eroding. We are very close now to those being gone completely, and gone forever. It will take one more push to finish the job once and for all, and that is what this bail out does. It is a preemptive strike against us, a killing off of any possibility of resistance as the last remnants of our freedom are destroyed.

I think that this dwarfs in importance all of the other assaults on the people combined - war, the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions act, FISA, IWR, NCLB, the bankruptcy bill, the war on terror - combine all of those and they are still not as important as this.

Power and economics - that is what politics is about, not values or any of the rest of that crap. They don't give a shit about choice, for example. Economic domination has always been the goal of the right wingers, the only goal, and everything else - war, torture, detentions, privatization, and all of the rest are all in the service of that goal or they wouldn't exist.

So what if easy credit dries up? We ought not be living on credit anyway, and we are all slaves to credit, enslaved by debt. Who cares if we can't shop 'til we drop?

"People won't be able to get college loans." So f-ing what? College ought to be publicly supported and available to all, not a privilege for the investing class.

"You won't be able to get your money from the ATM." So f-ing what? That means a bank run, that means the bank has stolen and squandered your money. Bailing those f-kers out - subsidizing the thieves, rewarding them - doesn't change that. Don't use the bank, that takes care of the ATM problem. Support your local credit union. Use barter with your friends and neighbors. Stop spending, stop borrowing, stop playing the game. The house always wins the game.

"We will have a depression." Yes, we will. But a bail out doesn't stop that, it just protects the few from a depression, while all of us sink into something much worse than a depression - we most certainly will become peasants living in shacks in a banana republic, or are children or grandchildren will.

"But little people will lose their savings and retirement!" That is right, we will - bail out or no. With the bail out there will be an illusion that things are better, while they are actually worse. People's savings and retirement, their housing, their transportation, their food, their utilities - their f-ing survival - ought not be subject to the free market to begin with, ought not be subject to the whims and desires of the greedy speculators and parasites.

Now I just heard another Democrat on the radio saying that we need a bail out and fast because "I think all of us woke up this morning and look at things, when we looked at the markets, we realized that something needs to be done and fast. It was sobering."

I don't know about you, but I don't "look at the markets" first thing in the morning to see how "we" are doing. Do you? I look at the farm workers around me, at the elderly, at the poor, at the unemployed and under-employed, at the homeless, at the crumbling public infrastructure, the collapsing public schools, at the failing farms, at the struggling small businesses, at the soaring fuel and food prices to see how "we" are doing. All of those problems were caused by the markets, and it is just asking for more of the same - at this late date! - to think that the markets are going to help any of us.

Reagan economics have been completely discredited - if that isn't obvious to people now, I don't know what would ever convince them of that. They have destroyed the country, and that is not hyperbole. Why, for the love of God why, are Democrats defending and promoting them, now - now when the people have overwhelmingly seen through the scam and are turning on the right wing lies and thefts?

[scarletwoman]

210. It's absolutely mind-blowing, isn't it.

Why, for the love of God why, are Democrats defending and promoting them, now - now when the people have overwhelmingly seen through the scam and are turning on the right wing lies and thefts?

Well, if people haven't figured out by now -- after the past 8 years of Democratic caving -- that most of our Democratic politicians are NOT on our side, this really ought to send the point home.

sw

[Politicalboi]

199. I don't like this either but

Money makes the world go round. They should NEVER get all of the 700 Billion all at once. Dole it out.

[scarletwoman]

204. kick -- I'd love to answer every post on this thread, but I'm too busy watching the prez debate.

To all those who posted insulting, patronizing crap -- :P

To all those who posted FEAR FEAR FEAR -- you ought to be ashamed of yourselves for being such cowards.

To all those who actually understand how fucked we already are, thank you.

sw

[madrchsod]

207. "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself"

the sun will rise tomorrow and life will go on....that 700 billion could put a lot of people back to work rebuilding this country instead of bailing out failed business.

[Irish Girl]

209. I agree..

This bailout will not help anything except to fix more golden parachutes onto the criminals responsible for this mess.

It seems to me the real problem is this.

The average American does not understand their own country's monetary policy. The average American is clueless how money is created and what causes inflation. The average American believes we exist in a free market economy.

The Federal Reserve, our central bank, is a private bank run by unelected officials who are not required to be open or accountable to ‘we the people.’ They manipulate this 'free market' through raising and lowering interest rates, which artificially creates boom and bust cycles. And every physical dollar you hold in your hand could not exist unless someone else was in debt that same amount. Our money is created out of debt and if everyone in this country paid off their debt at the same time, our entire currency would collapse.

In this day and age of the Internet, it's inexcusable for Americans to still be so clueless how our financial system works. I suggest going to Google Video and searching for "Money As Debt" or "The Money Masters" to receive some basic understanding on these imperative issues. At this point, your children and grandchildren's future depends on it.

REAL Solutions

1. Abolish the Federal Reserve Central Bank and give the issuance of money back into the hands of the people where it properly belongs as our forefathers intended it to be, and away from the corrupt international bankers.

2. Get rid of this fiat currency created from debt and replace it with a sustainable monetary system. History has proven over and over that fiat currencies are doomed to failure and unfortunately each generation still has to learn the hard way.

This bailout is a bandaid fix to a horribly broken financial system, end of story. The collapse of the dollar is inevitable so when are we as a country going to unite and start actually working toward productive solutions?

I'm going to post the links here though I'm doubtful many will watch them, sigh. And we wonder why these elites laugh at how gullible we are when we're more concerned about what Britney Spears is eating for lunch than the constant looting of our nation.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936&ei=b6DdSNy9BZPYrAKnhcGdCw&q=the+money+masters&hl=en">The Money Masters

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279&ei=P6HdSK3iPJycrALHy9igCw&q=money+as+debt&hl=en">Money As Debt

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

225. Well said, and needed saying -- Kick.

[Douglas Carpenter]

228. THIS IS THE SIMPLE REALITY: Unless there is a deal by the end of next week or sooner - a deal that

is at least grudgingly acceptable to the Democratic Congressional leadership, the Republican Congressional leadership, and the Department of Treasury/Bush Administration - financial liquidity will evaporate and the Markets will crash and the American economy and much of the global economy will descend into deep, deep depression. There is no doubt that any deal that would be effective will cost hundreds of billions of dollars, hopefully it will be repaid some day.

The simple fact is - the massive decline in real estate equity values - has created a massive worldwide withdrawal from the credit markets - this created panic among the markets all over the world - thus triggering the failure of multiple banks and other insurance and investment institutions.

This massive withdraw of credit - removes financial liquidity from the markets and will - basically cause the economy to grind to a halt.

Could this happen anyway even with the bailout? Yes it could. But this buys some time and gives the chance for markets to stabilize.

If some people simply don't want to understand the situation. Then nothing can force them to.

I am not supporting the bailout as a supporter of Wall Street. I got rid of my stocks a long, long time ago. I say this as someone who does not want to see a depression. I say this as a lifelong democratic-socialist who believes humanity is more important than ideology.

I am afraid this is VERY, VERY REAL and anyone following this matter at all knows this and has been anticipating a possible economic meltdown since the massive decline in real estate equity values - has created a massive worldwide withdrawal from the credit markets - this created panic among the markets all over the world - thus triggering the failure of multiple banks and other insurance and investment institutions.

This massive withdraw of credit - removes financial liquidity from the markets and will - basically cause the economy to grind to a halt.

The only shock about the timing - is that the timing is playing out in a way that plays to the benefit of Democrats. It is beyond ludicrous to suggest that the Republicans would intentionally sabotage their own party's chances in the upcoming election and massively discredit their own party's ideological orthodoxy, possibly forever,

Banking and credit survive on the basis of banks loaning to other banks and convincing the credit markets to puchase instruments that will keep credit afloat.

This is all imperaled right now and yes, credit will soon evaporate possibly within days or even hours without a major intervention of some sort.

Anyone who thinks this is just the Bush Administration playing an election game is delusional. I frankly wish it was. There would be a lot less to worry about.

Time really is a factor here. In this computer age it takes only minutes for massive financial changes to occur. I happen to know both anecdotally from acquaintances and from solid economic writing that real panic was spreading all over the world last week - a situation in which total financial liquidity could dry up within hours. If that were to happen the whole thing collapses like a deck of cards within hours. A Singaporean banker I know who works out of the Gulf, personally told me that he took a loss of half a million dollars last week. Because he sees a situation of complete meltdown looming. Could it still happen anyway, even with a bailout? Yes it could. But a bailout would buy some time and might give markets a chance to stabilize.

This is the reality. With a bailout there will be some very negative consequences, especially inflation...and the markets could still collapse.

If there is no bailout. The whole thing collapses within days; well before the election.

I would prefer a bailout that MIGHT prevent a collapse over no bailout that WILL mean a collapse.

[scarletwoman]

234. So, basically what you're saying is there's a collapse coming, probably no matter what happens,

but we should go ahead and put our children and grandchildren and great-grandchilden into massive debt so we can put it off a little longer.

Sorry, no sale.

It's obvious that the current economic system is completely corrupt and unsustainable. It HAS to collapse, it has no structual integrity. The laws of physics trump economic theory; a system with no structural integrity cannot be sustained -- any more than Wile E. Coyote can stay suspended in air after he runs off the edge of the cliff.

You're asking us to severely damage our future prospects for rebuilding something better out of the ashheap of the collapse on some futile attempt to keep Wile E. Coyote suspended in air for just a little longer.

sw

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

236. Exactly right, and exactly what Obama should be saying.

[redqueen]

237. No, not "put it off"... lessen the severity. (nt)

[scarletwoman]

240. How does throwing piles of OUR money into the trunk of the getaway car as the thieves

flee the scene of the crime "lessen the severity"?

All it does is insure that there'll be no money left in the Treasury with which to set up a new "New Deal" when the whole thing comes crashing down, which is essentially inevitable.

sw

[greyghost]

254. Good analogy. The collapse is coming, PERIOD. All the bail out

succeeds in doing is forestalling the inevitable.

Indeed, NO SALE.

[Two Americas]

256. the choice

The bail out passes

We are a banana republic and the fat cats make a fortune and we are all in servitude and poverty ala Latin America. The end of freedom and death of any hope of ever restoring the middle class.

Your kids have no future.

The bail out does not pass

Belt tightening, unemployment, hard times, the end of easy money and the culture of greed and consumption, pulling together and hopefully pulling out if it.

Your kids have a chance at a future.

Either way, we are facing a depression. With a bailout we have a permanent depression - for us, the fat cats will be immune. Think Latin America.

If we don't bail out the fat cats, we have a temporary depression, as in the 30's, and we have a fighting chance.

[greyghost]

257. That is extremely concise and spot on.

[Douglas Carpenter]

279. what I am saying is the severity of the collapse could very well be decreased and perhaps an out and

out collapse might be avoided - it is not really possible to say if it would be avoided, but it might be avoided.

Just as expensive experimental chemotherapy - will definitely have some harmful side-effects and probably only offer a 50/50 chance of full recovery. But it will also almost certainly provide a longer life and remove some of the worst effects of the cancer - and might even produce a genuine recovery.

One thing that is almost for certain, a bailout would almost certainly buy time that might very well allow markets and liquidity to stabilize.

There are some people who seem to have an idea that a collapse and depression would be a good thing because it might lead to some sort of new democratic-socialist order. I would suggest that it would be even more likely that a collapse and a new great depression would be even more likely to lead to an extreme right-wing order such as American has never seen. America simply does not have the socialist tradition of other western democracies - America does not even have the socialist tradition that America once had in the 1930's.

After decades of right-wing indoctrination, it would be a lot more likely that large sectors of America would, rather than blame the capitalist system, blame "the liberal elitist", "the liberal media," "secular-humanism", the immigrants, the Arabs or other "undesirables."

Let us not forget that fascism and Nazism rose to power on the backs of an economic collapse - it is no more a thing to wish for than to wish for a devastating war.

[greyghost]

231. Damn straight!

[blue97keet]

239. please flush the system

Right on. Please tell them to flush the toilet paper out of the system before putting a dime into it. I have money in the markets but I don't care. What use is that if you cannot trust anything. Fix it first by regulation or brute force or duck tape and superglue or anything, anything but big bucks. Imagine our government buying up "credit default swaps" that are designed to pay off big if our whole economy goes belly up! When the democrats and republicans "reach across the aisle" it is usually for the pupose of strangling the rest of us. McCain in the debate last night was all gung-ho about saving these stinking institutions, but Obama held back and did not agressively question any of this nonsense - shame on him! The moderator went on to question the candidates on how to compensate for the cost of the bailout as if it was a done deal. The damage has alreading been done and there is no compensating for it period.

[leftrightwingnut]

242. It will make no difference. The economy is fucked either way.

Saving some of the bigger wall street investors won't make much difference to most of us. If we leave them alone, someone will snap up the bargains. There is a lot of value in the "toxic" loans, most of the loans are good.

In a few months it will be obvious that the average person won't be able to spend much beyond the basics. It will be the worst holiday shopping season in living memory.

If you really want to stop economic disaster, the bail-out has to be for the every day home owner. That's the only way.

[greyghost]

253. Bingo! Bush Co has only succeeded in scaring the uninformed yet

again. This economy is totally fucked and heading for the shitter. The "bail out" only devalues the dollar mor, bringing on double digit/hyper-inflation.

[BlueKansan]

243. So, where did you get your economics doctorate?

Forget all the four letter words. Let's hear your solution. What will you do to stop bank failures? What will you do to encourage market liquidity? How will you ensure homeowners and small businesses will have access to credit? Do you even KNOW how important credit is to our economy?

Let's hear your answers. Rants don't help.

[scarletwoman]

245. Same place you got yours, out of a cracker jack box.

We are being bamboozled. Why should anyone believe anything coming out of the Bush administration?

As for alternative solutions, there are plenty of threads in GD quoting good solid arguments against the bailout from the likes of Stiglitz and Galbraith and many other astute minds. There are plenty of ways to help the economy without throwing taxpaper money at Wall Street.

We are being stampeded into this by the same people who stampeded us into invading Iraq. Why would any sane person take them at their word this time around?

sw

[Two Americas]

251. ROFL

Yes. I got a decoder ring in a cracker jack box, and a decoder ring is exactly what you need to wade through these pro-free markets arguments here.

"Where did you get your economics degree?" That is the exact same argument that people used against the early Labor activists and organizers. And what about the slaves? They had no degrees, so I suppose they weren't qualified to know the difference freedom and bondage.

[scarletwoman]

255. I sure see a lot of people who really DON'T "know the difference between freedom and bondage".

As you (or was it UndergroundPanther?) said in a post above, "the cage door is open". But here we have multiple DUers crying that the cage door needs to be shut again or we're DOOMED!

It's not surprising though. Years ago I tried several times to exhort people to stop using credit cards. I pointed out that using credit cards is supporting the system that is enslaving us. I said that if you were truly sincere in wanting economic justice, in fighting against the system that is killing off the middle class, that giving up your credit cards was a very simple step that would help set a quiet revolution in motion.

Oh, the HORROR! Poster after poster assured me that they paid their balance every month, and thus were not fattening the banker's by having to pay any interest. And then there were the posters who praised all the benefits they accrued by using their credit cards -- free airline miles! Why would anyone want to give up free airline miles?

Nope, the cage is just fine, thank you very much. As long as there's cable TV and free airline miles.

And the Free Marketeers don't even have a coherent argument. If the Free Market is the end all be all, then let the Market stay free. It's a total contradiction to insist that the Free Market has to be protected by a government bailout.

Oh well, I imagine our dear Dem leaders will see to it that we all remain safely in bondage. And the juggernaut of predatory capitalism will roll on...

sw

[G_j]

261. sort of the 'allegory of the cave' scenario

I'm with you.



& there is one thing that continues to bother me. That is the false notion that Democracy and Capitalism go hand in hand.
If anything, Capitalism is the potential cancer that can easily destroy it's host.

[scarletwoman]

267. Oh yes! That's very apt!

I must admit, I had to dig back 40 years into memory for the last time I read Plato back in one of my college philosophy classes. :)

Your point about capitalism and democracy is also spot on. When capitalism is given free reign it becomes the very antithesis of democracy.

When I see people arguing FOR this bailout, what I see is a desperate clinging to capitalism -- even though it's destroying millions of lives, and the very life of the planet earth.

Capitalism is NOT freedom!

sw

[G_j]

271. the US just went through an insane orgy of SUV/gas guzzler production

that alone demonstrates how Capitalism is destroying the planet.

[Two Americas]

263. panther

Panther gets credit for that. As always, brilliant and succinct.

The cage door is open, people.

[undergroundpanther]

273. I have NEVER had a credit card

Ohh my mom, worried about"emergencies,and I was advised called foolish for doing everything by cash or M.O. or once in a while via check card(ATM card).
One day I was out with some friends, they got snookered into getting a store credit card.They handed me an application.I read the damn thing, including the fine print.Than
I saw the interest rates, I looked at my income and my first thought...this is a fucking TRAP!!! No fucking way.Fuck YOU.

My silly friends however had already signed on the dotted line and the plastic was melting in their hot hands.They went up ahead of me. I rolled my eyes and tossed the application back on the table.I said to the dude peddling credit, they might be stupid as shit, but I know a fucking SCAM when I see it, no thanks.
To this day I have NEVER had a credit card.I save up,pay cash or go without.Or Barter.

[scarletwoman]

278. Yup, it most certainly IS a trap.

I'll be 59 years old this November. I've raised two fine children -- mostly as as single mom -- traveled all over the U.S., India, Nepal, and parts of Europe and South America, and now own a little house on 10 acres of land (completely paid off), all without owning a credit card.

I dropped out of the mainstream in the 60s and never looked back. I value my freedom, I refuse to be a slave to the materialist culture -- and I refuse to be a slave to the false promises and illusions of capitalism.

I REFUSE to allow my children to be enslaved by giving over my country's treasure to the predators who are destroying our country and its institutions.

sw

[countryjake]

282. I'm in your club!

As were my parents. Never had one, never wanted one!

[Hulk]

244. Our crazy "go out shopping" country is in debt up to it's neck....

Go shopping....buy, buy, buy. Put it on plastic....take a loan, we NEVER buy houses with cash, and we should move every 3-5 years..to keep the banks and real estate agents sucking our blood.

This country has it's head so far up it's ass, it isn't even funny. It's shameful. How many shiney new cars on the road are paid for? Probably not too many.

We are a nation living with the banks on our backs. The repugs love it. Buy, buy, buy!! Credit, credit, credit. And NOW the whole house is crashing down.

We are a nation of idiots. Our whole capitalistic nature has gone mad, and we buy shit by the truck load we don't need, nor can we afford.

Go America. We are number 1....f*cking morons.

[upi402]

260. lol, there are very few real Dems

Most are foxes in the henhouse.
Watch your tailfeathers, nobody else is. The scant few Dems can't fight the corporatists anymore. I respect the hell out of the real Democrats' tenacity and ethics though, and they're true patriots. I hope history records their work.

[lib2DaBone]

262. No Bailout... think back to 911.......

Bush had this bill on his desk for over a year... which means... he knew about an impending disaster and he did nothing. Sound familiar?.. it should.

[Eric J in MN]

264. Dennis Kucinich says that "re-industrialization"...

...is what the country really needs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ2gnXu7ezA

[scarletwoman]

269. Which ought to be obvious to any thinking person.

It just blows my mind, really. We live in a one of the most resource-rich lands on the whole planet. There's absolutely NO reason why we could not completely provide for all our needs within our own borders.

I can't watch videos on my Flintstones computer, so my apologies if Kucinich already made those points.

Thanks for adding your post to this thread.

sw

[Two Americas]

265. FDR

But the resolute enemy within our gates is ever ready to beat down our words unless in greater courage we will fight for them.

Must read -

Philadelphia is a good city in which to write American history. This is fitting ground on which to reaffirm the faith of our fathers; to pledge ourselves to restore to the people a wider freedom; to give to 1936 as the founders gave to 1776—an American way of life.

That very word freedom, in itself and of necessity, suggests freedom from some restraining power. In 1776 we sought freedom from the tyranny of a political autocracy—from the eighteenth century royalists who held special privileges from the crown. It was to perpetuate their privilege that they governed without the consent of the governed; that they denied the right of free assembly and free speech; that they restricted the worship of God; that they put the average man's property and the average man's life in pawn to the mercenaries of dynastic power; that they regimented the people.

And so it was to win freedom from the tyranny of political autocracy that the American Revolution was fought. That victory gave the business of governing into the hands of the average man, who won the right with his neighbors to make and order his own destiny through his own Government. Political tyranny was wiped out at Philadelphia on July 4, 1776.

Since that struggle, however, man's inventive genius released new forces in our land which reordered the lives of our people.. The age of machinery, of railroads; of steam and electricity; the telegraph and the radio; mass production, mass distribution—all of these combined to bring forward a new civilization and with it a new problem for those who sought to remain free.

For out of this modern civilization economic royalists carved new dynasties. New kingdoms were built upon concentration of control over material things. Through new uses of corporations, banks and securities, new machinery of industry and agriculture, of labor and capital—all undreamed of by the fathers—the whole structure of modern life was impressed into this royal service.

There was no place among this royalty for our many thousands of small business men and merchants who sought to make a worthy use of the American system of initiative and profit. They were no more free than the worker or the farmer. Even honest and progressive-minded men of wealth, aware of their obligation to their generation, could never know just where they fitted into this dynastic scheme of things.

It was natural and perhaps human that the privileged princes of these new economic dynasties, thirsting for power, reached out for control over Government itself. They created a new despotism and wrapped it in the robes of legal sanction. In its service new mercenaries sought to regiment the people, their labor, and their property. And as a result the average man once more confronts the problem that faced the Minute Man.

The hours men and women worked, the wages they received, the conditions of their labor—these had passed beyond the control of the people, and were imposed by this new industrial dictatorship. The savings of the average family, the capital of the small business man, the investments set aside for old age—other people's money—these were tools which the new economic royalty used to dig itself in.

Those who tilled the soil no longer reaped the rewards which were their right. The small measure of their gains was decreed by men in distant cities.

Throughout the Nation, opportunity was limited by monopoly. Individual initiative was crushed in the cogs of a great machine. The field open for free business was more and more restricted. Private enterprise, indeed, became too private. It became privileged enterprise, not free enterprise.

An old English judge once said: "Necessitous men are not free men." Liberty requires opportunity to make a living—a living decent according to the standard of the time, a living which gives man not only enough to live by, but something to live for.

For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality. A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, other people's money, other people's labor—other people's lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.

Against economic tyranny such as this, the American citizen could appeal only to the organized power of Government. The collapse of 1929 showed up the despotism for what it was. The election of 1932 was the people's mandate to end it. Under that mandate it is being ended.

The royalists of the economic order have conceded that political freedom was the business of the Government, but they have maintained that economic slavery was nobody's business. They granted that the Government could protect the citizen in his right to vote, but they denied that the Government could do anything to protect the citizen in his right to work and his right to live.

Today we stand committed to the proposition that freedom is no half-and-half affair. If the average citizen is guaranteed equal opportunity in the polling place, he must have equal opportunity in the market place.

These economic royalists complain that we seek to overthrow the institutions of America. What they really complain of is that we seek to take away their power. Our allegiance to American institutions requires the overthrow of this kind of power. In vain they seek to hide behind the Flag and the Constitution. In their blindness they forget what the Flag and the Constitution stand for. Now, as always, they stand for democracy, not tyranny; for freedom, not subjection; and against a dictatorship by mob rule and the over-privileged alike.

The brave and clear platform adopted by this Convention, to which I heartily subscribe, sets forth that Government in a modern civilization has certain inescapable obligations to its citizens, among which are protection of the family and the home, the establishment of a democracy of opportunity, and aid to those overtaken by disaster.

But the resolute enemy within our gates is ever ready to beat down our words unless in greater courage we will fight for them.

For more than three years we have fought for them. This Convention, in every word and deed, has pledged that that fight will go on.

The defeats and victories of these years have given to us as a people a new understanding of our Government and of ourselves. Never since the early days of the New England town meeting have the affairs of Government been so widely discussed and so clearly appreciated. It has been brought home to us that the only effective guide for the safety of this most worldly of worlds, the greatest guide of all, is moral principle.

We do not see faith, hope and charity as unattainable ideals, but we use them as stout supports of a Nation fighting the fight for freedom in a modern civilization.

Faith— in the soundness of democracy in the midst of dictatorships.

Hope—renewed because we know so well the progress we have made.

Charity— in the true spirit of that grand old word. For charity literally translated from the original means love, the love that understands, that does not merely share the wealth of the giver, but in true sympathy and wisdom helps men to help themselves.

We seek not merely to make Government a mechanical implement, but to give it the vibrant personal character that is the very embodiment of human charity.

We are poor indeed if this Nation cannot afford to lift from every recess of American life the dread fear of the unemployed that they are not needed in the world. We cannot afford to accumulate a deficit in the books of human fortitude.

In the place of the palace of privilege we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity.

Franklin D. Roosevelt
Acceptance Speech for the Renomination for the Presidency, Philadelphia, Pa.
June 27, 1936
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/print.php?pid=15314

In the place of the palace of privilege we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity.

[scarletwoman]

266. Wow! These same words are just as true for these times as they were back then.

Thank you for posting this!

It has been brought home to us that the only effective guide for the safety of this most worldly of worlds, the greatest guide of all, is moral principle.

Where are our leaders with moral principle? Certainly not Pelosi or Reid. They will sell us down the river to protect their true masters, the "economic royalists" whom FDR refers to in this speech.

sw

[Two Americas]

268. I am very grateful to you

You screamed out loud and clear and cut through the fog. You have done us all a great service. Don't ever doubt that. Don't ever doubt that words matter and that you matter. We are bombarded from all directions - we are told that "words are cheap" and that we are nobodies who do not matter. You matter. Your words matter. We matter. What we say matters. Our words can save lives. Our words can release people from servitude.

"The enemy is ever ready to beat down our words unless in greater courage we will fight for them." Our words. That is what they fear.

I think this is the real thing, and I don't think it is going away. This is the tomorrow we have been dreading. It is here.

We all know, if we are honest about it, that the whole system was a hollow shell and the foundation is long gone. But so long as money was flowing, and real estate was up! up! up! we were supposed to ignore the fact that everything was in shambles, that wages were falling, that freedom was dying, and life was getting harder and harder and more and more miserable. Let the good times roll!

But we now know that credit - the source of the cash flowing - and housing prices - the source of the illusion of personal wealth and prosperity - was all a scam. There is nothing there. The cupboard is not only bare, there is no way to refill it without rebuilding the country from the ground up. The longer we deny it, the harder things are going to be.

[scarletwoman]

270. It's funny, Thursday night when I made my post, I figured it would just sink away

after maybe a few replies.

My mother just died on Sunday Sept. 14, her funeral was Thursday Sept. 18. Last weekend I was just a wreck, sort of half paying attention to the news. I logged on to DU, just to distract myself from grieving. And there was this bailout thing coming out...

Through my mental fog I watched as all these people insisted that this was ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY OR WE ARE DOOMED! And I thought, "Huh?"

My mother grew up during the Great Depression, and she never stopped taking great care not to waste anything, not to covet more stuff than she actually needed, and to value principles over materialism.

I wrote and spoke the eulogy at her funeral, and as I gathered my thoughts to compose it, what arose most strongly in mind was the example she set of living an ethical life, and how my whole being was shaped by those ethics.

Lying, cheating, stealing -- all utterly abhorrant and unthinkable. If a cashier gives me too much change for a purchase, I don't even have to think about it, I immediately give it back. It's so ingrained in me as to be instinctive.

I don't own a credit card because I was taught to save for what I want, to only buy what I can afford. I put money away for two years in order to be able to buy this computer I'm typing at -- I paid cash.

Sorry for rambling... I'm still in an heightened emotional state.

What I'm trying to say (I think) is that the combination of my mother's death and the utter absurdity of the current state of our political and economic systems just sort of pushed me over the edge Thursday night. If my screaming out has been useful, then I'm humbly grateful.

We CANNOT be silent when we are all being violated. To be silent is to be complicit.

sw

[Two Americas]

272. so sorry to hear this

My heart is with you tonight.

[scarletwoman]

275. Thank you.

I'm a little embarrassed, I usually don't post anything about my personal life. I just wanted to give my mother credit for raising me the way she did. If I can do any good in this world, I'm doing it in her honor.

sw

[undergroundpanther]

274. Hugs to you your voice is mighty

and my heart goes out to you.I know your mother would be proud of everything you have said here.

[scarletwoman]

277. It is our voices raised together that is mighty. You are one of the most tireless fighters on DU.

I'm honored to fight alongside you.

sw

[undergroundpanther]

284. I'm honored as well

to fight along side you too.
Rawr.


Anyway us true blues with hearts that beat warm blood and bleed for the ones suffering,We must never give up our fight or our voices no matter how many arrows the fucking heartless ones shoot at us.We got something on our side they'll never have,the truth.If we give up, stop fighting,and shut up,the truth will perish and so will wisdom,freedom and justice.
My conscience demands no less of me than to defend the truth and all the ideals dear to me ,and those who fight alongside me until my last breath..The day I fail to do this I am a bystander,perpetrator who lets innocents be hurt or hurts them directly, or an enabler and being these things revolts me to my core.I decided what matters most to me long before I ever came onto DU.

[countryjake]

283. That strength comes shining thru...

in this topic of yours and I send along my sympathies for the grief you must be feeling now.

You've done your mama proud, scarletwoman, and you've taken a great stand in this post!

[balantz]

276. Kick! n/t

[TBF]

280. Enthusiastic K&R

You are absolutely correct on this & I wanted to pass along my sympathies regarding your mom. Stay strong. We are with you.

[scarletwoman]

285. Thank you. Our strength is in our numbers. We must always remember that.

Thank you for adding your own strength.

sw

[bridgit]

281. That seems pretty much the view of house republicans too

There will be a 'so-called bailout' however (I do favor the doling out in much smaller, regulated performance/merit based drips & drabs, like feeding pigeons in the park I want to see them hop & peck for it). While I want to see the perpetrators of all things nefarious, this collapse included, turned round on a rotisserie a couple times; I'm in no position to decree the legs be cut out from under honorable people caught up in this mess that will suffer the effects of credit drying up cause I live in a house fully paid for, or sit atop vast holdings in a credit union and so am able to ride out such a malady.

My husband and I are IC's, we don't own a house paid for or otherwise. We don't need any more access to credit than is required for extended hotel stays and rental vehicles *and* agreed to in advance by contract.

Maybe that was what was missing all along. An actionable understanding of what the future is and what it means; what the breach of that understanding really looks like.

[scarletwoman]

286. Just so you know, my "vast holdings" in my credit union amount to $1,500.61.

I just filled my propane tank (pre-paid), so I could probably last out a couple months or so of winter (depending on the temperature) here in northern Minnesota on my "vast holdings", coupled with my pantry stocked with canned goods, dry beans, and rice.

On the other hand, I don't have a well so I have to my haul my water from a free spigot in a small town 9 miles away. If I can't get gas for my car, I won't be able to haul water -- but at least in winter I can melt snow. Which is something I had to do a lot last winter, when the free spigot froze up for 4 months.

I'm not without sympathy for those who might find their lifestyles severely constrained. I've been living a severely constrained lifestyle for a couple decades -- albeit voluntarily -- so I know the difficulties it entails.

I will tell you this, I do NOT want my children to be enslaved in a corporate-neo-feudal empire. If our government keeps enabling the Owner Class, that's what our Republic will devolve to.

sw

[Two Americas]

288. the reason for that

The constituents of the Republican representatives are flooding their offices with calls and email, and are 100-1 saying "no!" to any bail out. They can't safely ignore that if they want to get re-elected.

[dailykoff]

287. Meanwhile, Nancy and friends are "working hard" to make sure we eat 700 B

of Wall Street's just desserts.. oh you're such a hard little worker Nancy, we're all so proud of your eagerness to fuck us all over whenever Rham and Steny yank your chain.

:mad:

[Two Americas]

289. the greatest of these is charity

The homeless must be housed FIRST.

The sick must be taken care of FIRST.

The children in poverty must be helped FIRST.

The unemployed and the under-employed and the underpaid must be helped FIRST.

The left behind, the forgotten, the abused, and the suffering must be taken care of FIRST.

We must speak for those who have no voice. We must be that voice.

We can no longer accept the argument that we will first serve those who have the most privilege and power, and then later after we take care of them - their needs are an emergency, we are told - we will get to those who are suffering the most. We have been promised that too many times. Those sent to the back of the line die at the end of the line. Those at the front of the line get more and more, and it never trickles down.

We do not see faith, hope and charity as unattainable ideals, but we use them as stout supports of a Nation fighting the fight for freedom in a modern civilization.

Faith — in the soundness of democracy in the midst of dictatorships.

Hope — renewed because we know so well the progress we have made.

Charity — in the true spirit of that grand old word. For charity literally translated from the original means love, the love that understands, that does not merely share the wealth of the giver, but in true sympathy and wisdom helps men to help themselves.

We seek not merely to make Government a mechanical implement, but to give it the vibrant personal character that is the very embodiment of human charity.

We are poor indeed if this Nation cannot afford to lift from every recess of American life the dread fear of the unemployed that they are not needed in the world. We cannot afford to accumulate a deficit in the books of human fortitude.

In the place of the palace of privilege we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt

Let us resolve ourselves to recognize that we have built a palace of privilege, at terrible human cost, and nave the courage to commit ourselves today - FIRST - to build that temple of faith and hope and charity.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

For now we see through a a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Our ATMs, our credit lines, our mortgage, our gadgets, our credit rating, our investments, our vacations - these are childish things so long as there are those among us suffering and struggling, neglected and forgotten, abused and ridiculed, so long as the price for these things is measured in unthinkable human misery, cruelty, selfishness and greed.

We cannot see everything clearly now, but we can see what is right, what is important and what endures and abides, and we can honor that and act on that. Faith, hope, and above all - charity.

Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.

FDR

Yet now we are being asked to tax the least fortunate among us, and innocent people - our children and our grandchildren for decades to come - so that we can help those who are the most fortunate.

Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.

FDR

Yet we are cruel, and we do call it "tough."

It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

FDR

Which voices will we heed?

The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much it is whether we provide enough for those who have little.

FDR

We are being told once again, that by adding more to the abundance of those that have much, this will somehow help those who have little. Has there ever been a greater lie? Can we live that lie any longer without becoming so jaded and corrupted ourselves that all the joy in life is destroyed?

We are being told that we must give to those who have much, or those with little will be even worse off yet. But does not all of the evidence scream at us that this is also a lie?

In our personal ambitions we are individualists. But in our seeking for economic and political progress as a nation, we all go up or else all go down as one people.

FDR

We all go up together, or we will surely all go down.

It is a sobering thing, my friends, to be a servant of this great cause. We try in our daily work to remember that the cause belongs not to us, but to the people. The standard is not in the hands of you and me alone. It is carried by America. We seek daily to profit from experience, to learn to do better as our task proceeds.

Governments can err, Presidents do make mistakes, but the immortal Dante tells us that divine justice weighs the sins of the cold-blooded and the sins of the warm-hearted in different scales.

Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference.

There is a mysterious cycle in human events. To some generations much is given. Of other generations much is expected. This generation of Americans has a rendezvous with destiny.

In this world of ours in other lands, there are some people, who, in times past, have lived and fought for freedom, and seem to have grown too weary to carry on the fight. They have sold their heritage of freedom for the illusion of a living. They have yielded their democracy.

I believe in my heart that only our success can stir their ancient hope. They begin to know that here in America we are waging a great and successful war. It is not alone a war against want and destitution and economic demoralization. It is more than that; it is a war for the survival of democracy. We are fighting to save a great and precious form of government for ourselves and for the world.

I accept the commission you have tendered me. I join with you. I am enlisted for the duration of the war.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt

There is a mysterious cycle in human events, and about every 40 years another generation is called to pick up the torch and fight for freedom and justice, and heed the dictates of self-sacrifice, duty and honor. 40 years ago we fought for civil rights and to end an immoral war. 80 years ago we fought for the New Deal. 120 years ago we fought for the Labor movement against the tyranny of the robber barons. 160 years ago we fought for Abolition and to end human bondage.

Let's be honest with ourselves now, finally. We have sold our heritage of freedom for the illusion of a living, and we are being asked to do that again, perhaps forever this time.

Have we been sobered yet by events? Can we put away childish things; childish fears, childish wishes, childish illusions? Are we to be counted among the warm-hearted, or the cold-blooded?

What will it take to stir the ancient hope?

Will we join now? Will we enlist now for the duration?

[LBJDemocrat]

292. Backstabbed by our own party.

What else is new?