Who suffered the most through the Great Depression? The wealthiest?

[pnwmom]

Obviously, not.

Don't kid yourself. If the economy falls apart and we have a major recession -- or, God forbid, another Great Depression -- it will touch each and every one of us. And the most vulnerable will be hurt the worst.

I'm not AT ALL advocating for Paulson's plan. But the people who say that we shouldn't do anything, that we should just let the crash happen, are either heartless or sadly ignorant.

Fortunately, Obama is not among them.

[RoyGBiv]

1. There's another option ...

Many people, I think, are in a deep state of denial. It's not ignorance, per se. The vast majority of us are ignorant of what surviving through such times will really require -- how much will change -- and we're certainly not prepared for it.

I think many people are simply hoping against hope that this whole thing is just a plot of some sort. To be sure, what happened last night and today among Congressional Republicans and the McCain campaign is a plot of sorts, but that doesn't mitigate the very real crisis situation in which we find ourselves.

As another DUer said, we may not have started this fire, but we will surely burn.

And we don't want to believe that.

[RedLetterRev]

21. I'd say that 99% of folks out walking around are absolutely not prepared

for a true Depression. As one who was raised by grandparents who went through the Depression in Appalachia (a double-whammy), whose mother didn't see any economic light until she was in her 30s and myself who grew up with a far greater understanding than most of what it takes to survive truly hard times, I think I have some unique insight. For example, the house that I grew up in didn't even have electricity until 5 years before I was born, and I'm only 51. That's how far-reaching a depression can be in the most depressed areas of the country and how long it takes a nation to recover.

It's not like a little recession where you can't buy beer and popcorn for a couple of weeks. It's not like college where you eat ramen noodles for a few years then that's over. We're talking decades. The rest of our lives, for probably 60-75% of DU readers. Probably half of their children's lives. Probably on into their children's lives. That's how many generations the last Great Depression touched: my grandparents, my parents, and me.

People don't realize what will happen if the grocery stores close and trucks can't roll to supply clothes and durable goods. What if you have to make or make up 90% of what little you do have. What if you have to grow your own food? Do you know how much land that takes? (Figure at the very most efficiently you can use it a dead minimum of 2-1/2 acres per person, in use year round with summer and winter crops.) Do you have that much land? If you don't, how will you eat? If you don't have money, how will you barter? Those of us who have enough land to support ourselves won't let our produce go for free and we'll liable fill you with lead for attempting to "liberate" it.

Trust me on that one. But we will be willing to trade. What have you of value? People won't want watches or jewelry or cars. You can't eat those. In hard times, those are worthless.

Where will you get shoes if you don't know how to make them? If there's no money to buy them, what will you do in the winter? If there's no money for oil or natural gas or coal, how will you stay warm? How will you stay in your home if there's no job? If there's a Great Depression, odds are pretty certain you won't have one. Can you and your family survive a winter with no shelter?

How will you clothe your body? No K-Mart, no Wally World and certainly no upper-crust brand stores: no Needless Markup, no Loud and Tacky (Nieman-Marcus and Lord and Taylor for the non-gay readers). A great depression will collapse nearly every chain there is. If you don't have it now, you won't have a new one of it for a few decades if there is a Great Depression. Take a look at the last one. I did; I heard about it every day growing up.

Those who have an economic death wish had realllllllllllly better think twice.

I personally believe that a depression is all-but inevitable and have a deep sense of dread and horror about it. But I am probably better prepared, mentally and situationally, than probably 95% of Americans. I pray daily that America never, ever faces such a horror as another Great Depression. Those who secretly wish for it have no -- absolutely zero -- idea that they are wishing for their own slow death.

[crazylikafox]

24. Thank u for giving this some perspective.

As one who also had two parents who grew up in Appalachia in the depression, I'm really terrified about what can happen. I've heard those stories too. People of the past few generations have no clue what it would be like.

As an example, I just heard this morning that TODAY farmers have not been able to get the credit they need to buy fertilizer. Gee, what happens when they need to buy seed to plant in the spring. Can you say Food Supply folks? Yikes!

[Eric J in MN]

2. How about Congress waits until after Obama is president...

...to pass more major legislation?

[WillowTree]

3. You assume that the economy has that long to wait.

You're most likely wrong.

[Eric J in MN]

5. Did you believe last month that the economy would collapse...

...before January?

[pnwmom]

11. Actually, September-October has always been a very vulnerable time

in the stock market.

I don't know the reasons for this, but historians could tell you. So in that sense, the sudden drops we had last week -- which were only halted when Paulson announced his plan -- were predictable.

There is a domino effect to all of this, just as there is with global warming. If we let this go till January, we may have gotten past the point of no return.

[provis99]

4. $700 billion is drops in the bucket; nothing but a payout to CEOs in Bermuda

the entire derivatives market in the world is currently collapsing due to this giant pyramid scheme of mortgage packaging; the one QUADRILLION dollar derivative market. Anyone got 10,000 billion dollars to shore that sinking ship up?

[knowbody0]

6. we have no choice but to invade Bermuda

[TahitiNut]

9. I'll volunteer for the Grand Cayman Expeditionary Force. (Good scuba diving there.)

:evilgrin:

My audit and IT/MIS and banking experience can be useful ... when I'm not diving. :silly:

[knowbody0]

18. as a former mortgage banking accountant

I could sell mortgage backed securities and cook the books

[MichaelHarris]

7. I think

a lot of people are misunderstanding what some on DU are saying. Doing nothing would be wrong, doing something unwise would be worse.

What I mean by that can be summed up in two words; oversite and return. There has to be ovesite and control on the corporations who take this money. If they show a profit there has to be a return for the American people. The problem America has right now? We don't have a manager and won't until November.

[pnwmom]

13. I agree with your approach (oversight and return), but I disagree

on what some people here are saying. Many people here are clearly expressing the thought that there should be no action taken at all -- that we should just let the market collapse and deal with the consequences.

[snot]

8. Here's my solution.

We don't have to write any new legislation that no one's had a chance to review. We simply repeal the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act, the law enacted after the crash of 1929 that was carefully designed to protect against exactly this kind of meltdown and that worked just fine until the Republicons repealed it, and make it apply to all kinds of depositaries without exception.

[BzaDem]

10. If that's the only thing that passes, there wont' be depositaries left to be affected.

[snot]

16. do you mean, 'cause they'd all have to divest their investment biz's?

could we give them some time to do that?

[OHdem10]

12. The Poor and Working Class. suffered most.

Some Rich lost just about everything.

[TahitiNut]

14. Seniors suffered the most. But that was before Social Security, too.

There ARE a couple of New Deal programs that're still in place. People on fixed incomes suffer in INFLATIONARY times, not DEFLATIONARY times. If the Fed starts up the printing presses, we're all f*cked.

[dweller]

15. i'd venture

the wealthiest suffer greatly maintaining their illusions of self importance.

much more than i would subject myself to under any circumstance.
dp

[On the Road]

17. You Don't Have to Bother

There is a deep, deep economic death wish on this board which will not be satisfied until we actually do get a depression.

[rucky]

19. It should be the Government's primary job...

to provide a safety net to ensure everyone has adequate food, housing, healthcare, safety & education.

It is NOT the government's primary job to protect wealth, yet we seem to spend a disproportionate amount of cash on just that - while neglecting the basics.

If we properly funded our social programs, and the infrastructure were there to provide expanded services with expanded funding in times of crisis, would we even be having this discussion?

[Taverner]

20. There are Neo-Leninists out here who think if the market crashes, the workers will rise up

Storm the gates of the White House and bring about the glorious Dictatorship of the Proletariat!

:eyes:

[Mind_your_head]

22. Well, the ones who jumped outta the windows sure got hurt a bunch n/t

[bean fidhleir]

23. That's a myth, according to researchers.

Only one person is known to have killed himself by jumping out a window, but Winston Churchill reported it so that might be the origin of the myth.

[onenote]

25. On the other hand, there is substantial evidence that suicide increased during the Great Depression

See chart on page 75:

http://www.pitt.edu/~tjs/vio/newvio7.pdf

[DeschutesRiver]

26. I watched a documentary on the Kennedy clan

at one point in the film, they showed old black and white video of the clan enjoying some time in the pool at a compound. Complete with maids/servers bringing them drinks. A beautiful day, people splashing and enjoying themselves like they didn't have a care in the world. The very picture of a life well lived amidst prospersity. Nothing wrong with that.

But the person speaking on the documentary while that clip was playing, after describing the lifestyle, went on to quote one of the Kennedays, who said no, we had no idea there was a depression going on. The Kennedy wasn't being a snoot, wasn't clueless really, just saying it had no impact whatsoever on our daily lives.

I use this example because I admire the Kennedys, but I remember being a bit taken back at actually seeing people having real fun and frolicing and having all the extra lovely things in life, while others were living in tents and just wanted to work so badly.

A woman stopped and chatted with me as I was buying canning supplies - I live remote, she was elderly and lived so much more remotely that I didn't think there were still people in that part of the county. Modest sized town, too, and still no cell phone service there, anywhere. She recalled during the depression how they did okay because frankly, they'd had some farmland, and they'd never had two nickels to buy from others anyway, so they just made do. She did remember that her mom took out milk cans filled with cream from their cows to the nearest road, where they seen men walking daily, heading for the lastest rumor of a job that they could hold for a day or two to prevent their kids from starving. She said she never forgot watching them pay a small amount for a sip of that cream, sucking it back like pop, all dusty and tired looking. This was in Oregon.

There probably isn't any way to know who will be hit most, I mean this women's life didn't change a whit cause they'd always worked their farm and asses off to make it, that was their job, and so in a way, it continued on. I imagine if you have old wealth, you still got it unless your trust fund kids have blown it. I imagine if you are already poor, how is this going to change your lifestyle?

Middle class? Whap,whap,whap....

ETA: the elderly woman incident was at the start of summer. She encouraged me to can, said it was no big deal, she'd done it all her life, and that she knew the signs of a GD coming, and she knew she'd be living through another one now shortly. Thought one had been entirely enough, but it left with the ability to read the tea leaves on this.

[alarimer]

27. There should be no bailout without promises of reregulation.

It was deregulation that got us here; it will be regulation that prevents such a thing from happening again.
These rich assholes should not be rewarded for screwing us over as they will always do without controls in place. I want Congress to call for a new New Deal that reins in the speculation. And we deserve some return on our money. Whatever we give needs to be paid back eventually. This should be no free ride. People need to go to prison for this and they need to lose the golden parachutes.

[slackmaster]

28. Farmers who were unfortunate enough to be affected by the Dust Bowl

[Disturbed]

29. I like this plan.

Senator Bernie Sanders

The current financial crisis facing our country has been caused by the extreme right-wing economic policies pursued by the Bush administration. These policies, which include huge tax breaks for the rich, unfettered free trade and the wholesale deregulation of commerce, have resulted in a massive redistribution of wealth from the middle class to the very wealthy.

The middle class has really been under assault. Since President Bush has been in office, nearly 6 million Americans have slipped into poverty, median family income for working Americans has declined by more than $2,000, more than 7 million Americans have lost their health insurance, over 4 million have lost their pensions, foreclosures are at an all time high, total consumer debt has more than doubled, and we have a national debt of over $9.7 trillion dollars.

While the middle class collapses, the richest people in this country have made out like bandits and have not had it so good since the 1920s. The top 0.1 percent now earn more money than the bottom 50 percent of Americans, and the top 1 percent own more wealth than the bottom 90 percent. The wealthiest 400 people in our country saw their wealth increase by $670 billion while Bush has been president. In the midst of all of this, Bush lowered taxes on the very rich so that they are paying lower income tax rates than teachers, police officers or nurses.

Now, having mismanaged the economy for eight years as well as having lied about our situation by continually insisting, “The fundamentals of our economy are strong,” the Bush administration, six weeks before an election, wants the middle class of this country to spend many hundreds of billions on a bailout. The wealthiest people, who have benefited from Bush’s policies and are in the best position to pay, are being asked for no sacrifice at all. This is absurd. This is the most extreme example that I can recall of socialism for the rich and free enterprise for the poor.

In my view, we need to go forward in addressing this financial crisis by insisting on four basic principles:

(1) The people who can best afford to pay and the people who have benefited most from Bush’s economic policies are the people who should provide the funds for the bailout. It would be immoral to ask the middle class, the people whose standard of living has declined under Bush, to pay for this bailout while the rich, once again, avoid their responsibilities. Further, if the government is going to save companies from bankruptcy, the taxpayers of this country should be rewarded for assuming the risk by sharing in the gains that result from this government bailout.

Specifically, to pay for the bailout, which is estimated to cost up to $1 trillion, the government should:

a) Impose a five-year, 10 percent surtax on income over $1 million a year for couples and over $500,000 for single taxpayers. That would raise more than $300 billion in revenue;

b) Ensure that assets purchased from banks are realistically discounted so companies are not rewarded for their risky behavior and taxpayers can recover the amount they paid for them; and

c) Require that taxpayers receive equity stakes in the bailed-out companies so that the assumption of risk is rewarded when companies’ stock goes up.

(2) There must be a major economic recovery package which puts Americans to work at decent wages. Among many other areas, we can create millions of jobs rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure and moving our country from fossil fuels to energy efficiency and sustainable energy. Further, we must protect working families from the difficult times they are experiencing. We must ensure that every child has health insurance and that every American has access to quality health and dental care, that families can send their children to college, that seniors are not allowed to go without heat in the winter, and that no American goes to bed hungry.

(3) Legislation must be passed which undoes the damage caused by excessive de-regulation. That means reinstalling the regulatory firewalls that were ripped down in 1999. That means re-regulating the energy markets so that we never again see the rampant speculation in oil that helped drive up prices. That means regulating or abolishing various financial instruments that have created the enormous shadow banking system that is at the heart of the collapse of AIG and the financial services meltdown.

(4) We must end the danger posed by companies that are “too big to fail,” that is, companies whose failure would cause systemic harm to the U.S. economy. If a company is too big to fail, it is too big to exist. We need to determine which companies fall in this category and then break them up. Right now, for example, the Bank of America, the nation’s largest depository institution, has absorbed Countrywide, the nation’s largest mortgage lender, and Merrill Lynch, the nation’s largest brokerage house. We should not be trying to solve the current financial crisis by creating even larger, more powerful institutions. Their failure could cause even more harm to the entire economy.

[tilsammans]

30. Excellent!

I heart Bernie Sanders!

:yourock:

Thanks for posting.