"War based on lies" is about the stupidest f*cking term I've ever heard.

[Richardo]

I think anyone could make the case that ALL wars of aggression are "based on lies". How else could a regime get a populace psyched up enough to leave their jobs and farms to go get themselves killed?

(Note I am NOT talking about defensive wars.)

SO: It's redundant - and childish: it sounds like it's straight from a 3rd grade tattle-tale.

[Lerkfish]

1. your concern is duly noted.

But I have larger issues on my plate at the moment.

[Richardo]

11. It's not concern, it's contempt.

...but I understand your point. :patriot:

[rockymountaindem]

2. Hmmmm... I have to disagree with you there

Take WWI. That was not really a war based on lies, although clearly it was a war of aggression. It was very popular in most of the countries which participated, and besides, the governments of Austria-Hungary and Imperial Germany didn't have to lie to their people. They could just tell them to do what the government wanted. That's the same for Russia, although there the population was largely in favor of the war. Interestingly, 1914 and 1915 were good years for the Tsar's popularity. After sliding for basically every year of the 20th century, the population's opinion of the Tsar went way up when he demonstrated a commitment to defend Russia's sacred national honor.

[wtmusic]

13. It was a war of little fibs

about war being eventually necessary anyway, so we might as well get it over with. It's interesting that although the UN Charter is clear about what justifies military action, very little has changed since 1914.

"Franz Conrad Von Hotzendorf, Moltke's equivalent in Vienna and a social Darwinist, argued that states were either rising or declining and that they fought each other as they struggled to survive. 'Policy is nothing other than one form of the great struggle for existence. What follows is the need to recognise an unavoidable enemy (wtmusic - sound familiar?) at the right time and defend against him at the right time.' The argument was particularly powerful for policymaking in Autria-Hungary, a multinational empire on perpetual notice as to its future in an era of national self-determination. Conrad, therefore, concluded that war should be undertaken preventively: 'policy consists precisely of applying war as method.'"

http://books.google.com/books?id=9XhpuXKhcVIC&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=justification+world+war+1+germany&source=web&ots=6JCoaHY8S_&sig=4AzdH8bHFSAkOi1BvvNfBTpKQbk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPA31,M1

[Lex]

3. It's an apt phrase.

nt

[peace13]

4. It 's funny that the term 'War based on lies' angers you.

I am angered by politicians who tell lies to the people in order to get the war that they want. Hence the term, 'War based on lies'. Go figure.

[The_Casual_Observer]

5. You mean like the lies that powell dutifully repeated at the UN ?

[RaleighNCDUer]

6. That's just the point. They PRESENTED it as a defensive war -

we gotta get them cuz they're coming for us - LOOK AT WHAT THEY DID TO THE WTC!

Saying it is a war based on lies directly attacks their 'rationale' for the war, because we all know that Iraq had nothing to do with the 'war on terror'.

[DireStrike]

7. So what is a better way to distinguish good from bad wars

...as seen by American voters?

Unnecessary war? War of aggression? War for oil?

I'm sure you have semantics issues with all of those as well.

I just don't see how you plan to express the nature of the war to others who may not believe it is based on lies. Do you think everyone already realizes that this war was based on lies? Do you think everyone even recognizes it as a war of aggression? Or that everyone even agrees that all wars of aggression are lie-based?

Perhaps "War of aggression, based on lies" would be redundant in a very limited context, among those who think much like you and me. But to most people, these are adjective phrases that add new meaning to what you're saying.

[Richardo]

9. It's trite

The tragic consequences are much more serious than the schoolyard taunt can communicate.

[DireStrike]

14. Communicating the consequences of war in words almost always comes across as patronizing.

I don't need to communicate the cost to those whose minds I might be able to change. I need to tell them why this war was not necessary.

But all of this is really moot by now... everyone's already made up their minds, as far as I can tell.

[KG]

8. heck yeah.

'based on lies' is redundant after the word 'war'.

[Richardo]

10. It's as overused as 'war criminal', 'fascist', 'genocide' and all the other hyperbole on this board

When you consistently apply the term 'fascist' to 3rd rate politicians in the US, it is sapped of all meaning. It becomes white noise.

And it dishonors those who have really suffered under war criminals, fascists, and genocide.

[DireStrike]

15. Agree, "fascist" and "genocide" are overused.

War Criminal is slightly overused. Usually this statement is harder to make because everyone, believers included, are prodded to say "what law did he break?" Some people think they can get away with broad citations - "The Geneva Convention!" but it's a weak argument that's self-defeating unless you can back it up. It tends to limit itself because of that.

[Jed Dilligan]

18. Which fascists do you consider first-rate?

[Mari333]

19. I call em as I see em.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

http://www.icasualties.org/oif/Default.aspx

[El Pinko]

12. It's not half as stupid as "War on Terror"

...or "War on Drugs", for that matter.

[devilgrrl]

16. The war in Iraq is based on lies - deal with it.

:popcorn:

[4lbs]

17. The Vietnam War was originally presented as a defensive war and then shown later to be a lie.

Remember that whole supposed Gulf of Tonkin incident? The (now questionable) report that US Navy ships were fired upon by North Vietnamese (ironically called the "Democratic Republic of Vietnam") and Communist entities.

That was the main rational for sending U.S. troops into Vietnam. The (now heavily disputed claim) that US Navy ships were surprise attacked in two separate incidents.

It wasn't until years after the U.S. ended it's involvement in Vietnam that the truth was known. The Gulf of Tonkin report that led to the Congressional resolution authorizing troops had been falsified.

[hfojvt]

20. here are some phrases I consider to be more stupid

Saddam has WMD
Saddam has ties to al quaida
Saddam attacked us on 9/11
support the troops
war on terra
across the board tax cuts
death tax
Joe sixpack
drill baby drill
tax cuts to increase revenue
Apocalypse now

So even though it's doubly redundant, I don't see how it even makes the top ten of stupid phrases. Most people don't like being lied to

[rucky]

21. What would you prefer?

[Blue_Tires]

22. war based on manufactured evidence?

war based on misleading reasons and motives?

war based on theft, imperial expansion and resource consolidation?

war based on attacking a country who didn't attack us?

war based on shadowy deception?

pick one or any combination of the above