Some of us still don't get it.

[smoogatz]

Powell just drove a big, fat wedge down the middle of the Republican party. He did what no moderate Republican has done in recent memory: he called out the party's right wing and pretty much called them racist assholes to their faces. He also conflated McCain and his campaign with the party's hard-right nutball faction: a stunning indictment, coming from one of the party's revered elder warrior-statesmen. Say what you will about Powell (and yes, I think he's culpable as hell), but this is a stinging rebuke to the Republican party, and a resounding slap in the face to McCain. For that, I applaud Colin Powell.

[Subdivisions]

1. There are still thousands of deaths that can't be reconciled. n/t

[skooooo]

3. You can say that about anything.

There wasn't one fricking thing that Powell could have done to stop that war, and you know it.

[rug]

19. Not one thing?

How about he quit instead of rhapsodizing before the world about the necessity of invading an uninvolved country?

[uppityperson]

22. Do you believe that would have stopped mrbush?

[rug]

24. Not by itself. But it would have gone a long way to stiffening resistance.

As it is, he sold the war to the "undecideds".

[skooooo]

25. No, he would have been called a "disgruntled" former employee..

...just like everyone else who tried to oppose Bush.

[rug]

32. Far better to advocate the deaths of thousands than be called disgruntled by Bush.

[uppityperson]

26. I loath Powell for that presentation, he should be ashamed of what he did. I also think

that mrbushandhisevilminions would have attacked anyway, found someone else to do the presentation and done what they wanted anyway. But I agree about Mr.Powell swaying undecideds.

Realize that one of the reasons Mr.Powell's presentation went over so hard was because he was held in high esteem since what he had done up until then was serve as a moderating force in that administration.

This is NOT to absolve him of cupability in all the trauma and deaths and pain since that speech. Not at all. It is only to say that he also is capable of positive acts. And endorsing Obama, getting more support for Obama both pre AND post election, that is positive. If he can get more support for Obama after he is elected, it will be more likely that Obama will be able to get more positive stuff done during his term.

[bertman]

48. What is being forgotten here is that Powell's decision to go along, for whatever reasons,

was a HUGE factor in persuading a lot of Democrats, and some very powerful Republicans, to BELIEVE WHAT BUSH WAS SAYING about Iraq.

Remember that Colin Powell was the single most powerful cabinet member, the Secretary of State. If Powell had resigned his post and said that he did not see the evidence as being conclusive of a need to invade Iraq, that defiant act would very likely have stopped the invasion. No longer would the Democrats have had the "cover" they needed to stand silently by while Bush invaded a sovereign nation.

One must remember that the country was still in the throes of the patriotic lovefest for Bush and his desire to bring the "evildoers to justice."

Dick Armey, the Republican House Majority Leader had been highly skeptical of the Iraq invasion plans until Dick Cheney lied to him about miniturization of nukes and Saddam's desire to dispense them to al Qaeda. If Powell had shown by his actions that he thought Cheney was lying, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A GAME CHANGER.

I'm glad that Powell endorsed Obama, but he still needs to be held accountable for his acts in the runup to the Iraq invasion.

[uppityperson]

68. I agree.eom

[Art_from_Ark]

89. You're right about Powell

but the fact that Obama has taken him under his wing means that he will NEVER be held accountable for his acts in the runup to the Iraq invasion.

[pberq]

91. important points - nt

[JuniperLea]

54. He could have blown the whistle on BushCo and saved lives... eom

[Solon]

50. That's true, but he still had control over his OWN choices and actions...

he chose wrongly, period. Just because he couldn't stop Bush doesn't mean that he isn't himself responsible for his own choices and actions. Don't minimize his role as a tool for the Administration, he chose to play the tool, he could have decided not to.

[JuniperLea]

53. Bullshit

He could have come out and told the world that BushCo was lying and was telling him to lie too.

He knew he was lying.

[ecstatic]

75. True, and almost everyone in Congress has blood on their hands too

At one point I wanted all of them in jail except those who voted NO to the IWR. But I think many of us, though still angry and outraged, have decided to move forward with those who want change and want to end the war.

[The_Casual_Observer]

2. powell could swallow a razor blade for all I care.

[skooooo]

4. How liberal of you.

:puke:

[The_Casual_Observer]

6. what does that stupid war criminal have to do with "liberal"?

[skooooo]

7. swallow a razor blade??

There are several illiberal environments you would fit right in with if this is what you wish on people you don't like.

[The_Casual_Observer]

17. I don't like? We are talking about a war enabling monster.

Apparently every murderer ought to endorse Obama, then they would all get the full support of the "liberal" community to help their cause.

[skooooo]

27. Powell did not have the power to stop Bush.

So stop acting like this scenario is a zero sum game.

[The_Casual_Observer]

33. He enabled his sorry ass at the UN. It was pivotal. He sold out.

If you want to champion his murderous sorry ass because he had kind words for Obama, go ahead.

[skooooo]

34. I think he believed in what he was saying...

But go ahead and wallow in your hatred for him, if that makes you feel better.

[The_Casual_Observer]

36. If he believed it, he was a stupid ass war criminal.

[Hydra]

42. He admitted that he knew the information was bogus

But he decided to do it anyway because he thought the world would be better off without Saddam...or so he says.

If we didn't want a Saddam, we shouldn't have created him.

[skooooo]

43. I didn't know that...

...did he say that in an interview or something.

I'm not here to defend him, per se, I just think it's useless to throw hateful comments at someone who is helping Obama win the election.

[Hydra]

44. He did admit in a sideways fashion

But it confirmed what had already been leaked- some of his helpers witnessed him having a fit over the script Cheney had sent him before he spoke at the UN. That was his pivotal moment- do what's right, or sign your soul on the dotted line.

He blew it.

As to the Obama thing, that's great that he endorsed. As I posted on another thread, that should have been his shining moment of sort-of redemption, and then he should have been shoved out the door.

Instead, Obama gave Powell what he's wanted for 2 years now- a way back in to the halls of power.

I refuse to support McCain, no matter how many questionable things Obama does, but he REALLY needs to stand on principle rather than trying to embrace people that helped destroy America.

[JuniperLea]

57. Well said, Hydra...

There is a hell of a lot more Powell needs to do if redemption is what he is seeking. Obama best be careful. Powell has blood on his hands and this endorsement doesn't wash them clean. Not by a long shot. Powell knows things. I'm sure he knows enough to prosecute BushCo.

[JuniperLea]

56. Oh what bullshit

He isn't that stupid.

:eyes:

Everyone on DU knew he was fucking lying... with his charts and his graphs and his cartoons and his little vile of white powder... WE knew he was lying. He knew too.

[uppityperson]

29. Good lord you are hyperbolic.

[The_Casual_Observer]

30. And you are parabolic. So there.

And you have a pretty low price too, the price of an endorsement.

[uppityperson]

71. I can appreciate one action and condone another. Does not excuse an action.

I would not, will not say "he's redeemed, a man of honour and integrity, a good guy, just another victim of Bushco, etc." But I can appreciate 1 action while condoning another, both by the same person.

[JuniperLea]

55. That is fucking bullshit

Powell could have blown the whistle. He knew Bush was lying. He knew he was part of the big lie.

Powell has a lot of blood on his hands and this endorsement falls short of changing that. It's a start, but it isn't near enough. He knows things. He knows a hell of a lot of things.

[liberal N proud]

5. His endorsement is demonstrating how racist the right wing truly is

[smoogatz]

10. Well, the reaction of the right is certainly demonstrating that.

But we already knew that about Buchanan.

[uppityperson]

13. You mean the n*r supports the n*r line? What total assholery that is.

[liberal N proud]

14. His endorsement is bringing out racist in the GOP and media

[stillcool]

8. I don't get it...

For some reason my energy is focused on winning an election. I don't give a shit about Colin Powell.

[DireStrike]

11. You don't see this affecting the election at all?

That's strange, IMO.

[stillcool]

37. Do I see Colin Powell's endorsement...

affecting the election? I know of no one who would be moved either way. While there may be people out there I'm not going to worry about them. Strange indeed.

[Laurab]

40. As much as I abhor the part Colin Powell played in the war

I believe his endorsement WILL affect some undecided voters. I worry about anyone who is on the fence, and gratefully accept anyone who makes up their mind based on Mr. Powell's eloquent endorsement. I don't find it strange at all. Colin Powell is still respected by many republicans, and I think his endorsement, along with his repudiation of John McLame, will make a difference for many people.

I'm interested in winning an election - the past can't be changed, but the future surely can, and Powell's endorsement is huge, IMO.

[Phredicles]

9. I'm pretty sure I'll never love Powell but I understand that in our electoral

politics it often becomes necessary to bring some pretty unsavory characters into your coalition.

[uppityperson]

12. I agree with what you write but I do get that some people feel otherwise.

[saracat]

15. Wow, it is amazing . Covering up Me Lai and promotng the Iraq War by lies

are all "forgiven" by an endorsement of Obama and all of this is somehow about racism?

[KG]

18. i'm shocked!

actually, after 7 years on DU, i'm not surprised at all. :rofl:

[smoogatz]

21. Did you listen to what Powell said?

Or were you too busy foaming at the mouth?

[uppityperson]

23. No cat, not forgiven at all. It is possible for someone to do both bad and good acts.

This is about appreciating his good action. NOT about forgiving his bad one.

[saracat]

35. Hundreds were massacred at Me Lai and thousands died in the Iraq War

and Powell deserves "praise" for a last minute bandwagon jumping endorsement of Obama? And some are talking about this is "exposing the "racism of the right". This is about the opportunism and venality of Powell.Powell never had any integrity to begin with and the elevation of him to the status of a "hero" by some on the left is sickening.

No endorsement of his of anyone would ever equal the horror of his actions.Perhaps Bush and Cheney can also "appreciated " if they endorse Obama. What about Rumsfeld? Perhaps he could be "rehabilitated" if he endorsed as well.

[1awake]

52. hi saracat, haven't seen you around for a long time it seems.

I do not believe it was a bandwagon type jump. I do believe it is being construed by the right to make it sound like Powell is being racist. I do not believe Powell is a hero. I do feel strongly that Powell's vocal backing of Obama will serve our side. I do not believe that makes up for past choices (I do not believe they were fully mistakes). He is NOT guilty of "war crimes" as so many have blurted out by any stretch of the meaning. He is guilty of several other crimes, as is most of our government on both sides on numerous things. And in my opinion, every single one of us.. all Americans have blood on their hands to one degree or another regardless if they are liberal or not. In the end, us saying we aren't in charge or made phone calls etc doesn't cut it.

I am glad to see you around though. Hope you are doing well.

[JuniperLea]

58. Powell will have to do a hell of a lot more before I'll ever trust him as far as I could throw him

He has a very long history of lying and furthering innocent death.

[uppityperson]

70. I can condone mightily 1 action by someone, yet also see another act by the same person as being a

I can condone mightily one act, one action by someone, yet also see another act or action by the same person as being a good one. I would not, will not say "he's redeemed, a man of honour and integrity, a good guy, just another victim of Bushco, etc."

What I see so far as "exposing the racism of the right" is the poopooing, saying "n*r supports n*r" downplaying of what Powell said, which, to me, sure as shit is racism.

[Fumesucker]

77. "Condone" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means..

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/condone

To overlook, forgive, or disregard (an offense) without protest or censure.



Just thought you might like to know..

[uppityperson]

79. Oh crap, wrong word. You are right. I mean condemn, to speak harshly against and really hate,despise

Or perhaps, don't condone. Foot in mouth. Remove foot. Try again, I condemn, don't condone one, appreciate the other. Dang those words and my brain. Thanks.

[Fumesucker]

85. I figured you meant "condemn" ..

Don't sweat it, we all make mistakes.

I got jumped on a while back on another blog for attributing "The Purloined Letter" to Arthur Conan Doyle, it was actually Edgar Allan Poe. I read almost everything by both authors almost fifty years ago and just misremembered.

[spoony]

63. Then I wish people would leave it at that.

Instead of saying he's redeemed, a man of honour and integrity, a good guy, just another victim of Bushco, etc.

[uppityperson]

69. Me too. I would not say "he's redeemed, a man of honour and integrity, a good guy, just another..."

I would not, will not say "he's redeemed, a man of honour and integrity, a good guy, just another victim of Bushco, etc."

I will say I can condone mightily one act, one action by someone, yet also see another act or action by the same person as being a good one.

Did you take that up on Skinner's thread, since that seems to be what you are talking about? I agree with you.

[gollygee]

16. I am very glad he did what he did, and it will make a huge difference to some Repub. voters

But I will never be a fan. He flat out lied and I watched him lie about what was happening in Iraq. I can't forget that.

But yes, he did a good thing in this instance.

[smoogatz]

31. I'm not a fan, either.

Powell was the prime enabler of the Iraq war, in my view. He says he was duped and that may be so, but he still lost all credibility for me when he waved that vial of white powder in front of the UN. But that's not the point. The point is that he's still a revered figure among moderate Republicans and military-minded indies, and as I say, he just delivered a serious blow to the Republican coalition. If moderates drift to Obama because of this, it's a good thing. I'm not sure why some people don't get that.

[NNN0LHI]

20. Short and sweet. My favorite kind of thread

Good job smoogatz.

GOBAMA!

Don

[Kitsune]

28. No, we get it. I'm glad he endorsed Obama. I know what it's doing to Republicans.

I'm just not of the opinion that it lets him off the hook for going along with lying the country into war with a nation that didn't pose a threat to its neighbors, let alone us.

[blues90]

38. So now it is it doesn't matter how you play the (game )

It's just who wins or loses? It doesn't even matter if you switch teams to win as we have seen lately. It doesn't even matter who or how many died while the games are played or if one even has a conscience about anything.

After all is was so long ago in 2003 , decades ago, centuries ago when Powell sat there playing for the * admin selling the lies that became the shock and awe for tens of thousands. Now we are re-writing history, adusting the strategy to fit the policy , the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.

I am just one who feels a lie is a lie and if the lie causes harm or death no matter how little the harm is or even if it is one death you cannot call it for the better of hold it in hand and pass it off as part of the greater good.

If it were me and my job to have to do, or willfully do what Powell did I could not bring myself to do it no matter what. If I did I would not ever show my face again provided I could even live with myself.

Is this really what you want america to finally come to when all is said and done?

[smoogatz]

46. This is no game.

It's about governing, and the lives of millions of people who will be directly affected by the outcome of this election. Fine with me if you want to stand on principle, whatever that means for you. But there's a lot at stake here, and I'm personally glad for this endorsement as a practical matter, because I think significant numbers of moderate Rs may ultimately be swayed by it.

[blues90]

49. Call it tactic's then , it's still a political game

This is ALL based solely on ONE talking point , Powell endorses to gather votes with ALL else pushed right off the table into the trash.Even if Obama did not want the endorsement he had no choice other than to accept it.

It's a game Powell played and that cost countless lives. That is my principal that I hold too.

Ok , so now the Dems are going to play a similar game as the repubs have just for the win. Fine it that happens but I would hope we could still win on issues and policy alone but maybe I'm far too idealistic to feel comfortable with these tactics.

Here is the thing. Obama has all of this support and funds and McCain has nothing. Yet with all of this Obama is not that far ahead so what's missing here. If almost 2 years running now, this is when Powell decides to jump in and I can't belive it's not for his own personal gain. I see no other logic to it at this point.

The entire time this attach and occupation on Iraq has been going on all of the liberal radio hosts bashed Powell and so did many here and this now is suddenly acceptable and just because Powell climbed out of his spider hole filled with corpes he created, pushed them aside and he now has standing?

Well I hope everyones conscience can bear this because as foolish as my principals may appear I can't stand by Powell or enbrace his endorsement and I don't pride Obama for it either.

Obama stood on his voting against this attack all through his campaign now you hear very little in these debates about Iraq at all but you do hear about Afghanistan and Pakistan. This does tend to tie in with powell in that respect and does raise some questions if you choose to look at it in that light . I hear now that Obama will take Powells advice. Sorry but this rubs me the wrong way.

Some of the many figure heads that took us into Iraq really sould be left out if we are trying to create hope or change. Powell, is not change , he is baggage and a bad memory is visual and print.

If we allow ourselves to forget this then I ask what the next thing will be we will be asked to over look that has already vanished down the memory hole of many americans let alone the rest of the worlds who won't forget what we are willing to forget. How does this make us look when at the time of the attack most of the world stood strongly against it.

[ClayZ]

39. Our country will be needing to be forgiven for

the atrocities that were committed in OUR name.


If you pay taxes, you have blood on your hands.


Some carry buckets of blood, some just tablespoons.


We marched against the war, screamed, yelled, signed petitions, etc. Even though I carried signs that read "NOT IN OUR NAME"... I was not able to stop it. Somehow, like Bill Ayers I wish I had done more.

The War Crimes should not go unpunished. But still there is redemption. Colin Powell is singing a Redemption Song! The freedom he gets from singing and gives by singing it is not quantifieable, yet. He needs some more people in the choir, I think. I am happy to sing along.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwNlQRvV-b4

We better hope the whole world starts to learn a lot about forgiveness. Including us!

We (in the world) are all on it together.

Good on Colin Powell for calling out the BS finally!

[notalemming]

41. Well, it's having a similar effect in the Democratic party too

in DU at least...
:shrug:

[smoogatz]

45. Nah.

DU is a tiny little fragment of the party, with a fairly large number of disruptors and trolls. Just because a few people on DU kick up a fuss, that doesn't make the Powell endorsement an "issue" within the party, any more than PUMA was able to turn the convention into 1968. Most Democrats have the sense to see the Powell endorsement for what it is: a stake through the heart of McCain's campaign. McCain's eyeballs must be oozing blood about now, in fact.

[baldguy]

47. If true, Powell's duty is to take back his party from the extremists.

I think he's angling for a position in the Obama Administration - and thereby eliminating the chance he'll be sent to The Hague.

[spoony]

51. Yes, your OP proves that some still don't get it.

And I doubt you ever will.

[RainDog]

60. read your own sig line: it's all about November

if you really mean that, then you wouldn't have just made this snarky remark.

[spoony]

61. I don't think my sig says anything about abiding war criminals.

Yep, just checked. It doesn't. Obama doesn't need this blood-stained fraud.

[RainDog]

64. yep

you checked, but you are, it seems, clueless about this nation. tho we both agree that the bush administration is full of war criminals (who deserve to be arrested and tried, imo) war and other organized criminal operations are generally brought down when one of their own turns.

tho it may feel good to be holier than thou now, it's not so much fun when it's election time and the talibornagains and racists maintain control of key areas. the more areas of this nation that the democrats are able to control, the better it is for this nation.

Sy Hersh, the guy who exposed Abu Ghraib, said that it's a joke to think that any of them will ever be tried as war criminals... that they got away with it. Sad and sickening to hear, but could very well be true. I guess Hersh isn't good enough for you either if he looks at the corruption and calls it as it is?

Obama wasn't my first choice b/c he's too conservative. But I'm thrilled with his candidacy and he makes me proud to vote for the first time that I can remember. If bringing in Powell brings down the republicans, I'm thrilled about that too.

Just because Powell is on board, this doesn't mean the U.S. cannot hold truth and reconciliation hearings. Having someone around who knows where the bodies are buried would be a good thing in this regard. Hopefully democrats will do the right thing and honor Philippe Sands' calls for the same in lieu of war crimes trials as a way to deal with what has just occurred while also dealing with the other messes the neocons and republicons have left behind.

[spoony]

65. Who said any of them will be tried?

How does getting away with it make him any better? And how has he "turned"? He STILL supports the war in Iraq!!! He hasn't changed!

[RainDog]

66. he just disavowed the McCain campaign

and no one said that getting away with anything made him better. but just forget about it. this is useless to talk about because I'm talking about politics and you're talking about idealism. we don't live in an ideal world. never have and never will.

Kissinger should also be tried as a war criminal. The nation will change without him. thank goodness.

[Skittles]

81. you know it, spoony

I never, EVER thought I would see swooning for that bastard Powell ON A DEMOCRATIC BOARD :puke:

[RainDog]

59. exactly. the goal is to totally discredit the talibornagains. that was done.

I'm no Powell fan, but his endorsement wasn't for people like me. some on this board seem to forget that winning is what matters if we want to take away power from the radical right in this nation. And that should be the goal because nothing else is possible without doing this.

[NeedleCast]

62. I'll join you in that applause

Powell did the right thing. Doesn't change what he did in the build up to the war, but I'm not going to throw stones at him over this.

[mike_c]

67. so Obama gets a war criminal's endorsement...?

Color me not excited. Powell belongs in a cell at The Hague. I couldn't give two shits about his endorsement. War criminals for Obama! Hooray!

THAT'S what I get.

[GoneOffShore]

72. I got it.

And I'm sorry to see that the usual crowd of members of The Church Of Our Lady Of Perpetual Outrage - No One is eligible for Redemption parish have weighed in and pissed on you and General Powell.

[smoogatz]

76. It's about what I expected.

People are entitled to their feelings about Powell--but it strikes me as odd that they're not able to view this from a pragmatic perspective as a demonstrably good thing. Whatever. I've been having a good week in general, so maybe I'm just in an optimistic state of mind.

[Solon]

78. Many of us are pragmatic about this, we just don't like people who defend...

Powell's actions or minimize his involvement in helping to start the Iraq war. That is what most people are responding to. Powell seems to have a lot of outright fans on DU, and frankly they all disgust me.

[smoogatz]

82. I make no defense of his pimping of the war.

And I agree that if he wanted redemption, he could have come out and publicly repudiated Bush, Cheney and the lot of them back in 2004, when it really might've made a difference. But those failures don't make this endorsement any less extraordinary, IMO. It's going to be a game-changer for a lot of voters.

[Solon]

83. True, but I really wish Obama didn't offer him an adviser position...

Obama should play politics with Powell, its very simple, use him to get some more votes, then, after your elected, keep him as far away from your administration as possible. I really don't want that walking disaster put into any position of influence in the Federal Government. This calls for much more diligence on our part in pressuring Obama to do the right thing after he's elected and starts forming his cabinet and advisers.

[Laelth]

73. I hope the Republic Party disintegrates.

I am happy Powell endorsed Obama, and I am glad he spoke the truth about his own party, but I don't forgive him for all the fascist water he carried.

-Laelth

[unkachuck]

74. there are....

....things much greater than the immediate expedient political moment....

[Skittles]

80. um....NO - it is YOU who doesn't GET IT

Mr. Powell willingly played the repuke whore role for the GOP (going so far as to aid and abet a war he did not even believe in) and now that the GOP is associated with losers (with America CIRCLING THE BOWL), that rat bastard is jumping ship and hitching himself to Obama's star. For that, I hope Colin Powell ROTS IN HELL

[RainDog]

84. I can hold both opinions

I'm glad Powell has endorsed Obama because of the political damage is does to those who are even worse than he is. At the same time, I hope he rots in hell.

[Skittles]

87. I will go along with that

I certainly find the idea that Obama should publically condemn the endorsement laughably stupid; I just don't like hearing DUers gush over that repuke bastard

[progressoid]

86. Yep - listen to AM radio. They are falling apart.

[Hekate]

88. Right you are, smoogatz. nt

[GeorgeGist]

90. Colin Powell sat on the post ...

until it was safe to submit his otherwise underwhelming job application.

[Pierre Trudeau]

92. whether or not Powell redeemed himself...

... he has nevertheless made one of the most cogent arguments in favour of Obama and in criticism of McCain, and the current state of the Republican party.

I certainly wouldn't absolve him of responsibility for his role in the Iraq war, but this is not only a step in the right direction; it's a huge step that will have far-reaching consequences. And for that, he has indeed regained some stature in my eyes.