Substance abuse sucks.......

[trumad]

[liberalmuse]

1. I can't even read this shit anymore.

Amy Winehouse has one of the most fabulous voices since Fitzgerald and Streisand, but it is being thrown in the toilet. This makes me incredibly sad. I want another album, but I want her to get better more.

[Quantess]

77. Look how pretty she was.

[sandnsea]

2. But..but.. Europe has the drug answers n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

3. Depends on which part of Europe you're talking about. Prohibition sure as shit doesn't work.

Spending $40 Billion a year on a drug war aimed primarily at pot smoking (which, I'm pretty sure, isn't what is fucking Amy Winehouse up) sure as hell isn't working.

Ever seen what happens to serious alcoholics? That's ugly, too.

But making the shit illegal only gave us Al Capone.

[sandnsea]

8. Neither does decriminalization

There has to be some balance between locking up pot smokers and letting people die.

[Fumesucker]

9. People die from alcohol every day..

Should we make alcohol illegal?

[sandnsea]

11. Reread my post.

And then try again.

[Fumesucker]

15. I read you post as advocating the war on *some* drugs

To continue..

Maybe you should explain yourself a bit better, I'm pretty stupid.

[sandnsea]

16. Where did I say war on anything? n/t

[Fumesucker]

24. Your post in its entirety..

Neither does decriminalization

There has to be some balance between locking up pot smokers and letting people die

Seems pretty clear that you don't want people to be left alone if they choose certain drugs.

[sandnsea]

29. No, I don't

But where did I say to lock anybody up? Or have a war on any particular drug?

[Fumesucker]

37. How are you going to stop people from getting drugs of which you disapprove?

That is the fly in the prohibition ointment.

Drugs are a problem even in high security prisons, you'll never get rid of them from anything even remotely approaching a free society.

[sandnsea]

52. Ah, you'll never get rid of the drugs

Right. So even if they're 100% legal, there will still be drug problems. There will still be related crime. There will still be people selling it out on the streets, along with that related crime. Decriminalization won't solve anything. Treatment is one step. But I know people who have been through treatment 10 times. What do we do with them if they're still out there committing crimes or selling drugs in the park?

[Fumesucker]

55. The great majority of crime associated with drugs

Is due to the illegal status of the drugs in question.

When was the last time you saw a shootout between liquor distributors?

In fact alcohol is the single most violence provoking drug there is and our language reflects that fact.

Barroom brawl.

Don't listen to him, it's the liquor talking.

Ten feet tall and bulletproof.

Mean drunk.

[sandnsea]

59. Denial

Goes with the territory I guess.

So legal alcohol is worse than illegal drugs.

So what is it about decriminalization that would be helpful again?

There has to be a balance between locking up pot smokers and letting people die.

Isn't that what I said?

[RedCappedBandit]

62. The big question is..

what exactly is that balance?

You're the only saying decriminalization won't work. So, what will?

[Fumesucker]

64. Yes indeed..

Alcohol is worse than many illegal drugs, and it has nothing to do with the legality or illegality of either alcohol or other drugs.

People have a very warped view of alcohol precisely because it is the one really potent legal recreational drug.

[sandnsea]

68. No, it isn't any worse

It's simply socially acceptable, and legal. It isn't any better either, btw.

You make all drugs as legal as alcohol, and you will see the same problems, only the culprit will be a drug instead of the booze.

One last thing, there are some drugs that are so much more damaging than alcohol. Alcohol is usually a long slow suicide. Some drugs, like meth or crack, do the same damage, but much much faster. They also screw up the brain much more, making 100% recovery very unlikely. Alcohol can do that too, but again, it takes so much longer. There have usually been a lot of "bottoms" before permanent damage is done with alcohol. Not so true of drugs. Decriminalization is not the 100% answer.

[Fumesucker]

69. You can drink yourself to death quite easily in a single sitting..

It happens regularly in fact. Alcohol is a CNS depressant, drink enough and you stop breathing.

Or more likely, upchuck the alcohol and drown in your own puke because you are too drunk to roll over.

If you go and research the subject you will indeed find that alcohol is the single most violence provoking drug available by reason of its psychopharmaceutical properties.

Recreational drug overdoses are not segregated from the data on accidental poisonings.. The total # of accidental poisonings in 2001 was 16,307.. So the number of drug ODs in that year was considerably less.

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/p/poisoning/deaths.htm

Iatrogenic deaths on the other hand are about 120,000/year..

http://www.progress.org/fold107.htm

Doctor's mistakes kill more than ten times the number of people per year than all illegal drugs put together.

[sandnsea]

70. Denial. I'm done. Bye! n/t

[Fumesucker]

71. Denial of what?

If you weren't losing you wouldn't leave.

[RedCappedBandit]

80. nm

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Call me old fashioned, but I think consenting adults need to be in charge of their own bodies.

We "let people die" when they eat too much fatty food, too.

I watched my dad die of lung cancer, brought on by a completely legal and very addictive product.

The small-l libertarian in me says that what a consenting adult does with his or her own body should be his or her own business, insofar as he or she isn't DIRECTLY harming or endangering anyone else (neglecting kids, driving under the influence, etc.) ... however, realistically, I have trouble with the idea of heroin being available at the 7-11. I think, short term, the answer is to FULLY legalize, regulate, and tax marijuana- there is NO reason why that product can't be legal and available for adults to use responsibly- and start treating "hard" drugs as a health issue instead of a law enforcement one. Fully fund treatment on demand, for starters.

[JI7]

18. there are bans or regulations on trans fats happening these days

[Warren DeMontague]

20. And people are going to jail for months or years for trans fat posession? Don't be facile.

Personally, I think people who WANT to eat trans fats should be allowed to eat them, too. Just make sure the label clearly tells you what's in your food.

[RedCappedBandit]

19. There is no need for heroin to be available at sevs

In the same token, there is no need for it to be illegal, either.

Decriminalization is the only logical step that I can see.


"The small-l libertarian in me says that what a consenting adult does with his or her own body should be his or her own business, insofar as he or she isn't DIRECTLY harming or endangering anyone else"

agreed

[sandnsea]

21. No we have massive intervention programs

to get people to eat differently and to stop smoking. Huge efforts with cheap and easy access to help in every single community in the country. Not true with drug/alcohol addiction. Oregon restrains where alcohol can be sold, but I still don't think they should put heroin on the shelves of the state alcohol store. Fully fund treatment yes, but there should still be laws against selling drugs on the streets, etc. You can still go to jail for selling moonshine, for instance, but the drug prohibition people always seem to forget that.

[Warren DeMontague]

28. I think what I said was, pot should be legal, regulated, and taxed.

For adults.

That's the same situation as we have with alcohol, so I haven't "forgotten" anything.

And as part of a harm reduction strategy for hard drugs, yeah, I think public help should be readily available for people who ask for it. As it is for smoking.

[sandnsea]

31. No, it isn't the same for alcohol

As I stated, you cannot make and sell alcohol in the bath tub. If you do, especially if you kill people, and do it over and over, you will go to prison.

Having said that, knowing that 100% decriminalization isn't going to work, doesn't mean that I advocate locking everybody up either.

That is an assumption you made.

Read exactly what people say and don't put your assumptions on them - and then demonize them based on what YOU assumed.

[Fumesucker]

43. If there is a demand for a certain drug there *will* be a supply..

The supply can either be legal, regulated and controlled or illegal, unregulated and uncontrolled.

Decriminalization is not a solution for this problem, there is no regulation and no control in decrim.

Ban alcohol and you will have literally millions of people making it in their bathtubs in weeks.

It works the same for all the other drugs too.

[High Plains]

65. Legalization doesn't mean no regulation.

Someone once defined a true free market as one where a 12-year-old girl can go to the store and buy a pistol and a gram of cocaine, no questions asked. I don't think anyone is seriously advocating that.

But we can certainly have legal, regulated drug sales. That would get rid of the harms associated with drug prohibition and leave us free to work on the harms associated with substance abuse.

[Warren DeMontague]

72. Actually, you can home brew a certain amount of beer or wine a month, legally.

If you want to sell it or go over that amount, you need to get a license.

I'm not demonizing anyone. What I'm saying is, pot should be legal, regulated, taxed, and available- as a legal, regulated product, for consenting adults. Just as alcohol is.

I can't really gather whether you agree or disagree with this from your posts, but that doesn't mean I'm "demonizing" you.

[High Plains]

36. I'm for prevention, education, and treatment on demand. Not cops and jails.

There could be a system of regulated drug sales that would eliminate ALL the harms associated with prohibition. That would leave us with the harms associated with substance abuse (which we have today), and those could be ameloriated with prevention, education, and treatment on demand.

Not drug courts, not coerced treatment. With one set of exceptions: The only people forced into alcohol treatment are drunk drivers, and I'm fine with that. If you're drug use is in a regulated regime is causing you to commit crimes, you need to go to treatment.

[sandnsea]

47. Most coerced treatment is due to crimes

It's generally not as if they're really running people in just for using. It's either selling, or some other petty crime to get money for drugs. But even if you sold drugs through some state run method, I bet there would still be a black market. There is in Europe and those people go to prison if they're selling, or if they're selling in public areas like parks, etc.

[Fumesucker]

51. The black market in alcohol is miniscule...

Are you claiming that alcohol is somehow different than other recreational drugs?

And Europe doesn't send people to prison with anywhere near the frequency the US does.

[sandnsea]

53. Did I say that?

Please stop saying I said things I didn't say.

Europe doesn't send people to prison over ANYTHING with near the frequency the US does. The prison problem is about a whole lot more than just drugs.

[Fumesucker]

58. Actually the explosive increase in prison populations in the USA

Coincided with Nixon's establishment of the DEA in 1972.

[Fumesucker]

61. You keep implying things...

And then complaining that is not what you mean..

It would be much easier to keep from misinterpreting you if you would come out and say what it is that you would actually like to do with regards to drugs in general.

[High Plains]

66. I'd like to see some stats on that. It doesn't gibe with my experience.

In many locales, getting busted for drug possession means a choice between treatment or jail.

And as a matter of fact, 90% of drug arrests in 2006 were for possession. You can check the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports if you wish.

Ironically, one of the causes of the shortage of treatment beds for people who really need them is because people who get caught with pot get sent to treatment they don't need by idiot judges.

As for the European black market, that's because Europe still operates under the global prohibition regime, albeit in a smarter, gentler way for users. That's why decrim, while nice for users, will not resolve the harms of prohibition.

[RedCappedBandit]

17. Decriminlization

could work. Need to view drug abuse as a medical problem, not a legal problem.
There is no reason for drug abusers to be in prison simply for using said drugs. period.

[sandnsea]

23. I already said that

there is no reason for pot smokers to be in prison.

[RedCappedBandit]

26. there is no reason for ANYONE with a substance problem to be in prison.

[sandnsea]

27. And where did I say otherwise? n/t

[RedCappedBandit]

30. You didn't, but that is what I saw implied in the post i replied to.nt

[sandnsea]

32. Don't demonize people for what YOU thought you read n/t

[RedCappedBandit]

35. Where did I demonize you? Relax, We're having a discussion

[sandnsea]

40. Not if you twist my words

we're not having a discussion.

And actually, I don't think there is 100% decriminalization anyplace in Europe. Every country will send people to prison at some point, if they continue to break various drug laws. But they do send people to treatment first and foremost. They do that here too, but the problem here is that the cost for anybody who works is still too much. The justice system is clueless as to what it is like to live on minimum wage. That goes for a lot more than just substance abuse treatment. We're supposed to be getting more treatment funding in Oregon, we'll see how it goes.

[RedCappedBandit]

44. I'm not twisting your words

I interpreted what you said to mean something, and offered my opinion. Nobody is attacking you. I simply disagree with you that decriminalization won't work.
I don't see how you could compare the way we treat addicts here to certain countries in europe. I really don't.

[High Plains]

25. Why not let people make their own choices?

[sandnsea]

34. Addicts don't make choices n/t

[High Plains]

38. Of course they do. And people quit drugs every day of the year.

[sandnsea]

41. The definition of addiction is not being able to quit

:crazy:

[RedCappedBandit]

49. ...

You should know better, given your 25 years of sobriety.
Even after you "quit" you're still an addict. You made the choice to stop using, as does every addict who gets clean. On the same token, every addict chooses to start and continue using drugs for a given amount of time before they take control of their lives, however long that may take. Addicts, like anyone, make choices every day.

[High Plains]

67. Ooh, I think that's a a tautology.

The whole notion of addiction, while appealing, is awfully elusive. The more you try to pin it down, the more it squirts away like a blob of mercury. I worry less about "addiction" then problematic drug use.

[RedCappedBandit]

39. What a load of shit

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

[sandnsea]

42. lol, 25 years clean and sober

I obviously do.

[High Plains]

45. I guess you made a choice, huh? Congratulations.

Don't assume other people can't.

[sandnsea]

48. No. I got treatment

Until then, I didn't know what was wrong with me. I'd have never gotten up one day and just made a choice to quit.

[RedCappedBandit]

50. That's you.

I, on the other hand, know plenty of people who CHOOSE to get treatment because they KNOW what is wrong with them. Funny how that works.

[sandnsea]

54. lol, no you don't, but thanks for playing n/t

[RedCappedBandit]

56. Actually, yes I do

Quite a few.
Dunno why you don't buy it, but there it is.

[RedCappedBandit]

60. I don't get this

From my experience, doctors aren't even confident in their own ability to help anyone unless that person has already made the choice that they need to make changes in their lives. I don't understand where you're coming from at all.

[High Plains]

63. Some people are like you, some aren't.

If you look at drug careers, you find many, many people who just decide they've had enough and quit. No treatment. No jail. They just quit when they'r ready.

As I said upthread, I support non-coercive treatment, available on demand, along with prevention. We can reduce problematic drug use without cops and jails, just as we have reduced cigarette smoking.

[RedCappedBandit]

46. Well, congrats!

Can you explain why you said that, then? I'd like to hear your input

[blueknight]

6. i hope im wrong

but if something dont happen soon, she will be dead within a year. and man, what a voice

[Joe the Liberal]

4. Wow! Drugs will make a monster out of you.

She really let herself go.

[RedCappedBandit]

22. not sure i like your way of putting it..

[TomInTib]

5. Substance Abuse is what it's all about.

Kinda like the Hokey-Pokey.

The Lightweights (like that Whinehouse idiot) are who give Substance Abuse a bad name.

I am going to out-live Keith Richard.

Just wait and see.


Tom

[FreeState]

7. My heart goes out to anyone with a substance problem

One of my first boyfriends had a problem with both drugs and alcohol. It was awful.

Remember they might look like shit in their pics like above but the most heartbreaking thing is that they feel worse than they look. They literally are dying inside.

If anyone here needs help please visit this site - there is help out there and people that want to help:

http://www.samhsa.gov/

[Ian David]

10. What happened to Jackie Mason????? He looks AWFUL! n/t

[mitchum]

74. He stole Texacala Jones' old eye make up shtick

[Fumesucker]

12. Substance abuse sucks...

But not as much as being locked in a cage for having a desire for a substance of which the politicians disapprove.

Consider the Stanford Prison Experiment, fully one third of the randomly selected student "guards" were shown to exhibit "genuine sadistic tendencies". That took all of six days, to turn mild mannered college students into real sadists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

Now imagine what percentage of *real* guards exhibit "genuine sadistic tendencies".

Once you have that locked in your head, imagine what it would be like to be under the complete control of someone who has "genuine sadistic tendencies".

[JI7]

13. is the top 2nd pic photoshopped

[DU GrovelBot]

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[leftyclimber]

57. My God, that's just tragic. nt

[mitchum]

73. She can get as fucked up as she likes...it still won't make her Billie Holiday or Charlie Parker

she's a moderately talented pop singer who is a druggie (and she looks like an Egyptian horse)

[JVS]

76. Musicians are supposed to be all fucked up on drugs.

[mitchum]

78. True, but not all musicians (or drugs) are equal

She is moderately talented.
The Limeys are always real suckers for one of their pale brethren who can be passed off as "soulful"
It's a very low bar they have there.

[JVS]

75. Wow. Those top 2 pics look awful.

[aikoaiko]

79. Some people just aren't meant to live long enough for a midlife crisis.

[MrSlayer]

81. A little abuse is ok, being a full-on junkie is another story.

She'll be joining the 27 club.