Obviously, you have never been to a rock concert...

[Javaman]

the psychology of crowds of people is very interesting.

While those who did the actual trampling maybe guilty of stepping on another human being, the real fault should be placed squarely at the feet of walmart.

Those in the front of the line are bullies, period. those in the middle usually get swept up and have no idea what is underfoot. those in the back, hopefully were the ones that saw what happened and tried to help.

letting people into a store en mass without crowd control so walmart can make the nightly news with the yearly "crowds bursting into the store" shot is criminally liable.

There have been stories over the years of people being "banged up" or suffering "slight injuries" but this one event brings to mind the famous WHO concert where the concert goers, of an over sold show (how many wii's did walmart have on hand? 3?) were crushed to death when trying to enter the concert.

http://www.crowdsafe.com/taskrpt /

back then much like what should happen today, the fault was found with the lack of crowd control and management.

but like everything else in our current bizarro land of corporate lazafaire and corporate welfare, the prols will be held accountable, because they are easy targets with no resources to adequately defend themselves. Why go after a conglomerate and lose? (fill in your best exxon valdez settlement story here).

If anyone has a clue, a class action lawsuit should be brought against walmart and the big box retail industry in general. walmart is the poster child for this crap happening, but it covers a wide range of stores that practice similar no crowd control procedures.

#15256 why I hate walmart.

[Winterblues]

1. I have been to many many Rock Concerts and never once saw a person trampled

Maybe it is because the Rock concerts I went to were in the sixties and seventies and maybe were more civilized. In fact, that was a point of honor back then, that hundreds of thousands of people could get together for a three day bash and no one got into a fight or got threatened by another person. The acid may have had some problems but the people were nice....

[boozepusher]

2. Altamont Speedway ring a bell?

B-)

[Bluenorthwest]

34. At Altamont there was a stabbing

by the paid security, of an attendee. There was no trampling by the crowd, there was murder by the 'security' hired by the Stones.

[boozepusher]

43. Yes, I know.

I was responding specifically to "Maybe it is because the Rock concerts I went to were in the sixties and seventies and maybe were more civilized. In fact, that was a point of honor back then, that hundreds of thousands of people could get together for a three day bash and no one got into a fight or got threatened by another person." Not everything in the sixties and seventies was sunshine and lollipops.

[Javaman]

4. LOLOLOLOL

you are using the same lame analogy that someone else (that shall go nameless) used here on DU.

Meaning, if a plane crashes, you choose to point out how many are still flying.

so are you arguing for or against peoples outrage over this incident?

or are you saying that adequate crowd control shouldn't be enforced?

perhaps the reason this trampling took place is because as a society we the people feel a need to fill our empty lives with plastic crap and feed into the need to buy buy buy mentality and as a result need to line up by the thousands to by useless crap of limited amounts because our ignorant masses are lead to believe that we are what we buy?

and on your civilized note: were where you during the race riots? Watts? Chicago? New York? That doesn't appear very civilized to me.

[JonQ]

8. If a plane crashes

we usually try to figure out why, who is to blame. Rather than immediately deciding that the airline company is guilty, must pay massive crippling fines, and be forced out of business to make us feel better.

[Javaman]

11. Thank you for agreeing with me.

people get trampled and we figure out why. Usually like with the Who concert and more than likely with this situtation it will be inadequate security and crowd control.

Have a nice day.

[JonQ]

20. Except

you've already assigned guilt:
"While those who did the actual trampling maybe guilty of stepping on another human being, the real fault should be placed squarely at the feet of walmart."

I'm assuming you aren't a crime scene investigator called in to look at this particular murder. So you don't seem to have any more info than the rest of us, yet you've decided walmart is 100% to blame.

Not so much a matter of figuring out why as deciding you hate walmart and just running with that.

[Javaman]

25. past studies have shown that if you want safety, you employ crowd control.

period.

[JonQ]

28. Past studies

have showed this to be almost unheard of occurance and completely unexpected.

If walmart experienced trample fatalities on a regular basis that would be one thing. But they don't. This was a freak accident.

[conscious evolution]

91. It is not unheard of.

People get trampled to death in large crowds on a regular basis.The human race has centuries of experience in dealing with large crowds yet WalMart throws all of it out the window for their marketing purposes.
I hope they get their ass's sued over this.

[DonEBrook]

52. Bush employed crowd control (he called it 'shock and awe')

in Iraq.

[TexasObserver]

15. Wrong! It's called Res Ipsa Loquitur, and it applies any time an airliner crashes.

Your comment about the law is wrong. It's wrong for airliners because it is virtually impossible for one to crash without some airline liability. It's wrong for Walmart because you clearly know nothing about premises liability. Walmart did the marketing to get the people there. It hawked its wares in such a way as to increase the likelihood or early, excited large crowds. It had a duty to both its customers and its employees, and it clearly failed to meet that duty.

Only the seriously impaired would not see that.

[JonQ]

21. It's impossible for a plane to crash

without the airline being responsible? I find that laughable.

[TexasObserver]

40. That's because you have no idea what a plane crash lawsuit is like.

Unlike you, I speak from knowledge.

I'm not going to repeat a 50 page petition for you, but I can assure you that there will be many, many properly pleaded causes of action, listing the various acts of alleged negligence, NO MATTER WHY THE PLANE CRASHED. There's always something the pilot, or co pilot, or crew, or maintenance crew should have done, but didn't. Always.

And that's true even if the plane is knocked out of the sky by lightning. Do you comprehend that an event can have more than one cause, and that liability attaches even if one is not the sole cause of the deleterious event?

[JonQ]

47. So you're saying even if the plane company was completely innocent

you lawyers (who are all decent, honest folk concerned about what is right and fair and not out to make a buck) will still attribute the blame to the plane company. And then you make the claim the because a lawsuit may be filed against walmart that is proof that they are actually to blame (rather than deemed liable in a court of law).

You kind of make my case for me there don't you?

[TexasObserver]

50. As I said, they're NEVER completely innocent.

There will always be multiple failures on their part.

The problem here is you. Just because you can't understand something doesn't change its truth.

[JonQ]

56. No

you said even if they weren't at fault (lighting strike for instance) your lawyers (who only exist to uphold our freedoms I recently found out) would file every possible lawsuit against the company regardless of whether it had anything to do with the crash or not. Presumably to protect us from something.

No really, you said that, go back and check.

The failure here is that you are a lawyer, and thus unable to criticize your profession. I have a somewhat less biased view of lawyers. And just because a lawsuit is filed I don't believe that confers any guilt, as you seem to think.

on edit, I thought I'd make it simple:

"but I can assure you that there will be many, many properly pleaded causes of action, listing the various acts of alleged negligence, NO MATTER WHY THE PLANE CRASHED. There's always something the pilot, or co pilot, or crew, or maintenance crew should have done, but didn't. Always."

So even if it was an act of god, that they couldn't foresee or prevent, they are still to blame. Always. Seems pretty easy to understand. Always file a lawsuit for any situation, maybe one will get through.

You seem to be under the impression that this is very complicated, it really isn't.

[Name removed]

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[JonQ]

74. I know I know I've gotten under your skin

because you feel you must resort to childish insults to "prove your point". I would expect that at free republic.

[JonQ]

27. Res Ipsa Loquitur

"The first step is whether the accident is the kind that would usually be caused by negligence, and the second is whether or not the defendant had exclusive control over the instrumentality that caused the accident. If found, res ipsa creates an inference of negligence, although in most cases it does not necessarily result in a directed verdict."

Did walmart of exclusive control over the circumstances? Consider, can they control how many people show up at their store, in what mood they're in, whether they brought their good trampling shoes or not? No. It can influence them, but they do not have exclusive control over that. Or else we'd all be in walmart, in the mood to spend money, all the time.

And airlines are not always found guilty under this law so your assessment is inaccurate.

[Name removed]

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[JonQ]

38. Right

walmart will pay because they know they're liable and feel just awful about it, and not to avoid a larger lawsuit and even more negative publicity. Yep, willingness to settle out of court is ispo facto proof of guilt.

I've found that law cases have little to do with finding the guilty party and more to do with bending the law to suit the needs of whichever side has the most money (or the most public sympathy at the moment). No doubt you find multi-million dollar suits for anyone who slips anywhere to be perfectly just, I don't.

Winning a lawsuit proves that you had better lawyers, not necessarily guilt or innocence. Unless you think cases always go the right way and having the most lawyers or a sympathetic story has nothing to do with it?

[Name removed]

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[JonQ]

46. Does that mean you love lawyers and lawsuits?

Perhaps you're a bit biased on the subject? No doubt tobacco company execs have nothing but nice things to say about tobacco company execs, government lobbying on their behalf, and sketchy advertising. Just as I'm sure lawyers are fond of lawyers, and lawsuits.

Your personal bias aside, put yourself in one of these individuals place. You've just gotten through trampling a poor guy to death all so you could get a cheap TV or whatever, would you feel the least bit of guilt? Or would you wipe your hands of the whole thing, blame walmart and not lose a moment of sleep? I know if I'd been part of this mob I would feel guilty.

[TexasObserver]

48. Yes. Lawyers are the keepers of your rights, and lawsuits protect you from harm.

I'm not concerned about the personal fault of the jackasses who stomped this guy. LIABILITY does not derive from anger, or retribution, or stupidity. It derives from a duty that is breached, and in such breached condition, harm befalls one to whom Walmart owes a duty - its employee.

I do not absolve the individuals by finding liability upon Walmart. I don't care about them. If video proves any of them committed a crime, so be it. My focus is on the corporate citizen that exists in every community in America.

[JonQ]

49. And here I thought the constitution

judges, voters, etc had something to do with that. Lawsuits are a redress for a wrong. Like prisons, necessary, sometimes, but not something to brag about or celebrate.

And your concern, as a lawyer, seems to be to find the person/entity most easily sued. I was arguing from a moral standpoint. You're right on that, the law isn't necessarily concerned with morality, or guilt, as much as it should be. Often guilty parties go free, and it is perfectly legal, but that doesn't make it right. For instance, if key evidence in a murder trial is collected incorrectly it will be removed and a murderer may have to walk free, that is "right" as far as the law is concerned, that doesn't mean they're free of guilt.

This mob will most likely not receive any punishment (they rarely do, it's hard to track everyone down and assign guilt), that doesn't mean they bear no responsibility for what happened.

[TexasObserver]

51. Nothing happens until a lawyer files a lawsuit or a motion.

Who do you think makes sure the rights of the constitution are secured? It's the lawyers who fight their way through a maze of police, prosecutors, judges, and such.

Your lack of understanding of how constitutional rights are preserved or advanced is appalling. Thank the ACLU for your rights.

[JonQ]

55. Wow

I never realized that lawyers were the only thing standing between us and fascism. All I had to do to find out how marvelous, pefect and infallible lawyers was to . . ask . . a . . lawyer. Too bad germany, russia, north korea, iran, etc never had lawyers.

I thought the constitution was important. And voters for choosing politicians and judges that will uphold our rights (and getting rid of those who don't) and a military that swears it's loyalty to our constitution rather than to any particular individual (and is civilian controlled). But now I find that we can throw all those out and just have a whole bunch of lawyers.

You've noted that our founders put their faith in "we the people" not "we the attorneys". But what do they know, I'm sure their ignorance of constitutional rights was appalling as well.

I think perhaps you've a somewhat inflated sense of importance for a profession that spends most of it's time negotiating contracts, chasing ambulances and defending/prosecuting minor crimes.

[Name removed]

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[JonQ]

75. Yawn

care to post anything new?

Me: {well reasoned response as to why the people who committed murder should feel guilty for committing murder}
you: you're so stupid, I'm a lawyer I know everything, I can't believe how stupid you are. insert random case having nothing to do with this.
Me: {well reasoned response to your statement, ignoring the insults, and explaining why that case is not relevant and in no way relieves these people of guilt}
You: you're still stupid, and ignorant, I'm still a lawyer and know everything, stupid, plumber, palin, etc etc.
Me: yawn. Got anything new?

Repeat as needed.

[Howardx]

79. i'm thinking of building a shrine to lawyers after this

i'm stunned. surely we all owe them our very lives.

[Orsino]

93. It's a narrow perspective.

Lawyers are among the many keepers of our rights, who include journalists, educators, elected officials, police and uniformed troops.

Thank goodness we don't have to depend on lawyers alone.

[JonQ]

95. Most politicians are lawyers

and the constitution was very clearly set up to protect us from them. I think it's naive to say that lawyers are the primary line of defense against tyranny. History and common sense would say otherwise.

[DonEBrook]

53. Just a guess here...you didn't represent anyone from KAL 007

right?
:eyes:
Or are you just playing a lawyer on the internets...?

[Name removed]

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[Winterblues]

35. You said I had obviously NEVER been to a Rock Concert

As if EVERY single Rock Concert had people trampled to death. I have been to many and never once, not a single time ever saw anyone get trampled. You can laugh LOL LOL LOL all you want but the truth of the matter is you don't know what you are talking about...

[Name removed]

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[Two Americas]

44. of course

You have been in many crowded theaters and night clubs and have not been burned to death, either.

Whether or not "people are nice" is no more likely to protect you from a stampede than it is to protect you from a fire. Just as with fire safety, people have learned from past stampedes and there are standards for crowd control procedures.

If there had been a fire at WalMart, and it was found that they were in violation of fire code, we wouldn't be debating whether or not they were liable. If WalMart had over-crowded the building, and people were trampled to death trying to escape the fire (which happens in fires) and the exits were poorly marked and inadequate, we would not be debating this either.

Crowd stampedes are every bit as much of a risk, a known risk, as fire, and just as with fire danger there are procedures for preventing tragedy. WalMart not only ignored procedure, they knowingly did things that increased the risk.

[Howardx]

78. the first i ever heard of was a who concert

that was pretty early.

i suppose you are safer at an abba concert.

[JonQ]

3. Yeah, poor "prols"

Walmart practically forced them at gunpoint to shove that guy on the ground and stomp him to death. They're the real victims here.

[Javaman]

6. man, you obviously will never get it.

continue to support your master chinamart, they own you.

[JonQ]

7. Wait . . .

you think walmart forced these people, against their will, to kill someone. Meaning essentially that they have no free will and are "possessed" by the evil corporate spirit of walmart. I think they are individuals who are perfectly free to act as they see fit. And you say *I* think of walmart as our master? Huh?

Do you think these people were free agents, or subjects to the dark will of Walmart?

[blondeatlast]

10. What part of his link escapes you? Yeah, you've given your RAtM and "hate

Wal-Mart" creds--but do you know what happened at the Who concert and Altamont?

Until you inform yourself about the science of crowds, you are just another asshole with a handy keyboard.

[Name removed]

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[JonQ]

17. Care to elaborate?

I'm hardly the first to blame the responsible party. Nor am I the only one on here. In fact it seems to be split.

I'm curious, why are you so uncomfortable blaming the people who did the trampling? If they had acted civilly would those have occured?

[Javaman]

26. see responce #25 above. nt

[Robb]

19. Edited

...because I need to read more carefully. Carry on. :D

[JonQ]

16. Mobs act the way they do

because they are freed from responsibility. As in this case. Rarely if ever is an entire mob ever found guilty of anything. It's always a horrible tragedy and the people go home thinking how awful everyone else acted and that society must be blamed some how (they certainly aren't going to blame themselves). People who face absolutely no consequences for their actions (legal, moral, societal, etc) can be a very dangerous and frightening bunch.

And that is exactly what people here are trying to encourage. No accountability. Assign blame to anyone but the people in the mob.

[Javaman]

22. Sigh..

Mob mentally works as a...mob, not as an individual. And if you understand the psychology behind mob mentality, you will also know that it stems from fear.

in this case it's the fear of being left out. Not getting that item leaves a person of this mentality in a moral deficit. I know it seems like it doesn't make sense but that is what is at play here.

this feeling of being left out is reinforced by the marketing and retail industry to guarantee crowds at the store.

why do you think certain toys are kept in low amounts during the holidays? it's not because they can't fill demand, they keep them artificially low so they get more people into the store that don't want to be...left out.

While they are at the store, if said item can't be purchased, other items that are slow moving, will be purchased.

That's how it works. marketing/retail 101.

[JonQ]

33. Not getting a tickle me elmo this year

does not excuse murder. Or acting as part of a mob that commits murder. Sorry, insufficient to excuse these folk.

[Javaman]

59. Never said it did, but the issue is crowd control and a liability issue. nt

[JonQ]

60. Obviously it's not a question of guilt, then

[Javaman]

84. round and round

goodbye.

[blondeatlast]

23. I don't excuse the ENTIRE mob--but it only takes a few to act

to incite a crowd. Simply having sanchions would have prevented this--decent loss prevention personnel as well.

And the manager was in his goddamned office. When it comes to the court case, there is no denying that WalMart will be liable. delude yourself while you can, WalMart is going to pay big (but it will be settled out of court so we won't know.)

I'm hoping that WM is FORCED to disclose the deal. The internet will have a large hand in forcing the issue.

But keep deluding yourself, it's rather charming, Mr. Ultra-radical LWinger...

[JonQ]

30. I don't doubt walmart will pay in the end

just to get this over with and avoid even worse PR. But that doesn't mean they're guilty.

And the manager being in his office isn't really that out of the ordinary. That's where managers generally hang out. I suppose he could have been out there waiting with a gun to drive off unruly customers, but that tends to dissuade people from coming in a buying things.

And while a few people may provide the catalyst the other have to respond or else all you have are a few jackasses acting like jackasses. Annoying, but no one dies. Would you be incited to commit murder so easily? I doubt it.

[blondeatlast]

37. Have you EVER worked retail? On a Black Friday? I worked at SAKS

and the managers were expected to be on the floor during major events--not to mention my time at Target.

It is VERY unusual for the manager to be off the floor on any part of Black Friday.

You have NO idea what you are talking about.

[JonQ]

39. Absolutely

had that manager been out there then . . . well then something.

Come on, this is your case against walmart? The manager was in the managers office when this happened, so it's his fault? Please try harder.

I have yet to hear one thing that exonerates those who did the trampling.

[blondeatlast]

73. Where? Be specific. I worked at a local Macy's like dept. store, then Bullock's, then Saks Fifth Ave

then a great supervisory-to-managerial job at Target. I left (with educational benefits and a cushy profit-sharing bonus) to finish college.

And your creds?

What constitutes a retail season?
What is MOS? EOM? What's a waterfall?

[JonQ]

76. I love how all the experts seem to be on the internet

our country appears to be full of nothing but experts on everything. We have the mob psychologist, lawyer, and now retail sales guru.

We still need a cop, construction worker and indian though.

[blondeatlast]

87. Far more poseurs on the 'net, though; you should know. Can't answer the question, huh?

Where'd you do your time, smart guy?

[conscious evolution]

92. It is called inciting a riot

When you call together a large group of people and then create conditions that set off mob rule you should be charged with inciting a riot.

[NashVegas]

18. You Don't Seem To Understand the Meaning of "Liability"

Liability is what suits are based on, not fault. There is plenty of blame to go around, to assign "fault," but the bottom line is this:

Wal-Mart was aware of the chances an unruly, dangerous crowd would be on its property. Wal-Mart knew the people in front of the crowd were in jeopardy and Wal-Mart failed to protect them.

[TexasObserver]

70. Guys like that get stricken for cause early in the jury voir dire.

There's always two or three big mouth Rushbo supporters in a jury panel, and they can't wait to play Rush, Jr. and offer their opinion that everyone who files a lawsuit wants something for nothing, that lawyers are ambulance chasers who make up the facts, and judges are controlled by those lawyers.

The JUDGE instructs each jury, IN WRITING, the CHARGE they are given. It tells them what they are to consider. He or she instructs them regarding the law. They are asked to determine a series of questions, and they do answer those questions.

As you note, there is always plenty of blame to go around, but liability can attach even if the portion of blame is limited. The blame we place on the individuals in the crowd does not obviate the liability of Walmart. There are some people who simply lack the capacity to understand this simple fact, and you're seeing several of them in this thread.

[Occulus]

81. Question: in your professional opinion, what would have released WalMart from liability

in this particular case?

[TexasObserver]

88. Nothing can release them from responsibility for the premises, as a practical matter.

They could subcontract the entire process of safety for the event, bringing in a team to handle the event, and in doing so, could have gotten from such a contractor a commitment to indemnify and hold Walmart harmless from any damages or costs resulting from any incidents or events. Walmart could further require such a contractor to provide proof of adequate CGL insurance to cover such claims, and perhaps make Walmart an additional insured under the contractor's policy of insurance, specifically for this event.

If Walmart had done those things, they would be in a position to pass onto the contractor all costs of defending the lawsuits spawned by the incident.

When one entity like Walmart controls the entire premises, from the selection of the doors, to the maintenance of them, to the outside security, to the inside procedures, it is very difficult for that company to avoid liability in any crowd incident. When you show up at a store that has actively solicited you to be there, when you are there to pay money to the store owner, at that owners' invitation, then such an owner has a duty to you, and part of that duty is to make the premises safe for your visit there.

When someone gets stomped to death at a commercial event where one entity controls the premises, they're going to get sued, and they're going to have to pay. Walmart has a duty to prevent these incidents from happening, and when one happens, it's pretty good evidence that Walmart didn't meet that duty.

[Occulus]

80. New starting point for you: do you understand the difference between civil and criminal liability?

[treestar]

5. And lawyers are always criticized for going after the "deep pockets"

Those who were injured will sue Wal-Mart. Many juries are likely to find Wal-Mart to be at fault. The victim who died - his jury is very likely to find it is Wal-Mart, not the individuals in the crowd, to be responsible. Judgments against the crowd members are probably uncollectible. So those greedy bastard trial lawyers will do all they can to pin it on Wal-Mart!

Tort reform! We need it now before the insurance companies are forced to charge higher premiums to Wal-Mart which in turn is forced to charge higher prices to pay for all those frivolous suits! :sarcasm:

[NashVegas]

9. I Wouldn't Call Those In Front of the Line, "Bullies"

The very front usually just got there way early and held their place.

It's the people *just* behind them where the danger is. Either they got there early but just not early enough, to be in front, or they pushed their way up as far as they could. The front is where they *want* to be but couldn't and they're going to take that frustration out and be where the first great push is. The first line has the motivation to run straight in, but they don't go knocking people down. That happens when they have no choice, because there's a crowd pushing at their backs.

Everything else, I agree with.

[Javaman]

14. have you ever seen any videos of these mad rush in the store openings?

the people in the front are bullies, no ifs ands or buts.

[NashVegas]

31. I've Been At the Front of the Lines

Right in front of the stage, with a few thousand people pressed at my back.

[Javaman]

58. the thrill of being first, huh?

have fun with that. LOL

[NashVegas]

90. As I Was Saying ...

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/crime/ny-listam045951623dec04,0,2283434.story

Shoppers who remained inside their vehicles in the parking lot until the Valley Stream store's special 5 a.m. opening apparently clashed with people who had stood in line for hours outside Wal-Mart, police said.

When the store's doors opened, the conflict between the two groups - with "a considerable amount of people" who had stayed in their vehicles rushing to enter the store without waiting in line - fostered "mob mentality," Nassau Police Lt. Kevin Smith said.

[LibDemAlways]

62. A couple of years ago I took my then 13-year-old daughter and

two of her friends to a concert at a large arena. I had paid extra for early admission, so they could get close to the stage. Stupidly, I figured I should be up there with them. We were in the front row and the pushing and shoving was just horrendous. My body was almost impaled on the barricade and when it was over I had bruises all over. I never realized until that night that security's job is to protect the band from the fans, but not the fans from each other.

[Cleita]

12. My point exactly. Rock concerts are micromanaged for safety

so concert goers can have a good time but still be safe. It also keeps the artists and the workers at them safe too.

[ACTION BASTARD]

24. 1984 Judas Priest at Madison Square Garden. They were banned for life for what the fans did

It was the "Defenders Of The Faith Tour" and Iron Maiden opened for them. By the end of the JP set, fans had torn out "thousands and thousands" of the foam seat cushions and had started throwing them like giant frisbees. Rob Halford just stood there looking smugly satisfied whenever he threw up his arms thousands of foam cushions would fill the air.

It was something I'll never forget.

So yeah this crowd psychology stuff...it's powerful when it happens.

[Rebubula]

32. Saw them in MD

That was one of the greatest rock bills EVER! Although I thought it was Screaming for Vengeance tour...not like my memory works well or my hearing for that matter. Yeah..I checked...your memory is much better than mine. Hmmm...I wonder why my memory sucks...

I weep when I listen to what passes for heavy metal today.

[ACTION BASTARD]

64. Yep, the best concerts for me were all during the early 90-80's.

Unfortunately I was a wee baby in the 70's.

I can't remember the last rock concert I went to. I wanted to see Dream Theater and Heaven & Hill but they sold out so fast. Fuck paying scalper prices.

It's true how sad the state of heavy metal is today. After the fall of grunge it went totally to the crapper. At least Heaven & Hell are recording a new album.

[kysrsoze]

82. Metal is NOT dead - Tool, The Sword, High on Fire, Ministry, Otep, etc.

You have to look for them - not as many stadium-filling acts. There are also a lot of great rock acts like Deftones, Mars Volta, Coheed and Cambria, Avenged Sevenfold (if you were partial to Guns n Roses), TVOTR, etc.

[TexasObserver]

29. Anyone who purposefully draws a large, excited crowd for money has a duty to those invitees.

It also has a duty to its employees. The duty is to make sure the crowd does not hurt itself or the employees. Whether the entity in charge is the promoter of the WHO concert or Walmart, the standard is reasonableness and foreseeability. Could they foresee the potential crowd problems, and were they reasonable in preparing for and addressing such problems?

Here's the reality of a case like this one: It is virtually a certainty that Walmart will be found negligent in its conduct, in a variety of ways, and that such negligence will have been a producing cause of the death of their employee. It is probable that they will be found grossly negligence, and that punitive damages will be assessed. Unless Walmart settles before trial, which it should.

I'm pretty good at evaluating cases, and I figure this one is worth about $3.5 to $5.0 million in settlement, more if tried. If Walmart is smart, they'll settle it early and get a complete confidentiality agreement, and hope it is forgotten.

[DonEBrook]

54. You might be right. Ambulance chasers are generally quite skillful at extracting

large sums from deep-pocket companies (and lining their own at the same time, leaving a few crumbs for the plaintiff)

[-..__...]

61. The better ones...

will try to contact any of the herd that was present and file a class action lawsuit claiming "grievous bodily harm" from tripping over
a negligently placed body, or "severe emotional distress" from not scoring that George Forman talking juice blender.

[DonEBrook]

63. I'm reminded of an old joke: Joe the outhouse salesman

goes up to farmer Smith's and says "I sell Acme outhouses that are guaranteed to never stink."
Smith writes a check on the spot and the thing is delivered 3 days later.
3 more days go by and farmer Smith is mad as hell, the thing stinks...so he calls Joe to complain. Joe says "I'll be there first thing in the morning"
And sure enough he shows up, inspects the Acme outhouse and tells Smith "Well, hell, no wonder it stinks...somebody shit in it!"


...

[TexasObserver]

65. That's not how class action cases work.

But don't let that stop your Sean Hannity rant.

[-..__...]

71. You must be a real fun guy at parties.

[TexasObserver]

72. You must be a real fungi, everywhere.

Yes, I'm in great demand.

The funny thing is that guys like you ALWAYS want free legal advice when they're at a party.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JonQ]

89. That seems to be your modus operandi

Come here to assign blame to the party most easily sued, claim you know everything about the law, that lawyers are flawless defenders of the downtrodden, then call anyone who disagrees as rightwing hack.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Hmm I have been at them... as part of EMS

and one of our nightmares was security failing to do their job in keeping the crowds AWAY from the stage

I used to tell my people, they break through... jump UNDER the stage and crawl away until the fun is over

Wallymart didn't do the kind of crowd control THEY SHOULD

But mark my words, the people who trampled the employe will face the music, not the retailer.

[onenote]

45. interestingly, however, the concert industry did not reform itself after the Who concert tragedy

The OP contains a link that discusses a task force report prepared following the Who crowd tragedy. However, some authorities contend that the concert industry ultimately ignored most of the recommendations in that report and that in the years that followed, people continued to be killed and injured in incidents occuring at concerts. Were these deaths preventable? Hard to know.

http://www.crowdsafe.com/cafe/who20.html

What I do know is that, in 1975 (four years before the Who concert tragedy) I was in a crowd waiting to see the Rolling Stones at RFK Stadium in DC. It was a general admission show. People (including me and some of my friends) camped out over night. It was incredibly warm and muggy (it was July 4th weekend). When morning came, a large crowd gathered to await the opening of the gates. When the gates started up the crowd surged forward. I remember the terrifying feeling of being pushed along by the crowd, my feet literally lifted off the ground.

[flvegan]

77. Even in a mosh pit, you pick the fallen back up.

One concert I went to a long time ago, there was a rush to the stage and Mike D (Beastie Boys) asked folks to take a step back because people were getting squished. The audience complied, and fun resumed. Now if one guy with a mic can do that to 3,000 crazed (and many drunken) folks, why didn't someone get to the WalMart PA and address the throng as soon as the push appeared overwhelming.

[Dukkha]

83. I had a similar incident at a Nine Inch Nails show

it was a surprise club performance in 93 for the release of The Downward Spiral. People were getting so crazy the front speaker towers almost came down they had to ask everyone to step back and chill out a bit. At another NIN show some girl was getting crushed so everyone picked her up and crowd surfed her to the front so security could carry her to safety. Funny how agro punks can show more courtesy to others than greedy Wal Mart mobs.

Reminds me of a Peter Gabriel Womad concert I was at in Golden Gate Park where he brought the show to a complete stop because of unruly fans in the front. He announced on the mic “Chill out! This is about respecting one another! Ok, third verse” and resumed.

[deaniac21]

85. Or Haji...

http://www.worldtravelguide.net/news/1812/news/Stampede-kills-350-during-Haji's-celebrations-in-Saudi-Arabia.html

[okieinpain]

86. disagree, prince concert at lloyd nobel center, oklahoma city.

my wife was 5 months pregnant so it damn sure wasn't us bullies at the front that was doing the pushing.

[TexasObserver]

94. Here's the lesson: Listen to lawyers if you want to know that the law is.

Assorted posters who don't know what premises liability is cannot possibly know why Walmart will is liable for this event, as they have proved on this thread.