This man is going to die soon, at the age of 23. Causa mortis: religious idiocy.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

Joaquim Raimundo Neto, 23, suffers from myeloid leukemia. Doctors say a blood transfusion and a bone marrow transplant can save his life. His mother, a Jehovah's Witness, talked him into foregoing the prescribed treatment (with which he had initially agreed) and leave with her to pursue "alternative" treatment.

Link (in Portuguese): http://www.mp.go.gov.br/portalweb/conteudo.jsp?page=11&pageLink=1&conteudo=noticia/d751c459c430ecf9c90c882d7c8a1b90.html

I've known for ages that this happens a lot, but seeing the picture of a living, breathing person that is going to die that way is a kick in the stomach.

Excuse me while I scream.

[sharp_stick]

1. At 23 it's up to him

he's an idiot IMO and evidence of Darwins theories.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

3. A domineering mother's pressure can be an awesome force.

I don't fault him for not being strong enough to resist. He's a victim, period.

[Dorian Gray]

46. I agree

Poor guy. I hope that he dies without too much pain. I do think it was horrible short-sighted of his mother to pressure him into accepting how she wanted him to be treated. Poor guy.

[BoneDaddy]

53. Absolute Bull

Sorry but you cannot victimize EVERYONE. God I hate this form of thinking. You do more damage to this man, this adult by infantalizing him and neutering him, then his mother is by her nonsense.
He IS NOT A VICTIM. He is an adult and that is HIS choice. A bad, sad choice but his choice.
Crap like this damages people because they can always blame their lives on other people. If this was a 7 or 14 year old, I would agree with you but he is an adult.

[Kalyke]

63. Thank you.

I was about to make this exact point. A mother can only be domineering to her ADULT children if they allow it to occur.

[BoneDaddy]

65. Right

and if we keep extending the age of self determination way beyond the irrational, no one will ever be accountable for anything. Adults cannot blame anyone else for their choices unless they are violently attacked or coerced.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

57. His survival instinct should have kicked in by now

If not, he falls under Darwin's theory.

If he can't leave the nest, he dies.

[NashVegas]

6. Gotta Cull the Herd ...

[sandnsea]

7. JWs practice "shunning"

He would pretty much be losing his entire family and social structure if he chose the transfusion. Very sad.

[YOY]

8. Sometimes Eugenics just happen.

n.t.

[roguevalley]

24. they are both going to learn a lesson when he dies, he that he

cannot give his life into another's hands and her, that she is a stupid idiot. he will be back. we all come back. maybe he will come back wiser.

[RedCappedBandit]

25. "he will be back"

This is exactly the kid of thinking that will kill this person. Maybe I misunderstood you?

[roguevalley]

58. you did. I believe we live over and over again. regardless of what

we do in this life, we get more chances. I guess my spiritualism didn't translate.

RV, who grew up with Christian Scientists and Jehovah Witnesses and knows the mindset well.

[opihimoimoi]

29. This Shit violates Logic, Reason, Sanity, Truth, Goodness, Compassion,.....so needless and so tragic

What a Waste...

[roguevalley]

59. it is.

[kcass1954]

37. She won't learn any lessons from this.

He's going to die because "it's God's will."

[roguevalley]

60. and when she dies, she will know then she was wrong. I agree. she

probably is too calcified to see the awful truth.

[ldf]

38. and his mother won't learn squat

she will actually twist logic in a way to support it.

all this crap we are seeing is based on religion.

and no one in authority will call it what it is, afraid that they will offend someone.

religion is the worst concept ever fabricated by man. no one needs fairy tales to justify treating their fellow human with respect and dignity. and a lot of those practicing religion are the LAST to express respect and dignity for others.

[hyphenate]

40. Heh

>>>>>evidence of Darwins theories<<<<<

Hmmm....then explain to me why there are still so many goddamned fundies still around, reproducing? If there is supposed to be evidence of Darwin's theory, these moronic twits would have been long gone by now!

:hide:

I'm an atheist (as one can see by my sig) so it really doesn't matter all that much, but I know we'd be a better world if all the fundamentalists in the world, of one persuasion or another, would just stop reproducing and give the rest of us, believers AND non-believers, a break. As Satchmo would say, "what a wonderful world!" Amen, brothers and sisters! *high five*

[knitter4democracy]

2. I saw a boy once going through hell because of that.

A boy with hydrocephaly who just needed a shunt whose parents refused all medical intervention. He died not long after my field experience day with his class. He was obviously suffering, and it was so hard to see that.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

4. No, wait, don't tell me: Christian Scientists, right? -nt

[YOY]

5. Jehova's Witnesses actually.

n/t

[knitter4democracy]

23. It was Jehovah's Witnesses in that particular case.

It was so sad to see him suffer like that so needlessly. A simple procedure to put the shunt in, and he could've lived a mostly normal life. By the time I saw him, his head was the size of a serving platter, and he only had brain stem function plus maybe a little other brain function left.

[Warpy]

9. He's able to make his own decisions

even if you don't like them.

I can well understand not wanting to go through a bone marrow transplant. The procedure is lengthy and miserable and risk is high, even if a donor is found in time.

Yes, his chances for living to 25 would be greatly improved were he to find a donor and have the procedure. The alternative treatment will cost a lot of money and fail, although it will be considerably less miserable than the transplant.

Perhaps as he gets more miserable from his disease, he'll change his mind. It might even be in time. However, he owns his own body and gets to determine what happens to it. I doubt his JW mother would have been as persuasive had he not been weighing his options already.

[ladjf]

10. That is a case of manslaughter and should be prosecuted as such. nt

[shireen]

35. totally agree ... mom is guilty. nt

[BoneDaddy]

55. Mom is guilty of thinking irrationally

but she is not guilty of his choice.

[LeftishBrit]

50. I don't think so, as the man is an adult and his mother isn't actually forcing him

even if she's persuaded him. I think it's really tragic when people are that influenced by religious or other dogma not to seek medical treatment. At the same time, adults need to be able to make medical decisions for themselves, including refusal of life-saving treatment, or you are on a very slippery slope. It should be noted that bone marrow transplants are a very painful, arduous form of treatment, and if they don't work can lead to a death that is arguably more horrible than dying from the leukemia. Typically, the chance of such a transplant working is about 50-50, depending very much on the exact type of leukemia, and how closely matched the donor is. Probably most people of this patient's age would choose the transplant after considering the odds; but a significant minority wouldn't, and IMO such a decision should be accepted. And if you are prepared to accept patient choice in such matters, you have to accept patient choice even if it's based on fundamentalist ideology (which is not limited to religion; some people are fanatically against all forms of western medicine, which is VERY frustrating to people like me, but nevertheless has to be accepted as part of patient choice).

If a parent refuses treatment for their children on ideological grounds, that is another matter, and the state should be able to override parental rights.

[ladjf]

62. I didn't notice that the patient was an adult. You are correct. nt

[BoneDaddy]

54. No, this is a case of a man who is making his decision.

And making him not accountable for it is worse than what his sicko mother is doing.

[ladjf]

61. I agree. I didn't notice that the patient was an adult. nt

[ipfilter]

11. We used to have some Christian Scientists

neighbors who let their 18 month old baby die of a simple infection. They refused medical treatment due to their religion, yet when the baby was near death the mother called 911 anyway. It was too late and they could not save the baby. It makes no sense to me how she could let the baby suffer until near death and then call 911 anyway.

[snake in the grass]

12. Another Darwin Award candidate.

[Lerkfish]

13. well, I may disagree with his religion, but its his choice.

and on the good side, that means more available to others who want and need it.

His moral code does not hurt another person, only himself. I may find it a waste, but its his waste.

[NashVegas]

14. All Joking Aside

The story says the treatment "can" save his life; it doesn't say it will.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

15. As opposed to the religiously correct woo-woo which will get him killed with 100% probability. -nt

[NashVegas]

18. Probably

But that's besides the point.

[Deep13]

16. Sorry, he's basing his decision on a demonstrably false belief.

Free choice has to be based on an informed decision. His parents spent his whole life making sure he believes things that are false. As a result, his life is over. This is a suicide because he thinks god requires him to kill himself. When people believe false things, tragedy happens. If he alone thought that transfering blood was a mortal sin, he would be adjudged insane and the choice would be taken away from him. Because a lot of people believe it, it becomes a religious right.

My understanding is that a marrow transplant is a lot worse for the donor than for the recipient. Anyway, even if there is a good reason for choosing death, that is not the reason he is doing it.

[LeftishBrit]

73. Not really true that a marrow transplant is worse for the donor.

It's not particularly pleasant for the donor, but it isn't dangerous. For the recipient, there are a number of dangers. They have their immune system virtually shut down in preparation for the transplant and until it starts to work; so any small infection can kill them. They have to be totally isolated during that period. If rejection occurs, it essentially involves not the person's body rejecting the new organ (as in a failed kidney transplant, for example), but the new bone marrow - which constitutes much of the immune system - rejecting the recipient's body. If not controlled, this causes a horrible illness called graft versus host disease, which is often fatal. This is less likely to happen if the donor and recipient are closely matched; but unless they are actually identical twins, it is always a possibility. Also, it doesn't always cure the leukemia.

Most people of 23 would still choose to have the transplant. The outcomes become less good as people get older, or in those who have other serious health problems; and many older people, especially those over 50, would choose *not* to have it. So the decision is not a simple one; and I think it should be up to the patient. Even though it's sad when people choose on the basis of what seems like a delusion.

[LeftinOH]

17. Attention Mr Neto: Your religion was started by some guy in Pittsburgh;

is it worth dying over this?

[deadmessengers]

19. I thought it was Brooklyn?

Or is that just where they're based now? I used to work in downtown Brooklyn and would get harrassed by JWs going in and out the subway station all the time.

[Dorian Gray]

47. That's where their headquarters is

Underneath the Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridges. (It's huge.)

[edhopper]

20. What does where the religion start

have anything to do with it. Are the big three more real because they started in the "Holy Land"?
There is plenty wrong with JW that has nothing to do with Pittsburgh (no I'm not from there.)

[RedCappedBandit]

27. It has everything to do with it

All religions were created by "some guy" when you get down to it. The idea that "god's word" is in the bible or any other religious text is something a schizophrenic would make up.

[CBGLuthier]

28. Wrong

Christian Science was created by some gal, not some guy.


I am an atheist but I can not understand why anyone here thinks this is any of their business or concern. I ask the religious to leave me along to live my life and I think I can extend the same courtesy to them.

He is an adult. He believes, whether any of us like it or not, in a god and an afterlife. Rant rail and wail all you like there will always be religion. And again, so long as they leave me the hell along I just don't care.

[RedCappedBandit]

31. Well, I call everyone "guy" and "dude" so there!

Of course, this may be why I don't have a girlfriend... :shrug:

[edhopper]

32. I was responding to the "Pittsburgh" part

of the post. Not the "some guy" part. If you reread my op, you will see that.

[RedCappedBandit]

33. I gotcha..

Sorry, I was just elaborating on the basic premise of the post you were responding to.. i should have put my words elsewhere.

[mondo joe]

43. Every religion had to start somewhere. Pittsburgh is no more crazy than some desert.

I don't believe in any of them, but I don't think point of origin on the map is the critical factor.

[Dukkha]

21. so when he dies, and he will, does that mean his God hates him?

or will they fabricate yet another faith loophole to mask any disbelief

[RedCappedBandit]

26. It'll be part of "his plan"

Idiots have a way of justifying their idiocy.

[Odin2005]

22. Like I always say, religion is a mental illness.

[Lyric]

30. My Mom had AML about 8 years ago.

The survival rate is low for adults, even *with* treatment. The survival rate without it is pretty much nil. Somehow, my family was granted a miracle; after a stem cell transplant and intense chemotherapy, Mom made it through, and has been cancer-free for 8 years.

I hope this man changes his mind.

[Nexus7]

71. Congratulations!

The miracle was granted to you because your family did the hard work of deciding, getting the help of the available medicine, going through chemo.

What the moron in the story if doing is suicide. What his mom is doing is murder.

[LisaL]

34. If he was a child, court could potentially interfere.

As it is, he is an adult. Unless he decides to get the treatment, nothing could be done. Sad.

[GreenPartyVoter]

36. That poor kid

[mondo joe]

39. He's an adult. His choice. NT

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

41. I find this "choice" akin to an adult woman's choice to accept a nice job offer overseas

that ends up being sex slavery.

"She's an adult. Her choice." would be hardly a sensible comment. I think the same applies here.

[mondo joe]

42. That's how some people feel about the choice to abort, too.

I don't see any legitimate basis on which to deny adults the right to make choices about their own body.

Additionally, your analogy foolishly conflates one act of choice with unseen circumstances with this. This person is clearly aware that death is a possible consequence.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

48. The difference here is an informed choice versus conning.

By the way, a woman being pressured to abort when she doesn't actually want to (perhaps by a lazy father who doesn't want the responsibility) is just as bad.

[mondo joe]

49. You're concluding the young man is being unduly pressured.

If he's being coerced that's illegal.

If he's not, he's a mentally competent adult and legally entitled to make his own choices. Even stupid ones.

(And women choose to abort for a variety of reasons, and sometimes it's really not their ideal choice - but it's still their choice.)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

51. Seems probable, yes. Given that, initially, he had AGREED to the treatment. -nt

[mondo joe]

52. And people change their minds. If there is evidence he is being coerced, action should

be taken. Otherwise, he's free to make his choice. And choice has never existed in isolation from personal, societal or practical considerations.

[Selatius]

44. Reason suggests he will die without proven treatments involved.

He is old enough to make his own decisions legally speaking, for better or for worse. In this situation, likely for the worst. He should spend the rest of his days trying to live life to his fullest.

[yodoobo]

45. He's going to die regardless. Its just a question of when and why

I share with you the same revulsion. Why turn down a perfectly viable treatment that could allow you to live another 50 years or more?

But at the same time. In the blink of eye in historical terms, he will be dead no matter what he does. We are all going to the same place.

He's an adult and apparently in full control of his mental faculties. How he lives and dies is his decision.

[shadowknows69]

56. Can I have his health insurance then?

[TZ]

64. Thats a painful way to die.

Maybe the intense pain will make him change his mind, although by that point it might be too late...:(

[qwlauren35]

66. If it had been his choice, no mom, would you be okay with it?

I think it should be okay for someone to decide that if it's their time, then it's their time.

I respect the idea of fighting for survival... up to a point.

However, I think we Americans have really failed to understand that with life comes death. We are so terrified of death that we will spend hundreds of thousands, and maybe millions of dollars, often of someone else's money, to avoid it.

At the same time that people around the globe are starving and dying every day from the simplest things... like hunger. Or gunfire.

I respect the right of a church community, OR an individual, to accept disease and death as part of life, and welcome it, UNLESS their GOD chooses to intervene... and the likelihood is that their God will not.

We would be a humbler nation of more of us accepted disease and death, and made the most of the time we had, knowing that death was an inevitable part of life... and perhaps not one to shy away from.

I'm sure thta 23 seems young. But if you haven't walked in that kid's shoes, don't preach. There are children and teens who make that choice. To stop living in a hospital and accept death rather than be a guinea pig for new treatments. There are some people who do not consider radiation, chemotherapy and surgery to be THEIR answer for cancer.

It has to be okay for people to choose and accept death, without someone else insisting that they live.

Okay, it doesn't have to be. Heck, there are laws AGAINST it. But I don't agree with them. At all.

[xchrom]

67. in some form or another -- we all fall prey to the

will of others.

i can see by the reaction in this thread -- that notion causes some fear reaction.

[ddeclue]

68. Hey it's a free country...

I thought we believed that people had a right to die as they see fit and a right to believe what they want religiously. He's an adult and it's his decision. Let him make it.

Doug D.

[Forkboy]

69. Oh well. His choice, and none of my business, dumb as I think it is.

[Tight_rope]

70. Not the first time that I've heard of this same situation!

I use to work for a group of oncologist and for years in the Monday morning meeting with the doctors and nurses there always see to be the topic of a particular patient who had Sicko-cell was a Jehovah's witness. It seemed that he was hospitalized almost every weekend. However, many began to realize that he was just addicted to the pain killers that he could only receive when hospitalized.

[anonymous171]

72. It's his choice. nt