Obama's loyalty gap growing -- Howard Dean gets screwed over

[nichomachus]

The guy who is probably single-handedly responsible for giving Obama overwhelming majorities in Congress is being screwed over by the incoming administration.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/21/AR2008122102081.html

And yet, it's hard not to see Dean as a lesson in how political hardball is played in Washington. Never liked by establishment party figures -- Dean publicly feuded with incoming White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel (Ill.) when the latter headed the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee during the 2006 election cycle -- Dean finds himself on the outside looking in as a new Democratic administration comes to tow

Dean was widely disparaged within the party for his "50-state strategy" -- a plan to put DNC-paid staffers on the ground in every state to ensure the party fielded a competitive slate of candidates. Yet, the 2006 and 2008 elections seemed to justify Dean's decision as Democrats won in such states as North Carolina, Virginia, Alabama, Kansas and Idaho -- places that, as recently as a few elections ago, were considered impenetrable.

"The winning strategy and business plan that Governor Dean put in place helped make Democrats competitive again up and down the ballot from Indiana to Alaska to Mississippi," said DNC spokeswoman Karen Finney.

A source familiar with Dean's 2004 presidential campaign and his DNC chairmanship argued not only that the former governor's presidential bid lay the technological foundation for Obama's successes but also that the chairman's unbending enforcement of the primary rules -- stripping Florida and Michigan of their delegates and their meaningfulness -- played a large role in Obama's victory over Hillary Rodham Clinton. "I guess it proves that no good deed goes unpunished," the source said.

In other words, no matter how much you do for Obama -- keep your back to the wall at all times. The gays have learned that. Now, Howard Dean has learned that. And Rick Warren hasn't even called down God's blessing on his main man Obama yet.

[yardwork]

1. If the Democratic Party rejects Howard Dean, we will be very sorry.

[MADem]

23. It has already happened. He's, as Heidi Klum would say "OUT."

The job he asked for was given to Daschle.

[yardwork]

138. That was stupid, Plain stupid. Compare their two records. Which did more for electing Dems?

[MADem]

144. Yardwork, it may have been stupid, but it has happened.

I am not talking about who "deserves" recognition, or who doesn't. I am limiting my commentary to FACTS.

There is no chair for Howard Dean at the Obama table. There will BE NO CHAIR for Howard Dean at the Obama table.

He has been advised that he's OUT of the DNC, to pack his bags and make way for Obama's appointee. His people are saying he'll do extragovernmental "policy work" (think tank, maybe?).

Key elements of the DNC have already been removed from the new digs McAuliffe put up in DC, and either relocated to CHICAGO or told to go home to their states and find work in the state structures, or told to look for work elsewhere. And Dean's FIFTY STATE STRATEGY has been shut down, folded up and put away. Some say they will resurrect it as needed, but the paid members of the Fifty State team got their last paychecks and their pink slips LAST MONTH, right after the election.

He's OUT...like Heidi says.

It's a new day, it's a new boss, it's a new way.

I have no idea how they'll run it, but they seem to have some sort of plan in mind, based on all the relocating and reallocating.

[Cronopio]

167. "may have been stupid" read "absolutely and indisputably was stupid"

Even people who believe it's politically inexpedient to acknowledge Dean's hard work, intelligence, and dedication to the Dem's successes *know* how much he's done for the Dems, and by relation, for Obama.

It's a very, very bad sign to send to the troops. The one who was dead wrong about the 50 state strategy (Rahm) gets to the top of the list and the one who was right, and who was one of the best Chairmen the DNC has had, gets shown the door.

The message: Like the Republicans, the Democratic Party is not a meritocracy of anyone but the well-acquainted. That's not good enough, and it's not change, by any definition.

[MADem]

171. The unfortunate truth: Where are those troops gonna go?

See, like the gay folks who are griping at Obama's Warren pick, what's their recourse? Where can they go? To where can they shift their loyalty?

There isn't anywhere they can go that will matter. The Greens? The Reform Party? Some other fringe group without clout?

The Deaniacs aren't going to go to the GOP....unless the GOP does a flip that's as huge as the one that LBJ did on the issue of civil rights with his GREAT SOCIETY.

It would be funny to watch, though--if the Party of Lincoln actually BECAME the Party of Lincoln, and started getting into civil and human rights. I'm not counting on that happening, though. Pigs will probably fly first.

The truth of the matter is, the party leadership KNOW that they're in the catbird seat, right now. And the loyal troops have no choice but to STFU and say Father Knows Best, even if they don't like it.

And that Fifty State Strategy? It's been dismantled, basically. The people have been "let go," they're not getting a paycheck anymore, they've been sent away and told to seek work in their state apparatus.

This is the Sausage Making part of it all. Those of us who cautioned the shovel wavers that there was no pony under that pile of shit are sadly vindicated. It's not a terribly satisfying feeling, though.

[MADem]

24. Crap, doubleclick. Excuse me! nt

[Captain Hilts]

2. Wesley Clark has also worked HARD for a Democratic Congress. Pffffft. nt

[Kalyke]

30. And would have been a MUCH better pick for State.

Hell, Clark's actually had to broker peace treaties, meet on a working level with heads of state (not just shake their hands and smile) and has the backing of both Jews and Muslims.

No brainer, if you ask me.

[MADem]

35. Naaah. No one's a better pick than Clinton. She's a twofer, and there isn't

a person in the entire world who doesn't know who she is.

Wes Clark, though, could walk around many cities here in the US unmolested.

He's not a bad guy, he just doesn't have that "cachet."

Most of the grunt work at State is done by career civil service underlings. The "Big Name" is in charge of Big Ideas, and flies in to give our allies a bit of favorable world press whenever anything "important" goes down.

Clinton is a Big Name and she can deliver the kind of cachet we haven't seen in a SECSTATE since Kissinger (I'm not talking about his politics, mind you, I'm talking about his star power and name recognition).

[Kalyke]

60. I don't want a big name.

After Condi, I want someone who knows what the hell they're doing.

[MADem]

65. She knows what she's doing. And she's a big name.

She's the best pick on the entire cabinet, IMO. Regardless, the deed is done. You won't get what you want.

Condi wasn't a "big name." She didn't get the same respect that Clinton will. She was an expert on the former USSR who had a worldview that revolved around that area of expertise. She also made plenty of missteps, and didn't have many successes. She had trouble thinking outside the box.

[Mudoria]

124. I think Condi's biggest problem was who she was working for..

what leader around the world would take seriously what she proposed knowing full well the real decision maker was "The Dick" Cheney? Smart woman and probably very capable of being a fine SoS but when you're basically put in the position of being a water carrier it's hard to shine.

[Captain Hilts]

130. BINGO!

[Captain Hilts]

129. Well, you've got someone who actually listens to other people's views and advice. nt

[Cronopio]

168. "... he just doesn't have that 'cachet.'"

Haven't we had enough of the cachet fetish in politics? GWBush had cachet in 2000, and look where that's gotten the country. Bill Clinton did not have cachet in 1991, and fortunately the country knew better.

Cachet doesn't cut it. We need experience, and as far as the Secretary of State job is concerned, Clark has much more relevent experience than Clinton does. This country needs experience and competence, not cachet.

[Captain Hilts]

128. I LOVE Clark but disagree.

He's too intense to spend that much time in a room with him.

I wanted him for Veep.

[AllentownJake]

3. Probably good advice for anyone in politics or business

:shrug:

[babylonsister]

4. Did you ever consider Dean might have other plans?

Because one writer writes this, it doesn't make it so. Was he privy to any conversations between Dean and Obama? I didn't think so.

[cali]

14. Sorry, no. Dean badly wanted an appointment. He was going for HHS

This is hardly a secret.

[Jennicut]

19. Yes, but so was Daschle and Daschle was one of Obama's mentors

since the beginning of the campaign.

[Radical Activist]

64. Yes. Daschle did far, far more than Dean to help Obama.

Not even close.

[rhett o rick]

163. Are you being sarcastic? nm

[Radical Activist]

182. No.

Daschle's early fundraising, staff and other support was crucial in the primary.

[rhett o rick]

184. Well that's not too convincing. I assume you prefer Rahm Emanuel over Howard Dean?

As far as Daschle, I will never forgive him. In the build up for war with Iraq, when some of us were screaming at the tv, "Don't trust bush", Daschle gave a very passion speech about every of the many reasons NOT to go to war, not to illegally invade Iraq, he got me very excited that at least someone saw the truth. But at the end of his lengthy speech, he said he would support bush, he would support our illegal invasion. He crushed me. To me he isn't worth the dog shit on Howard Dean's shoe. Just my opinion. Rahm and the DLC will lead Obama to the dark side, if they haven't already.

[Radical Activist]

185. That's a knee jerk reaction.

The fact that you dislike Daschle doesn't change the fact that he put in a lot of hard work and effort to get Obama elected. Far more than Dean, who stayed neutral in the primary. Everything you wrote about Daschle has absolutely nothing to do with what he did to get Obama elected. Feel free to google and inform yourself. And please don't bother with the "you made the claim so you give me link because I'm lazy" thing. This is common knowledge and you'll find plenty of references about Daschle helping Obama.

Dean's 50 state strategy was a good idea but it played a minor role in helping Obama at best. The DNC operation was minuscule and inconsequential compared to Obama's large grass roots operation, which also took over the DNC when they moved the DNC staff to Chicago.

The fact that I live in the real world and recognize what Daschle did has nothing to do with how much I like Rahm. Where did that comment even come from? Do you still think its the world against Dean and you have to fight for him? The "us v. them" I see among some lingering Dean fanatics isn't healthy or realistic.

[rhett o rick]

187. I guess you are pointing out my naivete. I want to believe that Dean's 50 state strategy

and all of us many volunteers with our small donations and our tireless efforts were responsible for Obama's win. But maybe you're right. Maybe we were played for fools. It probably was the insiders like Rahm and Daschle and the DLC and the big money that really were behind the win. I was caught up in the dream of democracy. I am a hopeless fool.

Oh yes, i felt Dean being neutral during the primary was a good thing.

And I don't understand your name, Radical Activist. How radical is supporting Rahm Emanuel and Daschle and the DLC insiders?

[Radical Activist]

213. Why do you assume

that I'm all for Rahm and the DLC? Just because I criticize Dean? Your mindset that it's the world against Dean and anyone who criticizes Dean must be "them" is unrealistic and unproductive.

I'm to the left of Dean and realize that he was never more than a moderate who sometimes used progressive language to bring in people who are more impressed by rhetoric than a persons actual record in office. So you see, I can recognize that Daschle was key too Obama's victor and it doesn't make me a DLC Democrat. It just means I live in the real world.

Dean's 50 state strategy was important for building up the party but its impact is more important for local parties and Congressional races than the Presidential race. Giving credit to Dean for Obama's campaign plan is ridiculous. Keep things in perspective.

[jbnow]

217. I really like Dean and his 50 state strategy is a winner

but Obama didn't rely on Dean in his campaign planning, that is he was an (almost) 50 state believer himself and would have widened the campaign Dean or not.

But I really wish he had (or will) included Dean in his administration.

I'm guessing Rahm was chosen for his position because Obama has known him so long and sees how to use him effectively and not anything about core beliefs. Time will tell

[rvablue]

192. Yes, but when Daschle was Sen. Maj. Leader, our party was sinking like a stone.

And Dr. Dean saved us and paved the way for 2008.

Neglecting the contributions of Dr. Dean will only send us back in time.

[babylonsister]

21. He did? I must have missed that. Do you have a link, because

I'm having trouble finding one. Thanks.

[MADem]

28. That's a centerpiece of the OP's originally cited article.

Did he jump, or was he pushed?

He asked, and he did not receive:

Less than a week after Obama's victory last month, Dean announced he would not seek a second term as DNC chairman -- a decision cast by those friendly to Dean as his own but made with a recognition that the incoming president would like his own pick atop the party.


Dean then made a play to be secretary of health and human services in the Obama administration but was quickly shot down in favor of former senator Tom Daschle of South Dakota, a confidante of the president-elect.

[babylonsister]

40. I just recall enormous amounts of speculation from everyone.

I don't recall Dean expressing any desire for the job, though I suppose that might have been seen as tacky had he done so.

I'm sure Dr. Dean will land on his feet. I have a lot of respect for the man and his herculean efforts with his 50-state strategy that helped Obama succeed.

[MADem]

62. Well, Daschle had been a contender for a long time.

And Daschle goes back to the CLINTON ADMIN (with HRC) on Health Care issues.

I rather doubt, given those two facts, that Dean would go public and risk humiliating himself, particularly with Chief Of Staff Rahm Emmanuel (not his buddy) no doubt weighing in on every pick. I'll bet Dean did put out private feelers, though. If he didn't, he'd be denying these stories that he wanted the job and didn't get it. He's, after all, not the type of guy to sit back and be a wallflower when his stance is misrepresented.

[tan guera]

153. MAdem

Do you have a link for this? :-)

[MADem]

53. EVERYONE is saying the same thing. They aren't close.

It's not just one writer. Writers from the left and the right say the same thing.

The prevailing wisdom is that Dean and Rahm E. don't like each other. Rahm cut Dean out.

Dean "has other plans" because Dean wasn't invited to take the job he asked for--the one that Daschle got.

Examples:

It's now clear -- with the Cabinet all but filled out -- that Dean won't be a member of the Obama Administration, at least not at a senior level.

So, what will Dean do when he hands over the gavel to his successor on Jan. 21?

It's easier to answer what he won't do -- go back to Vermont where he spent a decade as the state's chief executive. "He is going to stay in public policy," said one source familiar with Dean's thinking. "He's not going back to Vermont."

...That Dean who, inarguably, ushered in an era of person to person politics linked by technology, finds himself as a man without a home speaks to the vast chasm between how he is perceived by the netroots and the party regulars.

Dean is beloved as a prophet by the blogosphere and derided as a flash-in-the-pan by many within the party establishment. The truth, as always, likely lies somewhere in between those two extremes.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/12/the_decline_of_dean.html?wprss=rss_blog

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
....(Asked by talk-show host D.L. Hughley if he felt "vindicated," Dean joked, "I might have been right, but I'd rather be chief of staff.") ...


After a historic election night, on November 5, the fifty-state strategy's nearly 200 local organizers woke up to the news that their contracts were expiring on November 30. The e-mail from headquarters called it a "bittersweet moment." Until further notice, the program had taken a leave of absence. Once again, the party's grassroots activists were on their own, awaiting marching orders.

Dean and his allies are hopeful that the strategy is simply on brief sabbatical, while the Obama administration conducts a postelection review and decides whom to install as new leader (surprisingly few names have been floated for the job). "I think they'll do it their way, but I think they'll continue it because it worked for them," Dean says. "This is the candidate who expanded the playing field in a way we haven't seen for a long, long time." In 2007, at the beginning of the Democratic primary, the state chairs persuaded all the potential nominees to commit to funding the fifty-state strategy should they become president. Now they're looking for Obama to keep his pledge. "We've made it very clear that we think the program was a great success, and we'd like to see it continue," says Mark Brewer, head of the Michigan Democratic Party and head of the state chairs.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090105/berman/single

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Howard Dean and DL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEMhtPiEyyc&eurl=http://chicagoist.com/2008/12/12/rahmbo_roundup.php

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Captain Hilts]

139. Emmanuel couldn't cut Dean out if Obama didn't want to keep him out. nt

[MADem]

140. I agree wholeheartedly. Obama IS in charge. He's not a victim of dark forces.

He has a plan and an agenda, and people like Rahm Emmanuel are his servants in executing his wishes. He says jump, they say how high.

He's not being manipulated in any way, shape or form.

[Captain Hilts]

141. Reminds me of naive wives saying their husbands would be perfect but for the friends he has. nt

[MADem]

145. Ummm hmmmm!

The DEVIL made him do it! He was "led astray!"

[liberal N proud]

5. The media created the fight between Obama and the Clinton's and now

Hillary is Secretary of State. Some war.

Now they have Obama fighting Dean. Wake up people, the media is going to exploit any disagreement between Democratic leaders to the point of all out war.

And we will eat it up.

[disndat]

43. H.C. was given

S of S to leave her spot open for C. Kennedy to whom, together with Ted, Obama owed the most for his new day job, except for Oprah. That is why I think C.K to fill H.C.'s seat is a done deal. It will be great for N.Y.S. because C.K. will have an inside line to the WH. The reason why Bloomberg is an enthusiastic C.K. booster and also Gov. D. Paterson benefits, if C.K is to become N.Y.S. Senator. Neat?

[guruoo]

63. Using Warren and Dean to turn Obama's base against him before he even enters office

And you're right -we'll just keep eating it up.

[MADem]

67. The media didn't create the primary. It's not the same.

Obama and Clinton actually were competitors--that's not media spin, it's fact. They did go hammer and tongs at it -- we saw the debates.

What brought them together is that Obama decided to merge with the Clinton machine rather than having to watch his back for four years. That's why Clintonistas like Rahm Emmanuel and Tom Daschle (and best friend to the Clintons, Joe Biden) are all on the Obama team. The cabinet looks like the cabinet BILL CLINTON would have selected, if he'd been elected sixteen years later.

It's why the duplicitous Bill Richardson didn't get a "good" job, he just got a job that was "enough" to keep him from pitching a fit and causing big trouble. Rahm Emmanuel, a Clintonista from WAY back, isn't in a fluff job--he's Obama's Rove.

Like it or not, Dean got the short end of the stick, here. It's obvious. One can speculate about the why all day, but the fact that it IS the short end isn't in dispute, really.

[Captain Hilts]

131. Good point. nt

[jody]

6. Add to the list pro-RKBA Dems who wanted to believe Obama would not support renewing the useless

assault weapons ban that would prohibit sale of the most popular semiautomatic firearms used by over 80+ million gun-owners.

Obama supports "making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent" and that threat has driven millions of gun-owners to buy semiautomatic firearms before Obama has a chance to sign a bill prohibiting their sale.

So much for Obama's promise, "I will not take your shotgun away. I will not take your rifle away. I won't take your handgun away."

[Political Tiger]

7. Impeach! Impeach!!

Obama must be impeached, preferably before he is sworn in!

:sarcasm:

[QC]

10. Worship mindlessly! Worship mindlessly! n/t

[Jennicut]

13. You know those who constantly worship AND constanstly bash

are both doing the same thing on opposite ends of the spectrum

[Political Tiger]

16. Whine endlessly! Whine endlessly!

:cry:

[Donnachaidh]

27. Resistance is Futile --

Haven't assimilated as many as you hoped, huh?

[baby_mouse]

32. Not cutting it.

[Donnachaidh]

26. don't bots need oil changes on occasion?

We can hear the gears grinding from here. :sarcasm:

[QC]

156. Nah, just a serving of Kool-Aid now and then. n/t

[Maven]

8. This is sad. Howard Dean is a huge asset to the party

and he shouldn't be swept aside this way.

[QC]

9. Why do you hate America? Why? n/t

[Missy Vixen]

11. Proud to be the 5th K&R

Howard Dean is one of the few reasons I remain within the Democratic Party. Of COURSE we can't have his fifty-state strategy and fundraising prowess around anymore! Rahm doesn't like him!

I seem to remember multiple people telling me that I'd be "surprised". Oh, I'm definitely surprised. I actually thought Barack Obama meant it when he talked about "hope" and "change". Screwing over the one person that essentially helped him WIN is not what I'd call a great strategy.

To say that I have been disappointed by PE Obama's decisions thus far is an understatement. The above is just one more tactical blunder, IMHO.

Julie

[defendandprotect]

25. DLC is here to move party to the right ...

It's the corporate wing of DEM Party --

Of course Emmanuel doesn't like 50 state strategy that works for DEM

victories -- or Dean. And Obama's appointment of Emmanuel shows where

his thinking goes.

[napi21]

12. I don't think it's Obama rejecting Dean as much as it is "Washington

Politicians" rejecting him. Howard plays by his own rules, and Washington insiders don't like that. They're all about "I'll help you if you help me" and they simply won't accept anyone who tries to tear that appart.

[Jennicut]

15. or perhpas Obama should be allowed to choose who he wants to

I like Dean. But maybe Obama wanted other people in other roles, why does it constantly have to be Dems pitted against each other? This is the MSM, they want to conquer and divide the Dems. After all, the Rethugs let the big corps who control the MSM keep more of there money in the long run.

[Donnachaidh]

31. so where is the CHANGE that was touted? No more *old school*?

Let me get this straight -- Obama is letting the *old school* run his team? So where EXACTLY is this CHANGE?

[Lilyeye]

41. How about you ask that question when Obama ACTUALLY gets in office.

[Pastiche423]

142. It will be too late then

Duh!

Showing your political ignorance on a progressive board tells all anyone needs to know about your lack of intelligence.

[MADem]

166. If the Deval Patrick template (he ran the Obama campaign on a small scale in MA) is a guide

there will be no change. Business as usual, with a slightly less obnoxious leader.

At least that's what "change" brought us in MA. Oh, and a threat of higher user fees and more taxes, and reduced services...there's not much "believing" going on hereabouts, lately.

[MADem]

74. Obama is the President Elect. With a wave of his hand he can do whatever he wants

when it comes to cabinet and other Presidential appointments, from giving HHS to Dean, to giving Faith Based Initiatives to Rick Warren...if he'd like. Now, he hasn't done either of those, but if he wanted to, he could. He's not being bullied around by "Washington politicians." He's the LEAD DOG in DC. The pack follows HIM.

Don't paint Obama as a helpless victim here.

He is in CHARGE.

These are his decisions.

[MADem]

17. Florida and Michigan were abjectly stupid. And undemocratic.

Dean picked sides instead of staying neutral, that was his problem. And it was a BIG one. He really should not have done that. Consequently, even though Dean helped Obama, Obama has decided that Dean can't be trusted, because it was his job to stay neutral. He could just as easily "turn" on Obama in two shakes of a lamb's tail.

Bill Richardson did the same thing, which is why he got a crappy Cabinet job (Commerce--gee, Obama will be able to point at him and cluck disapprovingly if business doesn't pick up in the USA) instead of his dream jobs, State, or UN Ambassador.

When you pull that kind of crap, winners, even if you side with them, see you as a mendacious, snivelling, toadying cretin who can't be trusted. "If he turned on her, why, he could turn on ME!!! Sure, he cheated for me this last time...but he could cheat against me next time! Off with his head!"

Look at Rahm Emmanuel--a close friend to Clinton for eons, who nonetheless assiduously stayed NEUTRAL. Why? Because he was from IL. End result--he's in the catbird seat. He managed to thread the needle.

[madfloridian]

36. You are rewriting the primary history, turning it upside down. Links.

Updated list of my journal postings about the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1906

Florida Democrats invade Georgia
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1905

Dean told not to plan a vacation in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1902

Court decision on March 17 could determine who Democratic nominee is.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1897

Florida Democrats thought they would only lose "half" the delegates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1903

Dean says FL and MI would not negotiate with the DNC...took it public
instead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1888

Florida, Michigan and the Jackasses That Over-reached
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1890

Tampa op ed: "Arrogance Cost Florida Chance To Influence Election"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1875

Terry McAuliffe wants to change horses in the middle of the stream.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1882

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary
bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

Jeremy Ring (D-FL) said "relevance is more important than "partying" in
Denver.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1836

The worst part is that this very day FL Dems still shift blame....
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1870

Is Hillary's campaign being run as a "shadow DNC" for her benefit?
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1883

More Florida shenanigans and more insults to Dean from that state.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1858

Think I exaggerate about Florida's attitude? Here's a county chairperson's
rant against Dean.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1827

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a
"voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the
DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to
let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local
email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in
chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument
here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone
call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to
Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had
to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1483

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1481

Pelosi says it is not Florida's fault at all. So if the speaker says it I
must be wrong.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1567

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary
that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617

Nobody sued Terry McAuliffe when he said Michigan's delegates would not get
near Boston.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1638

Nelson and Levin of Michigan file the bill today. It's getting deeper
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1741

My postings about the heartbreak of the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1607

Florida Dems at convention have button that says "Screw Dean"...very classy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1608

Senate leader ponders suing 'rogue states' over primary
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1527

[Raster]

48. Thank you very very much!!!

:yourock:

[madfloridian]

51. I keep those handy when someone tries to rewrite history.

:hi:

[Raster]

55. I know you do! And I love it. If not for you and your efforts, the truth about the Florida primary

would have already been rewritten and sanitized at DU. Thanks again!

[MADem]

71. No, I'm not. Dean's actions benefitted the President Elect.

All those links don't dispute that single point.

And Dean wasn't rewarded for his help, either. That's the irony.

Rahm Emmanuel, though, has been a Clinton friend for years.

And THAT's the reason.

Make of it what you will, don't shoot the messenger.

[madfloridian]

75. That is NOT the point and you know it. You accused him of helping Obama win.

Actually it was not about that at all. It was about a chairman who had the guts to stick with the rules with the whole media and establishment Dems (like the Clintons) trying to intimidate him.

Updated list of my journal postings about the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1906

Florida Democrats invade Georgia
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1905

Dean told not to plan a vacation in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1902

Court decision on March 17 could determine who Democratic nominee is.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1897

Florida Democrats thought they would only lose "half" the delegates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1903

Dean says FL and MI would not negotiate with the DNC...took it public
instead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1888

Florida, Michigan and the Jackasses That Over-reached
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1890

Tampa op ed: "Arrogance Cost Florida Chance To Influence Election"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1875

Terry McAuliffe wants to change horses in the middle of the stream.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1882

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary
bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

Jeremy Ring (D-FL) said "relevance is more important than "partying" in
Denver.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1836

The worst part is that this very day FL Dems still shift blame....
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1870

Is Hillary's campaign being run as a "shadow DNC" for her benefit?
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1883

More Florida shenanigans and more insults to Dean from that state.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1858

Think I exaggerate about Florida's attitude? Here's a county chairperson's
rant against Dean.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1827

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a
"voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the
DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to
let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local
email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in
chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument
here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone
call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to
Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had
to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1483

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1481

Pelosi says it is not Florida's fault at all. So if the speaker says it I
must be wrong.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1567

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary
that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617

Nobody sued Terry McAuliffe when he said Michigan's delegates would not get
near Boston.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1638

Nelson and Levin of Michigan file the bill today. It's getting deeper
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1741

My postings about the heartbreak of the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1607

Florida Dems at convention have button that says "Screw Dean"...very classy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1608

Senate leader ponders suing 'rogue states' over primary
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1527

[MADem]

81. I don't "accuse" him of anything. Stop being overly emotional.

His actions DID help Obama win. Obama wasn't a strong candidate in FL. OR MI.

No amount of spinning changes those facts.

And Dean is "on the outs." Clintonistas are part of the "in" crowd.

Again, facts.

They're pesky things.

Call me when Dean gets a cabinet post. I don't advise you to hold your breath.

[madfloridian]

82. You are really over reacting to criticism.....putting the blame elsewhere.

You flat out did not tell the truth.

You tried to make it sound like Dean threw the primaries. That is not true.

You are over reacting because you know you are wrong, and you are using the same old crap argument putting the blame on others.

[MADem]

95. I am not reacting at all. If you think otherwise, you're projecting. That's your issue.

I did tell the truth, I didn't try to "make it sound like" anything. I didn't "put blame" on anyone either. You're too personally invested here. I'm just calling it as I see it. If you don't like it, don't read it.

You're the one who's overreacting. You're calling me names. Saying someone isn't telling the truth is the same as calling them a liar, you know.

[madfloridian]

98. Truth is my issue. There were too many primary lies...no more.

Updated list of my journal postings about the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1906

Florida Democrats invade Georgia
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1905

Dean told not to plan a vacation in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1902

Court decision on March 17 could determine who Democratic nominee is.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1897

Florida Democrats thought they would only lose "half" the delegates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1903

Dean says FL and MI would not negotiate with the DNC...took it public
instead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1888

Florida, Michigan and the Jackasses That Over-reached
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1890

Tampa op ed: "Arrogance Cost Florida Chance To Influence Election"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1875

Terry McAuliffe wants to change horses in the middle of the stream.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1882

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary
bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

Jeremy Ring (D-FL) said "relevance is more important than "partying" in
Denver.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1836

The worst part is that this very day FL Dems still shift blame....
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1870

Is Hillary's campaign being run as a "shadow DNC" for her benefit?
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1883

More Florida shenanigans and more insults to Dean from that state.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1858

Think I exaggerate about Florida's attitude? Here's a county chairperson's
rant against Dean.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1827

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a
"voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the
DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to
let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local
email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in
chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument
here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone
call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to
Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had
to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1483

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1481

Pelosi says it is not Florida's fault at all. So if the speaker says it I
must be wrong.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1567

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary
that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617

Nobody sued Terry McAuliffe when he said Michigan's delegates would not get
near Boston.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1638

Nelson and Levin of Michigan file the bill today. It's getting deeper
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1741

My postings about the heartbreak of the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1607

Florida Dems at convention have button that says "Screw Dean"...very classy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1608

Senate leader ponders suing 'rogue states' over primary
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1527

[MADem]

102. Truth, or whatever you call it, isn't going to get Howard Dean a job. NT

[madfloridian]

104. I don't care about that. He's better on the outside. You are not telling the truth.

That is my point. You are accusing him of throwing the primary to Obama. Dangerous untruths.

[MADem]

111. Yes, I am telling the truth. You can keep moving those Dean goalposts if you'd like.

Dean's Fifty State Strategy team has been dismantled.

He'll be out of a job.

He will probably find a policy post at a think tank, but he'll never have sufficient clout to threaten Obama in any way.

Please stop with the loaded "ewwww, dangerous untruths" language.

You don't like what I'm saying--I get that. Too bad, though, just because you don't like it doesn't make it untrue. You're starting to sound a bit...paranoid. It's unattractive and makes you seem flaky.

Dean did what he did. The result was the result. That's all I'm saying. Get over yourself, dear.

[madfloridian]

114. No, you don't get to make your own truth.

Yes, he's gone from national leadership. I don't deny that. The Clintons are in again big time.

Yay for them.

But he did NOT throw the primary...you are not telling the truth.

[MADem]

116. He did what he did. The result was the result.

That's the last time I'm going to say it.

Stop blaming me for what happened to Chairman Dean. I didn't do it to him--Obama did.

[madfloridian]

117. You accused him of throwing the primary. Dangerous talk and harmful

[MADem]

119. ....

:rofl:

Now, you're making me laugh.

[madfloridian]

121. Harmful distortions of truth...and you laugh about it.

That's a shame.

[MADem]

122. ...

:rofl:

[ieoeja]

120. You are the one who seems to have moved the goalposts.

"Dean picked sides instead of staying neutral"

Completely false. While enforcing the rules may have been to Obama's advantage -- a huge assumption -- your "picking sides" statement implies you believe Dean performed his duties only because he wanted to back Obama. Presumably you believe Dean would have ignored his duties had he felt doing so would have been to Obama's advantage -- that huge assumption again.

Where do you get this idea that Dean did his job only because he thought it would benefit Obama?

[PassingFair]

123. Projection.

The poster can't imagine anyONE doing
anyTHING that didn't personally benefit
them.

Virtue will never be its own reward
for this type...just the way it is.

[MADem]

199. Where do I get the idea?

He wanted a payback--it's why he "approached" for the HHS job. And he DID pick sides by rigidly, viciously enforcing the rules and going over the top with bullshit "awards" of delegates. There WAS wiggle room there, and the rules themselves were foolish and onerous and poorly thought out, no matter WHO agreed to them. Who in their right fucking mind punishes VOTERS for the actions of state party officials? I don't think state party leaders were just dumbfucks--someone, at the national level, was nudge-winking them and telling them that it would all be OK in the end. But it wasn't.

Those voters were effectively disenfranchised. Dean was the architect of that disenfranchisement. And those voters would have brought it home for CLINTON, not Obama.

Dean, too, though, doesn't always follow the script he's given, so that makes him a loaded pistol with the safety off and a hair trigger in an administration that doesn't like surprises. He's an independent thinker. He is sometimes intemperate in his comments. That's not a good fit.

That's the real reason why, from the perspective of those in power, he needs to be defanged. And that's what's happening. He's being defanged. His network is being dismantled. The segments of the DNC that he retooled have been packed up and sent to Chicago. His Fifty State Strategy has been packed up, picked apart into fifty pieces, and given to the state parties. The people who used to work that issue and got DNC paychecks have been "let go."

It doesn't take a genius to see what's happening, here. Dean will have a hard time building a national organization with sufficient clout to be effective over a wide range of issues. He'll have to pick and choose, and settle on a specific area of expertise.

Don't shoot the messenger. I voted for Dean in the primary before he imploded (and my Senator was running, too--it was a coin flip). I actually found his intemperate nature refreshing.

[kenfrequed]

158. But...

The results were good. He did the right thing to help the party win. The democratic party and not just the DLC scum that seem to be trying to shimmy their way into claiming this as their great victory.

Dean's strategy worked and now we are going to go back to business as usual? A march towards increasing corporatization of the democratic party at a time when trust in corporatism and hypercapitalism are on the wane? We are accomodating conservatives more in order to 'get along' when the conservative movement and ideology has been proven fraudulent at best?

Am I the only one that sees this as irrational?

[PassingFair]

165. No, you are NOT alone.

Truth rarely stands alone.

[kenfrequed]

181. Well thank you

Though I will only say that I look at the facts and look at the big ideas and that I believe what I believe to be true. The big 'T' Truth makes me a little nervous when attached too closely to my own name.

[PassingFair]

209. Hey, when you're right...

you're right!

:hi:

[LSK]

127. The Democratic Party is not a dictatorship, COMMITTEES VOTED TO DO THAT

It wasnt some random act with Dean acting alone, it was voted on by Committees that included Harold Ickes.

[madeline_con]

94. Another thanks!

You did a great job keeping all this! A must read for next time.:woohoo:

[PassingFair]

38. What a pantload.

Dean WAS fair and neutral.

He enforced the rules.

Any other move WOULD have been undemocratic.

[MADem]

72. He enforced halfassed rules of his own making, that deprived voters of their right to vote.

Being technically correct doesn't win you any prizes if you are perceived as someone who stops votes from being counted. Dean is perceived that way. No one wants to be associated with someone who is regarded as a vote swiper.

That was his undoing. He was not perceived as fair and neutral. He was perceived as taking actions in states that specifically benefitted one candidate over another, and he was also seen as abrogating people's right to vote.

You don't have to like what I say, but it is the truth.

Dean is now on the outside looking in. Obama's cabinet and WH staff are stuffed to the gills with Clintonistas, not Deaniacs. The Fifty State Strategy has been put on ice; the effort SHUT DOWN--all the staffers picked up their last paychecks at the end of November.

The alliance between the Clinton team and the Obama team is complete.

These are FACTS. Not "a pantload."

Look me up when Dean gets a job in the Obama administration.

[PassingFair]

76. Correction: It is YOUR truth.

You are spouting your opinions.

And they DO constitute a pant load, in MY opinion.

Hundreds of thousands of people DO perceive the
handling of the primaries as fair and neutral.

And I say that from MICHIGAN.
I KNOW how my fellow Democrats felt about
our state party's actions.

The fact that Dean did not get "rewarded" by Obama
does not change the facts.

I do not dispute your statements regarding
Obama's appointments.

It shows that a pressure must be brought to bear
on the new administration.

Maybe it is better that Dean and other Progressives
do it from the outside of the party.

[MADem]

86. Sure, whatever.

Because people routinely bust their asses to find themselves out of work and without prospects for a job. All for a cause.

Riiiiiight.

The fact that Dean did not get "rewarded" by Obama IS the fact--the one you can't see. It's the Unkindest Cut, really.

There will be no pressure brought to bear on Obama that will stick. He's merged with the Clintonistas precisely so he can RESIST the pressure from the far left and the perpetually demanding netroots.

See, the far left can make noise, but they're drowned out when you take the moderates, centrists and conservative Dems, the Independents, the moderate GOP, etc.

Obama is building a coalition that is way bigger than the "Change" crowd. In fact, the critical mass comes from the "Business as Usual" crowd.

I'm surprised so many people still aren't seeing it.

:rofl:

[PassingFair]

89. We ARE seeing it.

What we are saying is that we don't like it.

:eyes:

[MADem]

92. Well, hell..why am I taking so much heat here for pointing it OUT?

It's as though I'm the architect of the plan, the way some of these excessively dramatic responders are BLAMING ME for the course of events.

Note to all: I didn't do it. I just call it as I see it.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

100. Get some help. Tossing insults at people you don't know suggests an empty life. NT

[madfloridian]

101. You are getting heat because you are not telling the truth about him.

Updated list of my journal postings about the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1906

Florida Democrats invade Georgia
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1905

Dean told not to plan a vacation in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1902

Court decision on March 17 could determine who Democratic nominee is.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1897

Florida Democrats thought they would only lose "half" the delegates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1903

Dean says FL and MI would not negotiate with the DNC...took it public
instead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1888

Florida, Michigan and the Jackasses That Over-reached
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1890

Tampa op ed: "Arrogance Cost Florida Chance To Influence Election"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1875

Terry McAuliffe wants to change horses in the middle of the stream.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1882

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary
bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

Jeremy Ring (D-FL) said "relevance is more important than "partying" in
Denver.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1836

The worst part is that this very day FL Dems still shift blame....
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1870

Is Hillary's campaign being run as a "shadow DNC" for her benefit?
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1883

More Florida shenanigans and more insults to Dean from that state.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1858

Think I exaggerate about Florida's attitude? Here's a county chairperson's
rant against Dean.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1827

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a
"voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the
DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to
let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local
email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in
chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument
here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone
call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to
Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had
to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1483

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1481

Pelosi says it is not Florida's fault at all. So if the speaker says it I
must be wrong.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1567

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary
that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617

Nobody sued Terry McAuliffe when he said Michigan's delegates would not get
near Boston.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1638

Nelson and Levin of Michigan file the bill today. It's getting deeper
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1741

My postings about the heartbreak of the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1607

Florida Dems at convention have button that says "Screw Dean"...very classy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1608

Senate leader ponders suing 'rogue states' over primary
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1527

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

105. What is it called when you keep telling the untruths over and over

.

[MADem]

107. I don't do that. nt

[madfloridian]

108. You accused the party chairman of throwing the primary. You are getting away with it.

And that's a real shame.

[PassingFair]

112. It's not getting away with JACK, mad...

Do you see anyone rising to its
defense?

I'm putting it on ignore.

[MADem]

115. How many times do I have to repeat it before you get it?

Dean did what Dean did.

The result was the result.

Had Dean not done what Dean did, the result may have been different. In fact, it likely would have been.

But whatever--two political organizations, Teams Obama and Clinton, have merged into an Ultra-Powerful Machine.

Dean has no place at that table.

Now, if that's a lie, then the sky is polka dotted and the grass is purple.

Stop getting angry at me for pointing out the obvious. It's not my fault that Obama stiff-armed Dean. I'm not Rahm Emmanuel.

[PassingFair]

110. YOUR jabbing is repetitive.

You must have corporate tunnel syndrome.

No cure.

[MADem]

147. We'll see who's right about this at the end of the day.

Send me a message when Howard gets his cabinet post.

[kenfrequed]

159. This is folly

We should definitely resist those darned dirty radicals on the left and go back to the usual nonsense with the corporate Dems and the blue dogs and the DLC. All of this when the people seem to be moving away from them.

So rather than actually changing something big and moving towards where the majority is on healthcare, environmentalism, trade, education, or anything else that might offend the corporate masters. We are instead going to line up to triangulate with the losing ideology and for all our talk of change we are going to be left with NOTHING to run on in 2012 other than an economy that will be unable to dredge itself up out of teh duldrums of recession/depression.

No, far better to sit back and armchair quarterback this damned thing and sound like a pro.

[MADem]

202. You're shooting the messenger.

And you're ascribing motive and "attitude" to me.

And then getting mad because I'm getting off my ass and trying to make sense of what's happened here.

Fine, I'm an armchair quarterback. Ewww, such an unkind cut.

You pick that shovel up and keep digging for Howard's pony. And call me when he gets his great job and big corner office working for Barack.

[AtomicKitten]

77. wow! you have this so spectacularly wrong

It was Hillary Clinton that played fast and loose with the rules, rules some of her own people wrote!, rules she pretended she hadn't already agreed to, but she did.

Howard Dean did a great job navigating the subterfuge thrown in his path by the SS Clinton. He was fair and consistent.

I do believe you will be consumed by your own bitterness.

[MADem]

83. No, I don't.

I have it right.

You call me when Dean gets an appointment to the Obama administration.

I'm not bitter at all. I think Obama was quite sensible in merging with the Clintonistas. You, however, keep digging in a pile of shit for Howard Dean's pony, and it isn't there.

Dean is screwed. He has no role in Obama's administration. He's going to have to strike out on his own.

[madfloridian]

85. You accused him of throwing the primary. Dangerous talk and harmful

to all of us.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtomicKitten]

87. Your opportunistic false concern resonates.

And I'm afraid you've jumped on the Poor Dean (he deserves more than your false concern) train as a means to an end to vent your spleen, blaming HRC's loss on Michigan and Florida.

Sorry, but you can't get away with denigrating Dean for his actions as DNC Chair and then complain that he wasn't rewarded for them. I'm calling bullshit on that noise.

[MADem]

91. I don't have any concern, false or otherwise--but say, where did you

get the idea that the word "opportunistic" ever had a place in that subject line?

:rofl:

Sorry--it's just, well, dumb.

I just call it as I see it, without "concern." Without "denigration."

Certainly without spleen venting, either.

You're the one getting your drawers in a bunch, not me. You can "call bullshit on that noise" all you want. And I can take your opinion for what it's worth--which, to me, is not much.

You might want to get out more. Your worldview is a bit skewed.

[AtomicKitten]

97. gotcha

"opportunistic" - false concern for the sheer purpose of venting your spleen

[MADem]

106. No, you didn't get anything.

Your definition of "opportunistic" is rather unique, to put it kindly. I daresay you won't find that gem you invented in any dictionary.

Have a nice day.

[AtomicKitten]

109. you're been exposed as a poser

now run along

[MADem]

113. More name calling.

Grow up.

[cascadiance]

173. Correction! The AMERICAN PEOPLE are screwed, not just Dean! Merging with the Clintonistas...

... is CORPORATE serving, not people serving. Sensible if you are a corporatist, but not if you're for our government serving its people.

[MADem]

196. Sensible for Obama.

He has acquired power. He wants to keep it.
Pandering to the far left is not the way to do it. That's why he's kissing Rick Warren's ass.

Sorry if you don't like that analysis, but it is the truth.

[cascadiance]

204. So you're basically saying the people don't count in our government, because the "far left"...

... IS most of the people, and they are also working for the welfare of many who don't cheer for them, unlike the elite-serving corporatists.

If we had a democracy, and he wants to keep power, then he'd make sure he'd try to keep us happy. I'd like to think there's still opportunity for democratic forces to still force those in power to work for them, even if you seem to have lost hope in that (unless you're one of that 1% elite that's being served by them).

[MADem]

208. Where do you get these interpretations of my remarks?

Let's break it down slowly, now.

No, I am not saying people don't count in our government. What I am saying is that Obama is appealing to the MAJORITY. That's the people who are on his wavelength, and to the right of him. NOT the people to the left of him--if he were appealing to them, he would not say things like "I'm opposed to gay marriage." And he wouldn't invite rightwing haters to give Invocations at his Inaugural.

The "far left" is NOT "most of the people." Don't get the idea, because you frequent DU, that a forum of a hudred thousand people is "most of the people." Most people, are closer to CNN than they are MSNBC, and they lean more towards FOX News than CNN. This nation IS center-right. And that is where Obama is going to consolidate power. His attitude surely is "Where is the left going to go? They won't do better than me..."

If this country were actually far left, we wouldn't have seen the shit hit the fan in California.

Obama is appealing to the masses. The masses are not as socially liberal as the far left is.

The far left is the FRINGE, not the critical mass.

Do NOT shoot the messenger. I'm not putting up with that.

[cascadiance]

210. Your opinion of the majority... Many of us have a different opinion of what is the majority...

Most of them are not the so called "center" that Fox keeps trying to define those right of center as. The corporate media have a conflict of interest that want the government to serve them rather than the people and they see the right serving them rather than the left. That is why they want to make us feel like we're the minority, when many of us would contend we are not. If a majority of this country want the Iraq war ended, then how is being against the war "far left"?

If he takes the left for granted too long, it will allow the corporate lobbyists to continue to plunder us the way they have been and it will continue to destroy the economy, and then Obama will be voted out when his "voice of change" message is shown to be EMPTY rhetoric, if indeed he keeps trying to appeal to those that are in power of the status quo that have created our problems. And if that happens many of us on the left will have realized by then that either we need to make the primary THE election in 2010, or all go to a newer party or take over the Green Party, etc. instead. Obama is gambling his base, and that is not the best way to stay in power.

Why did Bush win pandering to the EXTREME right? If he did, why can't Obama appeal to those of us who've waited for so long to be heard, and haven't had a chance to see REAL progressive policies put in place that could really make a difference. All of these scare tactics against the "far left" ignore the fact that progressive policies are the only ones that haven't been given an honest try in the midst of all of these right wing and centrist *failures* that this country has endured for so many years.

[MADem]

214. It's not a matter of "opinion' though.

It's where the people fall out. Most Democrats are not "far left" types--I mean, come on--Jack Murtha, Bob Casey, they're anti-choice Dems. They keep getting elected. They're not alone. The Congress is NOT full of Dennis Kucinich types. It's full of moderates, pragmatists, and conservatives.

[cascadiance]

216. The reason they get elected is because corporate dollars push them...

... not because they necessarily have great popular support amongst the people.

The reason prop 8 was passed in California was because of a fear media campaign about prop 8 basically forcing schools to have kids being taught about gay sex, which really had nothing to do with what it was about. The media and big money campaigns do similar things to get these so-called "moderates" elected too.

There's a reason why Hillary Clinton lost the nomination earlier. A big part had to do with the Democratic base rejecting her corporate ties. Obama wasn't as clearly corporate as she was, which is why many Democrats voted for him versus her.

[ieoeja]

125. Lie #2

"rules of his own making"

He didn't make any rules. This follows the "he picked sides" lie told in your first post.

[MADem]

135. Keep smiling, now.

[AtomicKitten]

39. * cough * bullshit

[MADem]

70. And that will get Dean a post in the Obama administration....NOT.

Happy holidays to you, too.

[AtomicKitten]

79. two separate unrelated issues and disproves your theory that Dean smooched Obama butt in the primary

I still think Dean may find a place in this administration which I believe he deserves having proved his efficacy and brilliance at the DNC.

[MADem]

93. Look me up when his cabinet assignment is announced. nt

[ChairmanAgnostic]

46. bull. which SIDE did Dean pick?

He remained neutral on FL and MI.

[MADem]

69. I'm talking about his aggressiveness about sticking to "the rules" in the first place.

He wasn't neutral. He was...unyielding.

His actions benefitted Obama, but Obama isn't very grateful, now, is he?

No job for Dean. Rahm Emmanual made sure of that.

[Raster]

47. We got ourselves a diaper load with this post.

[MADem]

68. Well, that was unhelpful, but I'll bet it made you feel good somehow. NT

[Raster]

73. Why did you even bother to respond?

Talk about unhelpful.

[madfloridian]

78. You are posting things that are far from the truth. It angers people

and you must know that you are wrong.

[MADem]

118. Repetition doesn't afford your comments added veracity. Sorry, dear. NT

[Political Heretic]

178. Yeah, I remember you from the primaries.

Clearly you're as detached from factual reality now as you were there.

Blame florida and michigan for florida and michigan. No one else. It wasn't like they weren't aware of the rules - they just said FU to the rules and hoped they'd get away with it.

[MADem]

201. Ah, insults. How charming. Gee, I don't remember you. You must not be very important. NT

[Political Heretic]

205. Not an insult so much as an observation, really.

:shrug:

[MADem]

206. Well, if you want to play in the schoolyard, whoever smelt it, dealt it.

Have a Happy Festivus.

[Political Heretic]

212. And a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush as long as we're on nonsequitor proverbs

[JVS]

188. What could be more neutral than declaring long before hand that they wouldn't count due to ...

rule violations and then working damned hard to make that decision stick?

[MADem]

200. What could be more UNDEMOCRATIC than disenfranchising voters for the actions of their

state party apparatchiks?

And doing it to FL...AGAIN?

How obscene. Instead of trying to find a solution, the chair rigidly enforced rules and as a consequence, punished innocent VOTERS.

NOT his finest hour.

[JVS]

215. Counting unauthorized primary contests would be more undemocratic.

[acmavm]

18. Seriously I have more respect for Howard Dean than I do either

Emmanuel (who I detest) or Barack Obama.

[Pastiche423]

146. You and me both!

I have become more depressed after this election than I was in 2004.

[acmavm]

150. I haven't. I expected what we got so I'm not suicidal or anything,

But Howard Dean is what he is. And he is OPEN about it. That's why he won't ever sit in the White House. And he found his niche (or so I thought) when he pulled the Democratic up out of the trash bin and put us back in the White House. Obama owes Dean more than anyone.

I wasn't a supporter of his when he ran for president. I didn't like his platform like I did Wesley Clark's. But when he decided to put his energies into putting the party together and going nationwide (in the face of what everyone else said), I really started to see a whole new side of the man. He's a schemer and a planner. He's cool and calculating. But he's also honest as they come and you can read him like a book. He's smart.

I am disappointed that he got no position in Obama's cabinet. VERY DISAPPOINTED.

[Pastiche423]

151. Howard Dean was the 1st presidential candidate

that I have been excited about since George McGovern. His sincerety, integrity and ceaseless hard work spoke to me like no one has before. I was livid when the MSM destroyed him using their manufactered scream.

I am beyond disappointed in Obama.

[ananda]

20. I think that Obama and the country will be sorry for..

.. going with the DLC Emanuel/Clinton side
of the party exclusively .. at the expense
of the more rational and human Dean side.

[glitch]

66. It would have been wiser to have been more even-handed in his cabinet selection

among other things.

[Pirate Smile]

22. Obama is evil and everyone should always assume the worst about everything he does.

:eyes:

Obama has always been tight with Daschle. He hired a lot of Daschle's staff in 2004. Not hiring Dean for HHS is not to punish Howard. Obama also knows Rahm from Chicago. Frankly, Rahm seems like a perfect choice for the position of COS personality-wise. Dean was the perfect choice for DNC chair in 2005.

I have a feeling Howard is going to end up somewhere very useful. He always does. Where exactly? I don't know. We'll see.

I caucused for both Dean in 2004 and Obama in 2008. I don't see a conflict between supporting both but obviously the circular firing squad has commenced, as usual.

[baby_mouse]

33. We'll see, indeed.

[nichomachus]

44. No one said that -- but hyperventilate all you want - if it makes your adoration easier

[Pirate Smile]

54. I'm sorry if I think it is possible the hiring decisions could be based on multiple factors instead

of Obama trying to screw over Dean. Silly me.

[FrenchieCat]

29. I don't believe the WAPO, as they have always hated Howard Dean.....

so it seems curious that they would now be championing him.

As far as adding to the hatin' pile on toward the next President for this WAPO report, go ahead.......get in line!

[Greyhound]

34. I don't understand why so many are surprised, this guy came up in

and out of Chicago, IL. politics, hands down the most politically corrupt state and city in the union.

Now, that also opens a very real possibility that he will double-cross the power brokers that allowed him to win in the first place, so it may still be good for us in the end.

[Hydra]

37. Tapping Rahm Emanuel was a bad sign

And so I can't say that I'm surprised about Dean. Every time he's in a position to do so, he creates real change, and thus is shot down by the establishment good old boys.

"That's not the change we need"

Honestly, I feel bad for Dean- he works hard for us and winds up with knives in his back.

[MADem]

80. It was a clear sign, that the Clinton machine and the Obama machine were merging.

I mean, really--look at the Cabinet.

It looks like Bill Clinton picked it. It's well-studded with his friends. Hell, Obama's VP is the BEST FRIEND of the Clintons (and he was the guy who orchestrated a lot of this consolidation)....they go on vacation together. They've been close friends for years.

I can't believe that people are still surprised by this. The consolidation began before the election.

Dean's Fifty State Strategy was shut down, the paid employees furloughed, and the entire operation put on hiatus at the end of November.

Now, the goal will be to move to the center-right, pick up the disaffected Independents and the moderate Republicans (the Rick Warren sop pulls in a few evangelicals) and, if that strategy takes hold, next ones under the bus will be the far left.

You don't HAVE to dance with the one what brung ya, you see....

[Hydra]

84. I just have to laugh

The people they are targeting as their base never vote for them...and I think if Obama goes back on his pledge there is a real chance of a split in the party...but I expected that on the FISA vote, frankly.

I suppose the great irony is that if things shape up as they have so far, Obama basically voted himself out of a job. Like Bush, we won't be allowed to formulate the policy, only to deliver it.

The ball is in his court- let's see what he does.

[MADem]

99. He's counting on being able to pull it off.

It's hard to say if he will--he's managed well thus far, AND he's got all that Clinton expertise on his team as well. I suspect he's looking at the disaffected and disorganized GOP and saying "It's now, or never. There's an opening there a mile wide to rope those people in--I just gotta go for it!"

It's pissing the left-netroots off, of course. They brought him to the dance, gave him a corsage, paid for his coke, and now he's dumped his date to dance with that fellow with the gold watch and the fancy car!

The question is, will they stick with him, and take the compromises they can get from him, or will they reject him angrily and totally, and look for a new flag bearer?

In that context, too, it makes sense for Obama to cut Dean off at the knees and dismantle his Fifty State Machine....can't have that being used against him, after all!

[kenfrequed]

160. hmm

An opening a mile wide to do what? Pitch the left wing? And then what? Run over and hug the Wallstreet crowd and the republicans?

As far as the Clinton folk I am sorry, but the most they ever managed was a bloody plurality. With the help and committment of the left Obama scored a higher percentage of the popular vote than Saint Bill (patron saint of pseudo-professional strategists and corporate media DLC pundits) ever managed.

[MADem]

164. He won't pitch them. He'll just make it clear to them: "Where the hell are you gonna go?"

Really--it's not like they can prance off to the GOP and get their needs met there. They can, of course, stay home in larger numbers on election day, but those disaffected types can be "made up" by the "Rick Warren moderates" (yes, it's oxymoronic, but I'm talking economic and social moderates with a blind spot when it comes to "moral" issues).

That's the opening. He's courting these "compassionate evangelicals." There's a move afoot with them for the past several years, where a few of their preacher have been saying that Jeeeesus wasn't bullshitting when he said "Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the poor, etc."

And where ARE they gonna go, the ones who do get 'purist' and decide "Screw this--this guy sold us a bill of goods?" The Greens? The Reform Party? HA. The merger of the Clinton and Obama wings has made this "thing" into a Juggernaut. "It" owns the Democratic Party for the near future. And Dean, who was a guru for the pragmatic left, is on the outs with this machine.

I know this is hard for those who worked so hard to get the guy to the show to understand, but he's not going to kiss any lefty ass. In fact, he'll toss a bone or two, and that's that. There won't be any sweeping, dramatic changes to the social order (in fact, he'll be lucky if he can keep his head above water in this economic maelstrom). He'll be sitting in the center, and even dancing to the right a tad (Pastor Rick, e.g.) because that, like it or not, is what works in this goofy country and keeps the far right a bit off their hate game.

It's all very unfortunate, but it's also very unsurprising. He most certainly will trade that wide-eyed "commitment of the left" for the reliable votes of a subset of evangelicals who are smart enough to know that their mega-pastors are feasting at the "Faith Based Initiatives" trough. And those lefties who hang in their without much enthusiasm, well, they'll cynically pull the lever for him, most of them ("Well, he's better than the alternative...sigh") and his reelection will suggest a greater degree of "popularity" than is actually apparent.

When I discuss truths like this, I often get called a right wing troll by partisans who don't see the forest for the trees. My analysis, for the record, is not an endorsement...

[kenfrequed]

180. you are not analyzing

You are projecting your own bizarre wish list onto this affair.

Or perhaps projecting your own pessimism.

The right wing has failed. The republican vision has failed. Why are you using our own little silly echo chamber to counter propagandize in favor of the repugniks?

If it is not a time for a great progressive movement now, then when in your estimation would it be? Never?

Are you even in favor of universal healthcare, free higher education, environmental reform, a living wage, or any of the cornucopeia of values that define the progressive democrats?

What is going to draw voters long term to the democratic party? If we sell out every single one of our principles and big ideas in favor of bipartisanship and triangulation how will we inspire anyone? Moreover how will a continuation of failure, corporatism, disinvestment, job shipping, and privatization pull us up out of recession/depression.

Either you imagine yourself a political wonk (in which case you are a victem of Reagan and 1994) or you actually believe in the DLC-do nothing to offend Wallstreet platform.

There is hope for you to wake up if you are the former if you are the later, and the collapse of the lending/home/finance/banking industry (both present and future) has not altered your vision at all then I do not know what will rouse you.

[MADem]

186. What part of NOT AN ENDORSEMENT don't you fucking understand?

Jesus. Wish list? Are you on drugs or something? Can't you fucking read? Just because I see things as they are doesn't mean I'm WISHING them into existence.

If you're looking for a "great progressive movement" from Barack Obama, well, Good Luck to you and the Boston Braves.

I've got some bad news for you--Clinton Democrats are in favor of universal healthcare, free higher education, environmental reform and a living wage, too. And Bill Clinton was a triangulator par excellance who could play a progressive one day, and a conservative Democrat the next.

Obama's choice of Rick Warren is a signal. So are his administration picks. TWO Republicans in the cabinet? That's one more than is traditional. Had Lieberman not campaigned for McCain, he probably would have gotten a job too--since he and Obama are close friends.

It's not going to be the Bright New Day and the Change and the Great Progressive Administration that everyone hoped for and BELIEVED in Gays, women, get to the back of the bus. You'd better dial back those expectations, any progress you make WILL be INCREMENTAL. And PAINFULLY slow. There will be no sweeping reform.

It WILL be better than The Bush Years in terms of civil liberties, but it'll be closer to CLINTON II than a far left paradise. All you have to do is look at the cabinet to see that.

I'm awake. I see what's happening. And don't give me that former-latter crap. It wasn't an accident that Obama selected a cabinet that looks like Bill Clinton picked it. It wasn't an accident that all of Hillary Clinton's people are doing pretty damned well in terms of appointments under Obama. The two dynasties have MERGED. Triangulation is the methodology. Obama is already moving rightward, and the far left has no choice but to go along, because they don't have anywhere else to go, now, do they?

Don't shoot the messenger. If you have a problem with this, take it up with the President Elect. I didn't force him to play it this way. It's how he thinks he can hold power for eight years.

[kenfrequed]

189. I am sorry

But I have tripped over too many of your posts here and all too often the arguments that are put forth seem, at least in my opinion, to be rather center-right in focus.


So you will have to forgive me if I find your trumpeting about all of this to either be mocking or triumphant in tone.

[MADem]

191. BULLSHIT.

I am a PRAGMATIC ECONOMIC MODERATE with a very strong social focus.

What's center right about equal rights for our gay brothers and sisters?

What's center right about health care for all?

What's center right about equal rights and pay for women?

What's center right about an equitable immigration policy?

I'd tell you to go fuck yourself, but that's against forum rules. I will say that you know not one goddamn thing about me and my philosophies, but it is painfully apparent to me that you like to shoot your mouth off and take the attitude of a partisan tool who can not argue or see any position save your own. That, to my mind, is evidence of a lazy intellect.

A person who cannot discuss an issue from all sides and points of view is not worth dealing with. I forgive you nothing. If you find me "mocking" or "triumphant" you must be suffering from a medical condition that leaves you unable to read people.

All you have are my sympathies--it must suck to be as jerky as you quite apparently are.

[kenfrequed]

194. *shaking my head*

I was commenting on my personal view of your politics. I know with one hundred percent certainty that we have argued in the past and all the ad hominems in the world are not going to change that one iota.

As far as being a 'partisan tool' I would only say that the left needs a louder and stronger set of partisan tools. We certaintly aren't catered to in the mainstream media. The alternative is as follows:

Gay rights-- shouldn't even be an issue. They are human beings and should have human rights to include forming families and protection from discrimination as befits humans.

Healthcare for all--- Which in the current get along with the republicans attitude means either: No change and continuing for profit health care vs a collaborative private-profit/public system that promises the worst of all possible worlds. When single payer universal was pulled off the table any real meaningful healtcare also went with it.

I have not heard anyone but the ultra left (my mates) mention the ERA. Right now most corporate dems are quite content to let the magick of the market do its thing.

As far as immigration policy the fact of the matter is that free trade has contributed to the destruction of the way of life in outher countries. Particularly those that contribute to the immigration in this country, both legal and otherwise. Corporations cynically break the law in these matters to enhance their profit margin. The solution is going have to be an end to 'free trade' and an increase of the minimum wage as well as a intense legal punishment on the employer guilty of hiring illegals.

Without change in trade practices the influx of immigrants will be unending. I don't say that to be xenophobic, I have no trouble with immigrants or people seeking a change in circumstance. I do have a problem with the powerful elite using immigration to depress wages.

I don't have to discuss the side of an issue that has been the failed policy of conservative politicians since Reagan. There is no point in it. I may as well discuss the relative advantages of re-adopting a Geocentric view of the universe.

[MADem]

195. I never asked you to "prove" your bona fides. But you flat out did that to me.

And I've got a record here, all right, of how I come down on issues. It's in the fucking archives.

So whatever.

You apparently like being a member of an unquestioning, cheerleading, obsequious Hallelujah chorus.

I prefer to debate the issues, dissect them, pick them apart, look at all sides, and learn a little something. Then I make my call.

There's nothing more to say.

You have a happy holiday.

[kenfrequed]

203. Yes...

I am the sheep. While you are the independent thinker that relies on 'conventional wisdom.' Obviously it is the crazy liberals that are unthinking and short sighted while clearly the DLC types that agree on the 'wisdom of the free market' that are thoughtful.

Spare me.

[MADem]

207. I never made the assertions you're laying on about me OR you. That's all in your head.

And it's not my problem. So spare ME, do.

Happy holidays.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

183. I think you're both right. Your analysis seems pretty accurate but you will find 0 agreement

with me on the statement that Dr. Dean took sides in the primary. Others in this thread have pointed out that he was following the established rules. It's not like he all of a sudden pulled it all out of his ass.

When it comes to how Obama will or might treat the left it all seems to be pointing into the direction which you describe. I'm assuming that you don't necessarily agree with his approach since you do not endorse it.

The poster you responded to is correct in stating that the right wing ideology in this country is nothing more than a bill of goods which gets discredited more and more as time goes by. The problem as i see it is: Why look for middle ground between a sound liberal ideology and a discredited mentality?

The so called Reagan revolution changed this country by saying to people: "Look these fucking guys have no idea what their doing but we do.". I think that this is the approach that must be taken. I think we validate Repuke ideas by this so called third way. They had their chance. They fucked up and now we're paying for it. This is clear as day. Tell the people the truth and if you are successful then the so called center moves to the left.

That is my humble opinion.

[cascadiance]

174. Aka the corporatist party exposing itself as the REAL control of this government

... and continuing the long legacy of corporate rule that presidents like Eisenhower warned us against.

[gkhouston]

42. Sounds like the WaPo is shit-stirring again.

And probably brought some fake poo with them.

[EFerrari]

133. A friend of Howard's who posts here has been saying the same thing for weeks.

The WaHo loves to stir things up. Unfortunately, there's more than a grain of truth here. :(

[ChairmanAgnostic]

45. huh?

This is bullshit.

The article, I mean. He told people earlier this year that he really did not look forward to a second term as DNC head. After a Democrat was elected president (and frankly, Dean was perfectly professional, and did not favor one or the other) his job was done. He created new races, he earned us many more seats, and he was a team player when he had to be. That WaPo article is trying to create trouble where there is none.

Dean and Rahm exchanged words? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? IF that meant he had trouble with Rahm, 40% of Chicago, 100% of CONGRESS, and 100% of the US SENATE would have a problem with Rahm. That is Rahm's personality, and for WaPo to stretch that into some "disagreement" with Rahm is just plain stupid.

Look, Dean spent 4 long, hard years, traveling by bus more often than not, creating offices in southern and western states, staffing them, making things happen. He is tired, and I never expected him to play a part in this administration. To the contrary, I suspect he will chill for 6 months or so, then do other great works.

WaPo has become trash central.

[cali]

49. Dean wanted a position with the administration

And sorry, Emanuel hates Dean along with Carville and a few select others. That's not a secret and it's not bullshit.

[camera obscura]

50. to be fair Emanuel and Dean have done more than "exchange words". They've had beef since '05

I don't oppose Rahm being appointed to CoS but it should be noted that he was, and presumably still is, VERY anti-Howard Dean.

[Pastiche423]

149. rahm"s "exchange"

"Emanuel had witnessed this struggle in Illinois, too: it was the party regulars versus the goo-goos. Emanuel, the Daley protégé, is a regular who believes money and a disciplined organization win elections. He seemed to see Dean as a goo-goo, a good-government reformer with a base of liberal idealists who are more educated and individualistic than your average Democratic machine foot soldier, but less reliable when you need someone to hand out palm cards on Election Day. The machine has been paving over goo-goos since the 19th century. As a beery alderman once put it, "Chicago ain't ready for reform."

When Emanuel and Sen. Charles Schumer of New York met with Dean to ask him to shift money to congressional races, Emanuel mocked the former Vermont governor as a political lightweight from a tiny, rural, homogenous state. "No disrespect, but some of us are arrogant enough, we come from Chicago, we think we know what it means to knock on a door," Bendavid quotes Emanuel as telling Dean. Emanuel "slammed his hand on the table," then continued his tirade: "Look, Chuck comes from Brooklyn. I come from Chicago. It ain't Burlington, Vermont. Now, we understand that Burlington knows a lot about grassroots politics and we know nothing. I know your field plan -- it doesn't exist. I've gone around the country with these races. I've seen your people. There's no plan, Howard."

According to Bendavid, Emanuel left the room vowing not to be seen with Dean if the Democrats lost on Election Day. When Dean eventually offered $20,000 a race, Emanuel told him to fuck off. (Not literally -- although it's plausible.) Eventually, Dean ponied up a $12 million nationwide get-out-the-vote drive."


http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/05/08/rahm_emanuel/print.html

[Cults4Bush]

154. This is why Rahm is thought of a a scumbag by most outside

the "centrist" DLC lifestyle. These kinds of big dicking scenarios are numerous. He is not change, he is a typical asshole politico.

[mahina]

52. Agreed. Until Dean says so, I take it with a pillar of salt.

Howard Dean has earned so much aloha and respect, I highly doubt he is being relieved against his will.

Mercy.

[cali]

56. he'll never say so directly, but that's exactly what's happening

A new president always puts in his own person at the National Committee. That's not personal. It's simply the way it is. Of course Dean didn't want to stay on at the DNC anyway under a dem president, but he did want a job in the new administration.

[Spectral Music]

57. They used Dean to win. Now they are unloading him. No good deed goes unpunished.

God this sucks.

[LaPera]

58. Obama certainly has me keeping my "back to the wall" His support for the FISA (domestic spying) bill

Barack Obama’s rightward sprint is nowhere more obvious than in his betrayal on the FISA bill.

This bill allows the President to grab all incoming and outgoing international communications without a warrant.

The ACLU says it represents “an unprecedented extension of governmental surveillance over Americans.”

Obama, sounding on Friday a lot like Bush, said: “Given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay.”

Here’s what Bush said the same day as Obama: The bill “allows our intelligence professionals to quickly and effectively monitor the plans of terrorists abroad, while protecting the liberties of Americans here at home.”

But it doesn’t protect our liberties, and Obama ought to know that.

Obama said it “firmly reestablishes basic judicial oversight over all domestic surveillance.”

But the ACLU notes that the bill “permits only minimal court oversight. The FISA Court only reviews general procedures for targeting and minimizing the use of information that is collected. The court may not know who, what, or where will actually be tapped, thereby undercutting any meaningful for the court and violating the Fourth Amendment.”

What’s more, in the incredibly rare instances where the FISA Court denies a warrant to the President, under the new bill the President can go ahead and do the wiretapping anyway while the appeals process continues, a process that the ACLU says can take two months.

Russ Feingold calls the idea that this is a good compromise “a farce” and “political cover.”

Says Feingold: “Anybody who claims this is an OK bill, I really question if they’ve even read it.”

Has Obama?

If not, that’s a problem.

And if he has, and still approves of it, that’s an even bigger one.

[harun]

59. Dean should have got education.

[Jim Sagle]

134. He's getting an education, along with the rest of us.

[deaniac21]

61. Dean deserves so much more. He is the reason we took back

congress.

[Kitsune]

88. We are so tremendously fucked in 2010.

First we pull the rug out from under Dean's incredibly successful 50 state strategy. Then, Obama precedes to appoint a center-right cabinet and start his administration off with the most tone-deaf cock-up imaginable, filling me with terrible suspicion that Obama is not going to change jack fucking diddly.

I'll be surprised if we don't lose a bunch of seats in 2010.

[dflprincess]

148. That's what I'm thinking

How it's change to appoint a cabinet full of people who supported a lot of the policies that got us into the mess we're in is beyond me.

I wonder if Obama will dump Rahm if we lose enough seats in 2010?

[MADem]

176. The test market for the Hope Change Believe effort was the MA governor's race.

There's buyer's remorse in the Bay State, too.

So many promises, so few deliveries.

[rvablue]

193. Off topic......but OMG! Your sig line gif is freakin' adorable....made my day! n/t

[MADem]

198. Heh heh.

I came across that thing somewhere and saved it. It's the spit image of a wonderful late member of our family, who died after twenty very companiable years with us. Feel free to steal a copy--I did!

[peacetalksforall]

126. I'm for Dean. He could do any job given him. I say we need a petition sent to Obama and

I really feel uncomfortable even suggesting it, because it makes him look even more left out.

Dean is the only one who gets my 100% endorsment. He fits the ideals I have for integrity.

He's the best Democratic contender for any of the positions.

Too many on the staff are really Republicans in their history of positions taken and positions pushed.

Even hearing that Emmanuel doesn't have time for Dean makes me sick to my stomach.

But, I'm one who is fervently anti-DLC. If there are no changes, I will no longer be a Democrat - I'll be a citizen without a representative.

[martymar64]

137. I agree 100%. I stand with Dean over anybody else, even Obama

If Obama keeps moving to the right, he will find many of his 2008 voters leave him in 2012. We didn't elect a Democrat as president just to have him morph into a Republican.

Also, a rightward lurch by an Obama Administration it will prove Ralph Nader right in the assertion that there is substantially no difference between the Democrats and the Republicans.

Obama has shown some promise by appointing Solis to Labor and also for expressing solidarity with the workers in Chicago when BofA was screwing them. I just hope that the rest of his Cabinet, especially that pinche culebra Emmanuel, doesn't exert undue influence over Obama's better instincts. I trust Dean and I trust Obama, but the Clintonista crowd? I no longer trust them at all. The sold out years ago.

[peacetalksforall]

157. If I hear someone from the right attacking the Clintons, I will defend them when I can,

because of 8-10-12 years of defending them which became a habit and for some of the reasons I couln not agree with.

However, I'm not one to be taken for a fool by all the air they let out of my balloons. I'm very hesitant about Hillary Clinton as Sec of State because I became hesitant about her voting records and the emphasis she placed on issues as a Senator.

For me the DLC is vicous milquetoast always leaning right aggressive activisits who are plainly enemies of the little people at times. I can't begin to count the number of times when they have UTTERLY FAILED TO PROMOTE A GOOD DEFENSE OR OFFENSE for Democratic principles when they have had the mike and camera on them and when they were supposed to be OFFICIALLY speaking for Democrats. But they rarely spoke for me.

Some of the top ones are traitors in my mind.

I will never forgive all who voted for the Iraq war and Patriot Act bankruptcy - ticket to apy Mukasey and Supreme Court judges PLUS many more major and minor votes and pimping.

A new Party could easily be formed by their dissentors if we didn't have a Repulican owned media.

[EFerrari]

132. Anyone hear from Howard lately? K&R

[Sultana]

136. ..

:-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-(

[Pacifist Patriot]

143. I was a major Deaniac in 2004. I'm saddened to see him so marginalized.

[2Design]

152. me too - I voted for him in the primary - n/t

[mdmc]

155. ditto

[leftchick]

161. I am SHOCKED I tell you!

:sarcasm:


Who didn't see this coming? From the day Obama chose DLC/AIPACer Rahm I Knew Dean and every progressive/liberal was going to get SCREWED. The corporate democratic party won the election, not any of the left got a crumb. Business as usual.

[JCMach1]

162. Obama chose Rahm over Dean... simple as that

DLC over the progressives... :(

[cascadiance]

169. I registered as a Democrat the day Dean took over the DNC! I might leave if he's pushed out...

Campaign for Change? I say BS! I've not seen it so far!

The DLC MUST be muzzled to get rid of the corporatist BS agenda that IS destroying our country now! We need people like Dean in positions of power to ensure that the DLC is appropriately muzzled, if not pushed out.

[alarimer]

170. I swear I hate the Democrats almost as much as I hate the Republicans

They are either pathetic enablers of the bush agenda and spineless weasels when it comes to standing up for what's or they are stabbing each other in the back. I HATE Rahm Emmanuel. Absolutely despise him and think very little of Obama for picking that asshole as Chief of staff.

I left the Democratic Party years ago because of the DLC, Blue Dogs, etc and because of the treatment of Howard Dean.

[NeedleCast]

172. Reminds me of Heisman trophy arguments

Everyone thinks their guy should have been the one picked to do X and Obamas choice not to pick X indicates he's screwing them over.

Yeesh.

[cascadiance]

175. It's not just picking candidate X, but picking a TEAM of candidate X's! There's a pattern here...

... that shows a bigger agenda at work here... If he was really trying to be someone to help work with "both sides", he'd ALSO give Dean a seat at the table, not just put in DLC folk and ignore Dean. That's not working with all sides, and especially is STABBING progressives in the back who helped give him the power he has now!

[whistler162]

177. Yup okay sure........:rolleyes:

[NashVegas]

179. Dean Seems to Have a Great Deal In Common With Al Gore

The DC establishment elite doesn't seem to care very much for either of them.

Gore's ideas, in retrospect, were bigger than Washington or at least bigger than politics. I believe Dean will continue to have influence, but it will come from being an outside agitator. I could easily see him doing well in new media.

[derby378]

190. Dean has become our party's John the Baptist figure

He has shown the way. Now some party bigwigs want to cut off his head for it.

[Fearless]

197. Who wants to bet this turns into another WARREN THREAD??

Or has that ship sailed.

:rofl:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

211. It's never too late...