To my gay brothers and sisters...I believe Obama has done you a favor.

[Joe Fields]

I have stood on the sidelines and have watched this whole debacle develop. And I must tell you that I do NOT believe that the decision by President Obama to have Warren do the invocation is a giant setback. Quite the opposite. I DO believe that what I am witnessing is the coalescing of a movement that will grow much stronger, at a much more accelerated pace, ALL AS A RESULT of this Rick Warren business.

The decision was a direct slap (whether intentionally or unintentionally) in the face to everyone who believes in basic human rights and guaranteed freedoms. I am not gay and am deeply offended by the callous disregard of such a decision process. And yet, I think what we are witnessing is something that wouldn't have been possible, were it not for Warren decision. All gays are speaking out. And with one voice. And Quite loud, I may add. The movement is picking up steam, and more liberals and moderates, day by day are joining the ranks, with the understanding that this isn't a gay issue, but a human rights issue. An equality issue. Period. It's that simple. And if you can't get up in arms over that, then you have no concept of what it means to be an American.

Scream loud. Scream long. Don't stop. Don't ever, EVER allow your voices to be drowned out or shouted down. This is democracy in action. God I love it. I've been waiting for this group to band together like I knew we all could. Obama cannot ignore us now, because we will not go away. A sleeping giant has been awakened.

P.S. Anyone who tells ANYONE here to shut up should be ashamed of themselves. We're better than that.

[ColbertWatcher]

1. Sorry, I have to disagree. The Warren pick was disrespectful. n/t

[Joe Fields]

21. You've missed my point entirely. The lack of respect is not debatable.

It was a heinous lack of respect. It is the act itself that has become the catalyst for a movement to take shape and gain in strength, speaking with one loud long voice. That's what I'm saying. In this regard, the act has most surely caused a process to speed up, where equality under the law is achieved. So, unintentionally, Obama did the movement a favor.

[ColbertWatcher]

34. Are you trying to argue that disrespect is a favor? n/t

[yardwork]

35. I tend to agree with the OP once I read the entire post.

Edited to add - I think that Proposition 8 was the match that lit the fire, and I do tend to see Obama's selection of Warren as something of a setback in the momentum that began after Prop 8.

This Warren debacle could turn out to be good, but only if Obama and other leaders actually listen. If they continue to elevate homophobia while ignoring the essential need for human rights, they'll snuff out the movement before it begins.

[ColbertWatcher]

38. I understand that Obama is a politician ...

... and I don't worship him like most of the GOP believe we libruls do, however, I also read the entire OP and it sounds like a cop out.

He's going to have to learn that whenever the President speaks or takes action, he will be doing it as a representative of the entire nation.

And that includes all the people targeted by the Dominionist cult.

If he wanted to be a leader, Obama could have not chosen sides.

His disrespectful act of inviting Warren--if it isn't reversed--isn't inspirational, nor is it a sign of the wise leader, who was running in the primaries and general election. It's the sign of a guy paying someone back.

[yardwork]

42. I agree that it was a mistake. There was no need to invite Warren at all. Many better choices.

I don't agree with those who claim that this was some sort of genius move on Obama's part. I read the OP as noting that there may be a silver lining, that's all. There might be. We have to wait and see.

Time is on the side of those of us who are waiting to see what this means. The folks here who are telling us to shut up and recognize what a genius move this was now have their credibility on the line. If - as I strongly suspect - this leads to no change in Warren's position and no change in the position of most Americans - the outcome will speak for itself.

I'll be happy if I'm wrong.

[Joe Fields]

52. In disguise, yes.

[glowing]

2. Its quite amazing.. Its somthing most have never had to make a stand on

or really think about before now. Because of Prop H8 and because of Warren and because NOW is the Time... we are watching an amazing and an exciting process of a call for humanity and equality.. AND if we stand together we will get health care, affordable living, green energy, modern transportation, education.. the possibilities are endless. Its like the passion that was felt during the campaign is still churning.. we are filled with hope, yearning, and a call to do for our fellow brother's and sisters... How could the man think we'd be happy with going back to our sleeping boring lives.. we're awake, hungry, fired up, ready to go.

[xchrom]

3. oh for fuck's sake -- really?

:eyes:

[leftstreet]

4. What, Obama didn't hear people 'speaking out' over Prop 8?

He's throwing gas on a fire to 'coalesce' a movement?

Excellent diplomacy skills.

:eyes:

[glowing]

6. I don't think Obama expected this.. but what has come of it is amazing

and about damn time.. It made my head think.. take a stand.. and actually want to fight for something that doesn't have a damn thing to do with me personally.. but may one day if my child or children (if I'm so blessed) happen to be gay. I want them to know its a natural process realizing who makes their interests peak and that they can have a family and children and protections as natural as I have. Anyway, its a real wake up to me. No longer just thinking it should be, but an actual drive to take it on as a real issue.. after all, it is about equality. Practise what we preach.

[tbyg52]

49. >>I don't think Obama expected this.

Then he has a blind spot a mile wide. I've passed a few idle moments mentally flipping a coin - calculating/stupid? Calculating/stupid. ;)

[Joe Fields]

10. Obama seems to be tone deaf to the cause, but the result is

a coalescing of people to begin a movement that will make much shorter work of it's cause. Bizarre, but that's how it works.

[Dragonfli]

5. I sense the energy of a movement growing to demand equality NOW

I as well as others are being caught up in it.
If one believes in the concept of equal liberty for all, there can be no equivocation and certainly no silencing of dissent.

I am not sure if it is a "favor" so much as a "catalyst" to something that I believe actually began to gain energy after H8. Semantics are less important than the movement itself.

It is time (past time really)- there will be no more silence, indeed there should not be.

[glowing]

7. Exactly.

[Dragonfli]

8. I find we often reach the same conclusions ;-) /nt

[silverojo]

40. I like your sig file

Too bad this important awareness month will be completely ignored because people are screaming over Warren.

As a lesbian, I'm looking forward to the day when poor people arise and demand their rights, too.

Warren? I'll flip him off when he's on TV, enjoy Obama's swearing in, and look forward to our new president helping everybody--including the GLBT community.

People are so busy going ballistic over Warren, that they're losing sight of the good that Obama will be able to do.

I'm not an Obama apologist. I'm the first to say that trying to pander to the right never works, and always backfires.

But turning on Obama isn't going to do any good. Like him personally or not, we need him to help undo the damage Bush did in 8 years.

[Number23]

61. That sounds MAGNIFICENT

I sense the energy of a movement growing to demand equality NOW

Sign me up! Damn!!!! I get the shivers just thinking about it...

[Book Lover]

9. No.

Maybe it has helped fence sitting straight clarify where they should fall; and that's a favor to them. But a smack in the face ain't no favor to LGBT folks.

[Joe Fields]

12. You're not looking at it in the proper light.

[Book Lover]

17. Then clarify your position for me, because the way I see it, I'm right (nm)

[Joe Fields]

19. It's easy. Tell me truthfully, do you think that the movement toward

equal rights under the law for gays would be this strong, this unified, without the Warren decision by Obama? I'm not telling you that it's a good thing to get slapped in the face. I'm saying that the slap in the face was a wake up call, and you have answered it in force. Are you going to tell me that this result is not a good thing? Is it not possible to look at this as Obama inadvertently doing gays and equal rights proponents a favor? I think so.

[Book Lover]

24. I think you underestimate how Prop 8's passage galvinized the community

I now understand your logic, but I still disagree, respectfully. Thanks for your explaination.

[Joe Fields]

25. No, I don't underestimate it. That's my point.

The Obama dis was the last straw. Anyway, that's how I see it. I know it's hard to look at a wrong that someone has done to you and realize that it was because of them that your movement gained the momentum necessary for change, but there it is. You can be pissed as hell at him and thank him, all at once.

[Book Lover]

54. Joe, I gotta be honest

Your tone is coming off as patronizing. I'm not saying that's where you are coming from, but that what I'm hearing. Yes, it is possible that some good comes from this invitation down the road, but more good would come *right now* if Obama rescinded the invite.

[RandomKoolzip]

11. So GWB was a great president because he mobilized liberals, then.

With all due respect, I'm not totally down with this kinda logic. Yes, it's good that there's a radicalized and vocal pro-GLBT Rights movement a-bornin'; but the credit shall go to the the GLBT community, NOT lil' Ricky...and this goddamned invocation bullshit shouldn't have been on the menu in the first place.

Not only that, what about the women, both GLBT and non-, that this decision insults? I don't think either the GLBT community OR women in general were done any favors here.

[Joe Fields]

14. It's not logical. Never said it was. But the reality is here for all to see.

Equality under the law for gays will come much faster, I'm convinced, because this Warren pick is the catalyst that was missing for this movement. I'm certainly not for slapping any segment of society in the face with such an oafish decision. In a perfect world, Obama would know better than to even consider such a choice as Warren. Like I said earlier, Obama is tone deaf to the cause. Intentionally, or unintentionally he awoke a sleeping giant, and that is a good thing.

[JohnnieGordon]

16. Good point, we just needed Obama to try to get the laws passed

Tacit approval of homophobia is hardly helpful. If Warren's prominence at Inaugural turns him into "America's Pastor" like Billy Graham, religious homophobia will continue to be coddled as a non-bigotry.

[Joe Fields]

20. A totally irrelevant point. Tacit approval of homophobia, of course is

never helpful, UNLESS, UNLESS, UNLESS it helps to galvanize an opposition force. THAT'S historically when change is forced upon the status quo.

[JohnnieGordon]

22. Unless it doesn't

8 years of Bush's naked homophobia didn't do anything positive for the gay community. The controversy about Warren will fade after the inaugural, but Warren won't fade, he'll be given greater prominence as religious leader.

[Joe Fields]

23. I guess it's up to us, then, to keep pressure on the administration.

[defendandprotect]

32. Excellent point . . . .

I think Prop. 8 was sufficient motivation and should have alerted Obama --

Truth be told, I'm not sure that Obama did anything here but be receptive

to some "conservative" advice given him by advisers. And, they're getting

away with it.

No, I don't think there's any good news here -- I'm straight and I'm just

as concerned that we'll see compromises in female status .... and who knows

what else? Abortion --- I doubt Warren supports abortion rights?

Affirmative Action -- status of African-Americans? Christian attacks on

other religions . . . Jews/Muslims?

I am very concerned about all of those things which may follow this already

very insensitive appointment of a religious fanatic.

[Smarmie Doofus]

13. I sort of agree.

The disturbing part is the level of obtuseness that this suggests about the anointed one on this issue.

He's either dense where it comes to matters of this kind ( likely) or he's harboring some attitudes privately to which he has yet to cop in public.

But you're right in that the current uproar reflects the opportunity embedded in the crisis.

[Joe Fields]

15. I have to agree with your either/or assessment of Obama on this issue.

And yes, either way it is very unsettling. It is hard for me to understand how a man who taught constitutional law can't see the complete unfairness in the gay marriage issue.

[RedCappedBandit]

18. Maybe he has not done it on purpose, but word.

An equality issue. Period. It's that simple. And if you can't get up in arms over that, then you have no concept of what it means to be an American.

:thumbsup:

[ThomCat]

26. WTF? Helping those who attack us is somehow helping us?

Honoring and supporting homophobic bigots is somehow helping the LGBT community? :wtf:

So, by that logic, the Klan deserves awards for working for the advancement of civil rights. :eyes:

If WE mobilize because of this fiasco then we deserve the credit for it. Obama fucked up. He doesn't get credit for our mobilization. He didn't intend to help us. He didn't say or do anything to help us. And, in fact, he's still throwing us under the bus. If we succeed it's despite him, not because of him.

[Joe Fields]

30. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said we should honor homophobes.

DO NOT intentionally misconstrue what I say. And yes, by all means anyone who stands for equal rights for gays deserves the credit.

[ThomCat]

31. Obama IS honoring homophobes instead of helping us.

When or If he finally decides to help us then he will deserve some credit for it, but not yet.

[Riktor]

43. This isn't an issue of kudos...

You cannot have a revolution without disproportionate malcontent.

And yes, the Klan is in part responsible for the success of the Civil Rights Movement. Their corruption of politics and embrace of violence was heavily publicized by the media, which turned popular opinion against them, even amongst Southern Whites. This doesn't mean we should fucking thank them, but to say they played no part in the success of desegregation and the Civil Rights bill is patently absurd.

Would the world know Mohandas Gandhi had the British not taken every opportunity to beat him and his followers around? It seems unlikely...

[Marr]

27. The Warren invitation bothers me in a way that is independent of gay rights.

It says to me that Obama is very anxious to court the political establishment, and that he'll happily alienate his base to do it. That does not inspire confidence in me, and it certainly does not speak of change.

*Every* progressive should be concerned about this invitation. I don't care what your issue is.

[defendandprotect]

33. This "progressive" is concerned . . .

Remember Clinton overturned a great deal --

and probably only a Democrat could have done that --- !/?

We may be in for more of the same ...

What's the saying? . . . "You can only really be betrayed by those closest to you"....

[yardwork]

36. This is the point that many of us - including LGBTQ - have been making.

Gay rights are human rights. Warren is a jerk in all aspects of human interaction. He's a snake oil salesman who demeans women, Jews, non-Christians (they're all "Christophobes" now, according to him), gay people, and everybody else who doesn't agree with his narrow patriarchal view in which he is top dog.

[tomp]

28. yeah, we elected obama so things could get worse before they get better.

the joke's on us.

[TahitiNut]

29. Joe, Joe, Joe ... (sigh) your post reminds me of something ... but it lacks the humor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo

Not funny, Joe. Sometimes the silver lining doesn't make up for the cloud. Like asking Mrs. Lincoln, "other than that," whether she enjoyed the play.

[Joe Fields]

37. Not intended to be funny. It's historically true.

Almost every movement was borne out of oppression of some sort. From that was always needed a catalyst to bring about change. I'm saying that the Warren issue is the catalyst. What part of that don't you understand?

[Chulanowa]

39. I have to disagree

Let's pretend that DU is a microcosm of Obama's "base" and even moreso, a nice sample of progressive Americans in general.

We're now entering Week 2 of the competition between "You either agree with me or you're a fucking homophobe" and "you're all just crazy drag, er, drama queens".

This is not exactly a healthy, helpful debate that's likely to get anyone anywhere. Now personally, I don't think Warren giving the Invocation is an issue worthy of the screeching from all sides. Jesus fucking christ, we have all this other shit going down, and we're devoting every ounce of our energy towards some flabby corpse-worshipper? However I have come to the beleif that, whether I think it's a big deal or not, Obama should toss the guy out on his ass. I'd figured Obama was painting the dumbass into a corner - "you want the free publicity, you play by my rules" - and then warren came up with his "response video" and in my mind, that's the perfect cause and excuse for Obama kicking him the hell out.

I've written to the man about it. I can't say I'm expecting a response (maybe I should get my 9 year old neice to write it? :) ) What have others here donw? I'd imagine half are spending all their time engaging in the sheer fun of an internet flamewar rather than trying to conduct according to their principles, whatever those principles may be.

And I did tell people to shut up. More specifically, I told them to stop screaming at each other online, and get htier asses in gear. March. Block roads. Flood Obama's offices with more mail than htey can shake a stick. Whatever you can do, it's going to be far better than what you're accomplishing by callign each other names on DU.

[Riktor]

44. Us and Them

It is a nasty habit of the mind to compartmentalize people between an excluded middle. While I am sure everyone around here threw their hands up in the air when Shrub proclaimed, "You're with us, or against us", it is frightening, yet utterly predictable, to see the same thing happening here. Maybe I would have been surprised if this happened five years ago, but as of late I have found myself jaded by the content of these forums.

[Chulanowa]

51. Well, I just make myself remember

...We've all had our psyches a bit traumatized for the last eight years. It's going to take some time for us to re-develop trust and work out all the latent anger

[wiley]

41. Well

It definitely got attention. It does not in any way push me away from the table, make me believe anything Warren says about my GLBT friends and family, or make me believe that the parasites of the world will just go away if they are not at the inauguration. And there will be a lot more people there who I absolutely do not support. But God will still be a source of strength and hope for everyone, including those who think Rick Warren is just another businessman who needs to present his product in a certain manner to sell it to scared and feebled minded people. I do still celebrate the fact that Obama not only beat McCain but Republicans are starting to get their due for their lying corrupt actions that have harmed so many people in this country. I still take great pride in knowing that there will be LGBT people of all races at the inauguration, and also that the Tuskegee Airmen will hopefully be able to be there. The idea that Obama does not support the rights of LGBT people in this country is just wrong. But like the insurance industry and lobbyists for just about every interest are amassing their forces, we need to be doing the same thing. If Rick Warren is helping this along then that's just two minutes of redemption on a long road.

[Truth Teller]

45. Let's do African Americans a favor and include a known racist as well

:sarcasm:

[donco6]

46. Hey, it might get them all unified 'n stuff!

So it can't be all bad.

[Truth Teller]

47. By this rationale, Bush was great for gays!

Really got them motivated and all!

[donco6]

48. Yeah! Life's never been BETTER!

I regret not voting for Palin.

And I have to add :sarcasm: in case someone really thinks I'm serious.

[Joe Fields]

53. Unfortunately, some people cannot see the forrest for the trees.

[Book Lover]

56. No. That's a good point and you're not addressing it. (nm)

[Joe Fields]

57. I didn't think I needed to address it.

I've witnessed what has happened in the last eight years under Bush. Gays haven't rallied. They've just been oppressed, like everyone else. It's a little different when we feel like one of our own has stabbed us in the back. You going to sit there and tell me this Warren crap hasn't stirred up a hornets nest of activism?

[Toasterlad]

59. You Almost Lost Me With This.

That's the same bullshit line that most every asshole who's tried to defend this unbelievably insulting pick has used during the course of this "debate". I believe you're coming from a better place, but your replies are, as a few others have pointed out, a tad patronizing.

Granted, gay people are up in arms over this, and I believe a lot of our allies are too, but not enough to make any kind of real impact. As evidenced on this board this past week, all too many self-professed "friends" of the gay community are more than happy to tell us that this is no big deal, and we shouldn't get so upset about it. As Obama has clearly demonstrated, the concerns of GLBT people are not a priority for him. He will not hear our complaints, as long as he has his ears turned toward the religious right, who he is apparently determined to woo at any and all cost. And right now, I can't imagine a single thing Obama could do to alienate any of those "friends" of the gay community. As long as we are the only ones* being slammed, we will inevitably be told to sit down and shut up every time Obama throws us under the bus, which I'd imagine will happen a great many times in the next four years.

*it's interesting to me that despite Warren's equally horrendous views on women and Jews, the pro-Warren crowd frames their arguments almost exclusively in gay terms, i.e. "the gays are whining for no good reason again." I can only assume that they feel their case is stronger if they focus exclusively on teh gay, as it is still politically acceptable to hate US. I hope I'm not the only one keeping score.

[Joe Fields]

60. Patronizing? No. Direct? Yes.

Don't underestimate the support or the impact it has made.

[1776Forever]

50. Rick Warren = Power Grab for Faith Based Monies - While showing dangerous behavior on gay issues

in Africa and the out-and-out abhorred way they profess to women to take abuse from their husbands!

Links to prove my statements:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1830147,00.html

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/12/19/untold-consequences-rick-warrens-aids-activism

[ColbertWatcher]

55. Not just gays but women as well. Thank you for the links. n/t

[Joe Fields]

58. And your point is...

These things I know. I agree with you.

[1776Forever]

62. You may have known this but do you think everyone who reads this thread does?

I was just trying to give credence to your point.