One thing I wonder about, concerning the Rick Warren debates here

[Smith_3]

Why is there no similar discussion about Warren's anti-choice stance, as there is about his anti-gay stance? I read countless posts of what a slap in the face for lgbt people he is. What about women in general? Nobody getting worked up about that? :shrug:

[billyoc]

1. Abortion is legal.

[NJmaverick]

2. I think there is one primary reason

that is that abortion rights didn't take the hit that gay rights took with Prop 8, and its ilk.

[dsc]

3. and he appointed all pro choicers to the cabinet departments where it matters

while not a single, solitary gay made the cut.

[skiddlybop]

4. Actually, choice does take the hit

and it's been happening state by state.

There has been plenty of complaint about this executive order that anyone can withhold birth control or abortion services or information based on religion.

I think the one and only good thing out of this is that people are starting to recognize/concede that opposing gay marriage or abortion are both ways of making gay people or women in need of the health care they choose into second-class citizens, because religion trumps their right to live their lives.

That's very very obvious and unacceptable to the vast majority of young people in this country. Generation Justice will see these things right.

[Jamastiene]

25. Generation Justice?

I like the sound of that. I hope y'all do make it right. I don't think a lot of people see just how serious that executive order really is. I hope more people will start to sit up and take notice.

[EFerrari]

5. I and others keep bringing up the fact that Warren is an equal opportunity offender

but the issue keeps getting re-framed as a GLBT issue.

:shrug:

One NY NOW chapter issued a statement and it got twisted around to mean, Obama didn't appoint enough women, which spun their multiple objections into "look how ungrateful they are".

[noamnety]

7. I started one of those threads

here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x103649

I opted to post it in the glbt forum, where it had a fair amount of support. (not a lot of responses, but voted onto the greatest page).

I posted it there because I see homophobia and misogyny as being so closely intertwined as to be in some ways almost indistinguishable (from the mindset of the bigot, not in terms of identical experiences of women and gays). The two are dependent upon male supremacy and patriarchal roles. I think the reason people like Warren hate two men being together, or two women being together, is that they can only conceive of a world where men are over women. If two men are together as equals, the world's not right because there is nobody acting as servant. And THAT, I think, is why they view it as destroying marriage. It's not threatening marriage itself, it's threatening their concept of marriage as a relationship where women serve men.

[EFerrari]

11. I'd go further and say, gay marriage threatens capital. But for now,

I've simply been looking at the retailing of these bigotries in America. "Social conservative" preachers / hucksters have to hit these bases: anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, anti-black in more coded language but still going strong, anti-intellectual. It's just turning the same matrix around a little and looking at how it's sold.

Warren is a new type insofar as he saw that the national brand was losing ground. So, he's invested in AIDS, poverty and in the evironment -- or, so he says. The problem is, he hasn't changed his business model at all and if you dig into that, you find that his "commitment" is about an inch deep and that most of the resources he claims to devote to those efforts stay within his control. In other words, it's a cosmetic, not a spiritual, effort.

[ColbertWatcher]

21. Don't know if you meant to, but ...

... I have to agree that Warren and his fellow hucksters are invested in AIDS, poverty and talking about the environment, instead of being invested in people with AIDS, helping people get out of poverty, and supporting people doing real science to protect the environment.

[EFerrari]

23. Exactly. And he folds it all back into promotion for his "leadership"

training product. As you would expect.

[Captain Hilts]

28. Being younger, he legitimizes these hateful views to a new generation.

And Obama's giving him the stage to do it.

[Captain Hilts]

27. Keep it up Sfexpat2000! He has offended a HUGE % of the population!

Congrats on the 49ers hanging in there to win.

[CLANG]

6. Anti-choice is defending a position against an act

Anti-gay is defending a position against a distinct group of people.

[niyad]

12. anti-choice is about woman-hating, period. ALL anti-choice arguments have, at their heart,

a profound hatred for women. each of the arguments states that some THING, or some ONE, is more important than the woman--whether it be the zef, the sperm donor, the church, the state, whatever. so, no, it isn't about an ACT--it is about a profound hatred for WOMEN.

[Th1onein]

18. I am anti-abortion and I don't hate women.

I don't think that ALL anti-choice arguments have hatred for women at their heart. I am anti-abortion because I think that all life should be revered. I am also anti-capital punishment for the same reason.

On the other hand, those who would choose to get rid of the health of the mother exception in the partial birth abortion ban ARE into hating women.

[CLANG]

19. I don't know what is in their hearts, whether they are woman-haters.

But thank FSM they are not in the majority.

[noamnety]

22. I see that as well.

The woman's body exists to serve others in some form - it's an inherently male supremacist/woman-as-servant point of view.

[gollygee]

24. I agree - it sets us up as less valuable than other people, and even future people

See my siggie. My body doesn't belong to anyone but me. If I choose to use it to nurture a baby (which I am coincidentally doing at this time), that is my choice and only mine.

[EFerrari]

34. Anti-choice defends the idea that women should have no autonomy. n/t

[Two Americas]

8. many have

Many have done what you say no one is doing.

Also, many of us have discussed the Warren issue in a broader context of general opposition to the right wing and the religious right, and as a stand for justice and equality everywhere for all. There has been much vehement resistance to that.

[ColbertWatcher]

9. I've tried to be very careful to make note of all the people Warren hates, but ...

... there are so many it's hard to keep up.

BTW, he also hates Jews, scientists, people who want to keep church out of state affairs, and ... I know I'm missing a whole bunch.

[EFerrari]

13. I'm still trying to find that conversation where he's overtly slamming black people.

It's out there and just a matter of time before it surfaces, imo.

[ColbertWatcher]

14. Is that something you remember hearing, or wouldn't put past him? n/t

[EFerrari]

16. I didn't hear it. It's just as surely part of his package as it is Palin's. n/t

[ColbertWatcher]

17. I don't expect it would be outright racism, but ...

... I do expect a tape or something he's written to be discovered that is veiled racism at the very least.

[EFerrari]

20. That's right. A rant about welfare or the death penalty or Affirmative Action

or the "inner city" or something in those coded terms. I've zero doubt it's out there. His wife had to go to Africa to find kids with AIDs to help. It's just a matter of time.

[leftofthedial]

10. I was worked up about his choice, period.

I daresay I've been as vocal as anyone about his selection. I'm straight, male, white and atheist.

Giving the podium to a hatemonger is not supportable on any level.

[gollygee]

15. This is how bigots work - they usually hate more than one group of people

I've posted about the many groups he hates, and I've read other people's posts about it. I guess the issue is that women have the right to abortion at this time, but gay people don't have the right to marriage. But yes he is hateful in many ways.

[Captain Hilts]

26. YES!!!! Or his anti-Catholic/Jew stances????

[omega minimo]

29. Here's an attempt

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4697313

[Skittles]

30. same reason why a black prez is such a milestone but

it gets overlooked that a woman has never been prez - and we are over 50% of the population. Sexism is so rampant it is accepted as normal.

[Texasgal]

31. Excellent point! n/t

[Toasterlad]

32. The Pro-Warren Faction Like to Downplay the Misogynistic and Anti-Semite Facets

Teh gay are much more unpopular than women or Jews.

[LeFleur1]

33. Warren is Against Women, Not Just Women Who Have Abortions

His website (and I assume his sermons) tout the tired old idea of suppression, that women should be submissive to men in all ways.

And that includes making decisions about their own health care and their own bodies.

It just irks me that such a person gets the microphone and the stage in an historic moment in this country's history.