Listening To Those Closest To The Problem

[Two Americas]

Poverty in America:

"Listening To Those Closest To The Problem"

I am honored to have been asked to write the third essay in the Poverty in America series, in honor of January as Poverty month. This series is produced by the Can You Hear the People Sing? project, founded and managed by Democratic Underground's own Bobbolink. Her tireless advocacy for those who have been left behind and forgotten, those who are paying the price for all of us, the price that is an inevitable and inescapable consequence of a society that has gone mad, and turned the reins over to the most rapacious and predatory few among us, is a constant source of inspiration for all of us.

The subject of this essay is listening, specifically asking whom we are listening to and whom we are not listening to in our activism and advocacy, and what the implications of that are.

Here is Jim Wallis on that subject:

Why listen to the poor? Well, there are good biblical and ethical reasons But there are also just plain practical reasons. Many youth- and community-serving programs have found what ten Point discovered: they couldn't get off the ground until they began to truly trust and engage and involve the people they were trying to serve. Many good and decent programs didn't become highly successful until the poor themselves were given a real hearing and became involved in their leadership. The presence of the poor in the discussion makes all the difference. I can testify to this fact. When young people are at the table for a discussion of youth violence and what to do about it, the conversation is very different from what is would be otherwise Too often, the discussions we have about poverty involve only the people who are working to overcome it.

Jim Wallis Faith Works

Jim Wallis is a bestselling author, public theologian, speaker, preacher, and international commentator on religion and public life, faith and politics. His latest book is The Great Awakening: Reviving Faith & Politics in a Post–Religious Right America (HarperOne, 2008). His previous book, God's Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It (Harper Collins, 2005), was on the New York Times bestseller list for 4 months. He is President and Chief Executive Officer of Sojourners; where he is editor-in-chief of Sojourners magazine, whose combined print and electronic media have a readership of more than 250,000 people. He has written eight books, including: Faith Works, The Soul of Politics, Who Speaks for God?, and The Call to Conversion.

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=about_us.display_staff&staff=Wallis

We can see that from a moral standpoint, as well as from a practical standpoint, it is important to listen to those who are closest to the problem. But is there more to it than that? Is there something we all lose when we do not listen? Rather than look at what "they" need, perhaps we should look at what we need.

If we all took vows of poverty...

A DUer recently wrote a very interesting thing. "If we all took vows of poverty, no one would be poor." That says in a few words, what I am trying to say with this essay. Those suffering from poverty and in desperate want and need are merely a manifestation of a much bigger problem, one that none of us are immune from, that all of us wrestle with every day.

We all do pay a price, do we not, for this ongoing human tragedy - people homeless and hungry, sick and cold, struggling and dying in a proud and wealthy nation, a nation drunk with greed and arrogance? One way or another, we all do pay a price. We are lulled into complacency and indifference. It does not take much to buy us off, to purchase our silence and complicity: a few trinkets, a little status, and we stay one step ahead of being homeless and destitute ourselves and earn a conditional and tenuous "stay of execution." We are weak, we are cowardly, and for every person without a meal tonight, or without a warm and safe place to sleep, there is a price that the rest of us pay by way of compensation, by way of a great balancing on a moral scale, a balancing of spiritual forces. The rough and inadequate physical reality faced by the few is mirrored in the spiritual impoverishment of the many, who are trapped in lives that are coarsened and so made rough, that are starved for love and compassion, that are empty of meaning and purpose - other than material success and status and the pursuit of entertainment - with no safe and warm place for their spirit to rest tonight and no hope of being truly at peace.

Beyond that, can we know ourselves if we do not know history and can we know history if we do not know the history of the poor? The history of the human race IS the history of the poor. It is not so much that it is hidden - it can be found everywhere, and the traces are right out in plain view - it is that we are led to look in the wrong places. We are being distracted and deceived. We are led to think that it is only the story of the big people, the somebodies, the wealthy and powerful that matters.

Just as we look to the stories of the wealthy and powerful to understand history, so too, we look to the important people today, the wealthy and powerful, to define and describe our own reality. We let others tell us who we are, what we are doing, and what is and what is not important. We discount and dismiss the stories of the common people, and when we do that we are dismissing and discounting ourselves, our own reality.

When we don't hear the voices of the poor, when we don't know their history, we do not know our own history. We have no foundation, not meaningful context for our lives. We become merely extras, temporary and poorly paid employees, filling small and constrained roles in a grand story that someone else controls and profits from. We are cut off from our own history, and so from our own experience. Denying the poor their voice denies them self-determination and when we do that we are surrendering our own vice and our own self-determination. On some profound level, we are our stories, and without a community that accepts and welcomes our story, we may as well not exist.

What is it that people are asking for?

I think that often the only thing poor people have ever truly asked for - what all people who are suffering ask for, as we saw recently regarding the Warren issue and the reaction from people in the GLBTQ community and their allies - is to be heard and not to be dismissed or ignored. That is the only way that we can overcome the gap - to understand the reality other people are living with. The resistance is not what some claim it to be - "don't get me wrong, I am on your side but I don't like the way you are going about this" - the resistance has been to listening, to hearing people. When people are not heard, are not listened to, naturally enough that is very frustrating and demeaning, and the inclination is to ramp up the rhetoric and to express resentment and anger. When those expressions of anger and resentment are then portrayed as the cause of the problem, and the original provocation is ignored, people justifiably feel even more marginalized, more dismissed and more mistreated. They ARE being dismissed and ignored and mistreated.

Being heard, being acknowledged and recognized and respected, is the very foundation of being seen as an equal, as a human being with full membership in the human community. All oppression and bigotry starts with not listening to people, not granting them that very basic human need. It is the first step in making people disappear, and the last step - the actual murdering of human beings - is a reality.

Bobbolink passed along this quote to me from Larry James, a community organizer in Dallas, and I think this describes some of the ways that we fail to listen, some of the barriers we put up, and also suggests that the point of listening to those less fortunate is not because they need something that we in our arrogance flatter ourselves that we have and can give, but rather that the less fortunate have things that we all desperately need.

If your mission is to grow community then. . .

. . .People cannot be treated as projects.

. . .People cannot be treated as problems.

. . .People cannot be treated as "opportunities for ministry."

. . .People cannot be treated as if they should be disconnected or disengaged from the primary process at work.

. . .People must not be seen as clients.

. . .People must be trusted and valued as they are, for who they are.

You see, transforming truth is quite different.

The truth is, people are my neighbors and I am their neighbor.

The truth is, people, all people are powerful.

The truth is, people are beautiful, promising, full of wonder and great, great potential.

People power--it is the only place to start, to live, to conclude.

Larry James is the President and CEO for Central Dallas Ministries, a human and community development corporation with a focus on economic and social justice at work in inner city Dallas, Texas.

http://larryjamesurbandaily.blogspot.com/2006/04/community-development-101-part-one.html

What is it that we trade away, what do we lose when others are poor and suffering, what is the cost to all of us? It is easy for us to see what others are missing - meals, a home, heat - but what are we missing? What do we lack? What price do we pay in order to not be poor, what compromises do we make? How much of our lives is consumed by the fear of poverty, and how might our lives look were we not so consumed by that fear? Is it that fear that makes it difficult for us to listen to others? Are we not crippled ourselves by that, more so than those who have been forced to face the hardships we fear? What price o we pay, how our our lives diminished when we harden our hearts and close out ears to the cries of the suffering?d

Power and strength can separate people; whereas weakness and recognition of weakness and the cry for help brings people together. When you are weak, you need people. It's very easy. When you are strong you don't need people, you can do everything on your own. So, somewhere the weak person calls people together. And when the weak call forth the strong, what happens is they awaken what is most beautiful in a human person--compassion, goodness, openness to another and so on. Our weakness brings people together.

- Jean Vanier
http://www.larche.org/jean-vanier-founder-of-l-arche.en-gb.23.13.content.htm

I think that what happens for many people when discussions about poverty and the homeless begin is that they immediately start thinking about themselves, rather than about the issue, let alone about the people who are closest to the problem. "Am I compassionate? Am I not? No, no, no I am nothing at all like those callous Republicans. Am I a good person? Am I not? How dare people imply I don't care? I don't think I am a bad person. Why should I have to defend myself? I probably can't say anything without someone jumping on me. That isn't fair, is it? Why should I be abused? I don't hate poor people. I am opposed to poverty."

It is impossible to listen to others when we are so obsessed with ourselves, when we can only see the issue in terms of what is going in for us internally. I think people start experiencing fear, confusion, shame, guilt and doubt in their minds about the issue of poverty, and then project that out onto others and blame people for causing those feelings they had. This can quickly become blame heaped onto those who are poor.

People want to be heard, need to be heard. It is a fundamental human need, and it is everyone's right to be heard. People who are poor are often saying nothing more than "why can't we be heard? Why is our reality being denied? Why do we have to jump through hoops when others do not? Why are we permitted no mistakes? Why can't we be full partners, equal members of the community? Why are we always put into a separate category, held to different standards?"

Let's start listening

Let's stop trying to solve poverty by "fixing" those who have fallen into poverty - seeing them as the problem. Let's start listening.

When we confront the national travesty of poverty and homelessness, we immediately have the urge to start applying solutions, immediately think that we have the answers and that those who are poor do not. We assume, often without realizing that we are, that if people knew what they were doing or had anything to offer they would not be poor. So we lecture them about self-esteem, we try to "help" people to become more like us, we give out advice as to how an individual can "get back on their feet." We quickly move away from any deeper discussion, we are resistant to hearing what poor people are saying.

I think that the "self-esteem" idea, as well as the advice as to how one can take steps as an individual to get "back into the system" are part of the pervasive right wing agenda of rugged individualism and "look out for number one." That is the cause of poverty, and can never be part of the solution. Yet too many of us embrace that agenda. If we listened to poor people, we would know that.

Poverty is an issue for all of us

Poverty is a social issue, not a personal issue. Politics is about social issues, changing conditions so that they are more humane, not about individual self-improvement strategies. We need to listen to individuals, those actually facing the challenge on behalf of all of us, and then seek political solutions, public programs that will change the conditions. Instead, we are tempted to deny people their reality, their story, and then offer recommendations for personal strategies they can - or should - take.

Poverty is not the result of there being something wrong with the poor that we need to fix or improve, it is the result of something wrong with the system, a system for which we are all responsible and from which we all suffer. Those who have fallen into poverty, or have been driven into it, know better than any of us what is wrong with the system.

The problem is that we do not esteem other human beings, not that people lack self-esteem, and lecturing the poor about their "self-esteem" and advising them how to adjust to a brutal and inhumane system just adds to the cruelty. We treat our pets better than we do each other. We don't blame and judge our pets. Too often, an abandoned or abused dog story here gets far more attention and sympathy than an abandoned or abused human story does. In the case of the person, we ask what they might have "done wrong" or what might be wrong with them. We place no such burden on our pets, no such conditions on our love and compassion toward them.

People are not telling themselves that they are not worthy, it is being relentlessly pounded into them from all directions. We all battle against this - as we frantically and obsessively seek status and wealth and power, whether we want those things or not, so that we can then hope to "break even" - so that we can be seen as worthy of breathing and eating and having a roof over our heads. We live in constant fear of suddenly becoming unworthy and being thrown to the pavement and crushed under the juggernaut of "success" - otherwise known as greed, callous indifference to others, and selfishness.

Let's look at the perpetrators, not the victims. Let's look at those who apologize for the bullies, for the predators, for the selfish and greedy who are driving this abomination, who profit from it. Let's look at those who speak of "survival of the fittest" and "poverty will always be with us" and "the free market" and "competition" and "social Darwinism." Let's look at the conditions, not the individuals. Let's look into our own hearts, and not at what "they" should be doing to "get better." We should look at those who are profiting from these conditions in order to see what is wrong, and listen to those suffering from the conditions to find solutions. Yet we do the opposite.

Where do we stand?

Let's start with this, shall we? - all human beings have a right to housing, heat, clothing, and food, without qualifications or conditions. Let us remain steadfast to that program, without compromise. That should be our public, political stance. But then let us be flexible, forgiving, non-judgmental, and open-hearted with those among us who are suffering. They are suffering on all of our behalf. They know. We do not. They have more to give us than we have to give them.

Let's stop saying to people "here is how to improve yourself, here are the hoops and hurdles to negotiate, here is how to live your life, here is how to meet expectations, and then - THEN - and only then, you MIGHT, if everything goes right, if you make no mistakes, if no accidents happen, if you are very, very lucky - THEN you might be able to eat and to have a home." Those are the conditions to which we are all submitting now. Our job is to change those conditions. That must start with listening to those who are closest to the problem.

We must overcome the fear of poor people, the anxiety that we may somehow catch the disease of we get too close, or are too open to what they have to say. We must overcome the arrogant notion that the more fortunate know more than the less fortunate. We must overcome the idea that poverty and homelessness are merely problems involving material well being, and that the problem is only with those who are less fortunate rather than a problem that we all share.

We have much to learn, and until we do our lives will continue to be spiritually impoverished, our spirits will be homeless. We can only learn by listening.

In solidarity,
Two Americas

...

Previous essays in the Poverty in America series -

Poverty in America: Remember EVERYTHING MLK Stood For - dajoki
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4855586

Poverty in America: the Old and the New - maryf
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4844491

Poverty in America: Taxes - Hannah Bell
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4800489

Poverty in America: Truth Hurts, Ignorance Kills - JeffR
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4754889

Fifteen Minutes a Week: An Appeal for Help - JeffR
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4697093

copyright: peoplesing.org

[maryf]

1. We're listening to wisdom!! Big k & r

Beautiful post Two Americas!! Thanks so much for such sage words of advice for all.

"We have much to learn, and until we do our lives will continue to be spiritually impoverished, our spirits will be homeless. We can only learn by listening."

Wow, I'm speechless, that is a quote for the ages!!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[TheKentuckian]

2. K&R

:kick:

People need to internalize this.

[bobbolink]

119. Can you imagine what a society this would be if most of us knew this at a very deep level?

thank you.

:hi:

[FreeState]

3. K&R thank you! n/t

[Zodiak]

4. K&R

Yeah, it's long, but it is ever so important for us Democratic progressives to digest and internalize.

The more people you know who are in poverty, the more it becomes morally clear that we must fix this problem or forever be locked in a system that literally makes our souls sick.

[Bluenorthwest]

5. A wonderful post, deserving of attention and action

TwoAmericas you are one fine writer, and this post is the tops.
I've bookmarked, which is rare for me...

[G_j]

6. excellent post

highly recommended!

[smokey nj]

7. K&R!

[Two Americas]

10. hey smokey!

Good to see you.

[OneGrassRoot]

8. Bravo. Bravo. Bravo.

Wow, TA, that was brilliant. I shall pass this along far and wide.

Thanks to Bobbo and all of you for your enlightening words of wisdom and action items. Thanks also for the links within your essay.

All I can say is, thank you. Thank you, all.

And, of course, a heartfelt K&R!

:grouphug:

[4 t 4]

13. Outstanding once again TA

and Bobby keep up the good work. We need to really listen Everyone needs to go to their local Starbucks and sign up for 5 hours to help I am working with one of the local food stores here and a Church with an open pantry every Thursday. The store throws out so much perfectly good food and the pantry needs it.

[bobbolink]

9. I think only when one has experienced being discounted and ignored can one REALLY appreciate

how very important it is to be HEARD.

All the "experts" have taken over, and we are treated as.."Project". "Problems"

Then people wonder why we have so little "ambition".

IT WAS TAKEN AWAY!!

Thanks for this very enlightening post, TwoAmericas, and I can only hope that the vast majority of DU hears you on THIS!!

[undergroundpanther]

27. It either is taken away

or crushed,and if our ambition is not in line with the wealthy's ambitions,our ambitions won't even be seen by some as valid contributions to society because it does not fit the mold.

Look how many times when I bring up disability issues, poverty or SSI or welfare and the like..Eventually I will get judgmental posts pointed at me,painting me as a monster..So many resentful overworked people out there who want to let out their anger on me instead of the real oppressors the rich,the BOSS..So they try to play kick the cat,playing out the standardized social pecking order bullshit game right here on DU..These assuming rude people will say alot of shit about me or hammer on my writing style or some other childlike snark tactics.

BUT reality is,they do not know me,are not part of my life .They don't even bother to listen to me really,learn about me, let alone understand why I am as I am and I do as I do.Fact is they do not care.They just want a scapegoat to kick and because what I say gets under their skin, I get to be the target.
I see this same patterns play out over and over, with others here too. It happens routinely on certain topics,with anyone here who DARES to feel compassion,,or who dares to have a boundary that's unpopular, those who are tenderhearted or sensitive,get run down.The intelligent,or creative,get called crazy. And anyone who advocates for, or who are "the least among us" they all risk getting made a target.
And the "professionals" wonder why the medications do not erase the symptoms. It's because they refuse to look at the social causes of dispair. Duh'Oh.

[bobbolink]

28. In short, poverty isn't "COOL", it's not "SEXY".... you can't go to a poverty rally

and crow about it on DU or anywhere else.

When it finally becomes "Cool", then others will stop ragging on us so much.

WE know what PREJUDICE is all about, because we get it all the time, and it's allowed and approved by "progressives"!!

:hug: :loveya:

[Tsiyu]

91. "sexy"

It's so funny we used the same word on two different threads to describe why people don't pay attention.

I've been gone a while from here and I'm glad to see you.

You have been in my thoughts all year as I opened my eyes to the things people say. (And to some of the things I've said)

There are some well off people who offered to help me when things were really tight over the summer and I let a homeless friend move in for a while after he attempted suicide. He called me from a taxi on his way from being released from the psych ward because noone - none of his wealthy friends - would help him.(he is now doing much better in his own place.)

But the "help" they offered was really just a reason to lecture me. I had helped one of these women so many times, never telling anyone, never lecturing her. When she felt she needed to help me, it was more a situation of "How can I tell you how you got into this mess so that I don't have to be bothered with you anymore?"

That isn't help, people. Because it comes with a condition: "You have to admit you're not as good as I am."


edited to add: You know why my friend was homeless? While he was in the psych ward, the family he was renting from evicted him...

[bobbolink]

96. Can you say more about that process of awareness?

"as I opened my eyes to the things people say. (And to some of the things I've said)"

I think it's hard for those of us who *do* understand these things to figure out how to inspire that growth in others.

Maybe you can help with this!

Thanks! :hi:

[Tsiyu]

108. I can give it a try

When my friend called to say he had tried to commit suicide, I freaked. Suicide is a trigger for me because my oldest kids' dad chose that option and because another partner tried to manipulate me by threatening it all the time.

I immediately started ragging my friend about that and focusing on how he could do that to his friends and then I said...STOP (to myself) THIS IS NOT HELPFUL.

My conversation then became "What do you need?" He had a hard time telling me what he needed and I had to just come out and say "Do you need a place to stay?" I began to focus on what he needed - versus my own reaction to what he had done - and on listening to what he had to say rather than on how hurt I was that he didn't come to me before he took a few bottles worth of pills.

And it dawned on me then that my own weaknesses, PTSD, whatever thought processes I had, stood in the way of clearly seeing my friend's problems. I also think that guilt plays a part because I'm someone who wants to help everybody and I felt at a loss as to how to help him. So it was easier to judge than to listen.

But it's important to note that we people in poverty are no more or less saintly, criminal, perfect, imperfect, guilty or blameless than anyone else. The vice chancellor of a local university is in AA but he is worshipped. My friend had serious alcohol issues but he was judged (even by me) because poor people are demonized for the problems we "laugh off" when affluent people have them.

Like I've said elsewhere in this thread, I'm looked down on by a lot of people(even my own family) for my poverty, but I've never let it really get to me. I do try to keep a positive attitude but I live in a rural place where more people live in poverty than not. I don't have that attitude around me of consumerism, of perfect cars and homes and jobs and clothes. Because I don't have that pressure every day, it is easier for me to remain positive. It's hard for me to relate to people who live their soft suburban lives, but I also realized it is hard for me to relate to poor people not living in a poor rural area. It's more "tribal" here, and poor people aren't fighting against each other so there is moral support and companionship and the feeling of acceptance I would not find if I were poor anywhere else in America.

Spending time in the legal system also opened my eyes to the way the deck is stacked against the poor.

And I think also that part of my own mentality - because of the messages I've received in life - that says "this is the best you can expect" allowed me to believe that about myself and about what society can do.

After a wealthy corporation tried to screw me - the same corporation my friend still works for - it totally opened my eyes to the way the rich continually take what little the poor have and how no one seems to care. The corporation did this to so many people and they did it to my friend this year. They overreport your earnings, claiming you made money while you were on unemployment (I was warned this would be done to me if I filed a claim during the summer layoff but I didn't listen.) The state gives you 10 days to respond or you're immediately accused of fraud. They even include an envelope for your payment!

In my case, the place I worked was closed all summer and my pay was direct deposited so I had proof I didn't make that $800 the state claimed I made. But I had to raise holy hell with a dozen people before my name was cleared.

The reason they try this crap is so they can knock these people off the unemployment rolls. Once you're "convicted" by the state you are not eligible for unemployment.

This year, 3/4ths of the people who worked for Aramark at the University of the South received a letter claiming they were overpaid while collecting unemployment. They were ALL no doubt innocent, but the State of Tennessee lets Aramark continue to get away with this.

When I asked my friend why nobody reported their asses like I did, he said they were all afraid of losing their jobs. (I was no longer employed with them when I received my letter.) So all of these people - who are truly "the least of these" are now ineligible for unemployment when they get laid off and Aramark gets a break on their unemployment insurance.

The reality of that situation made me truly understand how the rich screw the poorest of the poor every chance they get. If Aramark really did over-report earnings (as I believe they did because I proved they did it to me and I was told by other Aramark employees that they proved it was done to them) that multibillion dollar company is STARVING THE POOR OF THIS MOUNTAIN.

The University doesn't care. They would rather teach classes about poverty in Third World countries than help the poor Appalachian people who cook their food, so it's very sad and hopeless. You hear Sewanee people claim that everyone poor on this mountain is lazy and just a druggie, when they are actually in effect impoverishing those people with impunity.

I could say more but that's enough for now. Many things opened my eyes this year.

[Fireweed247]

115. Thanks for your perspective

This is really important...I think this plays a big role in why many people appear to be indifferent and uncaring.

"I also think that guilt plays a part because I'm someone who wants to help everybody and I felt at a loss as to how to help him. So it was easier to judge than to listen."

[bobbolink]

117. It sounds like you learned a lot about systemic poverty.

USians, for the most part (including "progressives") DON"T want to look at this. The blame the person on the bottom schtick is so much more rewarding to them.

And look at those poor people in those downtrodden countries--they are the ones who are REALLY poor, not you here in the US. (And this is repeated right here on DU all the time!! And I even heard people in the Edwards campaign say this shit!)

No, we don't want to LOOK at the reality, because, as you said, it makes us squirm. We KNOW we are accepting it, and that means WE are part of the problem.

Heaven forbid we should ever look inside ourselves.

:cry:

Thank you for sharing this!! :hi:

[Two Americas]

125. another great post

Thanks very much for this. I was hoping that people would bring us the stories, just as the one you are telling us here. There are many great posts on this thread, and I am going back through and reading all of them closely.

This cheating and robbing from the poor is epidemic. Think of what the consequences of this are. Everyone working for that company is involuntarily complicit, or living in fear. The school is looking the other way, and is corrupted by that. For many, this little action, this intentional cheating, could be the straw that breaks the camel's back, the thing that pushes them over the edge and into a downward spiral of misery. Lives are destroyed. Everything is tarnished and trashed. People become discouraged. Communities collapse.

[Fireweed247]

116. "resentful overworked people out there who want to let out their anger on me...

instead of the real oppressors the rich,the BOSS"

That sounds about right. Please don't take it personally, some people are jerks.
:hug:
I dream of a society that values not only the money makers, but the artists, the poets, the musicians, the philosophers, the altruists and the free thinkers that add the flavor to life. Anyone who only values their money and judges other who aren't so focused are truly "the least among us".

[truedelphi]

72. What you say. I cannot better express what I was

Thinking than what you are saying.

[ulysses]

11. excellent.

[juno jones]

12. K&R!

Excellent work, Two Americas!

And a call out to Bobbolink for putting in the time to notify us about your postings!

Thank you.

[skeewee08]

14. Beautiful!

[bobbolink]

122. Thanks!!

Hope to see you for the next essay, too!

:hi:

[undergroundpanther]

15. KnR for Two Americas!!

I thought about this part of your article..

<<I think that often the only thing poor people have ever truly asked for - what all people who are suffering ask for, as we saw recently regarding the Warren issue and the reaction from people in the GLBTQ community and their allies - is to be heard and not to be dismissed or ignored.>>

I thought also on that list should be added,to not be scapegoated, or judged. To be ignored and dismissed hurts because we become invisible.To be scapegoated,or belittled it hurts another way. Yes we get attention but that kind of attention harms us, on purpose,because we won't stay invisible, or perform.

Having an identity that is different does not have to be wrong does it?
Being poor shouldn't be seen as evil but it is,just ask the prosperity jesus or a republican.
Having limits concerning what you can do or endure or can't do or endure should never become a badge of pride or shame.And it should never be an excuse to scapegoat,or ignore your pain and let you suffer and die.

The myth of the self made success story must go away.Because it is a BIG FAT LIE.
Every smug "successful" person who says they have risen to the top,despite their own issues is not helping anyone really. Because everyone has unique combinations of circumstances, events and things in life that are beyond their own control. This success story might make things seem so easy but each success story out there omits alot of the dirty and bitter reality .

It might not be easy for you to do as they did and "succeed" no matter how hard you try, sometimes you still fail.So in effect these sorts of stories with all it's inspirational words can seem cruel to a person's ears when they are worn down by a system that sees them as less than a person,that makes them nobody,in fact such happy little Horatio Alger stories are bragging and bullshit.

Because being poor to many feels like a cage and every time you try to get out you fall right back in,but deeper. Some cannot do this success game over and over forever,so they stop it.

Maybe, just, maybe they can't endure what some brag about enduring them selves.We all have our limits if we pass those limits and we will break down.

For me, trauma limits what I can endure.My spine limits what I can do. Pain can really make your day hell.
Because I can't endure what others appear to do with ease it is assumed I am somehow inferior to them. Or I am malingering or some such shit. So I get the braggarts assuming of how awful I am ,I NEED a "strategy for success" lecture or I get some silly cognitive behavior therapist or therapist wannabe saying if I think happy thoughts I will magically become happy!! That, is ,crap.

We as a society are going to have to accept some people can't do some things.Some cannot work.Some cannot do certain jobs,some don't have the physical or mental or emotional abilities others have.That some people are hurt and cannot do what you can do or tolerate what you tolerate.

And that is reality. That is PEOPLE.

In a money dominated culture people are reduced to commodities and if you are a commodity, you are a product, a thing. And things should do what the owner of the product demands it do.The things that do not do as the owner demands are deemed either a threat or defective. They are slated to die slow, like through poverty,invisibility like the poor and disabled,police threats, job loss or jail like those wanting worker rights or to form unions or want health care.This is because the rich don't care what our little lives are like They really don't.They feel no shame as they take the irreplaceable days of our lives away as if our lives , our reason to exist are for the rich to exploit us all for profits..


Reality is some people really can't overcome what adversities you have overcome. And healing is not a one size fits all process either. And a healed & satisfied & happy person is not very profitable either.

Thinking happy thoughts as some claim does not help everyone out of poverty or ease their suffering for long.Thinking happy thoughts as if thinking happy draws prosperity to you or gives you the 'strength' to overcome what you cannot overcome is harmful bullshit.

A kind of Magical thinking that even some psych professionals tout as if it was 'therapeutic '. It is nothing but a trend to legitimize denial, and it is new age bullshit too.
Our society loves to lay problems at the feet of individuals who can't do as they do.But NEVER are we to say society is sick. And we must never say that it is insanity for the top one percent rich to own like 90% of the world's wealth,and that might be THE PROBLEM so many individuals are sick!!


Anyway how can one person tell another person exactly how to overcome an issue or barrier that they, them self cannot understand? They can't. This is because they don't bear it ,never had to bear it and they are not the person feeling that struggle them self.

It is very arrogant to assume you know what another person faces in their lives what circumstances they had or to judge how hard they try by your own standards. It's pure Hubris to put up an arbitrary measuring stick,against another person's struggling.A self serving measuring stick of your own design comparing them to yourself or others you think overcame similar barriers? and sure enough if there is no abeyance or proper deference or another attempt made that measuring stick becomes a whipping stick.Internalize that bull shit judgementalism against you, you will be whipping yourself with that fucking stick. Wondering why you can't perform on cue like THEY can.

How fucking arrogant and patronizing that stupid success game is.Another excuse for not listening .That arrogant assuming,judging and condemning of those who can't or who try and give up.You'd be surprised how much of that sick arrogance drives certain underlying agendas of those that want to help the poor or disabled ,but they sure as hell do not want to LISTEN to us!!

Great article Two Americas,you kicked ass!

[Two Americas]

26. yes

You are making some excellent points here, undergroundpanther.

We are awash in the "visualize your way to wealth and success" doctrine, a variation on the "think positive" and "be happy" idiocy, and really nothing more than the liberal version of Reagan era bootstrap individualism. If greed and bullying are the cause of the problem, how can applying more greed and bullying be a solution? Asking ourselves hypothetically what would happen if we all took vows of poverty is the antidote to that thinking. That commits us to rejecting the pursuit of wealth and material things as the purpose of our lives. Isn't it odd - and insane - that people will look at you as morally inferior if you do not make greed and selfishness the purpose of your life?

"Some cannot do this success game..."

Indeed. Some cannot. Some will not. Most wish they did not have to. And this is not the few, it is the many, who are left out. We separate people into various groups - oh, those lazy ones; oh, those mentally ill ones; oh, those handicapped ones; oh, those stupid ones; oh, those unmotivated ones; oh, those old ones; oh, those gay ones; oh, those who made bad choices; oh, those minority people. Then people will say "well sure, they have it rough, I can see that, and don't get me wrong I am sympathetic." But we fail to see the forest for the trees. It is only a small number of the people who are not left behind, but by separating people into groups, we can maintain the illusion that most can, or should, play the success game, and completely ignore the question of whether or not anyone wants to play this success game. By saying "don't get me wrong, I support (gays, the homeless, the poor), but..." liberals can have it both ways - they can support the success game, while denying any responsibility or complicity in the horrors that the success game inevitably causes.

A recent Pew Research study shows that only 12% of the population thinks that survival of the fittest social Darwinism is an appropriate foundation for one's life and for society, and see personal wealth and power as the most important goals in life. Why are the rest of us forced to live that way? Why must we see that as "human nature" and as inevitable and inescapable?

[bobbolink]

29. "by separating people into groups, we can maintain the illusion "

BINGO!!

How many times do I keep begging "progressives" not to keep saying "THe veterans are most important", "The children are most important", etc etc etc.

By continuing to divide OURSELVES, we perpetuate the assinity!

[Hannah Bell]

77. the divisions are encouraged, then used to play groups off against each other.

I used to have a boss who did the same thing. Told people different things to keep them suspicious of & in conflict with each other. Kept the power in his hands that way.

[bobbolink]

87. Absolutely, so why do we "progressives" play into this?

It's time to develop the smarts to overcome the opposition, rather than to cooperate and play the game with them.

[Two Americas]

101. wow

You are hinting at something that is really important, I think.

Why is it that people see things like this every day in their personal life, but then deny that any of that is happening on a larger scale? I see that again and again.

[undergroundpanther]

40. Human nature?

Human nature? What about when people are not forced to compete against each other to live, are not preyed upon how does it affect their "nature"? Living in less violent cultures that have no tolerance for the antics of bullies or manipulators,They may have a VERY DIFFERENT nature.


I was watching a show about killer squid on Animal Planet last night.
Humboldt's squid have attacked fishermen. These squid have been seen again retold by fishermen who are hunting the squid for profits of course,that the squid were attacking each other,even squid to squid cannibalism was seen when the water was full of blood from the harpooned squid as the squid were fighting against a vicious predator that is the fishermen in the fisher boats..

But truth is away from the predators,the threats and violence.. Humboldt's squid were found to not be vicious, to each other or to divers in a non violent situation. In fact they were inquisitive,gentle, intelligent,peaceful,they cooperated together in hunting for skrill,they communicate with kick ass displays of flashing colors on their skin( it was so cool made me wish I could do that too(panther is jealous of the cephalapods!!)

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/encountering-sea-monsters/video-humboldt-squid-makes-contact/1032/




These Squid were not these ghastly vicious monsters of the deep as the fishermen thought.

The story of the Hum bolt's squid in some ways is the story of humanity,and what happens to our nature when it is being ruthlessly exploited ,tortured or slowly murdered by an impersonal yet very predatory system ruled by corporations and the predatory.This system of exploitation we live under are to us much like the fishermen are to the squid..No wonder things are as they are,and human nature if it is seen as predatory,I think is because we live among predatory people in a culture that teaches us to abuse or be abused.Or be prey or predator or die.

This "be predator or prey" mentality betrays the real truth about human nature,and nature itself. Just like Humboldt's squid are not horrible monsters really,unless they are hooked by nasty hooks pulled out of the water stabbed and tossed in a bin,to be sorted and sold.Truth is,living around ruthless uncontrolled predators makes us all sick.

And this uncontrolled predation however is appears always cuts out a third option,Living in balance and integrity,
sharing,cooperating,letting each other thrive and nature thrive together.Give some ,take some.And accepting we are all unique,life is diverse and we need each other.To have a non predator dominated culture it means accepting an ugly reality that requires the doing what you have to do, to stop a predator from exploiting ,threatening, or harming people.stuff like enforcing boundaries in relationships or in culture to protect the culture itself from over- predation(greed is a form of over-predation that is destructive to the whole) from outside or inside the culture itself.

We have to stand up for each other to ensure we never are forced or convinced by deceptive predators walking among us,that is is OK to prey upon each other.This"competition" winner gets the spoils mentality of predators masquerading as "human nature,and that shit being repeated so much it seems like truth
is blinding us to our real nature and the real dangerous people's "nature".

(Like in the show I saw,We are somewhat like the squid being hunted,when we are preyed upon in a violent soul killing way and feel helpless to stop it,we start attacking each other, instead of the cause of our suffering. As I watched this show I couldn't help but wish the Squid would flip the boats and pull the fishermen under the water to drown. If the squid did that often enough in effect would reinforce the idea it is too dangerous to hunt for Hum-bolt's squid,so most people would stop hunting them,and the squid could live in peace.) (I am sure we don't NEED Calamari at the levels these animals are hunted)


Anyway,
Likewise we cannot go on attacking one another to avoid the predator who is really causing the problems, over using us or causing the injuries/traumas to us.
This is not inescapable situation really... Predatory people would want you to think it is inescapable tho. Like I said I wished the squid would've flipped the fishing boats...)It takes standing up for ourselves and each other unafraid to do what you have to do,to protect yourself,others and our culture from the few predators,abusing us, bleeding us dry for profits or power.

There is a way out and it is one the predators and frightened prey appeasing predators would rather us not remember.

[maryf]

43. I recommend this post!!

As Lao Tsu said, (and I paraphrase), "he cannot be competed with who will not compete", if we stop competing and start cooperating, we just may have a chance...

[Two Americas]

47. the "human nature" lie

Human beings lived in cooperative communal societies, close to their food source and nurtured and supported by traditional culture from tome immemorial until very recently, and the last vestiges still survive.

The "human nature" of capitalism - that is, capital being given more consideration than labor, profits being placed above people, self-aggrandizement being prized above community, and all of this being seen as inevitable and inescapable - is very modern, and contradictory to human survival.

If what we have now is the inevitable result of "human nature," then why has it required so much effort, why have so many millions needed to be killed in order to force us into accepting it? Why are the defenders of the system always so frantically trying to suppress any contrary or dissenting thoughts? Why are billions spent every year to relentlessly pound it into our heads? Were it "human nature," none of that would be required.

[bobbolink]

107. You cut right to the heart of the matter!

After a while, we all tend to reflect those we are around.

I think it takes a very strong person to be around verbal violence and not reflect it in some way.

It is said that love brings out the best in the person you love. The opposite is also true.

We can CHOOSE to bring out the best in others, and we often CHOOSE to bring out the worst.

And then we make it easy on ourselves by calling it "Human Nature".

[redqueen]

16. K&R

[malaise]

17. Important post

K & R
Bookmarked

[skygazer]

18. Wonderful, wonderful essay

K&R

This is so true - people tend to look at the poor as a problem to be fixed. When I was divorced with 2 small children, I had to apply for welfare benefits and I was treated like a cog in a wheel, playing no part in my own story. It is dehumanizing and discouraging.

One of the things that encourages me about Obama is the fact that he was a community organizer. I want to hear him say more about poverty but the fact that he has worked WITH people rather than just FOR them gives me hope.

Great job. :applause:

[Two Americas]

34. "it is dehumanizing and discouraging".

Thank you for sharing that skygazer.

I often wonder which is cause and which is effect. Are people ignored, dismissed, and dehumanized because they are poor? Or are people poor because we first ignore, dismiss, and dehumanize them?

I learned from working in elder care, that there is no one you can justifiably toss away or ignore. When people slip a little - in mental faculties, in health and competence or intelligibility - others tend to pull away. The more they pull away, the more the person slips. The more they slip, the more people pull away. But if you sit and listen, of you hang in there, the communication pattern starts going the opposite direction. we have a shared humanity with the infirm, with the incompetent and suffering. This is not merely flowery words. In some ways, we are all infirm, we are all poor, we are all suffering - the differences are in degree. Some of us are blessed because we are easy to listen to, and can quickly be understood in a few seconds. Others, it may take hours to understand, and it may not be easy to listen to them at first. But the more we invest, the greater our reward. That is because when we find our shared humanity in another, we reclaim it for ourselves as well, and the deeper that shared humanity is buried, the more precious and powerful it will be for us.

[maryf]

44. Attach this to your OP...

its another critical aspect of listening: the buried treasure in all of us...listening is the only shovel that will unbury it...

[undergroundpanther]

46. Two Americas

I wish like hell I knew you,(and Stargazer) when I was 14.


Back than I was dying inside, because nobody wanted to take the time to listen,they all wanted control however..

When I was 15,I went to my first psych ward. I was lucky to have a really cool shrink. Every night before he left for the day,around 10 pm,he would tap on my door,come in and just listen to me,he might ask a question or two. I never had anyone do that before.So I often just sat there and we listened to pink floyd together..

One day he came in sat in the chair and I started crying ,into my artwork(and it was watercolors too) he asked why I was so sad. I told him the truth,which was I never had anyone even want to hear me before,or take the time to wait for me to see if I can trust them so I could feel safe to let them inside here (pointing at my chest).Then the water works started again. He hugged me. I thanked him.The painting was of a cat in a feild of psychedelic flowers,my tear spots I made into more blooms,if you looked close you could tell water drops fell there,(can't"erase" watercolor that easy).Before he left I gave it to him.

And until my discharge he came by my room every night taking the time,some nights we sat there until 1 am,and he said he didn't mind at all.

When he died years later, I was at another psych hospital,my mom called me to tell me and I cried my eyes out.The staff there were not big on listening but really got into control,and order.I was tossed into the "quiet room" no questions asked,no reasons given.So I presume it was for crying on the phone.And of course that pissed me off.

Not listening does a hell of a lot of damage to people,even ones who have never been labeled anything.I see it all the time now,when people listen to others often they really don't.It's more like they're shutting up,tolerating the other until they cannot contain the sagely advice,retort or reply to you they made up in thier heads anymore or they'll bust..It's impatience, a sort of egotistic selfish pseudo listening,hurry up so I can talk now kinda thing.To me that ain't listening..

The art of listening is a lost art it seems..I am glad my first shrink listened,in turn by example he taught me what real listening is all about.

[bobbolink]

93. "The art of listening is a lost art it seems..I am glad my first shrink listened,in turn by example

he taught me what real listening is all about."

And that's what makes you so special, panther... you LEARN by example, and by what you know has helped you.

I'm so discouraged that so many will take the listening skills of others, but it somehow never dawns on them to learn how to listen to others!

I really don't know what it takes.

Thanks for YOU, panther. You have so much to teach us!

:hug:

[Two Americas]

103. yet look at what happens

No one gets more savagely attacked here.

[Fireweed247]

19. wow!

"for every person without a meal tonight, or without a warm and safe place to sleep, there is a price that the rest of us pay by way of compensation, by way of a great balancing on a moral scale, a balancing of spiritual forces."

[dajoki]

20. So well put Two Americas...

Until we start looking to those who are suffering poverty and homelessness, and actually listening to them, we will be doomed to suffer the consequences of this affliction without any end in sight.

K&R

[1776Forever]

21. Article in our local central Ohio newspaper was on renters not being able to pay rent.

It went on the discuss help for families with minor children, which is excellent that they have it, but then went on to talk about single adults and those without minor children at home have little help if any. This is getting to be a HUGE issue. I have commented on this before and how some with small children are having to give the children up because they just cannot make it even with some help. Something needs to be done SOON!

This says it well:

Illinois advocates say successful stimulus package must include affordable housing
by Curtis Black of Community Media Workshop.

http://chicagotalks.org/wiki/illinois-advocates-say-successful-stimulus-package-must-include-affordable-housing

Jan. 14, 2009 - With the still-growing housing crisis at the core of the sharpest economic downturn since the Great Depression, advocates called for affordable housing to be a key component of stimulus and recovery plans.

"Housing is infrastructure," said Jack Markowski of the Chicago-based Community Investment Corporation, alluding to massive infrastructure investments planned in the forthcoming stimulus program. "It employs people. It provides the foundation to allow people to be part of the workforce." And with a growing need for energy conservation, "it's part of the green economy.

"We have proposals that are shovel-ready," he added, speaking at a gathering of over 200 community housing practitioners convened by the Chicago Rehab Network at Roosevelt University Monday.

Markowski called for tripling expenditures for the federal HOME Investment Partnership Program, which finances affordable housing production -- at $2 billion a year, its budget has not been increased since 1990, he said -- as well as for the $4 billion Community Development Block Grant Program.

U.S. Representative Jan Schakowsky (D-IL) described efforts by congressional leadership to include $23 billion for affordable housing development in the stimulus package, including $10 billion for the National Housing Trust Fund to build or save 100,000 low-income rental homes over two years, as well as funds for more low-income rental subsidies, upgrading public housing units to green standards, and helping cities redevelop foreclosed properties.

Together the proposed spending would assist 800,000 hard-hit households and create 200,000 new jobs, she said.

Schakowsky also discussed efforts to require any further spending under the TARP financial bailout program to include at least $40 billion for foreclosure mitigation.

Participants in two panels expressed high hopes for the incoming Obama administration. "We need a HUD that wants to do housing," said Andrew Geer of Heartland Housing.

Community Media Workshop president Thom Clark moderated the panel discussions.

Joy Aruguete of Bickerdike Redevelopment Corporation emphasized the connection between affordable housing and a green jobs program, and Ted Wysocki of the LEED Council stressed the need for immediate training for green jobs.

Housing consultant Teresa Prim discussed the economic recovery plan proposed by the National Low Income Housing Coalition.

Steven McCullough of Bethel New Life called for "holding financial institutions accountable and making sure capital is flowing to the people who really need it.... We're at the point where a large number of multifamily buildings are in trouble because of capital flow."

McCullough said the worker sit-in at Republic Windows last month could be replicated in multifamily rental buildings, with families refusing to move when buildings go into foreclosure.

"In Chicago we've seen overinvestment in high-end housing causing displacement, and in Washington we've seen that a top-down housing policy allows the bottom to fall out," said Pat Abrams of The Renaissance Collaborative. "But we who work at the community level have an alternative to the top-down approach.

"Affordable housing is a community anchor," Abrams said. "We must ensure that affordable housing, and especially rental housing, is the centerpiece of any economy recovery."

.........

Amen!

[maryf]

23. Wow do you get it!! Housing is key!! THANK YOU for this article 1776 forever

I love this action!!

"McCullough said the worker sit-in at Republic Windows last month could be replicated in multifamily rental buildings, with families refusing to move when buildings go into foreclosure."

How about people who've been homeless for a long time, moving into vacant houses and refusing to leave!! Or those in the foreclosed houses opening the doors, this is a great starting point...
:toast: :yourock:

[1776Forever]

25. Thanks MaryF you rock too! This is very close to my heart.

I have a 38 year-old son with progressive MS who never had any children or been married. When he first came down with this he didn't have any insurance so we went to the Florida Welfare for help. They gave him none because he was single. After that my husband and I kept him in a mobile home that I had bought before we were married and bought a house for 2 years and it took all our savings and we finally lost our home because of that and the lose of jobs in our area. We have been lucky enough to find someone that let us rent a place now and we are trying to make it back. It will be years before we get there, but there is only up from here.

I wish anyone without a home tonight knows that we are trying our best to get the word out and that they matter!

We care!

:grouphug:

[Two Americas]

126. Detroit

Demand a Federal Moratorium on Foreclosures NOW!

BAIL OUT THE PEOPLE - NOT THE BANKS


* Demand that the first item in any emergency federal legislation be protection for the victims of this crisis, the millions facing foreclosures and millions of others who are seeing their communities destroyed by the foreclosure epidemic brought on by the predatory lending and fraud of the financial industry.

* Demand the enactment of an immediate 2 year federal moratorium on all foreclosures. Such a moratorium is mandatory under federal law, which mandates the imposition of a moratorium on foreclosures whenever there is a declaration of a State of Emergency.

* During the moratorium, an oversight committee of community representatives, civil rights organizations, unions should review and adjust every mortgage in the country, so people’s house payments reflect the real values of their homes and their ability to pay. Such oversight cannot be left to the bankers or even to federal judges who are often disconnected from the reality facing working people today.

* Demand that rather than spending $1 trillion of taxpayer money to bail out Wall Street, that money be used to guarantee people’s needs, for decent jobs, health care, education, etc. It is the decline in wages, massive restructuring that has eliminated millions of decent paying jobs, and spiraling health costs that in large part has brought on this crisis, forcing people to take out unaffordable predatory loans just to survive.

The Moratorium Now! Coalition has been pressing for a statewide moratorium on foreclosures in Michigan and recently held a demonstration in Lansing, MI to support SB 1306, which would put such a moratorium into effect.

The Coalition is also demanding that new Detroit Mayor Kenneth Cockrel declare a State of Emergency in Detroit, the hardest hit city in the country by the foreclosure epidemic with an 18% home vacancy rate, and formerly apply to Governor Granholm to place a moratorium on foreclosures in Detroit pursuant to MCL 10.31

http://www.moratorium-mi.org/

[Two Americas]

127. more from Detroit

50,000 people homeless

80,000 homes abandoned

500,000 children in desperate poverty

Now people are losing access to water.

Detroit water infrastructure is crumbling; many lack access to water

By Eartha Jane Melzer 11/15/08 9:02 PM

The Michigan Welfare Rights Organization and the Sierra Club have teamed up this week over at Great Lakes Town Hall to examine the human and environmental cost of Detroit’s deteriorating water infrastructure. What they describe is not pretty.

In 2007, Maureen Taylor of MWRO reports, 45,000 Detroit households suffered water shutoffs. While some of these houses were already abandoned, many were homes to people who could not afford to pay their water bills. Children have been removed from their homes and place in foster care because their families could not afford to keep the water on, Taylor says, and the city now adds unpaid water bills to property tax bills, making it even harder for those struggling to avoid foreclosure. Taylor says her group is working on organizing a ballot proposal to create a water affordability plan that would protect low-income people, seniors and the disabled from water shut-offs.

On the macro scale, the Detroit sewer system processes up to a billion gallons of municipal and industrial waste water each day, Melissa Damaschke of the Sierra Club reports, and heavy rainfall or melting snow frequently overwhelm the system, causing sewage overflows that damage the Great Lakes. The high cost of upgrading and expanding the aging sewage system, she writes, has forced the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department to raise its water rates numerous times in recent years so that water — a basic human right — has become unaffordable to many residents.

http://michiganmessenger.com/8399/detroit-water-infrastructure-is-crumbling-many-lack-access-to-water

Economy in Turmoil

DETROIT - One measure of how tough times are in the Motor City: Some of the offenders in jail don't want to be released; some who do get out promptly re-offend to head back where there's heat, health care and three meals a day.

"For the first time, I'm seeing guys make a conscious decision they'll be better off in prison than in the community, homeless and hungry," said Joseph Williams of New Creations Community Outreach, which assists ex-offenders. "In prison they've got three hots and a cot, so they commit a crime to go back in and come out when times are better."

...

'It's a depression'

Among the worried is 81-year-old Warlena McDuell, a retired surgical technician who shares a home with her cancer-stricken daughter. On a recent weekday, she was among hundreds of Detroiters, most of them elderly, filling orange-plastic grocery carts at a food bank run by Focus: HOPE, a local nonprofit.

"It's a depression — not a recession," McDuell said, with the authority of someone who has lived through both. "It will get worse before it gets better."

Behind her in line, stocking up on canned apple juice and fruit cocktail, was Benjamin Smith, 77, who once held jobs with Uniroyal and Chrysler. Maneuvering his cart slowly, one hand gripping a cane, he was unable to muster much cheer when someone extended holiday good wishes.

...

For Mark Covington, as for many of his neighbors, there are two Detroits. One features swanky casinos, opulent hotels and two new sports stadiums, beckoning high rollers and deep-pocketed out-of-towners to a relatively vibrant downtown. Luxury condo developments are opening; an ambitious RiverWalk project is mostly completed.

Then there's the vast Detroit of decaying neighborhoods, with weedy, trash-strewn lots and vacant, burned-out houses. Some areas, even close to downtown, have a rural look because so many lots are now empty.

"It makes me want to leave," said Covington, 36. "But I figure, if I leave, who else is going to help? Who else is going to do it? People like me are what's going to turn Detroit around."

...

About 44,000 of the 67,000 homes that have gone into foreclosure since 2005 remain empty, and it costs about $10,000 to demolish each vacant house, according to Planning and Development Department director Doug Diggs.

Overall, the residential real estate market is catastrophic, with the Detroit Board of Realtors now pegging the average price of a home in the city at $18,513. Some owners can't find buyers at any price.

"If you no longer can sell your property, how can you move elsewhere?' said Robin Boyle a professor of urban planning at Wayne State University. "Some people just switch out the lights and leave — property values have gone so low, walking away is no longer such a difficult option."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28327490/

[Two Americas]

128. and more...

More of Detroit's aged go hungry as economy falters

Kimberly Hayes Taylor / The Detroit News

Ruby Allen can't remember the last time she went grocery shopping. Instead, she relies on whatever food her children drop off, and the five frozen Meals on Wheels dinners delivered to her home each Monday. "Without the meals, it would be hard for me to get three meals a day," the 80-year-old Detroiter said. "It would be breakfast and whatever I can get for lunch or dinner. Meals on Wheels helps me get through the week. I always tell people we were raised during the Great Depression. You learn to survive. You learn to make do with what you have."

...

But an increasing number of seniors don't have enough to make do. According to a recent national AARP survey, 59 percent of people 65 and older said rising costs and a tightening economy have made it more difficult for them to pay for essentials such as food, medicine and gas.

The United Way for Southeastern Michigan reports that 41,579 unique callers ages 50 and older telephoned its 211 helpline in 2008 for such basic needs, up from 16,702 callers in that age range in 2007. Detroit Meals on Wheels, which serves more than 1 million meals a year to people 60 and older, has a waiting list of nearly 700 hungry seniors, according to the Detroit Area Agency on Aging.

...

Sharron Newport and her husband, Willis, found themselves in similar need when devastation hit their lives.

One day in June, she worked at a dry cleaner, and Willis drove a tractor-trailer. The next, they were unemployed. Willis suffered from an inoperable brain tumor and out-of-control diabetes, and she had to quit her job to care for the 64-year-old, who within days couldn't walk or talk. His blood-sugar level became dangerously high because she couldn't properly prepare his meals. Sharron Newport was so stressed out she stopped eating.

"I cried all the time because I didn't know what to do," said Newport, 62. They try to survive on her husband's Social Security check. "He was a strong, healthy man who never sat down or watched TV. I totally depended on him. When he got sick, I fell apart. I would have committed suicide if I didn't get help."

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090105/METRO/901050383

[bobbolink]

24. CALL TO ACTION EVERYONE!!!

"advocates called for affordable housing to be a key component of stimulus and recovery plans"

This is SOOOO right on!!

NOW, how do we get people to actually LISTEN and ACT??!!

It MUST be acted on!!

"Affordable housing is a community anchor," Abrams said. "We must ensure that affordable housing, and especially rental housing, is the centerpiece of any economy recovery."

Let's JUST DO IT, folks!

NOW!

[1776Forever]

33. Here is one way - NLIHC National Low Income Housing Coalition

NLIHC National Low Income Housing Coalition Mission and Goals

https://www2398.ssldomain.com/nlihc/template/index.cfm

CALL TO ACTION SITE:

https://www2398.ssldomain.com/nlihc/template/page.cfm?id=27

NLIHC Mission

The National Low Income Housing Coalition is dedicated solely to achieving socially just public policy that assures people with the lowest incomes in the United States have affordable and decent homes.

The National Low Income Housing Coalition was established in 1974 by Cushing N. Dolbeare.

Goals

NLIHC 2008-2009 Policy Goals

Goal 1: To preserve existing federally assisted homes and housing resources.

* There will be no further loss of federally assisted affordable housing units or federal resources for affordable housing or access to housing by extremely low income people.

Goal 2: To expand the supply of low income housing.

* The federal government will increase its investment in housing in order to produce, rehabilitate, and/or subsidize at least 3,500,000 units of housing that is affordable and accessible to the lowest income households in the next ten years.

Goal 3: To establish housing stability as the primary purpose of federal low income housing policy.

* Housing stability in the neighborhood of one’s choice will be understood and accepted as the desired outcome of federal low income housing programs and as foundational to good health, employment, educational achievement, and child well-being for people with the lowest incomes.

Objectives

Objective 1: CHANGE PUBLIC OPINION

* To improve the understanding that the American people have of low income housing needs and solutions, how current federal policy impacts these needs, and how these needs directly affect them and their communities,

* To increase public support for progressive low income housing policy and programs.

Objective 2: INCREASE CAPACITY OF LOW INCOME HOUSING ADVOCATES

* To improve and expand the capacity of low income housing advocates, including state housing and homeless coalitions, direct service providers, residents, and other low income people to educate, to be more actively engaged in educating, and to be more skillful in holding federal, state and local policy makers accountable for solving the housing problems of low income people.

Objective 3: CAUSE FEDERAL POLICY MAKERS TO ACT

* To improve and expand actions by federal policy makers that solve the housing problems of low income people.

Objective 4: IMPROVE NLIHC INTERNAL OPERATIONS

* To continue to improve NLIHC’s infrastructure in support of our mission, goals, and objectives 1-3.

...........

I plan on joining this and having them send me email updates. You can sign up at the site:

https://www2398.ssldomain.com/nlihc/template/index.cfm

[maryf]

37. Thanks for making this its own post!!!

Caught it here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4899079&mesg_id=4899079

Folks need to listen to this!!

[Waiting For Everyman]

52. Building low-cost housing needs to ramp up FAST, even more than before...

So many seniors or near to that age just lost their retirement - in not only the market deflation but the real estate slide. We're going to need a lot more. Real soon.

That would put lots of builders back to work. But I'd suggest including standards for the disabled and energy-savings bigtime. I can't believe that even today, it isn't stardard for doorways and such to be wide enough for wheelchairs. Gradually elevated sidewalks, etc. Why should homes need to be converted for this? Why aren't they built that way in the first place?

[1776Forever]

68. Thousands waiting on Senior apartments in Florida - Ohio has a few really nice ones!

One is where my sister lives in Ohio and it has been around since 1970's. This is still in great shape and very well taken care of. I congratulate the management of the buildings for doing such an outstanding job! Both elderly and disabled can live there. They have disabled access, automatic doors, landscaping, laundry, meeting rooms, nurse visits, meals, house keepers, and much more!

[Two Americas]

71. "low cost housing"

I hear the term "low cost housing" as "slum" and "ghetto."

What does "low cost housing" even mean? I see these shoddy poorly built homes going for half a million, if they are in the "right" area and people think they can make money off of them, while solid well-built homes in the city are abandoned and slowly falling into ruins.

The entire paradigm needs to be overhauled. Put a label on housing - "low cost housing" - and people don't want it in their neighborhood, costs get cut, workmanship and maintenance go to Hell, no one is accountable, no one cares about it and on and on.

I don't think we need to focus on building housing at all, to speak of, and I don't think we need ghettos to herd poor people into.

We need to subsidize the people, not the builders, not the politicians, not the insurance companies, not the real estate industry, not the banking industry.

Put the builders to work. ala the New Deal, rehabbing and restoring our crumbling neighborhoods. Regulate finance in the housing industry the way that it is in agriculture so that people come first, so that the people are served, rather than allowing the banking industry to force all of us to serve them.

[JNelson6563]

22. Bravo my friend! Well said!

I've long appreciated your eloquence.

Julie

[Two Americas]

51. thank you Julie

Thanks for the kind words. Thanks, too, for your patience and tolerance over the years when we saw things somewhat differently. Much appreciated.

[Beaverhausen]

30. K&R

and marking to read later. I have to run right now.

[bobbolink]

31. Thank you!

Good to see you again! :hug:

[Joe Chi Minh]

32. Well said, Two Americas! Now it's time for the monied far-right wing types

to accept that their specious morality, ever a house built on sand, has been well and truly exposed by their own incontinent greed, and this depression that it has led to.

For the past 30 years in this country, the grotesque, outlandish notion that clever management of money stands at the very pinnacle of morality, has been peddled by the Great and the Good, and implicitly by their coroporate media, and now it has become clear just how hypocritical the advocates of the prioroties of the pagan idol, Mammon arei

One such luminary, a particularly benighted Prime Minister in the UK, once stated to the General Assembly (of elders) of the Church of Scotland that the point of the Parable of the Good Samaritan was that he had money to pay for the Samaritan to be nursed back to health - evidently forgetting all together Christ's parable of the Widow's Mite, which, of course, absolutely gives the lie to such a farcical notion. Scant wonder that she was assured by a Church leader, as she was leaving, that she would never have more prayers being said for her than by that assembled audience. No doubt, she will have taken that as a tribute to her. I wonder how she explains to herself Christ's statement that we either worship God and despise money, or despise God and worship money. Apparently, she was only invited as their guest speaker at her own request. There's a surprise.

A later Prime Minister who, like our current PM, admired her, said that he was reducing the benefit payment to single mothers, in order to help them! He wouldn't have dared make it clear what he meant, but it was clearly that "old chestnut" about financial self-reliance being the touch-stone of personal morality. It put me in mind of Christ's word's in Matthew 7:9, "Or what man is there of you, who, if his son shall ask him for a loaf, will give him a stone; or if he shall ask for a fish, will give him a serpent?" You wouldn't want to be one of his kids on Christmas morning, opening your Christmas presents, would you?

They still cling to their spurious version of Christian morality, even as the economic house of cards they've built is crashing down around their ears; but they won't be able to indefinitely. They will have to change their ways, and run business and government in a way that acknowledges the people's needs as their priority, as the priority of the country. Do they really think that God would be more impressed by their technological advances than if they showed a genuine concern for the well-being of all the people. Not starting at the top, and assuring us that the wealth would drip down, but building from the ground up, i.e. on the firm foundations of a recognition of our common humanity: people before profits. Great work by you, too Bobbolink! But I'm afraid I'm a little too intemperate in my writing to do much of this kind of advocacy myself to useful effect. Shorter pieces, if not that sweeter!

[Two Americas]

50. ah, KCabotDullesMarxIII, thank you

I thought the moose looked familiar, I recognized the voice, but wondered who is Joe Chi Minh?

Great post. I susually avoid any religious references in posts here, because debates about religion can quickly overwhelm the topic at hand. On another thread today, people are objecting to someone even using the word "spiritual" in their post.

But yes, I think you are right - Christianity needs to be turned upside down and inside out in order to make a case that it supports free market libertarianism. This debate is not new, and as I was working on this essay one of the things I read was the Book of Job. The elders are telling him that he is suffering because he has fallen from God's favor, and Job rejoins that any fool can see that the wicked are prospering and trampling on the poor with impunity. The elders are arguing that since God favors the righteous, therefore the wealthy and powerful must be righteous. God, by the way, sides with Job for those not familiar with this.

The view that those with wealthy and power are blessed, and must therefore be presumed to be righteous, is not held only by nominal Christians. Most non-religious people agree, although they will call it "logic" and "reason" when they defend the powerful and wealthy and attack the have-nots. They won't say that the poor have sinned, they will say that "they made the wrong choices." They won't say that the successful are more righteous morally, they will say that they are smarter, But of course on a belief system that sees intelligence, reason, and rationality as better, as more valuable, calling the wealthy and powerful smarter is in effect calling them morally superior. They won't say that the wealthy and powerful are favored by God, no, they will say that they have been favored by the "free market." But what is this "free market" they speak of, if not a modern god to be worshiped and seen as omnipresent and omnipotent? Does this "free market" really exist anywhere other than in people's fervent imaginations? They won't say that God is punishing the poor, no, they will say that "reality" is punishing them. But their notion of reality is as fanciful and imaginary as any religious person;s belief in God is.

[Joe Chi Minh]

114. You make some very insightful points, if I may say so, Two Americas.

I sometimes think that from being reviled by Christ as a particularly pernicious vice, Ambition has become virtually the sovereign Christian virtue.

And of course, we call the worldly-wise "intelligent", when it is the less worldly, more spiritual, poorer folk whom Christ, and indeed the whole tenour of Scripture, commend for their more spiritual kind of intelligence, based as it is on the true priorities for moral human beings. You often hear it said that a person was so intelligent for such a tragedy to have befallen him/her, as if worldly intelligence somehow made a person more worthy, more valuable! But then, they have a vested interest in maintaining that fond little conceit.

Incidentally, you can see in the Old Testament, too, that in fact the prophets and other authors often refer to the poor man as the true Israel, the virtuous man; and conversely, the rich man, as the wicked and violent man. It seems to be a recurrent theme. No wonder the Irish and the Jews have played such prominent roles in Socialism and the trade-union movement. Both have been under the iron heel, one way or another.

Of course, Scripture can no more avoid generalisations to inform us about the nature of the world and our role in it, than we can. But teach us, it does, obviously without fear or favour - which is unique to the spiritual realm. The rich often have to go along to get along. Generally, more than we do.

PS: I wish I'd changed my u/n to "Joe Chi Minh (the plasterer)". Too late now.

[bobbolink]

118. "They won't say that the poor have sinned, they will say that "they made the wrong choices."

NAIL.

HEAD.

BAM!

[undergroundpanther]

57. The Prosperity Jesus

Is what they worship,It looks like jesus on the surface but he has a robe made of 100 dollar bills and he poops gold doubloons.
jesus-like form,taken on by Mammon is what it is.

I myself are Gnostic/Pagan/hermetic.So I don't see christianity the same way as you do. I have no desire to convert to christianity and please don't waste time praying for me either..That out of the way,

I DO agree with you about evil,I call it Archon.Evil is all over this world,like maggots on a corpse. Evil minded people infest places of power like fleas on a stray dog and the disease of corruption like cancer is eating us alive,that is what runs the economy.
But the followers of Prosperity Jesus do not want to see what they really are bowing to..
I do share your opinions about the nature of mammon/prosperity jesus crap....I think Christians better cast out that prosperity jesus before he ruins the churches further than they've ruined themselves already, if you get my drift.
A song you might like,It is about greed..
The Band, maybe not for you,Anyway enjoy!

Nine inch Nails..Head Like A Hole

God money I'll do anything for you.
God money just tell me what you want me to.
God money nail me up against the wall.
God money don't want everything he wants it all.

no you can't take it
no you can't take it
no you can't take that away from me
no you can't take it
no you can't take it
no you can't take that away from me

head like a hole.
black as your soul.
I'd rather die than give you control.
head like a hole.
black as your soul.
I'd rather die than give you control.

bow down before the one you serve.
you're going to get what you deserve.
bow down before the one you serve.
you're going to get what you deserve.

God money's not looking for the cure.
God money's not concerned with the sick amongst the pure.
God money let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised.
God money's not one to choose

you know who you are.

[Joe Chi Minh]

112. Thank you for that Underground Panther. You seem a bit confused about Jesus.

But he did say that we can blaspheme against him, but not against the Holy Spirit. That is, Truth.

I get the feeling that, like so many of us, at some time or other in our lives, you've never really been turned off Jesus. Just a lot of his followers. But I expect you'll come to realise one day that none of us are any great shakes, when it comes down to it. But, among some good folk, there are some really evil types in high places who wreak havoc with our lives, for sure.

[Fireweed247]

140. I love that song!

:hi:

[tosh]

35. K&R for a powerful post.

Thank you, Two Americas, for this addition to the series.

[JeffR]

36. A great essay! If we don't actively listen, then we'll never understand.

And if we don't understand, we can't be part of a constructive effort to end this travesty.

[Waiting For Everyman]

38. If the poor were listened to, how to fix the economy would become clear.

The poor know what is holding them down. They know the systemic roadblocks which need undoing. You're right, Two Americas, that this is not about personal deficiency at all, but about the fact that this system drives people into poverty in the first place, and then kicks them in the face while they're trying to recover. That is SOOO NOT what this country is about. We have created a system that prevents and destroys recovery.

The major hardships in life, which have long been recognized by psychologists... job loss, illness, death, divorce... any one of these things results in a person being driven into poverty by our CREDIT AND BANKING SYSTEM. And it's close to impossible to ever get out of it, no matter what a person does or even if their life improves afterward. It was deliberately created to be so. This is an example of the things people know who are EXPERIENCING them. That's a darn good reason to listen to them. They know how the poor are created. They know how they got there, and what's holding them there.

And now, since the nation as a whole did not listen or care... the poverty machine is working its way up the ladder rapidly. Is this an accident? Did this "just happen"? Go through it for a while, and you'll find out. You'll see how it's done. And then you'll know. And then you'll also find that because you know and are in it... you aren't listened to anymore! Nifty, huh? Whose interest is this serving?

Anyone experiencing one of life's major hardships - legitimate, documentable hardship - does not get any consideration of that, let alone understanding or compassion or support. Instead, they get financial hardship on top of it. They get gouged into extinction by the banks at the same time that they're already coping with a personal crisis. Is that fair? or right? or intelligent? No. But it sure is profitable.

THAT, the intentional predatory abuse of people when they are already vulnerable, is what has created the extreme wealth in this country since Reagan. That is what we "produce". It's shameful. And it grew into this monster because nobody listened - to those who were being destroyed by this for DECADES. This "crisis" is new. But what's happening is not. It only got bigger, and faster. Until people noticed. It reached a "tipping point" where it became big enough and ruined lives in big enough numbers that it can no longer be ignored. But nothing new is happening. The poor for the last three decades were the "canaries in the mine shaft" who people turned their heads away from. People saw. And they turned away. "It can't happen to me". Well surprise, surprise, surprise - as Gomer Pyle used to say.

This poverty machine is run by people who are so damn greedy that they didn't even limit themselves at the point of killing the system which is enriching them. That's extraordinary greed, psychopathic greed.

As one of the poor myself, I was thinking about this today. Here's an observation "from the ground"... This system ruins people who try to assist relatives or friends in need. Caretakers are destroyed, merely for standing by family members who are going through any kind of illness or problem, or giving of their own limited resources - any sacrifices for them makes us more vulnerable too. The more we give, the more vulnerable we are. The "right choice" according to this society's logic is to abandon them, to think only of ourselves. Because remember as I said above, anyone who hits any of those major "bumps in the road" is driven into poverty. If we care, or assist them with our own limited resources, we almost always go there too.

Even when a crisis ends, there is no way to recover. All of the ways out have been systematically closed off by the banks and their lawyers. This is what needs fixing, and the specifics of it are what the non-poor don't know. The poor are refused bank accounts. The poor are denied jobs because of credit reports, and denied apartments, or mortgages or refinances or car loans. When they do get these things, they are charged DOUBLE rates. Isn't that a great way to encourage recovery? Think about it. How possible is that going to be? Recovery is a comforting fiction we believe in, but it isn't possible anymore - it has been MADE impossible. Deliberately. And what gets me is - nobody sees this. Nobody sees anything wrong with it - not even YET.

Credit reports are literally killing us, AND our economy. So are all of our financial practices in general - all of it has been corrupted and subverted in recent years to blatantly "feed on" the bottom. Add to that, the severe wage underpayment at the bottom, and the lack of affordable housing, and you can begin to see why nobody gets out of poverty once in it. The poor pay more for EVERYTHING - a lot more. You can't "work your way" out of it. If you start to, the legal techniques of persecuting the poor will kick the legs of the stool out from under you before you can get anywhere. It's too easy to lose what we have today - be it a job, a home, or whatever, and it's way too easy to take it away from the poor - one of the multitudes of legal actions they're particularly vulnerable to will send them back down the sliding board.

One hardship deserves another. That's our attitude in this country. Have a hardship? Have a financial hardship on top of it! And even if you CAN, somehow, cope with it, one miserable dead end day after day... are you applauded for this? NOPE. You're called a "deadbeat loser" for surviving it. Nice! That's America? That's the land of opportunity? That's the place where the poor can improve their lives? NO, not anymore. That's over. We have THIS now instead. Isn't it great? Aren't we proud of it? :puke:

We DAMAGE those who cope with problems, who take responsibility and try to restore a situation. Those are the ones we target to harm the MOST!

And all the while... those who have never had a ripple in their lives tell us why "the system" isn't working for us. Those are the truly clueless. Ignorance is bliss.

Until they hit a bump in the road.

Well that's what has happened to millions of people now - they hit a bump in the road. But those who have been struggling with this the longest are being trampled in the stampede now. The "newly poor" are drowning out the "old poor". The old poor are really tired by now, they're exhausted, they need RELIEF from this machine NOW.

And as you said Two Americas, this will benefit all of us. We have to start from the bottom, and "triage" this. Solving the problems of those poorer than us, will work its way UP, and benefit us.

I think of it as a 3-story house, with the poorest 1/3 of our country as the first story and so on. We used to have a fairly solid house. For the last 30+ years, the first floor was eroded and chipped away. Now, there are only a few shaky beams holding it up, and parts of the second floor are starting to cave in.

That's where we are. I think the smart move is to immediately shore up the first floor. Put some emergency supports in there, and start putting back what we took away. If we don't, the second floor or the middle class, is going to collapse too, and suddenly find itself on ground level, buried under the remaining debris of the third floor. And when it does, there will be no safety net for them either... because we didn't put in place NOW. FIRST.

[Two Americas]

45. brilliant

That is truly brilliant.

The problem is not merely that a few have fallen by the wayside. It is a powerful downward vortex, and it is pulling on all of us, and every day it gets harder for all of is to resists the pull. One slip, and down you go, and the farther down you go the harder it is to get back out. We are all slipping closer and closer every day to the point of no return, and being sucked down into a current that no one can swim against.

The denial of this - which requires people to shut their ears tighter and tighter, which in and of itself robs us of much of the joy in life o making it difficult to pull together for mutual defense and support, and that makes each of us increasingly more vulnerable.

Millions know this. Millions are saying not merely that they are in trouble, but that the game is rigged, as you say, and that we are all at grave risk. But you do not hear these voices in the media. I listen in vain to the radio, and the economic crisis is nonstop news, to hear even a whisper or a hint of what the people are now screaming.

[Waiting For Everyman]

49. "Vortex" is a good word for it, it's like a black hole we're on the edge of.

We'd better "reverse engines" with everything we've got, or we're going in.

This vortex creates nothingness. We're actually talking about demolishing foreclosed homes now! Jimminy Crickets, imagine this! We're causing more and more homelessness while destroying the homes that already exist. And for what? What are we getting out of allowing this?

It literally is a vortex.

I'm shocked too, that the real problem is not even heard on the media yet. If we don't stop the poverty machine first, no amount of job creation is going to help. We have to stop the damage.

We need a total moratorium on foreclosures, bankruptcies, evictions, liens, and wage and bank account garnishments. The whole credit landscape needs to be reconstructed the right way. Up until now, the primary thought behind every change made to the law was, "what's good for debt investors?" What we need to ask ourselves now is "what's good for an individual's recovery?" and do THAT.

[Two Americas]

58. this has been done, and can be done, it must be done

I work with farmers, and I was at a big agricultural show a month ago or so and stopped and talked for a while with the Farm Credit people. We talked about the "credit crisis" and financial meltdown. They are completely immune to this and unaffected. Why? How can that be? Because back in the 30's legislation was enacted to protect farmers from the ravages and predations of the banks and the financial industry, and we still benefit from that today. Were that not true, we could well be facing mass famine in this crisis. What was the rationale behind that legislation, that the "free marketers" of the day violently opposed? Simply this: people need to eat, and we have a shared responsibility as a civilized society, an obligation to see that people are fed. The trade off - people going hungry for the sake of profits by the financial industry - was rejected, and feeding people was made the higher priority. Crisis, chaos and panic everywhere else, but business as usual in the farm credit world. If anything, there is a shortage of applicants, a shortage of people who want to farm. Lots of people want to "invest," to turn a quick killing, to exploit and develop. But farm credit is not permitted to "play" in those "markets" and place our precious arable land at risk for the sake of profiteering by the few at the expense of the many.

People need housing. That is more important than profits for the banking industry. Defenders of the banking industry will try to tell us that the two interests are one and the same - that helping the banking industry helps people get housing, and that should we reign in the banks at all, that if we do not give them everything they ask for, that this will lead to less housing and make the problem worse. Such cynical and malicious blackmail that is. The same argument was used against the efforts to protect farmers from the bankers - were we to believe that without banks no one would be farming? Are we now to believe that without banks no one would have housing?

People must come first, and as you say we must start at the bottom and prosperity will percolate up, as has always been the case and as all decent people always understood until recently.

[undergroundpanther]

70. one thing NOBODY

dares say.. DEBT RENUNCIATION!!


Many advocates in the international Jubilee Debt Campaign contend that poor countries should proactively renounce unjust debts rather than wait for overdue "forgiveness." That lender agencies continue to make debtors adopt neoliberal policies as a pre-condition for debt forgiveness lends considerable weight to the activists' argument.

The stance in favor of renunciation is doubly valid in cases of "odious" debt, and addressing these cases represents the third critical task ahead. Wealthy nations are still pushing for payments from countries whose bills were run up by dictators that have since been deposed. Money lent to military governments was often used to line the pockets of corrupt officials or, worse yet, to purchase American and European-made arms, which were then deployed to repress democratic movements.

However, Washington has not gone far enough to relive other countries of their "odious" debt. For instance it has yet to push for the elimination of debts accrued by tyrants like Pinochet in Chile and Suharto in Indonesia, whom the United States supported when they were in power.


This double standard has tragic implications. Evidence shows that debt cancellation can be a most effective form of humanitarian assistance, allowing developing countries to draw on their own resources to provide critical social services. The Jubilee USA Network has highlighted the Zambian government's announcement, just before the G8 deal was finalized, that it would "use debt relief proceeds to provide anti-retroviral drugs to 100,000 HIV/AIDS patients." The bottom line, Jubilee advocates note, is that debt cancellation can save lives.

"In a situation where literally thousands of children die from preventable diseases every day, it's our duty to act," said British Prime Minister Tony Blair in advance of last year's G8 summit. That sentiment is as true now as it was when the cameras were rolling. And if leaders like Bush and Blair are not willing to honor it, solutions like debt renunciation present the only moral alternatives for the poor..

http://www.globalenvision.org/library/3/1016



Third World Debt Renunciation

To suggest that countries should renounce their debt may sound too radical at first, but not once you understand the nature of international debt. With the guise of helping to develop a country's resources, the world bank or various governments loan money to a third world government. Lenders usually don't want just to make interest, but also to develop something that will benefit them, like oil or lumber resources they need. Also, it is commonly expected that companies from the lending countries will get large contracts for various development projects.

Of course, the corrupt government that receives the loan has it's own ideas about what to do with the money. Altogether, many corrupt officials, lending institutions, governments and companies make money, while little real benefit trickles down to the people of the borrowing country. The scoundrels are long gone when the next government has to deal with the growing debt.

Then the lending countries, international monetary fund or world bank step in to renegotiate the debt. They'll even loan more money to alleviate a "crisis." The new deal comes with rules, of course. The borrowing country may have to tax the people more heavily, or encourage "cash" crops that can be sold to pay the debt, instead of food crops to feed the people.


A new solution: When a new government comes to power in any of these debt-ridden third world countries, they should renounce all foreign debt, and stop making payments at once. Neither they nor the people who actually are taxed to pay it have any obligation to do so. This should be announced as a moral decision to stop forcing people to pay fr debt they did not incur. Taking the moral high ground will reshape the whole debate.

Many will argue that any country which does this won't be able to borrow again for a long time. Since debt has been more of a problem, and not the solution to their economic woes, this is a great benefit, isn't it? Let's make sure no one will lend to future corrupt governments and leave the people burdened with debt!
http://searchwarp.com/swa43587.htm

Our Banking system and government is corrupt.Predatory lending is usury,Maybe it's time for some debt Renuciation in the USA??

[undergroundpanther]

53. And..

living below the poverty line,you learn to budget what you got way better than Washington does with the insane amounts of money they get..

Who in the hell just doesen't account for or "loses" millions of bucks?

http://www.caltax.org/waste/waste_local_government.html

How is THAT being responsible? How responsible is it for banks to be approaching Congress with dire threats of doom , pretending immanent poverty with their billionaire pockets hanging out of their expensive silk pants that I bet cost more than 5 times the money I get from disability to live on for a MONTH??!!
Get the rich off WEALTHFARE
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Pentagon_military/RichOffWelfare_EII.html

And why we are supposed to believe these banks and Wall street firms are honest? As they go shamelessly taking of money from taxpayers,and DEMANDING no strings attached,and THAN blowing it on executive perks and spa trips,OR knowing it would piss people off,they flat out refuse to disclose how that money was used lest the little people grab their torches and pitchforks and go to New York to pay wall st.a visit.
:nuke:

http://www.aim.org/aim-report/aim-report-the-department-of-embezzlement/

We end up sacrificed,going without AGAIN because of these greedy pigs..The money was supposed to be used to buy up that economic mess they made out of this economy,but nooo!

Hmm..does that sound like good money managing to you? WTF??!!

Yet if some lilliputian citizen gets injured on the job or gets sick enough to be disabled for that measly 600 buck check you'd be ASTOUNDED the requirements,proof and red tape hoops,heartaches stress and frustration you go through to get disability.

We can't afford to support the poor and disabled because Oh dear,look,the billionaires are suffering so much from their own stupidity and greed.We must help them(insert crocodile tears here)
:nopity:

Did after the first handout did those pigs again squeal,hat in hand,in congress pretending their best Oliver Twist,Please sir can I have some more?? Please bailout, the bailout!!
http://crooksandliars.com/tags/auto-industry-bailout

And the rich and gullible and shameless Senators pitied the shameless pigs again ,crying I can't go on living another day without another vacation at a luxury resort!!

Nooo..The executives pulled the FEAR card, oooga booga'd out their pampered butts, doomed and gloomed,threatened and lied!
And bush being the silver spoon bred sociopath he was,he helped his incompetent rich buddies to a big fat roll of free cash again, robbing the national treasury.A bailout of a bailout of a bailout!!
:wtf:

Pssst..and that way Bush could be sure Obama would be less able to do good things for the little people,and change things, like start up a universal heath care plan when he became president.
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/09/21/bush-legacy-taxpayer-funds/

All I can say is For God's sake don't let these wall street fools ANYWHERE NEAR the economy anymore!!
http://whereisthemoney.org/
The rich created this disaster, on PURPOSE.
http://www.democracynow.org/2004/11/9/confessions_of_an_economic_hit_man

http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine

The Uber wealthy never had to learn to budget anything really, because they have always had everything. They got all they ever wanted and effortlessly. Life for them is privileged,luxury had often at someone else's expense, one way or another.They got doctor bills twipped because THEY had VIP status,while others can't hardly afford to go to a doctor or take off work to go to a doctor!!

These upper crusties have plenty of other people out there covering their satin underwear encased ass,lying for them,and paying their way,so they never feel the consequences of their own greed.

Truth is My CATS can budget better than Wall Street executives can..!!

Wall Street, You're FIRED!!!

Oh Sekhmet!!

We need the poor people in power. NOW.

The poor will make sure fucking budget will be BALANCED believe me,and it will be better managed than any rich people ever could do it. Poverty is harsh and if you fail to budget being poor you will find you might go two weeks or more without food ,and drowning in debts, depending on how foolish you are.

[bobbolink]

88. You've written a wonderful essay! This could stand on it's own.

Sometimes I feel so alone, and it helps me to know that there are other poor folk who see the same things, and can help me to clarify my thought!

:hug:

[maryf]

39. Hearty kick for a post with a lot of heart!!

:kick:

[Wetzelbill]

41. k and r

[Naturyl]

42. Thank you for your excellent advocacy.

You are helping to educate people in a very real sense. It is a sad fact that even on DU, right-wing attitudes have seeped in and skewed many people's view of poverty in the ways you skillfully expose. Significant progress will not be made without paving the way through essays like this one. People on the left need to recognize, understand, and reject right-wing indoctrination in all its forms. The idea that poor people are in some sense defective and in need of "rehabilitation" is one of the biggest obstacles we face.

[leftstreet]

48. K&R

There are more 'we's than 'thems' here, and I hope they're listening to you.

:thumbsup:

[Tindalos]

54. "all human beings have a right to housing, heat, clothing, and food, without qualifications..."

A very well written essay Two Americas. I agree with you completely. Do you mind if I add health care to the list? As a Canadian, I consider health be a right, not a privilege. Everyone should have access to healthy food, medicine, and medical treatment, not just the rich. People shouldn't have to choose between basic necessities and health care. Health = Life. The stress of being sick is bad enough, without having to fight the system as well. Stress alone can make one sick. Not having access to adequate food, shelter, and other necessities only makes things worse. All of these stresses combine to beat people down even more.

[Two Americas]

59. thank you for that reminder

I guess that I so despair now of ever seeing universal health care here, that I failed to even mention it.

[Tindalos]

61. It'll happen

We just have to make them listen.

[wellstone dem]

55. Listening makes a difference--one little story

It was Martin Luther King Day. A day off. I had to work, but no one else was there. But then there was the community meeting. The announcement included a statement "what if you had the chance to talk with homeless people, people who volunteer at food shelves, a legal aid lawyer, ..." Well, that was that, someone from our office had to go and the only volunteer would have had to bring a 2 year old, so I told her to stay home, that I needed to honor MLK. (Usually I stay home and feel guilty.)

So I went, I hate soup at a table filled with men who lived in transitional housing. Usually, I'm across the desk from the poor. But here I was at a table, eating great soup and a great slice of bread. They told me about the transitional housing and the programs and their appreciation for the help and the wish to have their own place. We then were told to create new groups around particular issues such as "homelessness" "affordable housing" "how we spend our time" "social security" etc.

I wanted to to go home, but after there were way to many people ended up back at my original table, with most of the original men and a few others. The talk about affordable housing ended up being a discussion about how hard it is for people with some past housing problems, with a felony, or bad credit to find housing. Those of us with homes listened. Then someone said, "But what can we do?" And another person said, "There should be a law..." And pretty soon we ended up with 3 pretty good ideas.

#1. We should have a three strikes policy that gives landlords who will rent to people with a less than perfect rental history, a tax break...but also requires the tenant to work to clean up past problems (follow probation, pay back rent--even a little.)

#2. Have a time limit on how far back a LL can look in deciding not to rent to someone. (So no evictions after two or three years should count as a clean record.)

#3. More folks who can advocate on behalf of the poor. (And that wasn't even my idea.)

And this all came from listening to the poor. I know some legislators, and some lobbyists for the poor, and they are getting letters from me.

[Waiting For Everyman]

81. Thanks for sharing that story, wellstone dem!

What a meaningful MLK Day that was! I'd like to see a three year limit on all the information in credit reports. People shouldn't be PAYING for past problems for the rest of their lives. Credit reports need a lot of limiting. We shouldn't have to jump through hoops correcting wrong information on them, and we should have access to our information every day for free.

Medical bills shouldn't be allowed on there either. Everybody knows they are unpayble. Why should that then, make a person's home or car cost twice as much too? It's indefensible.

The main permanent change we need though is interest rate caps on everything. Foreign debt too. All of it. No bank should be charging more than 2% over prime. More than that, feeds a speculation mentality anyway.

[mntleo2]

56. Dignified to the max, yet still low income ...

Some of the classiest people I know are people on the street.

This last Monday I was in Olympia lobbying for low income issues and I met the most amazing young man. An Iraqi vet, he lived in one of our Tent Cities. He was obviously battling some strong demons, from lack of health care or services for his PTSD to the very fact he could not hold down a job and had no money to pay any rent ~ except for a few nights in the month when he could pay for a motel room where he kept warm and actually got to sleep in comfort like a human being ...

But that was not why he was with me in Olympia.

This young man, who had enough problems of his own, had brought a hand written letter by a fellow Tent City resident who desperately needed a home. The letter writer was a 60 year old man with terminal cancer who had lost his job and home when he got sick and who was too sick to come to our rally or he would have been there ~ thus the letter. See, our so-called "progressive" governor wants to cut a program called "GAU" which is assistance to non-working adults without children, most who are disabled and unable to get SSI ~ or because the waiting for SSI is so long, 4-5 years right now. The older man would lose his income and medical and would literally die on the street in agony were it not for the sorry pittance that won't even pay for a room, that they call GAU.

This young Iraqi vet was concerned about the man and told our legislators this man deserved to have better quarters where he could die in peace and with a little comfort. He was appealing to our legislators and the governor to help his friend. As I looked in to his eyes, full of pain and memories that no young person his age should have, it hurt me down to my soul ~ and made me proud that we have such wonderful youth that he would care about someone else more than his own issues, which were pretty important issues to talk about as well.

The truth is in our state and many states around the country the poor are paying the most taxes, yet they are the ones whose services are being cut. The rich pay little and big corporations nothing ~ and this is true all over this nation. So now the states are whining because they have no money ~ BECAUSE HUGE CORPORATIONS, FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS AND THE RICH ARE DEADBEATS AND REFUSE TO PAY THEIR SHARE. Corporations and the rich use our infrastructures much more than the common citizen does yet feel entitled not to pay for their use and expect the lower and middle income people to pay it for them. They are a heavy burden on all of us while we foot their bills.

But nope, our legislators and governor would rather let an unselfish Iraqi vet live in a Tent City, who risked his life for those entitled feeloader's well manicured behinds, they would rather see him suffer PTSD without any services, who cared more for an old man who would die on the street, if the rich and our governor has her way.

Tell me ...who is more deserving of our support, these two men, or the rich who do don't want to pay taxes and do little in comaprison for anyone but themselves??? What is WRONG with this picture People?????

Cat In Seattle

[Two Americas]

63. remarkable story

Thanks for this Cat. It brings tears to my eyes, partly because I hear these stories, too, and because I know there are a million stories out there like this that are not being heard.

"What is wrong with this picture," indeed.

[maryf]

64. What is Wrong with the picture??

There are too few hearts, and as I wrote that and looked at the word heart, I realized the word ear is between the h and the t of heart. Its hard to hear without a heart, the ears and mind might take it in, but without a heart the soul can't hear. These "leaders" hearts are buried in fear of losing something not worth worrying about, material wealth and political power. Again and again we are saying, everyone deserves a place to live, food in their gut, and caretaking when ill/elderly. Its time we start demanding our rights, and speak out for those who can't, like the young vet did for the sick man...Thanks for sharing, Cat! :loveya: heres some hearts for you!!

[maryf]

80. Morning kick!! nt

[Tsiyu]

60. Big kick

This is part of the issue I'm writing about these days.

One of the biggest obstacles to ending poverty is convincing "good" people that they contribute to it.

"Good" people will bestow near sainthood on the poor in other nations yet ignore the poverty right at their front steps.

As long as they don't have to "touch" it, they can feel involved when they write that check, never realizing that, on the way to the post office, they gave an ugly look to someone not "dressed right with filthy kids in rags" and thus added to that person's misery.

But talk is just talk.

I could go on but I will leave it there.

Good writing here, Two Americas.

K&R

[TahitiNut]

62. This is a must read ... and a must DO.

:kick:

[Mira]

65. Thank you Two Americas - this is powerful and a lot to ponder.

"Let's start listening" and "Poverty is an issue for all of us" are two paragraphs to read over and over in order to branch out to the others.
Not til it socks us in the gut can we feel it.
In the last year I had personal exposure for a few months on a daily basis with rock bottom poor people in their home surroundings.
Eyes once opened to this will never close again to the way they were before
I kick and recommend this in honor of your work

[Starry Messenger]

66. kick.

[saracat]

67. K+ R Wise words, my friend!

And I think only when we as Harvey Milk said identify those in poverty as among the "us'es" and begin to listen, will we ever make any progress.

[Baby Snooks]

69. The Village

"Let's start with this, shall we? - all human beings have a right to housing, heat, clothing, and food, without qualifications or conditions."

We began as two. And then became four. And then became four hundred. And the village, and its tribe, became what we call society in the sense of the village as a group.

The tribe was self-sufficient and the village prospered because everyone was considered part of the village and contributed somehow.

And then other villages were formed and then the villages began to envy each other and the tribes began to engage in war in order to gain what the other tribes had in their villages. And greed became a virtue.

"I have, therefore I am." And what's mine is mine. Not yours. But if you're weak, what's yours is mine as well.

That is what is wrong with our society. We no longer are a village. We no longer share. We no longer care.

Our village is supposedly a "Christian" village and our tribe is supposedly a "Christian" tribe and yet there is nothing to be found in our tribe or our village that reflects the message of Christ.

We donate to various organizations that supposedly help keep the village a village. And yet there is no village when some of the tribe have nothing while others have so much - we no longer share. We no longer care. We can say we do. But as long as some have nothing while others have so much, we don't.

Some of us steal from others in order to give to various organizations that supposedly help keep the village a village.

Robin Hood may seem valiant but Robin Hood in the end is a thief. And while his charity may bring a smile to one, his theft always brings sadness to a hundred who he stole from.

We must see ourselves as one tribe with one village. Each providing something. And all of us providing for each other.

[I Have A Dream]

73. My user name is "I Have A Dream", and a very important part...

of my dream is to see poverty eliminated in the world. It can be done if we have the will to do it.

Yes we can!

[Tindalos]

148. That's an awesome username

and a wonderful dream. If enough of us work together, then I hope our dreams come true.

[The Doctor.]

74. It is not a 'society that has gone mad' so much as it is a corrupted philosophy.

Sure, a hair's breadth of difference, but all the difference when it comes to solutions.

Those who have taken so much from so many, the real culprits behind the culprits, truly believe they are doing humanity a service. They believe, like all those who expect from others what they expect from themselves, that if humanity as a whole attains prosperity, it will consume everything.

So, they prevent that.

[Two Americas]

75. not sure about that

I think the greed and lust and desire to dominate others comes first, and then a "philosophy" is made up as cover for that and to fool others. I don't think they imagine that they are doing humanity a service. They may think that there is not enough to go around, but their response to that is to grab for themselves, and the hell with the rest of humanity.

[Tsiyu]

85. "I deserve it; you don't"

One of the most stunning parts about being poor is listening to people with everything tell you that you should get rid of what litle you have "if you're so poor and all."

I have averaged around $6-7000 a year income for the past five years. How do I survive? I fortunately own my place and my vehicle, I grow as much of my food as I can and fortunately I live in a society rather seperate from the rest of America, where we're ALL poor.

Last week a friend brought a deer over and I held the light while he butchered it; other friends are always sending food, or just coming to visit. None of us judges anyone else and I think that makes it so much easier for me than for those in the city.

But when I go to the only "rich" part of town, among people who have multiple homes, big bank accounts and alphabets worth of degrees, I get, "Why don't you sell those horses, your guitars, why do you babysit for free for that poor couple, blah blah blah?"

They are mostly Christian, and I always want to ask "Why don't you do what your Bobble says and sell everything and give it to the poor?" I never do.

I keep those horses because they literally saved my life once, and that's more than many humans would do and I go hungry some weeks making sure they have hay and grain so it's NUNYA. I babysit free for the couple so she can go to college (she made straight A's last semester).

It's like some sort of sickness people have, to judge the poor as "different" from themselves and then they can justify not caring so much because "well she wouldn't do what we told her."

Pretty much all of the so-called "friends" I used to have on that side of town are no longer in my life. I don't need that shit.

Thank you, bobbolink and Two Americas for this enlightening, much-needed thread. None of us can 'fix" this by ourselves, but recognizing the attitudes that contribute to the problems is an important step.

[Two Americas]

130. people think they know

People think they know everything they need to know about poverty, they are impatient and bored with the discussion. They think they understand it, and get irritated or annoyed when people bring it up.

But we don't know anything. We have barely begun to discuss it. Here and there on this thread there are little hints, little chinks in the armor, little glimpses into vast areas of exploration and discussion that are being completely ignored and suppressed, yet have great promise.

For example - "Why don't you sell those horses, your guitars, why do you babysit for free for that poor couple..."

You either deserve to have being poor as an excuse, or you deserve horse and guitars. Is that the message their? If you have guitars and horse, you must not be poor? You are poor, so therefore you have no right to help others? Why? Those things are only reserved for the wealthy?

People will tolerate you being poor, and will allow you to climb out of it. What they will not tolerate is any challenges to the system that causes poverty, to the thinking that keeps it in place, even if the only challenge is from people merely refusing to play the role, refusing to be a stereotype, refusing to act the way a poor person should.

I hear this all the time - "she can barely feed her own family, what is she doing taking casseroles over to others?" This is a lecture, a scolding, a judgment - she should be blaming herself for her own situation, she should be motivated the "right way," doing the right things, climbing the ladder - and hey, if she doesn't have what it takes to get ahead, then that's the way it goes.

You see, you have to earn all of those things, and while people will say that things like hard work, motivation, and thinking positive are what it takes to "earn" the right to have any control over your own life, what they really mean by "earn" is conform - give up control over your life, as they have.

There is little if any hard work, motivation, discipline, positive thinking or any of the rest of that being rewarded. The opposite is true.

[Tsiyu]

132. Exactly

I tried the corporate way.

I like my soul too much.

I am a person who loves to work, to create. But it seems the more I gave to the Corporation, the more it kicked me in the teeth. I'm not stupid. After a while, you have to count the cost of working your ass off and still not getting anywhere.

There is something to be said for stepping back and having the time to observe this life, and the freedom to help other people.


Look at Cantor's wife benefiting from the bailout. We're supposed to keep these uber rich folk afloat, in their fancy cars and all their deluxe trappings. They are ravenous, and we feed them because we like knowing we have our royalty, our bejeweled kings and queens. Even if we can't pay this month's electric bill, we get to see them all dressed up in the society pages.

The disparity is appalling.

And as you say, this opens up a huge can of worms, but talking to young people during this last campaign, I realized how many share a fatalistic view of government and capitalism. They aren't anarchists in the sense of wanting chaos, but anarchists in the sense that they want to start back from square one.

They have zero faith in their elders' ability to solve the problems we have created. My encouragement is to start at square one with yourself. "Be the change you want to see" and all that.

I believe the old system was doomed to failure myself, but I think it's like building a new house next to the old one. We have to work around the system, as we do here, bartering, producing goods locally, learning to do without the sparkly plastic shit made in China just to say we bought some shit. People need to understand the cost of all the shit they think they have to have, from its toll on the environment to its toll on their own health. Impoverishing people anywhere on earth has a cost to us here as well. But people don't understand the cost or teach it to their kids as our landfills swell.

And putting some values back in government is key. By values I mean making sure the rules are fair for everyone, that everyone has access to health care. By values I mean the values of compassion, caring for the least of these. Predatory business has been subsidized as if it is too weak to stand on its own while truly weak humans have been completely abandoned. Who are we as a people if we are too poor to take care of the least of these? We're weak ourselves and have nothing to crow about anywhere else in the world.

[bobbolink]

137. "What they will not tolerate is any challenges to the system that causes poverty"

"When I feed the poor, I am called a Saint. When I ask WHY they have no food, I'm called a Communist."
Dom Helder Camara

[The Doctor.]

109. Basically correct. Ipso Facto.

Power is a funny thing. If it is not exercised, it is lost. If it is not exercised to gain more power, it is lost. They cycle must be sustained.

But, as in most civilizations, once the last scraps of power and prosperity are licked up from the people, the bloodbath ensues.

[illuminaughty]

76. Well, I'm on the freakin' genius thread tonight! And I've got

so many thoughts flowing but little cognitive cohesiveness. But, what a beautifully written piece, Two Americas, and I agree that you should add post #34 to it. As it gets more difficult for my mother to express herself, I see her self esteem eroding daily. And as you so eloquently stated, sometimes we just need to slow down and listen lest they slip away from us.

I'm sure many would agree that this was a surreal week in this country. If you got too caught up in the glitz and glamor of the Inauguration, it was easy to feel that you needed to be one of those big people, those somebodies. But, then when you saw that sea of people on the mall, that was overwhelming also. So many individuals with so many stories. And as the media began to list the who's who, I began to wonder how in the world do you decide the order of importance for a human being?

I always like to compare us to animals. Most birds, animals, relatively need the same things they needed 1000 years ago. (the ones we haven't killed off). You know, the basics. And they do it without destroying the planet.

But, us "evolvers", we just need more. We have little connection to the food we consume, our shelters are facades, and we have all this technology to communicate but few are really listening.
Even the most "important" of persons standing on the podium on Tuesday are dependent on the sea of people below to sustain their existence.

In one of your posts, I saw you quoting the Sermon on the Mount...the rational part of the Bible.
If we live by those words, it works. But, today, as we hover on the precipice of the abyss, humanity is looking more like a cluster fuck than the creation of God. Sorry, lol. How do we make people see each other as equal individuals worthy of basic rights? Well, me, I stay mostly clueless.
But, Two Americas, I think you've got it right for a great beginning. Listening. I heard ya!

The entire thread is a tear jerking piece of beauty.:cry: :applause:

[maryf]

124. "Even the most "important" of persons standing on the podium on Tuesday

are dependent on the sea of people below to sustain their existence." And we gotta keep reminding them and ourselves of this...and remind them that the people need to be listened to!! :hi:

[Solly Mack]

78. K&R

[Lyric]

79. Kicked and recommended.

:hug:

[varelse]

82. K&R for truth

It is impossible to listen to others when we are so obsessed with ourselves, when we can only see the issue in terms of what is going in for us internally.

This is, I feel, a very "American" failing. We're immersed in a culture, flooded with media and advertising, taught pretty much from birth that self-obsession is the "right" worldview when in fact it is very wrong and even unnatural (humans are social beings by nature, not solitary ones).

Well done and recommended. I hope someday to see a book published by this author :)

[asdjrocky]

83. Book marked.

Thanks TA, wonderful work. I'm going to take the day and go over it again.

Here's one thing I caught on the first read (and as always, feel free to point out the folly of my ways)-

Let's start with this, shall we? - all human beings have a right to housing, heat, clothing, and food, without qualifications or conditions.

I would also like to find out what this mole is on my leg with some dignity. How about some health care?

[unapatriciated]

84. my thoughts too...

while I enjoy health care today there was a time when I lost it and my son became disabled as a result of on again off again care.
Today as an adult, he is at the mercy of the state and what they deem necessary.

great post two americans...
May we all listen and provide dignity and a real solution to those that have had no voice for over 20 years.

[bobbolink]

90. It's from the UN declaration of rights.

We could add lots of things.. like clean air and clean water!

And, mostly, dignity!

[asdjrocky]

92. Thanks bobbo. I'm looking it over again now.

[bobbolink]

95. Here ya go... from another great essay--!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4754889

[asdjrocky]

98. Read that one.

And thanks for replying, so we can keep this kicked.

[bobbolink]

104. yup, just letting you know the stuff about the Human Rights was in there.

And includes health care.

:hi:

[Two Americas]

99. hopes dashed

You mention health care, and that forced me to think about why that hadn't occurred to me and I realized that without being aware of it I have already given up on that. I listened to the chatter from the politicians and activists over the last few months. It has been discussed plenty. I thought, OK, look people this is a "yes" or it is a "no." We fight for it or we don't. You see the desperate need, you see what we need to do, or you don't. Don't sweet talk me or dismiss me. I heard the double talk about insurance, who would and who wouldn't be left behind, what the penalties would be for this or that, and about this or that "plan" and which politician's book I should go read, or which politician's website I should visit. I heard the talk about "baby steps" and on and on. I heard that we should be worried about the jobs of the people in the insurance industry. I watched Michael Moore get attacked. At some point I said, don't play with me.

I have heard all of this before, for years. I am not playing that game anymore. In other words, we are being told to get to the back of the line and be quiet. That simply means that people, so many people are dead. They are already barely hanging on. They can't make it if they have to wait, and then wait some more, and then jump through hoops and beg and crawl, and then maybe some day get some sort of care. I am glad that some day younger people may have a better system. That is good. I would fight for that even if I didn't live to see it. But if we are going to consign millions to suffering and death, let's be honest about that. It would be better for everyone if we didn't get people's hopes up, if we at least all knew where we stood. It is cruel to taunt people about this. Let us get on with our lives, and live out what time we have left in dignity and so we die. There are worse things then dying, and one of them is to be played with, teased and taunted. Don't play with us you do-gooder hypocritical liberals and progressives. Don't add insult to injury.

"Universal health care insurance." What does that mean? Universal (mandatory) health care (public support for the health care industry) insurance (public support for the insurance industry.) Does mandatory auto insurance help you get to work? It "solves" the "problem" supposedly - if we are willing to accept that we ourselves are the problem that needs to be solved. Will people be arrested and punished for NOT having health care? Sound far-fetched? Just watch. "Oh we will make allowances for those who can't afford to pay into the system." Right. Haven't we been down that path about a thousand times now? You will get a "tax break" - "up to a thousand dollars per family to help them with health care costs." Who is kidding whom?

At least with the Republicans we know where we stand. We know that we are all on the same team. We can see the battle lines, we are free to speak out. Now we hear that it can't be done right away, and we are all being whiners and pouters. The people support universal health care - overwhelmingly, without qualifications. Now we hear that we must have bi-partisan support, we have to listen to the other side and compromise, we must face reality. It will take time, it may not be perfect, you need to be patient, we are moving toward it, you can't get everything you want immediately - this is what we hear. That is a "no." It is a clever "no," one that is hard to fight. At some point, those who are being "impatient" will be blamed for the lack of progress. Just watch.

We can't speak out strongly for universal health care, because that will cause a backlash, the right wingers will fire up their propaganda machine, then we will lose, and then Democrats will be thrown out of office. So, you see, speaking out for it implies criticism of and a lack of faith in the Democratic politicians, and that hurts them, and that then hurts us, so it is actually our fault.

[asdjrocky]

106. It's the reason I got involved in the primaries.

Speaking of close to home, here it is for me. I was a very small business owner for a long, long time. So small in fact, that I was more self employed than anything because at the most I had 2 or 3 part timers working for me. I bought my own health insurance for years at a very steep rate with very steep deductibles. When my wife, now ex-wife, got a job with insurance we of course joined up to save the money. It still cost quite a bit and we were constantly surprised to find out what was not covered, or who we could see or not see.

When we split about 5 years back my business was failing, entertainment is sometimes the first thing to go when it gets really bad, and I had a lot of corporate clients that had a lot of parties, and I couldn't afford to get my own insurance once that money dried up. So as a result, I've not been to a doctor in years and now my teeth are falling out of my head. Ain't being an American great?

Poor = toothless and ugly.

I'm glad I've had nothing major go wrong, and I'm just hoping the mole on my leg is just a mole. But this is what hurts- I've gotten through most of it, ya know? I'm 48 and I know no matter what I have a roof over my head, so I'm lucky there. I've got enough food to eat most of the time, which is more than a lot of people. I've got my little garden, and that keeps me busy and happy. I managed to get my daughter into a good state school and she'll graduate college and do better than I've done, and that's a happy thought every time I think it. But one more time- here is where it hurts- If you lose a tooth, too bad, if you have a mole you're not sure of, too bad, if you don't get the care you need for you and your family, too bad.

Someone once said we're better than this. I'm pretty sure we are better, I'm just not to sure sometimes about the people that run the fun house.

So maybe it's not worth remembering because it's something we'll never get. Maybe we are better off not having that carrot dangling in front of our faces. I can just wait to go to a doctor for a decade or so, once the Medicaid kicks in.

Good to see you again TA, and good essay.

[Two Americas]

111. we must break the conspiracy of silence

We are hanging on by a thread, buddy, and as you say there are millions in worse shape yet. The fear, the anxiety, the desperation is everywhere but everyone thinks they are alone, that it must be their own fault somehow. I will get in the back of the line, I can be the last one to be taken care of just so long as we do start taking care of the people, so long as we stop lying to ourselves and each other about that.

We got my aunt, elderly and handicapped, into a good home where she won't be alone, has health care and companionship and can live out her days in dignity, safety and security. That is good. I am glad for that and it comforts me every day when I think about it. One of her sons is going to be able to go to Mexico next month to get desperately needed dental care. That is good. I don't want him to suffer. But he is getting older, still working himself to death with no end in sight. And job security is a joke. Another son of hers worked 20 years in the auto industry. Then bang! one day, laid off. Very soon - very soon - the savings have disappeared, he and his wife are making decisions about feeding the kids or buying medicine. She can't afford her epilepsy medicine, has a minor seizure while driving and runs into a tree. Now the bills are pouring in, they can't make the mortgage, they are in foreclosure. The whole extended family pulls together, but we are all struggling and barely keeping our own heads above water - we can't really help. There was a time when I could really help a relative or a friend out with a few hundred and that was enough, that made a difference. But now none of us can afford to help each other, and we are all slipping down lower and lower.

They can mock and ridicule the Edwards campaign, they can make fun of those toothless "low information voters," they can arrogantly celebrate the glorious triumph of the beautiful people and wallow vicariously in the wonderfulness of it all, and pat themselves on the back for being in the winner's circle, they can tell us we are losers. But we know better.

You and I are a lot alike, and your story is my story. I keep thinking about Jack London's essay when you and I talk.

"I found there all sorts of men, many of whom had once been as good as myself, all wrenched and distorted and twisted out of shape by toil and hardship and accident, and cast adrift by their masters like so many old horses."

"And I confess a terror seized me. What when my strength failed? when I should be unable to work shoulder to shoulder with the strong men who were as yet babes unborn?"

"All my days I have worked hard, and according to the number of days I have worked, by just that much I am nearer the bottom of the pit."

We are sliding toward that pit, my friend. So are millions of others.

I was very young and callow, did not know much of anything, and though I had never even heard of a school called "Individualism," I sang the paean of the strong with all my heart.

This was because I was strong myself. By strong I mean that I had good health and hard muscles, both of which possessions are easily accounted for. I had lived my childhood on California ranches, my boyhood hustling newspapers on the streets of a healthy Western city, and my youth on the ozone-laden waters of San Francisco Bay and the Pacific Ocean. I loved life in the open, and I toiled in the open, at the hardest kinds of work. Learning no trade, but drifting along from job to job, I looked on the world and called it good, every bit of it. Let me repeat, this optimism was because I was healthy and strong, bothered with neither aches nor weaknesses, never turned down by the boss because I did not look fit, able always to get a job at shovelling coal, sailorizing, or manual labor of some sort.

And because of all this, exulting in my young life, able to hold my own at work or fight, I was a rampant individualist. It was very natural. I was a winner. Wherefore I called the game, as I saw it played, or thought I saw it played, a very proper game for MEN. To be a MAN was to write man in large capitals on my heart. To adventure like a man, and fight like a man, and do a man's work (even for a boy's pay)--these were things that reached right in and gripped hold of me as no other thing could. And I looked ahead into long vistas of a hazy and interminable future, into which, playing what I conceived to be MAN'S game, I should continue to travel with unfailing health, without accidents, and with muscles ever vigorous. As I say, this future was interminable. I could see myself only raging through life without end like one of Nietzsche's BLOND- BEASTS, lustfully roving and conquering by sheer superiority and strength.

As for the unfortunates, the sick, and ailing, and old, and maimed, I must confess I hardly thought of them at all, save that I vaguely felt that they, barring accidents, could be as good as I if they wanted to real hard, and could work just as well. Accidents? Well, they represented FATE, also spelled out in capitals, and there was no getting around FATE. Napoleon had had an accident at Waterloo, but that did not dampen my desire to be another and later Napoleon. Further, the optimism bred of a stomach which could digest scrap iron and a body which flourished on hardships did not permit me to consider accidents as even remotely related to my glorious personality.

I hope I have made it clear that I was proud to be one of Nature's strong-armed noblemen. The dignity of labor was to me the most impressive thing in the world. Without having read Carlyle, or Kipling, I formulated a gospel of work which put theirs in the shade. Work was everything. It was sanctification and salvation. The pride I took in a hard day's work well done would be inconceivable to you. It is almost inconceivable to me as I look back upon it. I was as faithful a wage slave as ever capitalist exploited. To shirk or malinger on the man who paid me my wages was a sin, first, against myself, and second, against him. I considered it a crime second only to treason and just about as bad.

In short, my joyous individualism was dominated by the orthodox bourgeois ethics. I read the bourgeois papers, listened to the bourgeois preachers, and shouted at the sonorous platitudes of the bourgeois politicians. And I doubt not, if other events had not changed my career, that I should have evolved into a professional strike-breaker, (one of President Eliot's American heroes), and had my head and my earning power irrevocably smashed by a club in the hands of some militant trades-unionist.

Just about this time, returning from a seven months' voyage before the mast, and just turned eighteen, I took it into my head to go tramping. On rods and blind baggages I fought my way from the open West where men bucked big and the job hunted the man, to the congested labor centres of the East, where men were small potatoes and hunted the job for all they were worth. And on this new BLOND- BEAST adventure I found myself looking upon life from a new and totally different angle. I had dropped down from the proletariat into what sociologists love to call the "submerged tenth," and I was startled to discover the way in which that submerged tenth was recruited.

I found there all sorts of men, many of whom had once been as good as myself and just as BLOND-BEAST; sailor-men, soldier-men, labor- men, all wrenched and distorted and twisted out of shape by toil and hardship and accident, and cast adrift by their masters like so many old horses. I battered on the drag and slammed back gates with them, or shivered with them in box cars and city parks, listening the while to life-histories which began under auspices as fair as mine, with digestions and bodies equal to and better than mine, and which ended there before my eyes in the shambles at the bottom of the Social Pit.

And as I listened my brain began to work. The woman of the streets and the man of the gutter drew very close to me. I saw the picture of the Social Pit as vividly as though it were a concrete thing, and at the bottom of the Pit I saw them, myself above them, not far, and hanging on to the slippery wall by main strength and sweat. And I confess a terror seized me. What when my strength failed? when I should be unable to work shoulder to shoulder with the strong men who were as yet babes unborn? And there and then I swore a great oath. It ran something like this: ALL MY DAYS I HAVE WORKED HARD WITH MY BODY, AND ACCORDING TO THE NUMBER OF DAYS I HAVE WORKED, BY JUST THAT MUCH AM I NEARER THE BOTTOM OF THE PIT. I SHALL CLIMB OUT OF THE PIT, BUT NOT BY THE MUSCLES OF MY BODY SHALL I CLIMB OUT. I SHALL DO NO MORE HARD WORK, AND MAY GOD STRIKE ME DEAD IF I DO ANOTHER DAY'S HARD WORK WITH MY BODY MORE THAN I ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO DO. And I have been busy ever since running away from hard work.

http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/2550/

[asdjrocky]

113. One I've read.

I found that after reading The Iron Heel for the first time when I was 20, just after the Regan era began. Had a lot to do with the way I've looked at things since. Thanks for posting the link. Jack London always spoke to me in a way I could easily understand and I never felt he was "trying to give me a hand up" or speaking down to me in any way.

In my writing, my fiction that no one reads, I've always tried to emulate his work ethic of 1000 words a day. I only wish I could string together a thousand words in the same magical way, but on most days I'm just happy to say, "999, and 1,000."

The first 4 paragraphs in your reply to me, are the best and most attainable writing I've ever read from you. I want to know more. That's the voice you use, that's the voice that really speaks to the simple and fierce people like me. Think on that.

As for us, our living lives, the real us, I just don't know. I don't know what line to stand in, or what door to force open and I'm damn tired of waiting around. Maybe I'm thinking this poor boy knows just enough about history to be dangerous. Maybe I'm remembering the lawlessness of the 30's across the west.

And maybe I'm thinking, TA, maybe I'm not the only one thinking.

[Two Americas]

120. you are on to something there

This will need to percolate for a while.

"Simple and fierce.."

[asdjrocky]

121. Yeah, I liked the way they sounded together too.

[bread_and_roses]

86. Excellent, excellent, excellent

The entire piece, but this especially, for me, sums it up:

Poverty is a social issue, not a personal issue. Politics is about social issues, changing conditions so that they are more humane, not about individual self-improvement strategies. We need to listen to individuals, those actually facing the challenge on behalf of all of us, and then seek political solutions, public programs that will change the conditions. Instead, we are tempted to deny people their reality, their story, and then offer recommendations for personal strategies they can - or should - take.

Poverty is not the result of there being something wrong with the poor that we need to fix or improve, it is the result of something wrong with the system, a system for which we are all responsible and from which we all suffer. Those who have fallen into poverty, or have been driven into it, know better than any of us what is wrong with the system.

[Kajsa]

89. Well done, TA!

Poverty is not only an issue, it is a stark reality
for thousands in our country everyday.

The numbers are growing now,
as more layoffs and foreclosures force
people out of their homes and into their
cars and the streets.

This cannot be ignored.

Thanks so much for bringing attention
to this.

:)

[acmavm]

94. I agee with all the good things everyone has said - squared!

The old saying 'it takes one to know one' is sadly apt when it comes to the experiences of the poor and the very poor. Those that know the feelings of insecurity, the deprivations, the embarrassment, and the feelings of resentment directed at them because of their social status are the one's best equipped (by virtue of that knowledge and experience) to teach society how best to deal with poverty. It's not just a matter of throwing money at a problem and hoping it will go away. It's more a matter of spending that money wisely where it will do the best good, go the farthest, and help the most people. It's one of the meanest stereotypes of poverty that all poor people are undereducated and ignorant. Or if not ignorant, than just not as smart as the 'rest of us'. And that is just plain wrong. If we would go into the communities where help is most needed and talk to people, let them know that finally our society has decided to really get serious, to do something about poverty in our country instead of just using it as a campaign issue every four years. (Whoa - deja vu! Just reminded myself of a Tina Turner song that put me somewhere else but I can't think of the name. Steel Claw maybe? Opps, I digress!)

We need to get down on our knees at the community level and allow these (us) people a voice in how our community assets are allocated. We need to quit focusing on the 'feel-good' crap like ball parks and arenas and maybe concentrate on the 'do-good' issues like our Food Banks and our shelters for homeless and those running away from abuse. We talk big and claim to be a Christian country (which we ARE NOT by the way) but we hardly practice what we preach. The claim we need to be able to meed is that we are a decent, caring, honest and fair country. And that includes lending a helping hand to those that need it. Without reminders. Notelethons to remind us of what we are supposed to do. Or charity drives. Or whatever.

YEP! It was steel Claw.

STEEL CLAW
------Tina Turner

(P. Brady)
Producer: Carter
Album: Private Dancer (84)

It's just a television wonderland
It's one more fairytale about a rich bitch
Lying by the swimming pool
Life is so cool
Easy living when you make the rules
Last friday was the first time
It only took about a half a minute
On the stairway
It was child's play
The odds turn out even when you give up believing in the

Cold law, steel claw
Try to get on board you find the lock is on the door
Well I say no way
Don't try to keep me out or there'll be hell to pay
I don't know who's right or who's wrong
It doesn't really matter when you're lying in the gutter
It's a see saw
A long battle with the cold law
Is what you get for messing with the steel claw

The politicians have forgotten this place
Except for a flying visit in a black Mercedes
On election time
They cross the line
And everybody runs to watch the pantomime
If they could see what's going on around here
So many people hanging onto the edge
Crying out for revolution
Retribution
The odds turn out even
When you give up believing in the

Cold law, steel claw
Try to get on board you find the lock is on the door
Well I say no way
Don't try to keep me out or there'll be hell to pay
I don't know who's right or who's wrong
It doesn't really matter when you're lying in the gutter
It's a see saw
A long battle with the cold law
Is what you get for messing with the steel claw

Sometimes I think I'm going crazy
Sometimes I do a line, makes me laugh
Makes me wanna take a joyride
On the high tide
Sometimes I'm contemplating suicide
Meanwhile Eddy is on the west coast
I know he's making out with some sweet senorita
Up in Frisco
You and I know
The odds turn out even
Whe you give up believing in the

Cold law, steel claw
Try to get on board you find the lock is on the door
Well I say no way
Don't try to keep me out or there'll be hell to pay
I don't know who's right or who's wrong
It doesn't really matter when you're lying in the gutter
It's a see saw
A long battle with the cold law
Is what you get for messing with the steel claw

[Greyhound]

97. Auto K&R.

[Chovexani]

100. K&R

Wow, what a powerful post--as usual, bro. There's a lot to chew on in that.

This made me think about something that happened recently. One night when I was coming home on the subway from a concert, I had the misfortune of having my iPhone die while a douchebag hipster couple sat next to me. Everything was fine until a guy with the UHO got on and started asking for money. The UHO is a well known group in NYC that is largely made up of homeless people, they hand out food and blankets to homeless and hungry people and are always panhandling on the train (they also have table set up). There's also a lot of controversy around if they're legit or not, because the homeless folks who work for them have to fork over $15 of the money they get to the front office and there's a lot of questions about where that money goes. I usually give them change 'cause it really makes no diff to me, but I understand why others don't. That's not what bothered me though. What bothered me was the conversation that followed, in which I learned that homeless people (oh, excuse me, "bums") can't be trusted, are all con artists that spend people's money on crack and booze and that they deserve to be on the street. The irony was these motherfuckers got off the train at a stop that does not exactly suggest they are swimming in dough (let's put it this way, I expected them to get off if not in Manhattan than at the designated hipster douche stops in Brooklyn on my line, but they got off about two before I did). Then again stepping on people "beneath" you to prop yourself up seems to be the American way.

How fucked up is it though, and totally telling about how sick our society is when homeless people are given the third degree and automatically distrusted when they ask for a dollar or even some change but no one thinks twice about giving billions of no-strings-attached dollars to the banks and institutions that put people on the streets? I bet those wannabe yuppie assholes sitting next to me had no problem with a lot more of their money going to that bullshit. And so the fuck what if a panhandler is going to spend that dollar you just gave hir on weed? Yes, enabling addictions is bad but at the same time who the fuck am I to judge how someone gets by, living on the streets of this town. And there will always be hustlers, whether they have a cup on the train or wear a three piece suit.

OTOH I didn't call them out on it, which is something I'm ashamed of; I was exhausted and a little bit drunk and didn't have any fight in me at all. Calling people out on this bullshit is important. It's especially important to be an anti-poverty ally because shit, unlike a lot of isms it could happen to each and every one of us. Even the most well off. All it takes is a string of bad luck...a health scare, an ill-timed layoff (as if any time is good for a pink slip, but you know what I mean).

[bobbolink]

102. "how sick our society is when homeless people are given the third degree and automatically

distrusted when they ask for a dollar or even some change but no one thinks twice about giving billions of no-strings-attached dollars to the banks and institutions that put people on the streets? "

You have pegged it.

Be aware though... you label these people "douche" (a term I really find distasteful... like if it has to do with a woman, then it's BAAAD), yet that very same SAME attitude exists right here at DU!

You've never seen the "distrust" when there is a question of helping someone here?

We need to first look at OURSELVES, before we insist on pointing "out there".... In many ways, we're no different.

No different at all.

Walk in the shoes of some of us here, and you'll see that "progressives" harbor the same attitudes.

The very same.

[Chovexani]

131. I left DU for a good while

When the subprime mortgage crisis started, and I was working in the credit card division of one of the few banks that didn't end up eventually getting a bailout. I knew it was only going to get worse. But all the judging and blaming people for falling on hard times was palpable from the start. And that was at *middle class* people, who are always held up as the gold standard in this country. This kind of shit has been happening to poor people for years but no one cared then. I know all about payday loans and the predatory hustling that goes on under wraps in the shadow economy but suddenly when it is hitting people in the 'burbs they wake up.

Even self-professed liberals will always take a corporation's side over the little guy that is getting fucked. It's a bully mentality. The pile ons on people without a voice, no matter what issue it is...LGBT issues, poverty issues, or whatever. A lot of people can't see past their own privilege on a lot of things and get mad when you even try to call them on it. It's not a bad thing to be called out on privilege, I recognize that even though I am in a lot of oppressed groups I still have privilege (even though I am "broke" I still have internet and food and all kinds of luxuries). That is something we all need to work on, and Two Americas is right that it can't be solved unless we stop and listen.

I spend less and less time here because it just gets worse and worse. I almost feel like my time would be better spent helping local groups get shit done rather than arguing with radical centrists on the internet.

(And I swear I'm trying to get "douche" out of my vocabulary but I'm a 27 year old gamer and it's hard. *sigh*)

[bobbolink]

144. "all the judging and blaming people for falling on hard times "

YEs, "progressives" are just as adept at this as conservatives.

And it's why many of us no longer are so strongly in "the fold".

Yet, when election time rolls around, they expect us to "fall in line", no questions asked.

THEN they have the temerity to talk about people "voting against their own best interests"!

Some folks need a HUGE mirror.....

Oh, and thanks for trying to examine your language... its much appreciated! :hi:

[Two Americas]

129. thanks

Thanks for that Chovexani. We need to keep hearing the stories. We can't stay silent about this.

"How fucked up is it though, and totally telling about how sick our society is when homeless people are given the third degree and automatically distrusted when they ask for a dollar or even some change but no one thinks twice about giving billions of no-strings-attached dollars to the banks and institutions that put people on the streets?"

That is the question we need to keep asking.

People do care, they are disturbed about what is happening. But they are afraid. The implications are too overwhelming. So they look for any quick out, any escape. They are quick to grab onto anything that will make it easier for them. They hear a story about Bill Gates giving to charity, or Google giving cell phones to the homeless, and they are relieved. They can think that maybe the wealthy and powerful are not going to destroy us all, maybe we are not all going to be cheated and impoverished, maybe we are not all being stalked by powerful predators. Then they hear stories about some poor person who was using that as a con, or some charitable organization that was cheating, and again they are relived. They can ignore the problem and not feel guilty.

We saw this in the arguments about the Warren invitation. People were quick to grab at the "angry gay" argument, because it relieved them of having to think about the issue. Since "the gays" could be blamed, on the slimmest pretext, they could slide over to the "other side" and take an easy way out, while spreading hatred and malice with impunity. If gay people can be portrayed as unworthy of support - and that is exactly what people were relentlessly and aggressively trying to do - then everyone is relieved from the tension, freed from having to do anything or even think about it - freed from their own fears, and given an easy way to express their anger and frustration at people who could not easily fight back or defend themselves.

Similarly, if poor people can be seen as hustlers, or lazy, or mentally ill, then people are relieved from the tension of having to think about that. Or perhaps they will be told they are too strident, or "selfish" for trying to push "their cause" on everyone.

But people wouldn't need this relief if they did not on some level care, if what is happening was not disturbing and troubling to them. But they are afraid, and they see no way out. They see two possible positions - bully or bullied, persecutor or victim. They take the side of the bullies and the persecutors, but I do not believe that is the first choice for most people.

The anger cones from the deep sense that everyone has that things are going very wrong. They are led to turn this anger on the least among us, on minority people, on the people who are already suffering and at risk. They are afraid of the alternative - confronting the wealthy and powerful few who are the source of our misery, and the system that supports and rewards the bullies and authoritarians and the greedy among us.

[lonestarnot]

105. Fantastic!

K & R!

[Blue_In_AK]

110. A very insightful post.

I've already recommended -- here's another kick.

For an update on Western Alaska's poverty crisis:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4903651

[Tindalos]

123. K&R - Reading a second time.

Great article Two Americas.

[Starry Messenger]

133. morning kick.

[KoKo]

134. Incredible Post...Hope all will take time to read...also an addition:

We must get the words "Investor Class" and "Consumers" out of the dialog on the Progressive Left. I heard David David Ignatius on C-Span's Washington Journal this morning using both those words. He is a writer for "American Prospect" and a member of what is supposed to be our new Progressive "Think Tank," the Center for American Progress. When asked by the C-Span Moderator..."what poor people, who don't pay taxes will do with a payroll tax cut," David Ignatius stammered and stuttered and said "...well they have to buy food and that puts money back into the economy." It struck me as an incredibly weak and elitist comment coming from someone who really didn't seem to have an idea about the poor and who only thinks of Americans poor and struggling as "consumers" and nothing else.

Perhaps I'm being too harsh on David Ignatius...(I might even have mispelled his name but,I found his dialog on the tax cuts or stimulus very economically oriented and not much different from the Heritage Foundation spokesperson who was on with him, in terminology describing the situation we are faced with. Neither addressed the criminality of the banks or the involvment of the Wealthy to take all from the Middle Class and the very poor through constant policy of Deregulation.

[maryf]

135. Fantastic point

regarding those who don't pay taxes, and if I may broadly digress, another aspect of this, is how often people will answer this question with "charity" which frequently is just a band-aid that aids and abets the elite. Paolo Friere in "pedoagogy of the oppressed" wrote about this in these far left terms: "Any attempt to "soften" the power to the oppressor in deference to the weakness of the oppressed almost always manifests itself in the form of false generosity: indeed, the attempt never goes beyond this. In order to have the continued opportunity to express their "generosity," the oppressors must perpetuate injustice as well. An unjust social order is the permanent fount of the "generosity" which is nourished by death, despair, and poverty. that is why the dispensers of false generosity become desperate at the slightest threat to its source."

[Ocracoker16]

136. I am listening

Two Americas did a wonderful job with this essay. Thanks to all for continuing this discussion. I think that this has been the best thread I have ever read. I have never felt my brain spinning so fast as I read each post. I liked how the theme of listening continued through out the thread, but sparked discussion on many related poverty topics. I would like to write some insightful response, but I am still processing. I think that part of listening is pondering what you hear before you open your mouth. If you are quick to respond, you may be missing part of the message. There is nothing wrong with listening without making some profound statement. People want to tell the poor that they need to do this and that before they have heard all of the story. I consider this thread a story in progress and I hope the story will continue as more comments are made.

Thank you!

recommended

[bobbolink]

138. Thank you for your thoughtfulness! Yes, we need to slow down and consider.

But, not be silent, and you weren't. You let us know it affected you, and that you were thinking about it. That's Active Listening, and it's much appreciated!

Thanks! :applause:

[Fireweed247]

139. This is such an excellent and much needed conversation!

:kick:

[yellerpup]

141. K&R!

Darn, too late to recommend but thanks for the great essay. Congratulations and keep the good work going.

[maryf]

142. Kick for those who missed it...

[Delphinus]

145. Thank you!

I had wanted to read it and missed it the first time around.

[maryf]

146. Reasons to kick!!

Glad you caught it!!

[bobbolink]

147. This is a good use for the "Bookmark" feature!

the replies here are very educational, and deserve rereading.

Bookmarking is highly recommended.

:hi:

[Delphinus]

149. So,

how does one bookmark?

[bobbolink]

150. At the top, just above the OP on the left, are three buttons.

The one on the bottom says "Bookmark"

Careful... if you want the whole thread, you have to click on the OP, then click on "Bookmark".

Otherwise, you'll just get the particular post that you have up at the time.

Then, to retrieve it later, go up to the top, click on "Options" and on the left you will see your bookmarks.

Then you can read all of these enlightening posts all over again!

:hi:

[blindpig]

143. Kick, sorry I'm too late to Recommend. n/t