I need some advice, I don't know if I should intervene.....

[madmom]

My six year old grand daughter is staying with me for the week-end. She is cutting and gluing paper. She just brought me a "cross" she made for "jesus". Now I know for a fact they do not go to church, so I asked her what she new about jesus and who taught her.Her teacher told her jesus was a man that died a long time ago and was always watching her because he loved her. Now I would not have a problem with this except, this is kindergarten in public school.Should I talk with her parents, my son, about this? Also he told me a while back about an incident where they were driving by a church right beside the school and she said "I've been there" and he told her she hadn't and she said yes I have with my school! So what is going on in this supposedly public school, I wonder?

[fjc]

1. I'd start by asking the principal that question.

[seabeyond]

2. i dont think the teacher stepped over the line saying jesus died and loves her

is she and her parents atheist? for a kid to have knowledge isnt bad, especially as she is amongst peers and will hear it some time. if atheist i would acknowledge that there are those that believe and respect their right, and those that dont and respect their right.

[G_j]

4. " was always watching her because he loved her."

that is belief, not knowledge

[seabeyond]

16. of course it is. and he said it in a 5 yr old perspective. if it is something they dont believe

it can be addressed just as i said in this post. children learning different beliefs and opinions in schools and amongst society is NOT the end of the world and it was very watered down and non affensive. though school is seperate of religion, this was very insignificant.

if a person wants to make a big deal about it, do it. i think it is the wrong approach

[Orrex]

21. Not offensive to you, perhaps

But the teacher was clearly witnessing, however "watered down" you find her message to be.

Would you consider it appropriate if the child had gone to school wearing a cross, and the teacher had said "Jesus is a fairy tale to make people feel better about dying?"

[seabeyond]

23. no i would not have minded. my kids would have come home and talked to me

and we would have had a conversation about differing views. i am not afraid, i embrace, enjoy and value the opportunity to discuss with my kids

[Orrex]

30. 'Afraid' has nothing to do with it

And even if you wouldn't have minded, it's not for you to declare it "okay" for public school teachers to spread the Word.

The teacher overstepped her authority. By witnessing about one particular religious belief system, she was clearly giving weight to that belief in favor of others.

By implying that parents are "afraid" of exposing their children to other views, you are insulting those parents and trying to misdirect the topic. I am most certianly not "afraid" to let my children learn of other cultures or religious beliefs, provided that no one belief is implicitly given as the right or predominant one.

Did the teacher provide info about Mohammed or Krishna? Or is that a lesson for another day?


The teacher was clearly in the wrong. The OP should contact the school to confirm the school's guidelines for discussing religion in class: if the teacher acted outside those guidelines, then this should be reported; if she was within the guidelines, then those guidelines should be re-evaluated.

[seabeyond]

34. the teacher was asked a question. it was not a lesson, it was not an effort to make the child

christian. she was aksed a question.

i dont agree with you

[madmom]

49. As far as I know the teacher was NOT ask a question. That's why I was interested in finding

out where she learned of this because they do not attend church.

[seabeyond]

51. ah, sorry

my assumption.

[WillieW]

123. Finding out about Jesus is not a bad thing!

[seabeyond]

126. she might have already known. she might have learned it at home. she might have

just been asking relevence of cross. she might have been told, some people think

we dont know shit

[Arugula Latte]

93. The woman took the kids to her church -- sounds like she IS trying to convert them.

Most definitely.

[madmom]

97. Do not know if it is/was HER church, just a neighborhood church.

[seabeyond]

99. to carve pumpkins? to watch a non christian play or chorus? to do some other activity

that had nothing to do with religion?

you dont have the info. yet you chose the very worst of assumptions to create her as evil, ooops, going to hell, ooops.... bad

[Arugula Latte]

105. She should keep her yap shut about Jesus and other imaginary playmates.

This is a public school.

[Orrex]

168. I accept that you disagree with me, but you're still wrong

An authority figure is stating as fact what is simply a belief, and this authority figure is a teacher at a public school. In so doing, she is witnessing to the child, and she has overstepped the bounds of what is acceptable.

This isn't simply a teacher wearing a crucifix necklace or having a bible on her desk; she's actually speaking of her faith as if it were fact, apparently with no disclaimer such as "I believe" or "some people think."

You're trying to reframe this as if any objection to witnessing is based in a fear of exposing the child to knowledge, when clearly that's not the case. The fear is that an authority figure is using her position to proselytize to children who haven't yet developed the skills of critical thinking by which they might distinguish fact from faith.

You're free to offer whatever protests you think appropriate, but this is a straightforward case of a teacher spreading the Good News on the public's dime.

[seabeyond]

170. everyone is assuming the teachers intent. it could have been just as easily

a simply knee jerk answer. we dont know the mess of things in conversation. we dont know eactly what the teacher said cause down below the way grandma asked child wasnt clear what exactly it was teacher said and if other stuff was things she knew.

i dont know.

need more info

i feel that what has happened is if any part of the teacher comes into play (the human that she is) her ass is jumped on from one side or another, one issue and objection after another. they are humans that do bring their belief or who they are as a person into the classroom. we cannot expect or demand anything else. we can be patient and if it was a "slip" allow her the grace to correct it without guilotine, and if it was preaching and converting, fire her ass

just didnt feel like it to me.

[Orrex]

172. It wouldn't be a kneejerk answer if it weren't the teacher's belief

If that was her kneejerk answer, then that's what she really believes. I sure as hell wouldn't have answered that way, and neither would a Muslim, Buddhist, or Jew.

The fact that the child came away with an impression of the cross, which is basically the lynchpin of Christianity, means that something was imparted to the child beyond what is acceptable.

As a matter of fact I do demand that public school teachers keep their mouths shut about matters of religion. If asked, they can reveal which faith they follow and which church they attend, but they absolutely must not frame their beliefs as statements of fact, as appears to have happened in this case. Heck, when I was in high school in the late 80's, teachers weren't even allowed to express their own opinions regarding the correctness of Darwin's explanation of evolution! If a teacher can't keep a better lid on her witnessing, then perhaps she should consider working for a different school

Suppose that the child asked Ms. Smith why she doesn't get along with Ms. Jones, and Ms. Smith answered "because she's a fucking crack whore." Would you as readily forgive Ms. Smith that kneejerk answer? Or would you require some addressing of it beyond a chat between child and parent?

And that's just a matter of polite speech in the classroom. If the OP is accurate, then the teacher in the present case has violated the first amendment--a much more serious transgression, I submit.

[seabeyond]

173. ok, fine.... go for it. get her. really. n/t

[Sal Minella]

29. It's not insignificant to tell a small child "Jesus is dead but he watches you all the time" --

that's about as creepy as it gets. Whether you want to admit it or not, this amounts to teaching religious belief (but it's "Christian" so it's okay with you).

In a publicly funded school, this is decidedly contrary to separation of church and state. It's not "knowledge" at all, it's religious superstition.

(If the child had been to a mosque and told that Mahomet was dead and is watching her all the time, would you be this blase about it?)

[seabeyond]

36. i do not agree

and dont be making assumptions of my beliefs, you really have no knowledge, ergo cannot accurately tell me who or what i believe.

[Sal Minella]

92. If you think it's okay to teach a small child in a public school, "Jesus is dead but he's watching

you," that tells me precisely about your beliefs -- no need to guess or assume.

I am asking you, then -- would it be okay with you if the teacher told your five-year-old child in school, "Mahomet is dead but he is watching over you?"

Would you consider that "knowledge?"

"Mithra is dead but he watches over you." Is that "knowledge?"

[seabeyond]

101. it tells me you are wrong in your assumption, that you jump on that assumption not knowing

and demanding it is a truth, again not knowing, kinda like you are with this teacher, lacking so much info

you are wrong

[Sal Minella]

119. If a teacher tells a child, "Mithra is dead but he's watching over you," do you consider

that statement as "knowledge" suitable for teaching in a publicly funded school?

Could you please answer the question???
(and spare me your off-topic opinions)

[seabeyond]

124. you tell me who i am, i correct you and i am off topic? now, i suppose because i challenge

you on this, you will accuse me of being off topic once again. can you focus and follow your own posts?

mirtha dead watching you....

i dont know that it was an issue of teaching or if things were happening in the classroom and a statement made. i dont know what part was from what teacher said and what the child already knew. i dont know much of anything, nor do you

that is not off topic because you are asking me with the understanding that you have fact of what happened that day and we do not have fact

if child came home and told me about mirtha, i would have to discuss with son what it was about, how it came about and then discuss my views and tell him to check it out himself, that he had lots of years to figure it out and that we all have differing views, even someone believing in mirtha, but cause i dont know a mirtha i cannot give my opinion. and no.... critical thinking in a school, various opinions and ideas in a school do not bother me

but i cannot assume this teacher did much of anything, cause we dont know.... the grand parent doesnt know

[Sal Minella]

152. Your answer makes no sense. I assume you intended it to make no sense.

"the grand parent doesnt know"

The grandparent knows the kid made a cross and talked about Jesus, things she picked up at school.

If you want to deny that this happened, that's fine.

[madmom]

98. You say "dont be making assumptions of my beliefs" but while reading

through the posts here, it seems by your answers, you assume a lot.

[seabeyond]

104. ONE thing and i have apologized, recognized and acknowledge twice

and from your post, that person said it for a reason, you post just lacks the info to find out why it was said.

one thing, i made and assumption.... one thing, from the way your post was written it sounded like a question was asked, one thing that i ask for forgiveness.... not necessarily in a christian way, wink

[RubyDuby in GA]

5. No, it doesn't matter what religion her parents are or if they aren't religious at all

This teacher has not stepped over a line - she has pole vaulted way past the line.

First, tell the parents, then everyone needs to sit down for a nice chat with the principal.

[seabeyond]

17. bullshit. i am adressing things that are said in school all the time without

running to the school. it is teaching the children about differing views. not..... makes sure nothing out side the box is said in school. way to restrictive and this is a learning environment for a lot of years....

[Le Taz Hot]

24. Could these people just teach

about the invisible man in the sky at church and leave THE CAPTIVE AUDIENCES AT SCHOOL alone? Why does EVERYONE have to be subjected to this superstitious nonsense? Exactly what part of separation of church and state aren't these guys getting?

[seabeyond]

28. the child asked the teacher a question. n/t

[Le Taz Hot]

32. And the teacher

SHOULD have responded by suggesting that the student ask their parents as it would be inappropriate for her/him to respond. It's the same responses teachers use (or should use) when asked about sex. It's simply inappropriate to respond in any other way.

[seabeyond]

37. ok.... i dont agree. IF they want to address this i dont care either.

an opinion was asked, i gave it. i see these things as opportunity with my children in so many different areas.

[madmom]

52. THE child did NOT ask the teacher a question! Where did you get that idea?

[seabeyond]

58. again....

sorry. made the assumption in your writing. my mistake.

[RubyDuby in GA]

55. How about teaching a lesson plan that doesn't include Stalker Jesus?

Its fucking kindergarten, not comparative religion. The only bullshit is your attempt to justify such blatantly wrong actions by this "teacher".

[seabeyond]

60. but it wasnt a lesson plan was it. n/t

[RubyDuby in GA]

70. Precisely. So what the fuck was this "teacher" doing instructing this impressionable child

in the ways of the "teacher's" religion?

If it were a private christian school, it would be understandable, but in a public school - THAT RECEIVES PUBLIC FUNDING - it is most certainly not acceptable for anyone to be proselytizing to a captive audience of impressionable children that look up to their teachers and if you can't understand that, then there really is nothing more to discuss with you.

[seabeyond]

73. my gosh how you expand the story, was the teacher at a pulpit too as she preached

this lesson.

do you know there wasn't conversation going amongst the kids. do you know why this comment was made. do you know the kid hasn't already gotten from parent...

you have the teacher culting the child with one sentence the op brought to us from a 5 yr old child, with no exploration of how it all happened.

judged, sentenced, hanged

just not the way i approach it.

if YOU feel the need, or the parents of the girl, or the grandparents want to address it, i have no issue with that either. i am all for open dialog and communication. an opinion was asked. i gave it. i think differently than you, obviously

[NeedleCast]

74. How is "stalker Jesus" any different from Santa?

Santa knows when you are sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows if you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sake!

FFS, Stalker Jesus...

Even as an atheist that's over the top.

[conscious evolution]

177. With stalker santa you get presents

evry year.
With stalker jesus you get presents after you die.

[RaleighNCDUer]

89. "Stalker Jesus"

I love it.

"Every step you take...I'll be watching you!"

[Sal Minella]

125. The Constitution puts religious beliefs "outside the box" of public schooling. Just a reminder.

[seabeyond]

127. i have been fighting fundie seperation of church and state for a decade.... oh wait

you already know who i am and what i think

[Deep13]

10. Yes, she clearly did step over the line.

It is a religious belief based on nothing and designed to attract or guilt-trip the kid to Christianity. In point of fact, Jesus is dead (if he ever existed) and is, therefore, incapable of loving or watching out for her.

[Marrah_G]

13. As a non Christian parent I would have flipped out on the teacher

I do not try to convert Christian kids- I expect the same respect in return.

[seabeyond]

22. i dont see anyone trying to convert. a simple statement. i had to go into

school for my second grader to talk about religion in a fundamental environment. they do not have our beliefs. kid was being told he was going to hell cause he was sticking up for people. talked to teacher about it, shared our beliefs, that kid would hold true and be respectful to fellow students, and i expected the same for him.

i approached it the same way in a republican environment with election. differing view. they would be respectful and expected the same

i NEVER demanded lack of exploration of thought and ideas.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

26. If a 5 year old child...

If a 5 year old child that is a member of a non-believing family is told by a teacher, (a person high up on the authority ladder), that Jesus loves them and died for their sins, that is most definitely trying to convert that child.

Suppose the child is Jewish, and the teacher tells her that Jesus loves her and died for her sins, and that He really wants her to believe in Him.

This is really a clear-cut case.

[seabeyond]

31. no it is not trying to convert, and having had two children recently at 5 i am not threatened

that anyone has power over that kid but parent.

it isnt bothersome or a problem of differing view at 5 and ridiculous to suggest otherwise. it is a time when parents have ultimate control and power over the child.

my kids went to private christian school. we didnt believe ANYTHING they believed and they were being pumped with this shit 5 days a week. it lead to conversation of what we do think and why we dont agree and how to disagree respectfully, yet expressing opinion

even at 5

[JeffreyWilliamson]

44. Private Christian School...

Sounds like you had the benefit of knowing the kind of religious instruction your children would get going into the situation, and could warn them to ask you about everything they were heard.

The OP may be in a similar situation but it doesn't sound like it. There is a big difference in this happening in a public school versus a private Christian school. We can assume that in one of the two there will be attempts at religious discussion. Not so sure we should have to expect that to happen in the other.

[seabeyond]

47. the reason we went to private had nothing to do with religion. i pulled kids out of private in '04

and put them in public. they have absolutely had to deal with religious issues in public school. as i said in a post, child in 2nd grade and kids were saying he was going ot hell cause he stuck up for different people and their beliefs. i had a discussion with teacher, not to stop the kids from expressing but to keep eye on it. my childs belief. and though he would disagree he would do it respectfully and i expected the same from other kids

it was not an issue of keeping everyone quiet.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

50. But it sounds like in the case of the schools...

You knew going into the private school that the teachers would instruct religious ideas. It was a private Christian school.

Then, in the public school scenario, it sounds like the clash of ideas was between your child and the other children--NOT THE TEACHER. Let me know if I understood that incorrectly, but if I didn't, that's a big difference there.

There is a huge difference between a child hearing religious statements in school from their fellow students, and getting instructed in it by their teachers.

[madmom]

59. But see you still had a discussion with the teacher about your beliefs!

[seabeyond]

61. yes. that is why i said i wouldnt go into school for that

i am saying that i am not opposed talking to teachers when i think there may be a need. you asked for opinion, i merely gave you mine. it doesnt mean i am insisting i know and do it my way. there are things i discuss with teachers, .... there is tons i discuss with kids. i would not get riled about what was said, but i would be interested, given my beliefs exactly what happened and how it happened. and how the child feels about it.

i do not think what the teacher said was a big deal, i would not demand she be reprimanded (on what you say, i dont know if there is more) i would not go to the board and i wouldnt go to principal until or if i talked to teacher and felt the need.

[Marrah_G]

157. You CHOSE to send your children to a Christian school

That is the difference.

[seabeyond]

158. the point, i have experienced many things, public and private, stating experience

not that the christian school had any other point to the post

[conscious evolution]

176. Its not converting

Its indoctrination.
When an authority figure like a teacher states something as fact it is usually taken as fact by children that age.
At that age a child is likely to believe it when a teacher tells them there is a guy who died so he can watch over you.After all most children that age still believes a big jolly guy flys around the world in a sliegh pulled by riendeer and stops at every childs house and slides down a chimney to deliver presents.

[Marrah_G]

156. That is your choice

Mine is to not have people whom have authority over my children in a public school setting to impress THEIR beliefs upon them.

My children are well aware of how evangelical, preachy types feel about their family.

Somehow I doubt any teacher proclaiming her deity loved my child and died to show his love for my child would be welcoming of our Wiccan traditions. I say this after many years of experience. Christians who accept my religious beliefs are those who would NEVER impress their views on anyone, especially not a child they have authority over.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

18. "if atheist i would acknowledge that there are those that believe and respect their right"

If you were an atheist would you consider your child's own kindergarten teacher telling them the story of Jesus, and then telling that child that Jesus died because "He loved you", a "right" that should be respected?

Put another way, I'm guessing you're a Christian. If you aren't, let's pretend that you are. I am an atheist. Now suppose I'm also your daughter's 1st Grade Teacher. Your daughter comes to class on Monday, and I ask the children what they did over the weekend. Your daughter says that your family spent Sunday at Church participating in some pot-luck dinner or ice-cream whatever. I respond by telling your daughter that there is no such thing as God, that Jesus did not care about her or even know she'd ever exist, and that you all wasted your Sunday.

Would you support my "right" to do that?

[seabeyond]

27. yes i would support, but i would also share with kid that you were a bit nasty

and unkind adding the "you wasted your sunday". i was fine until this point. this teacher was not aggressive or nasty with what was said.

no, .... i have never cared about differing views being given to my kids. really not even in nasty, cause is an opportunity to discuss.

and dont assume about the christian thing, .... i am not a easily to define christian. a mix of so much and adamantly anti religion

[JeffreyWilliamson]

39. The problem is that it isn't necessarily an opportunity to discuss it...

Because the child doesn't sound like they came right home and asked mom or dad about what teacher said--if they had, we wouldn't be reading this thread. Instead, it sounds like the child took the teacher's word at face value and ran with it.

The child has probably been taught at home to respect the teacher and listen to what they are teaching. I'm guessing a 6 year old is probably too young to explain shades of grey, personal belief systems, and making judgement calls about what teacher has told them in order to inform mom or dad about certain things in order to foster debate.

What I'm getting at is, the teacher doesn't know the student's belief system, but the teacher PROBABLY knows that the child has been taught to respect the teacher and pay attention to what is taught.

Teacher should have watched what they said.

I'm editing this to add something else:

Remember that the OP mentions that the grandchild produced a "cross" that she made for Jesus.

There is more going on here than a teacher just telling a student that Jesus loves them. Where did the cross come from and how did the child make the connection between cross and Jesus?

[seabeyond]

43. firstly, there is none of your assumptions in the op. none of it. my first thought is

what are their beliefs, has parents already addressed, are they fine with it.... dont have any of that info

secondly

hasnt been that long since my kids were 5. maybe living in an area where our beliefs are about polar opposite in all ways from the vast majority it has just always been a part of discussing the difference....

even at 5.

i dont agree with you. but as i say, what a parent does with this is their right. if they talked to teacher respectfully, it is another opportunity for learning on all sides. i am so NOT opposed to open communication in all ways

[JeffreyWilliamson]

48. Let me ask you this...

How would you react if you moved and your children enrolled in public school, and one day they came to you with a picture of a cresent moon and told you they drew it for Muhammed, because he is blessed by Allah? And after a little questioning, you discover that they have come by this knowledge via conversations with their public school teacher. So you have a discussion with them about those beliefs and let it lie.

Then, a few weeks later, while driving through your new town, one of them points to the local mosque and tells you in passing that Allah lives there. When you ask how they know that, they tell you that their teacher told them, when he took the class there one day.

You'd really be fine with that?

[seabeyond]

56. i really would

i probably go beyond fine with that and discuss with them what was said.

there are things we do not know here.

she could have been sittin next to a child cutting a cross and that could have started conversation. there is so much in this story we dont know. she could have been having conversations with parents. they could have taught her. maybe the cross and the statement was brought up because that is what she made in school and the comment was made by the teacher.

we really do not know anything.

i would be curious what the op has to say after talking to parents.

i knew what was going on with kids in kindergarten and knew if they went to a church. churches in this area haas different things and are used for activities that has nothing to do with religion. pumpkin carving. we dont know anything here. the parents can be totally aware of what is happening in that class.

[RaleighNCDUer]

87. First, the parents beliefs has nothing to do with it. Proselyting by teachers

in a public school is ILLEGAL. Even if the parents are OK with it, it is still ILLEGAL.

Second: Talking to the teacher is a waste of time because there is not a teacher in the country that doesn't know that proselytizing by teachers is ILLEGAL. What the teacher did was against the law and the teacher KNEW it.

This is not about communication on differing beliefs. It is about a violation of the establishment clause, religious instruction by a person who is 2nd only to the parents in authority to a 5 year old child who cannot defend himself even if he recognizes that anything is wrong.

[seabeyond]

107. i say .... hang her.... n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

114. This is in Ohio, not Texas.

Firing is sufficient.

[seabeyond]

118. bah hahhaah i was just lectured firing her was a false something or other. n/t

[gollygee]

132. The suggestion that the only two options availble are "not talking to the school" and "firing"

or for that matter "hanging" or "shooting" - that is a false dichotomy. No such choice exists.

If it were my kid, I'd talk to the principal. That's it. And the principal has a number of choices available, if he/she finds that the teacher acted inappropriately. Tell her to stop and give her some kind of reprimand or something would be in between "do nothing" and "fire", for instance. The teacher hopefully has a union to protect her so she should get a fair shake. But if she was doing something unconstitutional (which, yes, teaching religious beliefs would be), then something should be done to stop that from continuing.

[seabeyond]

137. talk to principal, and your opinion.... no big deal you get it. i have no

need to talk about false dichotomy or anything else. it is what you think needs to be done.

i have on many posts suggested talking to teacher. so not really bothered by that
i wouldnt, my opinion, as valid as yours
firing, well it has been suggested in this subthread????

[gollygee]

141. Firing is an option too

particularly if she is found to have broken a law or the terms of her contract. But the principal, other school officials, and the school board would have to figure that out.

[seabeyond]

144. you just chewed me out for that

hm

wink

[gollygee]

19. 5-year-olds aren't quite that savvy

If their teacher says it, it must be The Truth.

I would be upset if my daughter's teacher said that to her. I would be livid. It's my job to do the religious education.

[seabeyond]

38. are you telling me, mama, that your teacher has the power of

must be true over you

cause that was not the dynamic, nor is it now with kids being 11 and 13, in our family.

i still dont get the threat of peer pressure with my boys as they still value my thought, opinion, belief and ideas over their friends by far.

[gollygee]

53. This is a 5-year-old, not an 11- or 13-year-old

You can't expect a 5-year-old to discern his/her teacher's opinion from fact.

And I haven't had a teacher in 20 years.

[seabeyond]

62. my point being, you say teacher all knowing. i say at 5 parent is the all knowing

above and beyond all authority. i never gave the power to teachers. and at this point in kids life when peers are suppose to have so much more all knowing over parents, .... still they dont

[gollygee]

65. To a 5-year-old, many adults could seem to be all-knowing

If you're sending your kids to school, you are giving power to their teachers. If they didn't have any power over your kids, they wouldn't be able to teach to them.

[seabeyond]

68. i so dont agree with you. my kids and i have actually had conversation about this very thing

and at the youngest of age. from the moment those kids step into an environment of getting info from outside world, contradiction happens. and the discussions begin

i do not agree with your post at all

[gollygee]

95. So because it didn't work that way for two children on the planet

it must not work that way for any?

[seabeyond]

108. i really dont think many parents would consider themselves powerless in a 5

yr old world.

but if that is a reality

then thank you lord, ooooops, universe, ooooops, ... just yea, that my two kids listen, talk, value, communicate with me.

[gollygee]

110. FFS I didn't say parents are powerless

You have a huge issue with false dichotomies. The parents have power over hte kids but the teacher does as well.

[seabeyond]

112. again, from personal experience, i do not agree. not even a little bit

not kinda, not sorta. hasnt happened in my family yet. that is the only thing i can go off of golly. respectfully.

[gollygee]

121. Why don't you google "teachers influence children" or some such thing

Teachers definitely have power over children they teach. Particularly over young children. If they didn't have any power over them, they wouldn't be able to teach them anything. Usually their power to influence children helps children learn things in a positive way. But the power can be negative too - such as when teachers seduce 13-year-old students, or here's a link about teachers' power over students prejudices: http://www.hbns.org/newsrelease/teachers7-20-01.cfm

[seabeyond]

128. ah, cause.... i have two kids and am living it. lol. n/t

[gollygee]

134. Anecdote does not equal data. n/t

[seabeyond]

139. bah hahhahaha. lol lol. ok. am i allowed to disagree golly? n/t

[saltpoint]

20. I do. First, it isn't knowledge. Second, it almost certainly violates

approved curriculum guidelines.

[peace13]

25. Please replace the word Jesus with Allah and see how you feel.

Or maybe the teacher decided to talk about how Jesus is a make believe story. I bet that doesn't sit quite so well.

[seabeyond]

41. none of it would bothers me peace. as a matter of fact we have talked

about islamic religion, all religions and lack of religion in our house. NONE of it bothers me.

[IdaBriggs]

57. Deleted. I think a public school teacher discussing religion with a 5 year old is

inappropriate unless the parents are told about it in advance/are okay with it. It amounts to conversion attempts, when opinions are presented as 'facts', which in this case, sounds like what it was. Do I think the teacher had ill intentions? Probably not -- she undoubtedly believes she was trying to 'save' someone from a bad place.

Not all parents discuss religion as openly as you, seabeyond; in fact, one of my sisters was the inspiration for teaching my children as much as I do, because her daughter got converted thanks to 'cookies at church' when she was a pre-teen.

[seabeyond]

64. lol lol lol.... not even sure what you are saying here, but ok. n/t

[IdaBriggs]

67. I deleted it because while trying to be funny, I realized it was disrespectful.

I'm glad you caught the humor! LOL!

I was trying to say that telling a child that someone who is dead is now alive and watching them from the sky sounds like a zombie to a child who isn't versed in the specifics of a religion; also, I was politely reminding folks that those who don't believe in 'returning from the dead' still have respect for Teachers (aka Prophets).

[seabeyond]

79. i had no religion growing up, spirituality, not religion. lived in calif. i moved to texas

it is a whole different world. when having kids my huge concern was the racism and sexist issue in this state, no thought to religion.

i put kids in private school. it was religious, they have no other kind of private school. not why i put them in. i was then introduced into fundie world and what a world it is. my children and i learned so much, invaluable to us, regardless of how hard and challenging it was.

this area it is not even a thought, effort, consideration, but that there is a god. it is in all of who they are. it is a natural part of them.

as much as i and we are not that..... i also know and understand this is who they are.

there are some that are fanatical and aggressive and mean spirited, but as a whole most only have this as their life. for something to have come up.... i am told she didnt ask, but something came up for the teacher to make that comment.

it was nothing in my view

that is all

i dont see mean intent
i dont see forcing opinion
i dont see converting

i just see a comment.

and that is what matters to me

if there is more, then go at it.

[seabeyond]

69. what if.... and we do not know so much to this story, so little info given

what if the crosses were being done by some, and girl did cross, and conversation arose with other children, daughter had already had conversation with parents and it is talk at home and teacher said some believe and child giving it to grandparent didnt add that in cause she didnt think needed.

we dont know anything about the what why or how

[IdaBriggs]

78. This is what I responded to --

"Her teacher told her jesus was a man that died a long time ago and was always watching her because he loved her."

How do dead people watch you? Why would someone who never met you love you? There are folks who believe tales of Jesus are pure fiction, while others believe they have 'proof' of his existence -- NONE of this stuff is to be found in a textbook approved by the public school system for kindergarten students.

The bottom line is this: you don't teach from the Bible in public schools. If you are in a position of authority in public schools, keep your OPINIONS on religion to yourself. There are at least three OPINIONS in that one sentence:

- Jesus was a man (who existed).
- Jesus watches her, despite being dead.
- Jesus (a dead man) loves (current) her.

A discussion of different belief systems can be great; that isn't what this was. The teacher was proselytizing inappropriately. Toss in a visit to a local church (which may or may not have happened), and the parents need a heads up. What they choose to do with the information is up to them.

[seabeyond]

80. shoot the lady. she doesnt deserve to live

now, that was in humor too.

there are big deals in life. i dont see this as one. i have really had issues come in from schools and teachers and still i didnt react like some of the posters here.

really

want to fry the lady, i am fine with that too

[Arugula Latte]

94. That is SO inappropriate in so many ways.

What an abuse of authority.

Definitely tell the parents.

[RaleighNCDUer]

76. Regardless of what her parents are or are not, SHE is a five years

old child receiving religious indoctrination from a public school teacher.

There is NO way that is not wrong.

[seabeyond]

81. i call bullshit. on the little we know, and dont know.....

i dont agree it is indoctrine.

but then we are allowed to see differently, and we dont always have to agree.

[dbonds]

84. That is NOT knowledge. That is a belief.

One should not be injecting mythical beliefs into public schools unless it is a mythology class.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

100. What part don't you understand about separation of church and state. That teacher

had absolutely no right to preach (and it is preaching) to the child.

[HelenWheels]

106. (if this did happen) It's way over the line

and the teacher needs to be reprimanded.

Is the addition of if this did happen make it more palatable. I always come from the innocent until proven guilty but forget that others can't read my mind.

[seabeyond]

109. fire her ass, and BEFORE there is any real info on what happened. n/t

[gollygee]

111. Another false dichotomy

They are talking about telling the parents, who might talk to the school. The grandparent, and the parents even, have no power to fire anyone. And there is room between "let it go" and "fire". Or "hanging" - another of your false dichotomies elsewhere in the thread.

[seabeyond]

116. they wanted opinion. this is an opinion. with all the anger and outrage my opinion

fire her ass...

no false anything there. geeeesh

[nini]

113. I think voodoo and witchcraft would be better

I'm sure no one would say that's stepping over the line :sarcasm:

Read up on the separation of church and state. You have dead wrong on this one.

[seabeyond]

120. i dont agree. a teacher made a statement. there is not enough info to know exactly

what was said by whom, what part may be what the girl already knows, what was added in, what was left out.

[gollygee]

122. Which is why they should talk to the school

so school officials can figure out what the teacher is teaching.

[seabeyond]

130. how about talking to the teacher and seeing if maybe it was ntohing.... n/t

[gollygee]

136. Yes, that is also an option

Though I'd go through the principal because I wouldn't want to get into a "he said/she said" thing between my kid and the teacher. I'd let the principal sort it out.

[seabeyond]

140. woooosh.... finally. we can be done

happy vday to you

[defendandprotect]

162. "Knowledge" should be based on facts . . . "Jesus" is myth . . .

[glinda]

3. I would talk to her parents

[Arkansas Granny]

6. I would talk with her parents and let them decide what, if anything, they

want to do about the situation.

[saltpoint]

7. If your son ok's it, I would write a respectful letter of inquiry addressed to

the child's parents, the classroom teacher, and the principal. Have both parents' and your own signatures on the letter.

Their copies arrive the next day or two. A necessary conversation is created.

In the letter, summarize the exchange between you and your grand-daughter and then express concern that religious instruction for 5-year olds is not likely a State Board of Education topic in the approved curriculum.

Ask that the School's policy be clarified and also for assurance that such instruction, if it is taking place, will be discontinued.

A well-written and very direct letter of this sort would "assist" the principal's understanding that you object to what has taken place and might be inclined to seek legal remedy were the transgression to persist.

The principal will likely get the message and a very focused dialogue will ensue between principal and classroom teacher.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

8. THE BORED UGIN ARE A CANCER

:puke:

[Avalux]

9. Talk to your son; then go talk to the Principal. District Administrator too.

If your six year-old granddaughter went on a field trip to a church, her parents would have needed to sign a release so there should be a record of it (I don't care if it is right next door). If not, then the school is in serious violation; children cannot be taken off school grounds without parent permission.

This is a separate issue from WHY they visited a church and why the teacher is talking about Jesus and obviously teaching kids how to make crosses (I doubt your granddaughter came up with cutting and gluing a cross on her own).

The school needs to be investigated.

[madmom]

35. I asked about the permission slip at the time he told me this and they signed a "general" permission

slip at the beginning of the year for the whole year.

[pipi_k]

45. OK, that is just WRONG

When I was in school, and when my kids were in school, there were specific permission slips for each school outing. Parents have the right to refuse permission for their kids to go to certain places.


I think this teacher is taking advantage of the general permission slip and needs to be disciplined.

[madmom]

77. My thoughts exactly, but I bit my tongue on that one.

[seabeyond]

85. do you know why they do that now? too many parents werent returnign slips and kids werent able

to take trips. then parents get mad cause their kid is left behind. they have ONE package at start of year to get all papers signed before kid steps in cause too many parents arent doing too many things and the schools are trying to do their best for all the kids were parents are failing them

[elfin]

11. Talk to the parents

If it bothers them - they are the ones to have a chat with the principal -- or school board if necessary.

If it doesn't bother the parents - stay out of it, bite your tongue and enjoy your grandchild as she is. Don't risk alienating them, if it is OK with them.

[Donnachaidh]

12. talk to her parents FIRST

any school trips taken require a written permission slip from the parents. If it turns out that the permission slip was never sent home -- then it's time the parents spoke to the school.

Personally, I've had no problems in the past going to my kid's school and telling them that we are NOT Christian, and are not happy with proselytizing in classes. I have zero tolerance for this sort of nonsense.

The schools can lose federal funding if it seems they are promoting Christianity to the students.

[Marrah_G]

14. Talk to you son right away

[madokie]

15. I was raised in a real southern Babtist church family

The church our dad started back in '52 is still there having services today and only one of my rather large family, 13 to begin with, 8 still going strong, is religious today. Your Grand daughter will be fine and come to her senses once she grows up a bit so I wouldn't worry about it much now and especially don't make an issue of it because that may drive her to be what her better sense ultimately will tell her is not. By being judgemental you are no better than those who are the subject of your worry. Live your life as the model you want for her is the best you can do.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

33. If it were me, I'd mention it to your son...

Perhaps recommend that they mention something to the teacher in passing, and then depending upon the outcome, move up the ladder to the principal. No sense in getting too over the top with a reaction unless the teacher is one of those types that run to the ACLJ in the hopes of becoming some kind of church star. This sounds like a it may be just a case of a teacher that doesn't think before speaking.

[MiniMe]

40. Talk to the parents

THEY need to bring it up to the school. But the school should absolutely NOT be pushing religion on her. What if she was Jewish? Or any of the other dozens of religions out there? It's getting ridiculous.

[pipi_k]

42. I like the answer given

in reply number 7 the best.


Personally I wouldn't have a problem with a kid being curious and asking about Jesus or religion or whatever, and a teacher (even a public teacher) giving a short, objective explanation, e.g. Jesus was a man who lived a long time ago and some people believe he was the son of God (or whatever) and then go on to explain that there are OTHER religions in the world also, like Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, etc. and some people don't have a religion at all. Then leave it at that.

But to focus on Christianity that way...nope. It's none of the teacher's business to tell kids that Jesus "watches and loves" them.

My two granddaughters both go to a Catholic school, and my son, who is Agnostic/Atheist (the school was his wife's idea) does tell them that there are other religions besides Christianity. He doesn't try to inflict his own non-belief on them, and he also wants to make sure they're not brainwashed into thinking only ONE religion is the "right" one.

[JNelson6563]

46. This teacher is abusing her position of authority

to witness to a captive audience to rack up points on her ticket to heaven. Ugh. The very worst kind IMO.

If I were this little girl's mom I usre would be goin' to school for a chat with the teacher and, if I didn't get anywhere, I'd move on to the principal.

Julie

[AngMic]

54. WTF?

This teacher did not step over the line she obliterated it. She should NOT be indoctrinating children or taking them to church. Leaving aside for the moment the thorny separation of church state issues
This teacher took the kids OFF school grounds WITHOUT their parents knowledge or permission. Can you spell L-A-W-S-U-I-T? The later may get more attention and a quicker response from the school administration then a complaint about religion. Either way the teacher needs to be disciplined.

I had a similar problem when my daughter was in kindergarten, it took a visit to the Superintendent of Schools to get it straightened out.
Decisions about religion should be left to the family.

Good luck to you

[NNN0LHI]

63. Don't say anything to the child please

At this age the teachers are still teaching the kids that the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are the real deal too.

This is a job for the parents when they are ready. Or discuss it with them and not the child at the very least. And then I would let them handle it.

Please.

Don

[madmom]

82. I have not said anything more to the child. I did not want to make it appear

as if something was wrong with what she did/said. THAT is why there is so little info to go on. I let the subject drop.

[Xenotime]

83. Isn't not saying anything doing something?

This is where decisions are made in a person's life.

[madmom]

88. I did not say anything because 1. I did not want to make my grand daughter uncomfortable about

talking to me about anything if need be. 2. It is not my place to discuss this particular topic with her, unlike the teacher, I believe it is her parents job.

[Xenotime]

91. That's how dems lost to pugs when they don't say anything..

It wasn't until we all stood and said "Yes we can" that we now have Obama in office. The same thing applies here.

[madmom]

96. I understand what you are saying here, but it is not the same thing at all IMO.

This is a 5 year old child. I will NOT hammer on her about anything. I will let the parents know of the situation and let them decide what to do in the matter.

[NNN0LHI]

175. I trust your judgement on this issue madmom

I know you are not going to get into a philosophical debate about religion with a 5-year old child.

Don

[cherish44]

66. I'm in the talk to the parents camp

If they want to pursue something the can. This kind of thing really makes me mad though. And it's not fair to kids who may be of another faith besides Christian. Leave that stuff for home and church and out of public schools.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

71. I'm replying again to ask a question of the OP...

Do you know why she brought you a cross? What I mean is, I couldn't tell from the original post if she already knew the Jesus-Cross connection or if it was something she may have picked up from the teacher. Or if you yourself have no idea.

I'm asking because if she wouldn't have made the connection before her interaction with the teacher, then this becomes much more than a careless teacher mouthing off stuff they shouldn't. I recommended having the parents mention something to the teacher at some point, but I'd change that to going straight to the principal depending on the cross answer.

[madmom]

86. I only know this.. she made a cross, brought it over and said "I made this for jesus..."

how the connection came about is something I tried to gather from asking the few questions I did but nothing was there.

I asked: How do you know about jesus? My teacher told me.
What do you know about him? He's always watching me because he loves me.
Did she say anything else? na
A few minutes later she (grand daughter) said he died on the cross.

That is the gist of the conversation.I did not pursue it because I did not want to make her uncomfortable talking with me about anything.

[JeffreyWilliamson]

90. You did the best thing there not fishing too much...

Good that you were able to get some info, which was needed.

Pushing her too much more may have made her uncomfortable so sounds like you had a good feel for when to stop.

The whole situation is surprising. My mother finished her teacher's certification a couple of years ago and as part of the requirements she had to take several classes on diversity and law. She left the classes with a firm grasp on what not to say and how not to act. They even role-played doing a home visit and discovering that the parents were two men. And this is in Texas.

I wonder what your son's opinion will be when he hears about this?

[bunkerbuster1]

72. It's hard to know how the topic arose in school.

...but to be as fair as possible to the teacher, she may have been asked by another schoolmate in the presence of your granddaughter "Who is Jesus."

As for why the kids might have gone to a local church, there are legitimate reasons why a secular event might have been held there. I mean, I vote at our local Baptist church; doesn't really bother me, it's not like I'm being hit up for anything religious by going to their conference room, which is rented out to all kinds of folks.

I get your concern. Just find out what you can through channels, keep the kid out of it, like other folks have already opined.

[HelenWheels]

115. Then she should have been much less informative

something to the effect that Jesus was a man that many believe lived a long time ago that did good things and followed it with a request that the student ask their parents for more detail. But to state it as a fact that this mythical being is watching you is creepy and may be terrifying to children of freethinkers.

[NeedleCast]

75. I'd let her parents know

If they want to address it, they can.

I don't think, as some have suggested, that "flipping out" on the teacher is going to be the right move. However, I would be concerned if her class was taking "field trips" to a local church without the parents being aware (although they might be aware).

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

102. Tell your son and his wife about this. They are the ones who have to take action if they

wish to. Personally I believe that teacher should get into hot water over this. This teacher crossed the line between the separation of church and state.

[cherokeeprogressive]

103. Talk to your son, then let him make his own decisions about how he wants his children schooled.

If it doesn't bother him, then let the matter drop. My parents didn't think we were being forceful enough in disciplining our daughter. It caused them to miss three out of her first five years, and I didn't feel bad about it at ALL. Let him and his wife decide what's right for your granddaughter.

If it does bother him, let HIM deal with it. Counsel him in how to proceed if you think you must, but let him deal with it himself. As an administrator, I'd not put much weight in the protestations of grandparents unless they're the legal guardian of the child.

When your granddaughter said "I've been there", why did you automatically tell her she hadn't?

[madmom]

117. I didn't tell her that, her dad did,probably because they have only lived in

this town about 6 months and the family had not gone there.

[cherokeeprogressive]

133. I misread that part. Apologies.

I still think it's her father's place to go to the school with his concerns though.

[chrisa]

129. It was probably an accident.

Some people just assume that everybody is Christian. I highly doubt it was some foaming at the mouth fundie.

[mountainvue]

131. Children enrolled in public school should

not randomly be taken to a church.

[seabeyond]

135. what if it is a bake sale, or a pumpkin patch to buy pumpkins or any other

number of things these buildings are used for that has nothing to do with religion?

or just the site of a church enough to convert or offend?

[gollygee]

138. If they're taken off the school property at all, even just to a park next door

the parents have to fill out a permission slip. So hopefully the parents are already aware that the child was at the church. But if the teacher took them off the school property without a permission slip, then the teacher needs to be talked to regardless of where the kids were taken.

[seabeyond]

143. beginning of school year they fill out form giving permission to go on field trips

they no longer send them out with each field trip cause too many parents werent sending those back to school, leaving kids behind, then meeting with a parents outrage that kid didnt get to go and participate.

if a parent has a problem and does not trust the school on these field trips, then they had better think long and hard before putting their john hancock down.

i have never had an issue with any of my boys schools. and if things did come up, we talked about it. another opportunity to discuss

[madmom]

148. I would think the school/teacher would

1. at the time they are going remind the parents they are going 2. tell them what kind of field trips they will be taking during the year.

[seabeyond]

149. they dont. or i havent gotten anything. soemtimes if they need a lunch or money. n/t

[seabeyond]

153. have to put valentine party together, but on thought. more maybes and dont know

maybe they did send a note and in folder. maybe mom knew and dad didnt.

again, you cant (well you can) make these assumptions, nor me, cause we dont know. so again, even going off my experience, i have always missed things in kids folders, didnt check folders ro kid left in locker..... or lost paper.

[madmom]

159. You say don't assume, but you keep doing it!

[seabeyond]

163. guesses is not assuming. deciding that evil happened without knowledge is assuming. n/t

[madmom]

180. Here you are ASSUMING that I have decided that "evil happened"

If I had decided that I would not have asked for advice I would be at school whooping ass!

[gollygee]

150. I have to fill a separate one out for every field trip n/t

[Orrex]

169. Parents are still given an outline of what field trips are scheduled, especially with younger kids

You think that a permission slip at the beginning of the year gives the school carte blanche to take the kids wherever they want at any time thereafter? Are you serious?

For the record, my son's school requires a permission slip for each field trip, and we knew what and when the field trips would be before the school year started.

i have never had an issue with any of my boys schools. and if things did come up, we talked about it. another opportunity to discuss

That's a red herring, and I would hope that you know it.

[seabeyond]

171. well, since putting son in public in second grade i have known about some trips and not

known about many. that is all i can say about that. personal experience.

carte blanche, no, i have never seen the school adopt carte blanche nor have i seen the schools my kids go to over step the line. again, personal experience, i cannot go with anything else

and to say that i address what goes on in the boys school in all manners, all angles, all subjects adn events and see them as opportunity for learning and growth as a red herring...

well, your opinion, lol, not mine. i see it as significant. but then you are allowed your opinion as i am allowed mine.

[madmom]

145. see post #35

[madmom]

142. If it were because of these things the parents would have known about that the day it happened,

she comes homes with a token or guess what we did today and relate the story.

[seabeyond]

146. do you know? cause i dont know what you know on this subject

i dont know if soemthing "bad" has happened with info you give.

parents signed a paper ok the field trips. if they dont trust the school, then they should state they do not want her to go on field trips. i do not know what the situation was, so i cannot give an opinion

[madmom]

151. My son related the incident about the church, obviously he didn't know anything about it.

If they sign a general permission slip the teacher should 1. remind parents when it is going to happen and 2. tell them at the beginning of the year where they will be going through out the year.

[seabeyond]

155. what did he say happened at the church? is he bothered about it? n/t

[madmom]

160. Nothing HAPPENED at the church....

"Also he told me a while back about an incident where they were driving by a church right beside the school and she said "I've been there" and he told her she hadn't and she said yes I have with my school! "

That was in the original post.

I felt he was bothered by it or he wouldn't have brought it up.

[seabeyond]

165. something happened at church. they went there. they went there for a reason

i am confused. i am done. wish you the best with this and hope everything works out well and is cleared up to alls satisfaction

[madmom]

181. They were driving past the church she stated she had been there, he said no you haven't,

she said yes I was with my school. If the school took her there for some reason I do not know.

[mountainvue]

161. Why couldn't these events be held on the school

grounds? Certainly, the school district is aware of the conflict of this scenario.
While I don't agree with you, I admire you trying to present another side of this argument.
And yes, a five year old is just impressionable enough to be converted or offended by the sight of a church. They just don't know it. That is why we have to trust in those whose care we place them.

[seabeyond]

167. i dont agree with you either

but certainly appreciative for your approach. lol

churches will have these things to raise money but to the person that is not a part of the church it is no more than a bake sale or pumpkin patch buy. it happens in our area all the time. i dont know what happened at the church. i am sure it was not sittin down to a sermon. i can swear it wasnt, and i wasnt there. as much as i can swear to something that i wasnt there for

i live in such a fundie place

i hear the left yell about keep god out of school (which i advocate) but i have had no issues with the three public schools kids are in. all aware and they work hard at doing it right.

i hear the right yell.... get prayer back in school and i say what... prayer wasnt in school during my time in 60's and not when my father went to school in 40's

so i dont know

this wasnt a big deal, what part the kid added, exactly what teacher is responsible for, what was happening that brought it in... i just dont see anything.... YET.

[Soylent Brice]

147. "jesus was a man that died a long time ago and was always watching her because he loved her"

to me, that sounds like the wrong message is being portrayed. it almost sounds like that can be misconstrued to think it's okay to trust pedophiles.

the man that watches you loves you.

*ick*

they shouldn't be having religious discussions with kids in public shool, period.

[Greyhound]

154. Yes you should definitely talk to her parents to let them know what is being done to their kid.

After that, I suppose you have step back and let them handle it or not as they choose.

That'll be $.02.

[peacetalksforall]

164. It's wrong because it assumes. It assumes that all the children are Christain.

Even if all the children are Christain, a public school should be secular or call it universal. Learning about the love of Jesus is what Sunday Schools are for.

It plants the idea that only a Christian Jesus can be loved. It causes confusion with other children.
\
It is the same thing as telling everyone that they can't go to heaven if they are not born again (implying in a Christian Church).

This upset me when I was a child and now more so because of the abuses, assumptions, intrusions, and the arrogance of it.

I hope the problem is only this teacher and you it can be resolved. If I were the parent I would very politely ask, confirm, discuss, then state where the line should be drawn. And take it from there.

[anonymous171]

166. You should probably say something. Public School is not the place for proselytizing nt

[DavidDvorkin]

174. I think you need to protest this loudly

Tell your son. If he doesn't take action, do so yourself. You might contact the Freedom from Religion Foundation.

[dawgmom]

178. Absolutely, positively 100% you should intervene

Religious education has no place in the public schools. This needs to be investigated, to see if the information came from the teacher. If so, the school needs to remind the teacher that she/he is teaching at a PUBLIC school, not a parochial school. (Of course, it's also possible that she heard this from another child, in which case, I don't think there's an issue. Hearing it from another child is just part of the socialization process. Hearing it from a teacher makes it FACT in the mind of a child.)

As for the visit to the church that your son didn't know about, I'd be checking into what kind of field trips his kid is being taken on, without his knowledge and consent.

[earth mom]

179. If it was me, I'd be livid & would have been on the phone to the school district in a nano second.

Give those fundie nutcases an inch and they will take a mile.

It's a public school and ANY kind of religion does NOT belong there and the fundies need to understand that or get the hell out.