Chechen leader imposes strict brand of Islam (Explains why women with "loose morals" deserved to be

[cali]

shot)

The Associated PressPublished: February 28, 2009


GROZNY, Russia: The bullnecked president of Chechnya emerged from afternoon prayers at the mosque and with chilling composure explained why seven young women who had been shot in the head deserved to die.

Ramzan Kadyrov said the women, whose bodies were found dumped by the roadside, had "loose morals" and were rightfully shot by male relatives in honor killings.

"If a woman runs around and if a man runs around with her, both of them are killed," Kadyrov told journalists in the capital of this Russian republic.

The 32-year-old former militia leader is carrying out a campaign to impose Islamic values and strengthen the traditional customs of predominantly Muslim Chechnya, in an effort to blunt the appeal of hardline Islamic separatists and shore up his power. In doing so, critics say, he is setting up a dictatorship where Russian laws do not apply.

<snip>

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2009/02/28/europe/EU-Russia-Ruling-Chechnya.php

[izzie]

1. And the men that ran around with these women? The bodies ?

Nice to be able to put down the people with no power in a society. Makes these men feel good I guess. I never did understand why, even in this country, a man could beat his wife and not a thing was done to him, but if he hit a man on the street he was put in jail. Then why should I be shocked. Did not even our own society own people. Sure is hard to move one in this world and get rid of these old ways of thinking.

[TWiley]

2. Not much different than Christian values at the end of the day.

[cali]

4. baloney. first of all, these aren't Islamic values, but a twisted

version of them, just as some fundamentalist xian sects are twisted versions of christianity. secondly, whether you like it or not, the fact remains that christianity worldwide does not have the same level of problems re women that Islam unfortunately does. The body count of women and the oppression of women under Islam is on a whole other level from that of christianity.

[Smith_3]

6. If you count the women that died in Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam...

...due to the invasion of a "christian" military, the body count of women produced by christianity is higher.

[Sultana]

8. Oh wow, stay on topic

Were they killed for being "loose women" or were they killed because of greed from certain gov'ts such as the US, G. Br. etc...?

[cali]

9. christian military? absurd.

look, I'm hardly defending the ugly record of imperialism, but that's not the issue here. The issue is cultural/religious practices that oppress women. And though theoretically, christianity can be as oppressive as Islam, practically speaking, Islam and local cultural practices fused with Islam, are terribly oppressive toward women in a way that christianity just doesn't match. And that is not a defense of christianity or a slam at Islam. It simply is what it is.

Claiming that Christianity has anything to do with the deaths of women in Iraq, Afghanistan or Vietnam is ridiculous. Imperialism, greed, oil, etc, are the proper villains in those cases.

[TWiley]

22. oh really?

You have missed an important part of American History and Christian Missionaryism. Teddy Roosevelt even made reference to the white, christian warriors and their place in his world view.

Slavery in the Bible Belt, the genocidal attack upon Native Americans, and just about every racist war in our lifetime has been supported by a majority of the faithful.

See a catholic priestess anywhere? Expect a female pope anytime soon? How many fundamentalists really love single mothers and adultresses? Oops, the bible says we should stone them to death, and we must believe the literal reading of the bible.

Christianity has a whole lot to do with the deaths of women in Iraq. Many fundamentalist Christians hate the muslims and wish the war to never end.

Contemporary mainstream Christianity has done very little to advance the cause of women. It has consistantly been opposed to it. The only advances that have been made are the result of public pressure, and the reduction in tithes.

Contemporary evangelical Christianity and the Military? Read here:

http://www.truthout.org/article/report-pentagon-facilitating-christian-evangelism

[deaniac21]

23. Truthout? Can you bring up the Karl Rove indictment story?

[TWiley]

24. Dont trust truthout? Here, try these links

http://www.au.org/site/News2?abbr=pr&page=NewsArticle&id=7503
http://www.cmfhq.org/
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
http://atheism.about.com/b/2007/10/14/our-christian-military-pentagon-facilitated-christian-evangelism.htm
http://eldib.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/report-pentagon-facilitating-christian-evangelism/

[cali]

42. actually, I haven't missed it, dear.

I'm probably better versed in that segment of AmHist than you. I have a MA in Millennial Studies, and much of my focus was on American Millenialism. But your claims are pretty specious. In fact, they're hugely specious. Try and back up your crap about Christianity being responsible for the deaths of women in Iraq with credible links. You'll be searching for a good long time. The deaths in Iraq are due to imperialism, greed and oil. Christianity had jack shit to do with the invasion.

Oh, Leopold's article does not back up your claim. And it's hardly the place to start with xian influences in the U.S. military.

[TWiley]

49. Then, you take the lead.

Tell me about the Christian influences in the U.S. Military. Didn't you just say they did not exist?

[deaniac21]

53. Leopold has 0 credibility.

[etherealtruth]

12. So .....

A terrible history justifies this? Christian's (actually, innumerable atrocities have occurred in the name of most religions)bad actions justifies anyone atrocity in the name of some real or imagined religious cause.

Give me a break.

[TWiley]

28. Right you are ... interesting that a fundamentalist christian posted this thread.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tangent90]

15. You can bet 'christian' domionists are highly envious of muslim clerics who have the power

they do in some places. They would love to be in the same relative position.

[cali]

16. uh, so what?

they're not, and the chances that they will be, are slim. Some of you are literally incapable of accepting any criticism of any culture or religion other than western culture and christianity. it's knee jerk absurd.

[tangent90]

19. Apparently you thought I was defending radical Islam...I was most certainly not.

I despise fundamentalists regardless of how they spell the names of their imaginary deities.

[cali]

20. nope. didn't think that. thought that you were throwing in a red herring

and a very stale one at that.

[sufrommich]

21. They don't have the "same relative position" so what is

your point? Don't minimize this demented violence against women by comparing it to the the violence you imagine. It's real and needs to be addressed in more serious ways than stupidly sputtering comparisons that don't exist.

[Swede]

10. Yeah,the women's bodies are piling up in the USA.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

[TWiley]

26. end abortion like the Christians want, and watch them pile up

[Swede]

29. Obama is a Christian,I guess he's gonna end abortion.

You are broadbrushing millions of Americans.

[TWiley]

40. hmm

http://www.truthout.org/article/report-pentagon-facilit...

[cali]

45. Sorry, that's not happening. It didn't happen under bush and

it certainly won't be happening under Obama. Look, the facts don't support you. Christianity does not currently have the record of oppression of women you wish to attribute to it.

[TwilightGardener]

11. Really, now. That's just stupid, and you know it.

[seabeyond]

17. bash christianity at all cost, even sounding stupid. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

25. Religion is religion. Same shit, different name.

[Mudoria]

33. To you perhaps, not to all

[BlooInBloo]

35. Thanks for providing an excellent example. All religious people disagree with me on that.

[liberalsince1968]

51. ITA...it's a difference of degree, not in kind.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

63. I refer you to the parable of the woman taken in adultery.

To be fair, this isn't even that representetive of the values of most Muslims (although it's far less unusual for Muslims than for Christians).

[muriel_volestrangler]

3. Though the article points out Kadyrov may be using that to cover up his murders

done for other reasons:

Estemirova said two of the women were married, with two children each. Their husbands held large funerals and buried them in the family plot, which would not have happened if the women had disgraced their families, she said.

Kadyrov's version also has been contradicted by federal prosecutors in Moscow, who have concluded relatives were not involved. No arrests have been made and the investigation is continuing. Kadyrov's office refused to comment on the investigators' conclusion.

The Moscow newspaper Novaya Gazeta reported that some of the women worked in brothels frequented by Kadyrov's men. Many Chechens say they suspect the women were killed in a police operation. The truth of the killings may never be known, given how much Kadyrov is feared.

[gratuitous]

14. Other reasons?

You mean Kadryov might be lying to justify murdering? And using religious language and motifs, knowing that it will cut off some people's inquiries while creating a diversion for others? And the motive behind these murders wasn't religious at all, but was a cynical manipulation designed to fool gullible types who would be satisfied to just lump all "religious" people together and make blanket statements of smug superiority when in reality they're just being led by the nose by a liar and a killer?

Wow, who would fall for that?

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. About 90% of DU, judging by this thread (nt)

[gratuitous]

61. Shhhhh

It looks like they're having fun.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. Another great example of why not all cultures and religions should be accommodated

[TXRAT2]

18. Agree

[TWiley]

27. Maybe we shoud look at radical christian factions as well

These domestic terrorists are the largest threat our nation faces. I am talking about the Christian Identity, KKK, Neo-Nazi, and survivalist types.

[tanngrisnir3]

31. They ARE being looked at. The FBI and BATF have special units...

dedicated exclusively to monitoring/infiltrating such groups.

[TWiley]

36. They are not being surveilled close enough to suit me

Those guys are dangerous religious whack jobs. They are more of a threat than Al Queda or the Taliban.

[tanngrisnir3]

43. No, they have no track record like Al-queda or the Taliban

If it's not to your satisfaction, try calling the FBI/US Marshalls/BATF and requesting they do more.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

32. Really, Quakers are the biggest domestic terror threat?

[TWiley]

37. Red Herring caught by a Straw Man anyone?

who said anything about Quakers except YOU? Now, go argue with yourself.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. Quakers are radical Christians...those who you are calling radical xtians are neither

radical nor xtian

[cali]

46. they are hardly the biggest threat to our nation

They've been marginalized big time over the past decade or two. Corrupt bankers and money people are a far bigger threat.

[TWiley]

52. Well, I would have to agree with that one.

But when it comes to bombings, and that type of thing, I think the radical christian right has it all over the bankers. There is a resurgance in these groups btw. Time will tell if it reaches the level that it did when Bill Clinton was president. These types dont like democratic administrations.

[slackmaster]

66. Yup, this brand of Islam should not be tolerated anywhere

:nuke:

[geek tragedy]

13. But I thought Russia was a democracy!?

:sarcasm:

[cbc5g]

34. don't worry, it's a religion of peace

Just like Christianity has been the last few thousand years as well. So so peaceful.


Oxymoron, I know.

[JerseygirlCT]

38. You probably need to learn a bit more about both, then.

You're looking at an extreme, fundamentalist sect of Islam - not at all representative of Islam in general.

You can find similarly perverted sects in Christianity or any religion. And history is full of examples of man's inhumanity to man, and especially to women - not all of it based on religion.

This sort of simplistic dismissal only exposes a lack of understanding. I'd just say: beware of black and white thinking - it almost always leads to skewed conclusions.

[TWiley]

39. Kind of like the OP huh?

no mention of radical islam there .....

[JerseygirlCT]

41. ???

I don't understand what you're trying to say at all. Mind expanding on that?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

44. So......

If someone posted a similar story about "radical Christianity" committing such human rights violations, I'm sure you'd jump in with a retort about how "radical Islam" does the same things, correct? You sound like a "fair and balanced" person.

Right?

[cali]

47. excuse me?

I simply posted a story verbatim, genius. I expressed no opinion in the OP. I did, however make it crystal clear in another post in this thread that this kind of oppression is a perversion of Islam and that it happens in Christianity as well.

Despicable and dishonest as always, I see. Don't you go changin'.

[MellowDem]

48. It's Sunday...

Which DU has agreed is Christian Hate day. Hurry, get in for your 2 minutes! Show how ignorant and intolerant you can be!

[cali]

54. I'm unconvinced that it's about hating christianity so much as it

is about political correctness re Islam taken to an absurd place.

[opihimoimoi]

59. As usual, Cali, you right on....Extremism has its Price...usually Negative Mode

Notice how President Obama overcame his Funny Name, his color, and his relative "Inexperience?"???

The Message was stronger than the rest.....

He played the Conservative Mode....and won at their own game of bait and switch. The Pubs like to talk but cannot walk ...their actions/results are appalling...the cost to the Nation/People is very high...into Overboard.

President Obama embodies POSITIVENESS...he has a LOCK on it... therm Pubs are trapped in the Negativity which got them where they are today....meaning....they are outdated, out spent, obtuse, out witted.

President OBAMA IS PRICELESS...he was the FIRST to embrace TRUTH< REASON< & SANITY......among others of which the PUBs are unable to grasp and ingest....

[TWiley]

64. Absolutely wrong. Both religions condemn female promiscuity

Both religons condemn female promiscuity, esepcially single mothers, adultresses, and lesbians. The holy text of both religons call for execution due to violation of their code. Women have been recently stoned to death by christians in Africa for suspected adultery, and it is not uncommon for women accused of infidelity to be bitten by a poisonous snake in eastern WVA, KY, and Tn right here in the USA. You see, they must handle them to prove they are innocent if they are accused.

You take the extremists to make the case against Islam. The extreme Christians are actually no better in my opinion. At the end of the day, both of their values (Islam and christianity) are really not that far apart if looking at either the mainstream, or radical interpretations.

How about a little full disclosure on your part cali, have you accepted Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, and do you consider yourself a born-again Christian?

Remember, Jesus is watching, and he expects your full answer.

[cali]

65. Are you responding to the post you meant to respond to?

I said exactly nothing in the post you responded to about what you're going on about. I made an observation that some people here tend to lose it when Islam is any way criticized and go on a tangent about how Christianity is just as bad or worse.

You are a perfect example of it. And no matter what kind of silly and spurious comparisons you clumsily attempt to make, facts are stubborn things. And the fact is that no "Christian" nation abides by the laws in the old testament re women- or practically anything else for that matter. And yes, it's damned well uncommon for women in the US to be forced to handle poisonous snakes to prove they're innocent of adultery.

As for my religious beliefs, they are, of course, none of your frackin' business. However, just because it amuses me that you are, as ususal, about as wrong as could be, here ya go:

I'm a Buddhist. Specifically, I'm a follower of Chogyam Trungpa and have taken both Refuge and Bodhisattva vows at Karme Choling. So, sorry, I haven't accepted anyone as my personal savior, and that includes Jesus.

And for the third time: I've made it clear that I don't blame Islam as a whole for the perversion of Islam by radicals. Stop twisting what I've said. It's predictable, but no less repulsive for that. And yes, of course, radical xians are deplorable. What you fail to acknowledge is that in REAL FUCKING LIFE, radical christianity hasn't the impact on women's lives that radical Islam does. And it's becoming clear that you don't give a damn about the suffering of those women, only about pushing your own pathetic agenda.

[TWiley]

67. wow, I used to respect Buddhists. Thank you for the education.

[cali]

68. lol. because you don't like me, you've now lost all respect for Buddhists?

too funny and too predictable. I love the comedic value you add to any thread.

[tanngrisnir3]

69. Awwww.... Jesus didn't want you for a sunbeam?

[truebrit71]

56. Yeah, because Robertson and Falwell and their ilk are so enlightened right?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....:eyes:

[cali]

58. Falwell is dead. Robertson's power waned and

the xian right has never had a history in this country of successfully LEGALLY oppressing women. In fact, a lot of their frothing is precisely because of their impotence.

[truebrit71]

60. Yeah, that whole "pro-life" thing has nothing to do with legally oppressing women...

...

[cali]

62. did you miss the word successfully? Has Roe been overturned?

Have there been laws passed that oppress women? Uh, grab a clue and stop giving power to the wingnut xians that they don't have.

[truebrit71]

55. I despise religious extremists...ALL religious extremists...

..or do you think that the rabid xtian wing-nuts in this country wouldn't salivate at an opportunity to impose their "morals" on the rest of us?

[cali]

57. Fantasy vs Reality.

The reality is that women are not oppressed under twisted versions of Christianity the way that they are under twisted versions of Islam. The reality is that millions of women are severely oppressed under Islam. The reality is that women die everyday because of twisted versions of Islam. I'm more concerned with reality than the unattainable dememted fever dreams of rabid wingnut xians.