Protect your food. Fight the National Animal Identification System (NAIS.)

[demodonkey]

The National Animal ID is a gift to the factory farming industry, because it would effectively destroy competition from small family farm operations.

This costly program would make small-scale farming prohibitively expensive and would make it difficult to keep and transport even horses other recreational animals. It will require every small farmer to place an RFID chip in every animal they own -- cow, pig, sheep, even chickens and a kid's pet pony -- and report all animal movements to the United States Department of Agriculture within 24 hours. Records will have to be kept for 20 years, with GPS satellite coordinates of the location of each farm being kept in a giant database controlled by private, for-profit companies.

The RFID technology is not proven in many species of animal, and the costs and regulation snafus will drive many if not most small-scale family farmers out of business, meaning no more locally-grown and sustainable milk, meat, and eggs.

If you support local, sustainable agriculture and a truly safe food supply, FIGHT NAIS.

The USDA will be accepting comments until March 16, 2009. Go HERE to comment:
http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main?main=DocketDetail&d=APHIS-2007-0096


Go here to take the pledge to fight NAIS.
http://food.change.org/actions/view/tell_the_usda_i_oppose_the_national_animal_id_system

[csziggy]

1. This is the same USDA that fights inspection of slaughterhouses?

And stopped some companies from doing their own inspections? This is nuts!

As a horse owner, I would love to be able to chip my horses in case they are stolen or get loose. But my priorities right now are making sure they get the proper feed, farrier, and vet care and that is a stretch this year.

Requiring that farmers chip every animal is useless unless ever creature transported any where in the US and inside states are scanned for a chip. Now, many animals found wandering are not scanned so how can we expect all animals transported to be?

[demodonkey]

2. These chips won't help recover lost animals. But make sure you report the loss to USDA within 24 hrs

...or you will face a big fine and maybe jail time. You better know and report where your animals are at all times, so they can track you down in less than 48 hours in case of a disease "outbreak". We must do this to fight disease. Or so that's the claim.

Right now it's still voluntary to join NAIS in most states, but there are efforts underway to make it mandatory nationally. (And funding in the new 2009 Budget Bill to implement it, but farmers and animal owners will be on their own to buy the chips, scanners, and record-keeping stuff.)

:scared:

[jody]

3. Under NAIS, Animals Not Needing Identification

Animals Not Needing Identification

Animal identification is recommended for animals that move into commerce or marketing channels.

Recommended:
• Animals that are moved from their farm, ranch, or boarding facility to locations where they "commingle", or come into contact with, animals from multiple/other locations (Examples include -livestock auctions, feedlots, or fairs)

NOT Recommended:
• Animals that never leave their farm, ranch, or boarding facility, even if they move from pasture to pasture within that location
• Animals that never leave their farm, ranch, or boarding facility other than when they "get out"
• Animals that are moved directly from the farm or ranch where they were born to custom slaughter

[demodonkey]

5. Horrible Regulations

If I take a horse on a trail ride over to my next-door neighbor's farm, the horse needs ID for the rest of its life.

If I sell a chicken I hatched to the old lady down the road so she can raise some eggs, the chicken needs ID for the rest of its life.

If I buy a feeder calf from the farmer over the hill, the calf needs ID for the rest of its life.

We'll all have to pay for the chips and the scanners for these animals, and deal with record-keeping and paperwork on all these "animal movements." All of our properties will be tagged with a "Premises ID" and GPS tracked forever because the Premises ID becomes attached to the land no matter who owns it.

NAIS is a horrible violation of the 4th Amendment, and in some cases religious freedom as well. And the sad thing is that WE DON'T NEED IT -- proven animal health programs that we already have have kept these "diseases" adequately under control since the USA began. NAIS is simply to line the pockets of vendors of RFID equipment and Big Ag.

[jody]

8. Agree! I grew up on a farm and own a small working farm. I am fed up with USDA intrusion into

farming with policies that help four businesses, i.e. "In the U.S., four companies produce 81 percent of cows, 73 percent of sheep, 57 percent of pigs and 50 percent of chickens."

[Grinchie]

31. Agree. It's a scary test for further use on humans as well.

We must stop this NAIS. People that have never stepped on a farm don't have a clue how terrible the burden would be on the Small Farmer.

Perhaps we should see some meaningful banking regulations, GMO food ingrediants labeled, Mad Cow testing for every animal that enters the food chain, and Country of Origin implemented before Bush and his cronies railroad NAIS down our throats.

[seafan]

4. Carlyle Group RFID Technologies is pushing this. First , China. Now, the US.

Link


And this doesn't even mention the infinite number of little RFID tracking chips to place on all the items we import from China and other countries, arriving on container ships stacked to the brim. Keeping those inexpensive goods coming to the US from poor working people in foreign nations really helps pad the old Bush Family Carlyle coffers, no?


(Not so) Funny how it all benefits the Bush Family, is it not?

[northernlights]

6. Horse owners -- not just an i.d., pet owners -- you are next

Under NAIS you must report every time your horse leaves your property. So if you go on a trail ride, report it. If you go next door to use your neighbor's arena, report it. If you go to a horse show, report it.

Another tiny fact that isn't widely known is the supposed "disease fighting" aspect of it. If there is a disease outbreak and you live with some specified radius of the farm with the outbreak, the USDA will come, nicely dressed in their biohazard suits, and they will kill your horses.

This is no joke. This is no different than when they had an outbreak of hoof and mouth in the UK a few years back, and went to various farmer's properties, forcibly restrained the farmers and slaughtered and burned all their livestock. Several farmers committed suicide after.

The bill was written by the FACTORY FARMS and the MICROCHIP COMPANIES, for the Factory Farms and Microchip Companies. And the rumors in the horse industry at least are that dogs, cats, and other household pets are next.

[jody]

9. Remember the movie "Hud" with Paul Newman, life imitates art. n/t

[Wiley50]

13. If Horses get it I guess so do demodonkys

OK demodonkey up against the wall and spread 'em

But, seriously, RFID is the Devil's Tool regardless of application

Already some people are getting them voluntarily

Soon to be mandatory

[Grinchie]

33. The Factory Farms are the source of the Avian Influenza

But they work very hard to blame it on wild birds.

All outbreaks have occurred in areas that had CAFO's nearby, and it is believed that the workers tracked it out into the environment from the filthy, overmedicated poultry barns.

This is a major scam to take energy away from GMO scrutiny, and profit a few big corporations while removing our rights to grow whatever the hell we want.

[dropkickpa]

43. Oh come on now

You don't report your movements as you make them, that's just being really overdramatic and silly. As of right now, the equine working group recommendations state this about movement reporting:

http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/naislibrary/documents/plans_reports/ESWG_Recommendations_August_1_2006.pdf

Equine movements will not be reported. In the event traceback is needed, animal health
officials will rely on the current system of maintaining brand inspection records, Certificates
of Veterinary Inspection, VS 127 permits that are kept on file at the appropriate brand or
state office or on the International Certificates of Veterinary Inspection that are currently
recorded by APHIS VS. States and USDA are encouraged to move these forms into an
electronic format to expedite retrieval.

I know, I know, not *nearly* as dramatic as your opening statement, sorry.

ALL horses sold are required to have documentation of their coggins testing, but you can be damn sur it doesn't happen. Breeders, show riders, competition riders, etc are NOTORIOUS for fudging and neglecting to complete the required health testing before selling or transporting their horses. Equine infectious anemia is no fucking joke. I've taken care of and had to euth a horse with it, and fuck anyone who thinks the testing and requirements for testing are overboard. EIA is transmitted from horse to horse via horsefly, so tracking an infected horse's movements from farm to farm, arena to arena, or though multiple people's lands, IS important. I'm all for chipping horses, permanant ID, a database with health records accessable, it'll make horse selling a more honest business, and it'll make humane enforcement a fuck-load easier, too. Your name's registered to the chip, you are responsible for the well being of that animal, end of discussion, no more "It's not my horse blahblahblah".

[northernlights]

50. um, exactly WHERE did I write that current Coggins regs go overboard?!?

Thank you for putting words in my keyboard.

And I'm glad the NAIS regulations have been changed, because just a couple years ago they required ALL movements of ALL animals covered under NAIS be reported.

I'm fully aware of the devastating effects of EIA, seeing as my family had to put down a horse about 4 decades ago, when the Coggins test had only just been introduced and wasn't yet a requirement at most places. I'm well aware that horse flies are the vector -- including that horse flies travel for all of 1/4 mile.

I also know that the Coggins requirement has been extremely effective in reducing the incidence of the disease, which was a scourge....about 40 years ago. It is extremely rare these days and has been very well controlled. I'm sorry you lost a horse to EIA, but it does sporadically occur. That's life with horses...and as you know, they are far more likely to colic, founder, break a leg or have about a million other things cause their deaths. The list is long before it hits EIA.

Personally I'd rather risk the extremely unlikely event of my horse getting bitten by an infected horsefly than be forced to microchip my backyard horses, not to mention face having them killed on the off chance that they may have been bitten by an infected horse fly from 1/4 mile away.

And I know that I am not alone when I say that I very much resent the way the horse breed organizations, commerical breeding operations and horse show professionals have shoved their fucking problems down my throat, claiming to represent all horse owners when in fact they represent only themselves. I'm so sorry that people in your industry are so disreputable as to forge Coggins documentation, but frankly that's your fucking problem, not mine.

The "voluntary" aspects of NAIS are bogus as well. Some horse owners reported being contacted to do "surveys," and then the information from their surveys was put into the 1st stage NAIS (register your farm) system, without their knowledge or permission. That was about 3 years ago, as I recall.

The bottom line is that NAIS rules were written by and for factory farmers and chip companies, and they have nothing to do with protecting horseowners. They were specifically intended to make US beef appear safer so more would be sold overseas, following the mad cow scare and now the avian flu scare. And I am not alone in resenting people like you shoving your shit down my throat.

[dropkickpa]

52. People like me

Lovely.

I didn't personally lose a horse, I worked in an equine hospital when I got to see the case I referred to, and that horse was lost because a woman's neighbor had purchased a horse through a classified ad and didn't follow state law and get all of the required testing done. I've seen first hand, not just in equine health, but livestock health, how important tracking of animals is.

There's a shitload of horse selling going on all over where state law is not being followed on health requirements. Visit craigslist sometime, horses are for sale all the time, and I'm willing to bet very few of those transactions follow state law for health requirements, and there are many more such things going on all over the country. It's nowhere near as isolated as *you* seem to think it is. A horse that's had a positive test coggin's doesn't have to be euth'd, if it's quarantined and contained, etc., but selling that horse or a horse from that quarantines farm without proper disclosure is fucked and morally reprehensible. And it happens. Being able to track, via rfid chip, would allow prosecutions of the guilty parties to go forward.

How is it that, as a dog owner, I am required to license my dog (and, as such, have my residence and number of dogs known) but the high and mighty horse owners are somehow exempt?

[Yellow Horse]

59. People like you want to regulate yourself out of a job???

There will be a lot fewer equine hospitals available for you to work in if NAIS becomes mandatory, believe me. Or maybe you don't care about anybody else's job because you don't work there anymore?

There will be a lot fewer tack shops, farriers, horse trailer businesses, etc. etc. etc. A LOT FEWER.

And while we are talking know this: NAIS won't do squat to make people get their horses Coggins tests, shots, or anything else like that. Nothing at all to PREVENT equine infectious anemia or anything else. Nada. Zip. Zilch. The only thing NAIS will do (supposedly, if it works at all) is it will allow USDA to trace back to animals AFTER disease has been found (maybe not even a horse diseaase), so they can round up all the healthy OR sick animals within a certain radius and kill them. And add a lot of costs and paperwork that drive people out of the horse business and away from owning or enjoying horses.

This is such a no-brainer. NAIS is no good for anyone except chip manufacturers and companies like Monsanto.

[dropkickpa]

60. And they'll take away our babies

and our TVs and blahblahblah. Now you are just ranting.

[Yellow Horse]

62. No, I am not the one who is ranting. NAIS will NOT help prevent disease.

And I never mentioned babies and TVs.

[dropkickpa]

64. So I'd lose my job how?

Dog licensing and chipping has not driven vet clinics or pet supply stores out of business, how the fuck would it do that to equine hospitals and tack stores?

You are ranting and raving. With each post you start adding on more and more outlandish claims as to what will happen, I was just trying to help you out and further your paranoia.

[Yellow Horse]

68. If you can't figure out how, I can't help you.

Microchipping dogs is not REQUIRED anywhere as far as I know. If people choose to do it on an optional basis (and can afford to do so) goody for them. Dog licenses are mandatory in most places but dog licenses do not cost anywhere near what the NAIS program will cost horse owners. Furthermore dogs to not have to be tracked, reported, and records sent to the USDA every time they leave your property.

Owning a dog does not mean that satellite coordinates as to your property's location will be kept on file in a government database. Owning a horse will, under NAIS.

Times are hard, and a lot of horse owners in my area are already cutting back on their breeding, showing, purchase of new animals, and other activities. My own equine vet tells me she has 40 clients wanting to literally give horses away right now if they could get them a good home -- before NAIS has fully taken effect. Many horse people I have spoken with tell me NAIS will be the final straw for them. If it goes through and becomes mandatory they say they will sell out altogether. They can't afford the expense and they don't want Big Brother government watching their satellite coordinates in some database.

These are not "outlandish claims." THESE ARE FACTS.

If clients of the vet you work for start selling out in response to NAIS, meaning no more horses for them, it will naturally mean lost work and revenue. If you don't think that threatens your job as the employee of an equine vet, well, then YOU are the one who sounds foolish.

[northernlights]

95. Well, I'm sorry you saw a horse lost to EIA....and

since you worked in a vet hospital, then I'm sure you understand that:

1. The Coggins exam has gone a long way to reducing the incidence of EIA. Of over a million Coggins exams performed each year, with only about 500 positive tests annually.

2. Because of the success of the Coggins program, it is not a disease targeted for eradication by the USDA, on the recommendation of veterinarians and horse owners

3. Horses and horse people are *always* at risk of injury or death due to other, less responsible horse people.

4. It is NOT a disease targeted by NAIS.

The diseases targeted by NAIS are either:

1. a threat to the food industry
2. zoonotic

EIA is neither, and your argument based on EIA is specious.

[bbgrunt]

7. this is an abomination.

[Daemonaquila]

10. It's worse than that.

They'd like people who do wild animal rehabilitation to do the same. This would put an end to a lot of wildlife rescue.

[demodonkey]

11. Don't just squawk on DU. Go to this link & COMMENT. Noone from DU has commented since I posted this.

http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main?main=DocketDetail&d=APHIS-2007-0096

Tell the USDA that you don't want your tax dollars spent for a foolish program that will "protect" u s by driving our honest family farmers out of business and violating the US Constitution.

PLEASE -- Take three minutes and DU THIS NOW!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

12. You might have a point if this were mandatory.

But it's not. It's voluntary. It doesn't *require* you to do anything. You can decide to participate or not.

[Yellow Horse]

16. Yes you can "decide" to participate -- for now. But it soon WILL be mandatory if we don't fight it!

Read the proposed regulations and WAKE UP PEOPLE!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

51. I did read the regulations.

That's how I learned that it's not mandatory. If you can point to something in the regs that says they intend to make it mandatory, then I'll apologize for being incorrect.

[Yellow Horse]

53. They are making a decision to make it mandatory. That's why USDA is taking comments. Geesh!

If they don't get comments that people are against it, they will FOR SURE make it mandatory. Hopefully the Obama administration is paying attention and will stop this wasteful mess, especially if this receives a lot of comments against it which is what is happening.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

75. Where does it say that?

Nothing in the OP's regulations.gov link says that. Can you just point me to where the regs say it'll be mandatory?

[Yellow Horse]

88. Oh, for pete's sake why are they taking commentary? Why is NAIS in the Omnibus Budget bill?

The Omnibus Budget bill that passed the US House last week? Funding to implement NAIS is in there. Why are some farmers getting signed up for premises ID without their permission already? Why is NAIS ALREADY mandatory for some species in some states?

I don't have the time to educate you. Go read up on this and do your homework.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

89. Well, then...

Oh, for pete's sake why are they taking commentary?

They are taking commentary, but not on what you say they are. The rules change cited in the OP involves standardization of certain numbering schemes for people who choose to participate in NAIS. At least that's what it says at the link. I don't know if that's the only NAIS-related rules change under consideration, but nothing in the one cited says anything about it being mandatory.

I don't have the time to educate you.

Nor do you have time to educate yourself it seems. You're up in arms about a regulations change, and you can't even provide the text of the regulation that's upsetting you. You keep claiming that this is being made mandatory, yet have not provided a single shred of evidence to support your assertion. I've asked you to do this and you either won't, or more likely can't.

[cornermouse]

92. That mandatory thing?

They already send out some sort of form that you have to fill out stating how many chickens, ducks, pigs, cows, etc. that you have. If you try to ignore it, they do follow up on it with a threat to fine you $100 if you don't fill it out and send it in. I don't know if its only a once a year $100 fine or whether it's once a week if you don't. Technically, since they don't plan to send you to jail and since the fine is only $100, I suppose you could consider this not mandatory but for most of us, it might as well be.

[LeftyMom]

14. Animals aren't food.

Just sayin'.

[demodonkey]

15. Whether they are food or not they will have to be treated as meat under this NAIS program.

Sheep. Alpacas. Kid's pet pony.

Fight NAIS if you don't think they are food.

[LeftyMom]

17. Reread the phrasing of your OP, it presupposes that animals=food.

As far as I'm concerned, anything that drives up costs and reduces profitability for animal abusing industries is THE BEST GODDAMNED IDEA EVER. And they did this one to themselves. :rofl:

[demodonkey]

20. So you would prefer to hand the animal industry over to Big Ag and factory farms?

Under the proposed regulations factory farms will get off without having to chip any animals because they will be allowed to treat a whole batch of them as one "lot" under one "lot number." Just like a "lot" of widgets or car mufflers.

Only the family farms will have to bear this burden -- some of which raise animals that are not even used for meat (wool sheep, horses, alpacas, donkeys, laying hens, etc.)

so... you PREFER allowing NAIS to drive out family farms and thus you encourage this....



instead of THIS ???







You are a very smart and caring person. The pigs and chickens in photos #1 and #2 truly appreciate your support.

[LeftyMom]

22. My point is that non-human animals are not a resource to be used or abused.

I'm opposed to animal agriculture. Period.

Whether that's in intensive CAFOs* or on whatever imaginary happy meat farm straight out of a toddler's picture book where you think you think your dinner frolicked on before it died, I don't really think it matters. Ultimately, animal farming reduces living beings to machinery for the production of profit, and they are bred, kept, fed and then killed far before the end of their natural lives purely to enrich some human being. Issues of treatment or tracking or feed or other mineutia aside, there's no earthly way to claim that's morally justifiable.

So getting back to my original point: animals aren't food.

[WillParkinson]

23. Point: LeftyMom

Agreed.

[cornermouse]

24. You still don't get it.

Small farmers do not make it a practice to cut the beaks on their birds. Neither do they keep their chickens in small cages for their entire lives. If you don't believe me, look for a poultry swap meet in your area. Although it may not fit your "imaginary toddler's book" mental image, mine leave their pen every morning and get to spend a day in the sun scratching around for bugs and the like which, in turn, cuts down on insects attacking the garden. Grasshoppers and other insects simply don't thrive on my property the way they do elsewhere. They provide nice orange yolk eggs for my refrigerator. And while this doesn't apply to every small farmer, in over 10 years none of my chickens have ever ended up on the table sans feathers. Same thing with the pet turkey, ducks and geese.

Via your refusal you are in fact supporting the factory farms and abuse of animals and you are advocating for the destruction and/or extinction of rare breeds of chickens and other poultry, cattle, pigs, and horses which are not considered commercially viable but which have been kept alive due to small farmers and hobby farmers.

By the way, is that a barred rock, dominique, or maran hen in the picture, demodonkey? And are those Americanas or Easter Eggers in the picture?

[LeftyMom]

25. We're still talking about animals bred for human purposes,

misshapen from natural forms into less hardy creatures (by breeding for much more frequent laying, domestic chickens have more bone and heart diseases than jungle fowl, for one example) even if they receive supposedly ideal treatment. They still exist not for their purposes but for yours: "nice orange yolk eggs for my refrigerator."

This is both completely unnecessary and in no way ethically justifiable. Trying to paint it as a factory farming vs happy meat issue is stupid, because both are harmful to animals exploited for profit. Animal advocates have no moral obligation to carry water for boutique animal farmers, and any attempt to do so would be extremely ethically problematic, in addition to a waste of resources that could be better devoted to advocating a world without animal exploitation, rather than a one where the animal abusers have better PR and demand higher rates for their pounds of flesh.

[ZombieHorde]

27. "animals bred for human purposes"

I don't like pets either, but I do support helper animals, such as seeing eye dogs.

[cornermouse]

28. Does this mean that you're now advocating

we proceed directly to euthanizing all animals that are not still feral?

And no, I regard keeping chickens as a mutual benefit society. They get to run around and eat bugs and do other chicken things without fear of an early demise. I don't have to fight as many garden pests and I get eggs as well.

[LeftyMom]

54. Just stop breeding them

:shrug:

[TXRAT2]

32. Question!

What do you suggest we do with all the animals currently on ranches all over the US?

[LeftyMom]

55. Phase-out.

Stop breeding more.

[TXRAT2]

77. I have over 600 head,of cattle, what should I do with them?

[MadHound]

35. So what would you do?

Let all the domesticated animals run free? Good luck with that, the last chicken I knew that lived free lasted about four months before it was a pile of feathers and a dinner in some fox's stomach. Let cows and horses run free? Wow, and you think we've got a problem with cars hitting just deer. Let pigs run free? Oh, yeah, that's already happened and guess what, the pigs are tearing up lawns and crops and property, and many states have instituted hunting for these feral pigs.

And frankly, the fact of the matter is that even if you're a vegan, you benefit from domesticated livestock. The normal, organic crop rotation schedule is generally something like corn, legumes, wheat, and pasture/fallow. Doesn't matter what crop you plug in, once every three to four seasons you've got to come in with livestock and graze them so that they can manure the field in order to restore the soil. If you don't do this, you can use green manuring techniques, but it's much more inefficient and would drive the cost of your food way up.

Finally, no matter how you fight it, the majority of people in this country are omnivores, and they do eat meat. Therefore rather than trying to deal with the situation by denying reality take your head out of the sand and actually realize what's going on in the real world. Saying that you don't want to help anybody who keeps livestock because you don't believe in exploiting animals is nice and all, but it's simply a cop out that lets factory farms come in and take over not just the livestock sector of agriculture, but also helps them take over your baliwick, the vegetable and grain sector. What effects small farmers effects you, get it?

Oh, and if you have pets, this could very well effect you down the line, since the USDA is pushing to chip all animals on a farm, including pets. Get the picture.

[TXRAT2]

36. Get the picture.

Some will never get the picture.

[MadHound]

38. I have respect for vegans and vegetarians

Not something that I could do, but if they want to, great. The problem is that in any economic organic food operation farmers need to resort to the time tested tactic of crop rotation,which includes a season getting manured. Food crops, if they're going to be farmed economically, need fertilizer of some sort. It can come either in the form petroleum products or animal manure. Yet so many people don't get this simple fact.

Glad that you do.

[TXRAT2]

40. I'm not a farmer although I do farm, mostly feed for cattle.

I've been ranching for 30+ years. I now have over 600 head of cattle running on 42 square miles of ranch. I've got just over 1600 acres in various food plots that i turn them lose in during the winter months.

[MadHound]

42. I've got twenty acres myself

Do a specialty in growing organic veggies, orchard, berries, etc. My neighbor raises organic beef and I have him turn out some of his cows in my field for manure purposes, plus he gets free feed for awhile.

Amazing how some folks simply don't get farming basics.

Forty two square miles of ranch, more than I would want. But you're living where, in Texas? Soil is not that productive is it. I'm in Missouri and if I take care of the soil I can get quite a bit out of just a few acres. 1600 would be more than I want to take care of, but hey, to each their own. I'm just happy to be out in the country away from tons of people.

[TXRAT2]

47. 3 sections of it I own, the other is leased.

[LeftyMom]

57. Okay, let's break this down one at a time.

Let all the domesticated animals run free? Good luck with that, the last chicken I knew that lived free lasted about four months before it was a pile of feathers and a dinner in some fox's stomach. Let cows and horses run free? Wow, and you think we've got a problem with cars hitting just deer. Let pigs run free? Oh, yeah, that's already happened and guess what, the pigs are tearing up lawns and crops and property, and many states have instituted hunting for these feral pigs.

This is a common objection and built on a really stupid supposition that animal agriculture disappears overnight. NOTHING disappears overnight. As demand slows, people will reduce breeding of these animals.

And frankly, the fact of the matter is that even if you're a vegan, you benefit from domesticated livestock. The normal, organic crop rotation schedule is generally something like corn, legumes, wheat, and pasture/fallow. Doesn't matter what crop you plug in, once every three to four seasons you've got to come in with livestock and graze them so that they can manure the field in order to restore the soil. If you don't do this, you can use green manuring techniques, but it's much more inefficient and would drive the cost of your food way up.

I'm pretty much surrounded by farms, and few of them rotate and none rotate to pasturage. Somehow California manages to produce most of the US's (insert food item here- almost any would be true) anyhow. :shrug:

As far as manure goes, it's a huge disease risk. Especially cow manure. *see spinach recall*

Finally, no matter how you fight it, the majority of people in this country are omnivores, and they do eat meat. Therefore rather than trying to deal with the situation by denying reality take your head out of the sand and actually realize what's going on in the real world. Saying that you don't want to help anybody who keeps livestock because you don't believe in exploiting animals is nice and all, but it's simply a cop out that lets factory farms come in and take over not just the livestock sector of agriculture, but also helps them take over your baliwick, the vegetable and grain sector. What effects small farmers effects you, get it?

All of this was addressed above.

Oh, and if you have pets, this could very well effect you down the line, since the USDA is pushing to chip all animals on a farm, including pets. Get the picture.

oh noes! I might have to microchip the rescue kitties! :scared:

The whole point of this program is to track food-producing animals and animals in regular contact with food-producing animals because industry has done such a piss poor job of keeping records which could limit the scope and severity of disease outbreaks. Y'all brought this on yourselves.

[Yellow Horse]

63. Horses are not "food producing" animals. No one I know eats llamas or alpacas either.

Why are they being tracked, other than to line the poclets of big business and companies that make this equipment?

You have a right not to eat meat, but other people have a right to breed and raise and eat animals if they want to. And a right not to have to register their property with the government or be tracked every 24 hours while they are doing it.

See the Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution about unreasonable search and seizure if that means anything to you.

[LeftyMom]

65. Living, feeling beings aren't property.

Jesus tittyfucking Christ, how hard is that concept to grasp.

[Yellow Horse]

69. Under present laws, animals ARE property. And please - cut the profanity around the Lord's name?

Some people on this board are believers in the Christian religion. Please be respectful of them, especially since you espouse 'respect' for animals.

[LeftyMom]

85. The law is an ass. And superstitious nonsense is part of the reason people have such fucked up ideas

about non-human animals: Christian dogma about "souls" and similar horseshit.

So no.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

96. Off-topic, but my German Shepherd is buried in a Catholic cemetary

My mom actually buried her ashes over my dad's grave. The funny thing is, he didn't even like the dog.

[cornermouse]

76. Using your logic and recommendation

they will be neither living nor feeling. If you had your way, they'd all be dead. That doesn't seem very animal friendly at all.

[TXRAT2]

78. What a crude individual!

Your input means nothing to me.

[MadHound]

67. Another foodie who is ignorant about how farms, especially traditional organic farms are run

"This is a common objection and built on a really stupid supposition that animal agriculture disappears overnight. NOTHING disappears overnight. As demand slows, people will reduce breeding of these animals."

Unless this does disappear overnight, the demand for meat, eggs and dairy is going to remain strong in this country, the last, oh say couple thousand years should show you the truth of this.

"I'm pretty much surrounded by farms, and few of them rotate and none rotate to pasturage. Somehow California manages to produce most of the US's (insert food item here- almost any would be true) anyhow."

First off, notice in my post that I said "organic" farms. Are the farms around you organic? From your description that you gave, no, they probably aren't. If they are, then that liquid fertilizer that they're spraying, you know the one that stinks, well that's composed of manure. Otherwise these are modern farmers using chemical, mainly petroleum based fertilizers, and we've seen how well that's worked out in the long run:eyes: Oh, and how often do you truly observe these farms, not just in passing down the road, but actually gone in and see what these farmers are doing. My guess would be not very often to never, somewhere in there.

As far as manure being a huge disease risk, well, it really depends on how you handle it, but frankly unless you're willing to spray tons of chemical fertilizers on your crops, your only other option is manure. Gee, and we've been doing this for centuries and eons with no ill effect. Oh, yeah, that's right, because the vast majority of the time the people who harvest, process and ship things like spinach, they have enough common sense to wash the product first. So don't blame the farmer on this one for using organic fertilizer, blame the idiots who did the processing and who skipped the wash cycle.

"oh noes! I might have to microchip the rescue kitties!"
Yeah, and what's the long term effect of placing a foreign electrical object under the skin of any animal? Oh yeah, that's right, researchers are finding out that it's cancer:woohoo: Enjoy your chipped kitten while you can.

"The whole point of this program is to track food-producing animals and animals in regular contact with food-producing animals because industry has done such a piss poor job of keeping records which could limit the scope and severity of disease outbreaks. Y'all brought this on yourselves."

No, the whole point of this program is to burden small family and organic farmers with additional monetary and time burdens in order to help put them out of business. Notice that this bill has huge loopholes that factory farmers, the ones where most of the US meat supply comes from, can slide right through. However organic farmers, who rotate crops and livestock are forced to bear extra costs, thus forcing them one step closer to going under. Hmm, no more organic veggies for you or me. Then what will all the little foodies do?

Oh, and please tell me exactly how the hell we brought this on ourselves? Your blame the victim routine is pointless, baseless and quite frankly wrong.

[AndrewP]

82. We are soul mates. :) The animal harvesting industry brought it on themselves

They made their meat. Now they can enjoy this aspect of it too.

[Grinchie]

41. Would you have the rats or Mongoose eat them?

You are not welcome at my farm, because the bounty that nature provides to me is not limited to vegtables alone. Man is an Omnviore, and it's your choice to eat what you like.

Not all farmers are exploiters of animals, despite your need to rationalize it for yourself. Just do your own thing, fight big agribusiness, because they are into your food too, putting bacterial genes all over each cell, and you are probaly oblivious to it. More concerned about someone eating healthy eggs than the reality of mans evolution.

Tell it to the hunter gatherers of Africa, or the America's. I don't recall seeing the Indians as total vegetarians.

The real shame is America's phony love affair with pets. Feeding them god knows what, restricting them to sedate unhealthy lifestyles, taking them to Human Doctors for treatment they impose upon them.

Give me a flock of happy chickens any day. They work with me and are not totally dependant like pets, yet they are just as comforting to have around.

[LeftyMom]

58. So those "happy chickens"- all female, no?

What happened to the male chicks?

[TXRAT2]

79. Breaded, Fried or Baked!

Your really not familiar with this subject, are you?

[LeftyMom]

84. Actually, if they're a breed used for eggs, the males probably got ground up alive for fertilizer

or dumped alive into trash cans and thrown in the garbage shortly after they hatched. That's usually what happens.

BTW, your glee at death creeps me the hell out.

[TXRAT2]

86. BTW, your glee at death creeps me the hell out.

Good it's called reality! Everything eventually die's!

[cornermouse]

87. The only ones who throw them into

the dumpsters are factory farms and factory farm suppliers. Small farmers prefer to keep them alive so that they can sell them or use them with the hens.

"BTW, your glee at death creeps me the hell out." ...Don't you remember saying they should all be dead earlier?

[LeftyMom]

91. Don't misquote me.

I said we should stop breeding non-human animals to be exploited.

[cornermouse]

93. See post 84. n/t.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

97. Umm...not breeding them is not the same thing as "they should all be dead"

[Grinchie]

37. Fine, but you are fighting with eons of history

You should try dealing with wild pigs. They procreate incredibly fast, and if there was nothing around to keep the population in check, they would consume everything. It's the same with chickens, and they will kill each other if the population gets too large.

They may not be food for you, but they are for a great many people. I raise chickens and they live a wonderful life, then they bless me with nourishment. This is Gods gift to us, but it has been corrupted by Mechanized Agriculture.

Like it or not, we evolved from omnivorous apes, and you may be restricting your potential by not realizing the natural order of things. If you don't eat well, then you are malnourished, which produces an environment where other organisms can invade you and overwhelm your system.

I think it's different for people like me that actually love our animals, take care to raise them humanely, and then take what we need and continue the line for many more generations. Id rather do that and have a partnership with my flock than utilize them for profit. I am close to my food, and can marvel at the wonders of nature. And yes, I can eat them and be thankful.

Furthermore, Chickens are great conversion tools for the farm. They rake compost, eat insects, frogs and mice, and generally fertilize their range. The density I keep is 5 birds per acre.

[LeftyMom]

61. So is ending slavery or rape

Humans have a history of all sorts of unjustifiable horrible shit. That's why "but we always did it this way" is a logical fallacy (appeal to tradition.)

The whole idea of rampaging feral animals is stupid. Farmed animals are the products of controlled breeding. If their production is no longer profitable then no more will be bred.

[MadHound]

72. Really?

Is that why states like Texas and Arkansas are being overrun with feral pigs? How about all those wild horses people are worried about? Oh, yeah, their production was no longer profitable, but guess what, they bred and bred and bred.

You really have no idea about farm life, farming, or how you get your food do you? What, you think it just magically appears on the store shelves:eyes:

[TXRAT2]

80. She also has difficulty staying on topic>

[MadHound]

70. Billions and billions of people around the world would disagree with you

All the evolutionary evidence in the world shows that humans have eaten animals for tens of thousands of years.

Animals eat other animals

Sorry, but this isn't your magical happy pony farm where the lions lie with the lambs and the tigers eat only cotton candy and carrots. This is the real world where there are three classes of animals, herbivores, carnivores and omnivores. Humans fall into that last category, the one that says we eat both plants and meat. Deal with it.

[AndrewP]

81. You are correct.

[ZombieHorde]

26. All animals are food, even people are food.

We all eat each other.

This is a strong argument against a compassionate creation god.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. Yes they are. Humans developed as omnivores

just sayin'

[stuntcat]

56. Considering the sick WASTE of the meat industry that's exactly right

Humans were omnivores sure, and even I would maybe still eat SOME meat if was farmed like it was 300 years ago, but taking part in the industry now is 100% Environmental Rape. There is NOTHING natural about it & rich 1st-worlders eat way more meat than is even healthy.

it's just sick :puke: it's why I'm glad I'm almost 40.

[MadHound]

71. Tell that to a tiger

Or a wolf, or a bear, which is an omnivore, just like humans.

Animals are indeed food.

[kestrel91316]

94. Uh, yes they are. I just gave you an F in Biology 101. EPIC FAIL.

[superduperfarleft]

98. Where in biology 101 does it definitively state that "animals are food?" n/t

[Codeine]

18. Boo-fucking-hoo.

Farmers and ranchers treat animals like shit for their short, miserable lives then kill them so you can cram them down your overstuffed gullets with both butter-soaked hands; if the worst burden you have to bear in exchange for this horror is the added cost of an RFID chip and some paperwork then you've gotten off easy.

[leftstreet]

19. I didn't have the Rocky Mountain Oysters to say what you said

:thumbsup:

[demodonkey]

21. Boo fucking hoo right back. See post #20. You support the first and second photos...

...with YOUR attitude. Seriously THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE SUPPORTING.

You can be very proud of your humanitarian principles.

:puke:

[JoDog]

29. That's not true

My family owns dairy goats and uses the milk for its own purposes. The animals are treated extremely well and are never used for meat. They live out their natural lifespans and are buried--not slaughtered--when they die. They are given better medical care that many humans in this country. The proposed rules would hurt us.

Do not make the mistake of lumping all agricultural people into one group. I am also opposed to factory farms and operations that are abusive and cruel to animals. Your statements are unfair and uneducated.

[MrsMatt]

66. Word n/t

[DrCory]

74. I Think You Miss The Point...

The belief of the poster you responded to seems to be that keeping animals for food is an abhorrent act by itself. How the animals are treated is irrelevant. The poster is also pleased that the proposed rules would hurt you in this situation.

[MadHound]

39. Sounds like another vegan who wants their veggies grown in chemical fertilizers

Oh, wait, what's that you say? You want organically grown food? Well then, come to grips with the reality of the matter that if you want organic food, then farmers have got to go to the time tested system of crop rotation, which includes a season of the field being used for grazing, and consequently getting manured. Which means that farmers need livestock of some sort. What are you going to do with the livestock? Just keep them around for fertilizer purposes? Cool, can they pass that massive cost on to you, the customer? Wait, you say you want relatively cheap organic food? Then deal with the fact that if you want relatively cheap organic food for your vegetarian diet, then farmers are going to have to rely on livestock to manure their fields, and then sell the livestock for slaughter in order to save on costs/make a living.

Welcome to the reality of farming on any kind of scale.

[Grinchie]

45. Exactly -- they have no clue what feed costs, or that animals run out of space eventually

These are people fed the Corporate Bullshit of fast food, corporate style farming and the mantra that people can't grow food. Your not qualified they say, while they ram NAIS and GMO down our throats.

These people have sterile souls, paved over by a fat lazy society.

[Grinchie]

44. My what a broad brush you have.

Living in the inner city I suppose, with no clue on what it is to be connected to the earth.

I pity the people that will never experience what survival means when you are responsible for everything you consume.

Hollywood has done a good job brainwashing the country out of people that they apathetically accept that there produce and food will just magically appear at the local outlet overnight.

[Grinchie]

30. Hear is a choice sentance that lets Tyson off the hook

"Premises identification has value in and of itself, even if the animals on a given premises are not identified individually."

This language is what allows the big business to skip the rules in situations where it benefits them.

Meaning, they fully intend to allow CAFO's to identify the thousands of animals in a warehouse with a "Virtual" id. The large producer will never have to implant a chip in the individual birds, because they will never leave the building for their entire lives.

Compare this with free range animals that are allowed to roam, and you can see that Organic farmers would need to implant all birds or animals at a much greater administrative, labor and materials cost.

[TXRAT2]

34. Compare this with free range animals that are allowed to roam

If they want to chip my cattle they can have at it. I'll sell tickets to that show! I would suggest they have a few ambulances on stand by.

[alarimer]

46. RFID chips are the same thing they put in cats and dogs

to identify when they are lost. There is nothing inherently wrong with them. They are not going to hurt the animals at all, if that's what this is about.

[MadHound]

48. Actually, interestingly enough, there is evidence starting to come in

That is showing that RFID chips are causing cancers. However beyond the health problems is simply the problem of cost, cost to chip the animal, cost for record keeping, cost for time, cost for forms and licenses, cost for inspections, cost, costs, costs. Is it OK if farmers pass that cost on to you, the consumer?

[bvar22]

73. LOL! This thread is hilarous and revealing.

Those of us who actually live close to The Earth have a different opinion than some who in their ignorant zeal actually support the Factory Farming mistreatment of animals. :shrug:


Our birds are happy and healthy....AND will NEVER wear a tag.
Their eggs are delicious, and healthier than anything you can buy in a market.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Real-Food/2007-10-01/Tests-Reveal-Healthier-Eggs.aspx


The ONLY way to know for sure is to grow it yourself.

[InvisibleTouch]

83. Adding a comment is a bit complicated.

If you follow the link, it's not immediately obvious how to comment, and I had to poke around a bit and experiment. As best I could figure out, you want to go to the drop-down menu and choose "Proposed Rules", and then click on the little yellow "add a comment" icon along the right. Mine hasn't shown up yet, so I don't know for sure if that's the right procedure, but that's the way that seemed to make sense.

[1]

90. animals are food. and obama will never allow this to pass...