Something about gun sales I noticed this morning

[ThomWV]

I'm one of those gun lovin' Democrats, but this post is not about them being good, bad, or indifferent, its not about a right to have them or a communities right to be protected from them. Its just an observation about market conditions that seems contradictory to news reports. OK?

About three years ago I bought two pistols. No local shops had the ones I wanted but that wasn't a problem. You may not know this but not only can you buy guns out of catalogs and weekly advertising papers but you can also buy them on line from auction operations that are near identical to E-Bay. The one stipulation is that these guns are being sold by licensed dealers and they must be shipped by specific means and only to another holder of the appropriate license. Just about all licensed dealers will receive a gun for you and process the paperwork for a small fee.

So I went searching the internet for a good deal on two pistols. I knew exactly what I wanted and so I was just shopping for price. There were thousands of the make and model I was looking, one popular auction sales site typically had 250 or so per day for me to browse through. Today I did the same search again and found only 2. I tried several other sites, same thing. Very few pistols, new or used, were up for sale and the prices on those were quite low. These are quality firearms from a major international manufacturer (Beretta, the oldest corporation in the world) and the models and calibers are common.

So what's going on here? I see on CNN's website that gun sales are going through the roof, posting after posting here warns us of rednecks arming themselves to the teeth. How come the E-Bay for guns has so few guns for sale and why are the ones that are there so cheap? I dunno? You got any ideas?

[47of74]

1. Would something be wrong with the ones listed on eBay?

[ThomWV]

2. It wasn't actually E-Bay, just a sort of mirror site - but no, nothing wrong with the guns.

Their conditions were clearly stated. I think I found a couple of new ones and a hand full of used ones - a couple that were purposfully mislabled but similary models that guys were trying to slip into the buyer's view. The stunning thing was just how few were for sale. I looked at all models from a couple of major brands and it was the same way.

[tangent90]

10. Ebay doesn't allow guns or ammuniton.

period.

[sendero]

57. Nor does craigslist

[ProdigalJunkMail]

just a note...

I transposed the 61 69 in your sig and thought...who the hell is Brian...and what has he done??? It took me a minute...

sP

[Thirtieschild]

3. Mr. 30s says the problem is the NRA

They've told everyone the Dems are going to stop gun sales, scaring NRA believers into buying everything they can. He visited a Sportsman's Warehouse in Las Cruces last week, looking for primers to reload, said the shelves are empty. A neighbor wanted to arm himself and paid $1000 - WHOLESALE - for a S&W 1911. Paid $1000 and the service he's getting is horrible. Out here at the back of beyond a gun is a good thing to have, what with rabid skunks and foxes and, in June, a man-eating mountain lion on the road.

Don't know about e-bay, didn't know they sold them. I'm glad Mr. 30s doesn't know about online auctions. He has enough guns already, even built his own shooting range on the back four. He's over there plinking right now.

[Hangingon]

11. I was in the Sportsman's Warehouse last week...

out of almost every reloading supply I wanted.

[47of74]

12. Figures

They're such a far right mouth piece anymore.

[michreject]

31. That's the going rate for that 1911

I just bought 15,000 primers. They're hard the find. You have to be at the right place at the right time. Check Wideners, Powder Valley or Graf and Sons.

[sammythecat]

4. Maybe they fear the all-Democratic legislative branch.

Just a guess, but maybe they're afraid of a ban on handgun sales and they want to keep what they have. A lot of gun owners are ultra sensitive to any hint of things like that.

I have a pistol myself and I'm really not concerned, but many are. They ALWAYS are.

[sandnsea]

5. I'd guess folks are hanging on to their guns

even the ones who have not much else to hang on to, because people who think their guns are their last resort for hunting and safety, aren't going to let them go now for sure. The ones who can afford to buy, are buying new on credit cards? So the very few used that are for sale are cheap because the people who would usually buy and sell and trade, just aren't doing anything at all. Maybe?

[OffWithTheirHeads]

6. At the shops and range I frequent they tell me that they have

seen NO appreciable increase in sales but I live in the S.F. Bay Area and, as one range marshal told me, folks around here are smart enough not to believe the Obama gun grab bullshit.

I however, did buy a couple of thousand rounds prior to the election just in case McOldguy and Dan Quail with a pony tail won and I had to defend my domicile from the masses starving in the streets.

[ThomWV]

8. Prudent Move

Good thinking on your part. I've got a friend in town who owns a popular gun shop - he sells at considerable discount to the local police force and has a range they use for qualification - maybe I'll stop by and ask him how sales are going. They teach concealed carry courses required for permitting in this state there too and the number of enrollments might be telling.

[MUAD_DIB]

28. You know, I'm all for your right to own/carry, but I don't think if things really

go into the crapper than trying to defend yourself in the city will work.

You could have a few thousand rounds with you, and all one would have to have is a lucky strike with a Molotov.

If things really went to crap then your best bet will be outside of the city.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

33. Well, you and I don't disagree, however, the fact remains

That I live in downtown San Jose. Sometimes, you have to play the hands you are dealt, not the ones you wish you had.

If I had my druthers, I would be living on 50 acres in Costa Rica and wouldn't even have to think about this shit, but I don't and I can't and I see enough people starving in the streets already to make me think that this is a serious, imminent threat. Less so now, under Obama, but highly likely if McCain had won and still on the horizon if this Republican't economy continues to melt down.

[benEzra]

42. If you're in the Bay Area, the guns we're most concerned about

At the shops and range I frequent they tell me that they have seen NO appreciable increase in sales but I live in the S.F. Bay Area

If you're in the Bay Area, the guns we're most concerned about are already banned where you live. The biggest concern nationwide most of us have is the possibility of California-style gun bans at the Federal level.

U.S. v. Heller put the kibosh on outright handgun bans, but the repubs at the Brady Campaign and their followers in the MSM are drumming hard for a Federal ban on over-10-round firearms and modern-looking rifles at the moment, and those concerns are the primary driver behind the recent increases.

[Thothmes]

53. Name some Repubs that are drumming hard for a federal ban

The name I am most familiar with on that issue are Schumer D NY and Feinstein D CA.

[benEzra]

55. Paul Helmke, head of the Brady Campaign, comes to mind. Mitt Romney.

Rudy Guliani. Michael Bloomberg, if he's a repub again this week (I can't keep track). Alberto "No Habeus Corpus" Gonzales. Bob Dole was also a big AWB proponent, and George W. Bush otensibly supported one as well. Don't forget that the original Federal AWB (now codified as the silly 18 USC 922(r) import restrictions) was the brainchild of arch-right-wing repub William J. Bennett and was enacted by W's dad.

And AFAIK, the only "assault weapon" bait-and-switch introduced in 2008 was introduced by gun-404 repubs:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.6257:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:HR06257:@@@P

* Rep Castle, Michael N. - - 6/12/2008
* Rep Ferguson, Mike - - 6/12/2008
* Rep Ros-Lehtinen, Ileana - - 6/18/2008
* Rep Shays, Christopher - - 6/12/2008

although quite a few gullible (D)'s cosponsored H.R.1022 in 2007. Idiocy can be truly bipartisan sometimes.

[Thothmes]

59. How man Repubs in the Senate support gun control legislation

[benEzra]

60. I have no idea.

What I am focusing on is getting fewer DEMS to support idiotic proposals that will end up shooting the party in the foot, again, if not stopped.

But as someone who was burned (badly) by the 1994 Feinstein idiocy, I think the current buying rush is quite rational, even if the probability of a new ban actually passing is only in the 20-30% range. If I had the money, I'd have a Kel-Tec RFB on backorder and an AR and FAL next to the AK in the safe, along with a good supply of magazines and ammunition. Alas, I don't, but more power to those who do have the funds to go out and buy what they want.

[NightWatcher]

7. people are hoarding guns and new prices reflect this. Check out this disclaimer

it's from a site that sells all kinds of gun stuff and military surplus-y type items.

[MUAD_DIB]

29. Couldn't they just be trying to drum up business for themselves?

I've visited CTD, and they seem to have been saying this for some time now, and before that it was MREs that they were talking up as being in short supply.

[benEzra]

46. No, there's been an honest-to-goodness run on magazines and accessories.

If you don't believe me, try to find Magpul AR-15 P-mags in stock anywhere online. When they show up, they're gone within hours.

I'm glad I bought my SAR-1 and magazines in 2003, because the price has since increased by two-thirds and magazines are now expensive and scarce.

[tangent90]

9. The Administration is trying a first step toward grabbing our guns

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1

Somebody is giving Obama some -horrible- political advice...I really hope he's too smart too take it.

[spanone]

13. i think he's smart enought to ban assault weapons

[tangent90]

14. That would not be smart, it would be incredibly stupid.

I hope he is not stupid.

[spanone]

15. that's your opinion..he's not stupid and he will do it.

[tangent90]

16. If he does, how do you propose to keep them out of the hands of bad people.

You surely must have some idea since you are proposing shitting on the Second Amendment. What is your solution?

[spanone]

18. i don't propose anything. ask eric holder or President Obama. it's a good thing imo.

[tangent90]

22. You said you think he's smart enough to ban them which is pretty close to an endorsement.

How about an answer? How can we (they) keep the bad guys from getting them?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. Its no a good thing imnsho

It could help rejuvenate the repukes. There is also no evidence it will do a think toward reducing violence.

[MUAD_DIB]

30. God, the "bad people argument" again.

:eyes:

[paulsby]

19. he won't do it

and even if he wants to, DC v. Heller will prohibit it.

imo, he's WAY too smart to even try.

not to mention it would be congress that would actually have the pass the legislation, but i doubt obama is this stupid.

it's a loser issue.

it would cause him to lose support, it would not lower violent crime.

[spanone]

20. read the article....

[OmahaBlueDog]

17. Pelosi and Reid have already come out against anothher AWB

[Bobbieo]

25. This would be a move to keep assault weapons out of the hands

of the Mexican drug cartels.

[FudaFuda]

35. Full-auto machine guns and grenades aren't coming from the US civilian mkt.

Maybe theyre being provided to the cartels by corrupt Mexican police and military, after being supplied such military weapons by the US Govt. The drug cartels like full-auto AK-47's too, and those aren't coming from the US civilian market either. Perhaps Venezuela? via China? I don't really know. But using this Mexican smoke&mirrors story as a pretext to a gun ban is bullshit.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

40. Nonsense, the cartels are using full auto weapons not available in the US for civilians

[benEzra]

45. ...aka, the most popular non-automatic civilian rifles in the United States.

i think he's smart enought to ban assault weapons

...aka, the most popular non-automatic civilian rifles in the United States. No, trying to outlaw civilian rifles with modern styling would indeed be stupid; more Americans own "assault weapons" than hunt.

Not only would the backlash against a new AWB be even worse than the backlash against the 1994 Feinstein non-ban, but it would be pointless, as only 3% of U.S. murders involve any sort of rifle.

[RamboLiberal]

54. Has to go through Congress and ain't no way a lot of Dems

want to touch this. Nancy Pelosi threw cold water on it last week. Dems in House are looking at 2010 and I think Pelosi wants to stay Speaker.

[Edweird]

56. "with cartels employing automatic weapons and grenades" The AWB doesn't cover that.

It covers extremely popular SEMI automatic firearms.

The NFA covers fully automatic firearms and grenades.

Renewing the AWB will:
A) piss of every gun owner on the left (and there are more than you think) and
B) give the (R)'s a platform and an agenda (see 1996).

On top of all of that it will have ZERO effect on drug cartels with automatic weapons and grenades. They are already HEAVILY regulated here in the US.

Renewing the AWB is political suicide for Obama and our majority in Congress. I'm surprised he's not smart enough to see that.

[Renew Deal]

37. Pelosi killed this the next day

And the WH has no comment. It's not happening.

[aikoaiko]

21. Obama, Holder talking about reinstating gun bans + NRA hyping other less likely legislation = PANIC

Gun buying panic, specifically, and people holding on to their guns.

If anything, this should be a warning to anyone who attempts to reinstate the AWB that it will mobilize people. If AWB fears mobilize people to spend their hard earned money in this economy, you can bet it will motivate them to vote against AWB supporters.

[jmg257]

24. My store a decent (normal) selection of new pistols, but surprisingly almost

no used ones (I bought one of the 3 there - a small Beretta ;))

They had almost no rifle or shotgun tactical style semis. They can't get them in. Ammo prices "have doubled in a year".

I think people are keeping whatever they have, especially pistol-wise, while also buying those long guns likely to be banned.

[NYC_SKP]

26. An eBay for firearms?

I'm not familiar with it but since it's a buyer's market (low prices), could you share the URL?
PM me if you'd rather not post it here.

I've got a little Browning 22 auto, a couple rifles, one of granddad's single shot shotguns, but I've been wanting a shotgun with extended magazine (before they're banned).

And it's fun to browse, even if you're not buying!

[jmg257]

27. Try...

gunbroker.com, auctionarms, gunsamerica.com

[benEzra]

47. jmg257 provided some good links.

You do have to have a local dealer handle the Federal background check and paperwork; most charge $25 or so for the service.

[michreject]

32. You don't need to be a FFL holder to sell a gun on Gunbrokers

You have to ship it to a FFL holder. Not to the buyer.

[hollowdweller]

34. I was at a gunshow this weekend in Charleston WV

No shortage of guns but they had about twice the number of military style guns than they usually do especially AK's and really huge prices on them. Like double the last time I checked.

I'm not for reinstating the AWB ban or anything but to be honest while I love old military rifles, SKS's, M1, Mosin Nagants et al, stuff with some history to them, the whole badass folding stock rifles with big clips that are just commercial guns just don't do anything for me.

Love cool old Iver Johnson break tops, single actions, stuff like that.

[deaniac21]

36. Bushmaster and DPMS Panther Arms have sold more than 280,000

AR type rifles and carbines since November. It will take them more than a year to manufacture them. Sales of all military caliber ammunition are at the highest point in history. These are absolute facts which you will be able to look up in the March SEC filings.

[FudaFuda]

39. Can't wait till panic buyers realize their panic gun is gathering dust.

Buyer's market, woohooo!

[deaniac21]

62. There will always be a market for the AR.

[benEzra]

44. And those are only two AR-15 manufacturers out of 33 or so

(albeit two of the largest). I believe Rock River has stopped accepting backorders as the present backlog is more than a year.

[wartrace]

38. You would have a hard time finding an AR15 for a fair price right now.

Perhaps the prices were low because they are handguns that aren't in danger of being banned?

[-..__...]

41. I hate this panic buying crap...

and the unnecessary shortages it creates.

Some of it is by concerned gun owners, but I think a good deal of it is by speculators and hoarders.

From what I've been seeing there's a trickle down effect/domino effects of sorts.

A Number of people panic "OMFG, they're coming to take my guns away". This starts the rush rolling and it gets to the point
where a person has to decide whether or not to buy now or later and risk the chance of the supply drying up, or being placed on very long back order.

As an example... I ordered 10 USGI M1 Carbine mags from the CMP awhile back. I didn't really need them. The price was decent, but the way they were flying out the door I had to quickly decide if I should buy any or not. Had I put it off a few more days they would have been all sold out. My purchase had nothing to do with any future bans or restrictions.

Another complaint I'm seeing more of is from gun owners whom have a genuine need or urgency for certain repair/replacement parts (it's not just complete firearms that are in short supply).

Say someone needs to replace their bolt carrier, spring set, gas tube, etc on their AR-15.

Those parts might be difficult to obtain or a long wait because...

A) The hoarders and speculators are buying them up.

B) The firearms manufacturers are utilizing those parts for building completed rifles to meet the demand.

C) The the task of manufacturing of some parts has become less of a priority while the manufacture of other parts has been increased.

[benEzra]

43. The guns most in demand in recent months were those slated for banning

by the U.S. gun-ban lobby, specifically self-loading rifles with modern styling and over-10-round handguns. For example, there are over 33 manufacturers of civilian AR-15's (most popular centerfire rifle in the USA), and as of a month ago some of them were backordered six months to a year (and well over a year on some models), with prices up 20% to 40%.

As a result, those guns not currently targeted by the prohibitionists have seen sales and prices slide, as people prioritize their purchases toward guns more at risk of being restricted in the future. Hunting-style bolt- and lever-action rifles, traditional-looking shotguns, and revolvers have seen prices stay stable or even decline, so if you want one of those, it's a buyer's market.

As to fewer guns overall being for sale, it may be that people are simply holding onto the guns they own and selling fewer of them, even traditional-looking guns not at risk of being banned in the short term.

[L0oniX]

48. Huh? gunbroker.com has tons of guns

[Terry in Austin]

49. Corporations

> Beretta, the oldest corporation in the world

Beretta -- , according to Wikipedia; described there as "one of the world's oldest corporations."

Stora Kopparberg Bergslags Aktiebolag -- chartered in 1347 by King Magnus Eriksson of Sweden, according to Time magazine; described there as "the world's oldest industrial corporation."

[slackmaster]

50. GunBroker has over 15,000 handguns listed at the moment

I can attest to stocks in brick-and-mortar gun stores being scarce.

[Caliman73]

51. I am a GTL as well.

If you look at all internet sites like TGSM.com or their related sites, they are all advertising that "Obama is coming for your guns" Cheaper than Dirt, Sportsman's, Cabela's etc all have similar information. As stated it is a great deal of panic buying. No ammunition available either.

[madmom]

52. I posted this the other day, if you read the comments you'll understand. They are

afraid the bad black man is going to come and get them and their guns.


http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/nationwide-ammunition-shortage-hits-us/

[benEzra]

61. Has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with concerns about future availability.

And FWIW, the people pushing the Protruding Handgrip Ban bullshit are mostly white (chiefly Feinstein and McCarthy).

A lot of people, including me, were burned badly by the 1994 Feinstein idiocy, and are not so naive as to think that it could not happen again (or worse).

[sendero]

58. Wow..

.... the Kel-Tec Sub2000 I bought a couple months ago for $325 is selling for $475 now. Glad I went ahead and go it :)