Immigrants follow ambitions back to India, China

[mmonk]

Venu Venugopal thought he had it all: United States citizenship, a home in Chapel Hill and a high-level job in information technology.

Then last year, after more than two decades in his adopted country, he realized he could have even more in his native India. Venugopal, 45, now works for Cisco Systems in Bangalore.

-snip-

A growing tide of highly skilled immigrants from India and China are doing what was once unthinkable -- returning to their home countries for the promise of better jobs and more lavish lifestyles.

-snip-

I was absolutely amazed at the energy of what was going on in India," said Venugopal, who left Chapel Hill in 2008 and now lives in a community where about a quarter of residents are returnees from the U.S. "The country I come back to now, I have everything I had in the United States, plus more."

-snip-

"For the whole of American history, immigrants have come here on one-way tickets, whether it was on the Mayflower or from India," Wadhwa said. "Now we're exporting our critical talent. The message here is, we better wake up. We have this arrogance as if we're still the only great place in the world."

-snip-

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1426230.html


Wake up America. We've been used.

[tanyev]

1. "Now we're exporting our critical talent."

Oh, please. There is plenty of critical talent that got laid off, especially in tech industries, and is still available for hire.

[mmonk]

2. Talent yes, jobs not so much.

[Deja Q]

44. And judging by the interactions some have with the offshored help, is it "talent" or "trash"?

The truth is in the middle, but there's enough real life activity to counter corporate cant that everyone in every other country can do it soooooooooooooooooo much better than home grown Americans. (We all know their claim is bullshit to begin with.)

[JANdad]

3. Buh Bye...Buh Bye Now...thank you for flying...

Don't let the door hit ya...

[burythehatchet]

6. I edited out my expression of complete disdain for bigots

because it would not further anyone's understanding.

[JANdad]

7. ****yawn****

:boring:

[burythehatchet]

8. A perfect example of your apparent intellect. Now do another smilie as a

pictorial expression of your smarts.

Just my guess: The Indian fellow who went back to India probably contributed more to his community and to the US economy than you could ever dream of. Just a guess.

[JANdad]

9. What is your fucking problem?

I couldn't give two shits less about these scabs going back home...great...get the fuck out and let AMERICANS have the jobs that are here in AMERICA (still anyway).

If you are soooooo concerned about them...then you take care of them. Just the simple fact that they are LEAVING just goes to show that ALL they EVER wanted was the BEST of what this country has to offer...nothing more...simple exploitation...international job whores...follow the money...

[Kansas Wyatt]

10. Amazing how working people have been getting shit on for 30 years.

But that didn't matter, because they were not immigrants. Then those who place the immigrants on the pedestal wonder why working people fall for the Republican rhetoric about sticking up for Americans.

[JANdad]

17. What?

either I am really tired...or you post does not make any sense to me...sorry

[Kansas Wyatt]

18. People that place immigrants who don't care about being a citizen...

Over Americans, who have been sold out for the last 30 years. They would piss on the American worker, then hand everything over to the immigrant who doesn't give a shit.

[JANdad]

20. Oh...thanks

I thought that was what you meant and I agree completley...

[closeupready]

25. Yep.

n/t

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

14. He's an American citizen, genius.

But apparently that to you doesn't make him an American. Now why might that be...

[noamnety]

15. He was an American.

Perhaps you missed that he was a US citizen.

[JANdad]

16. He was American

when is SUITED him

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

19. He's a citizen. He's an American.

Who died and made you the arbiter of this?

[JANdad]

21. IMHO...

He is a "citizen" only on paper. He holds NO loyalty to this country and what it can become once again. Mark my words, he and many like him will be right back here again when the economic situation improves undercutting a "True" American by a couple of thousand per year so some Wall Street fat cat can pad his bonus.

If you look at your history and the struggles of the unions, the "Scab" was why it made unionizing so difficult. As long as people like this are willing to whore themselves out to the "highest" bidder, then our former way of life (that being the American middle class) is gone forever. But then again, I can only assume that you really don't give a shit about that being you are sooooo politically correct and all....

[noamnety]

22. Are you in charge of loyalty oaths now?

Being a US citizen does not require an oath that you will never work in another country.

(Sort of like how working at Ford doesn't morally obligate you to turn down all other job offers right up til the day you die.)

Most people take job offers that offer the most money - or the most personally fulfilling work - or the work that gives them the best flexibility for raising a family. You can refer to that as "whoring" themselves out, but people take the best job they can get (however they define that). Most people wouldn't opt to take a lower paying job and have a lower quality of life out of some perverted notion of nationalism that a third party is trying to impose on them.

My family worked/lived abroad for a couple of years. Am I a "True American"?

My daughter wasn't born in this country. What about her? Is she a scab because she was born abroad, was a few years old before she came here, and now she's got a job that someone born in this country could have had?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

35. Fortunately, your truly vile opinion has no legal standing. n/t

[ContraBass Black]

56. A few questions for you:

My parents came to the US, worked to put themselves through school, married, and produced four sons, citizens at birth, who will also be educated and gainfully employed. They have been paying taxes and contributing to the community the whole time. One is a citizen, one is a legal resident. They would consider returning to their contry of origin if conditions make it worthwhile.

Are all six of us not True Americans, or just my parents?

Did they scab the True Americans out of the just jobs they hold, or the jobs their sons hold as well?

Did they scab the True Americans out of four to six undergraduate degrees and one to four graduate degrees?

If any of their sons should choose to move to another country, does that affect whether or not we are True Americans?

I've moved away from them, to a metropolitan area where the wages are lower, but so is the cost of living. Am I more or less of a whore?

[burythehatchet]

59. I hope you aren't waiting for a reply to your questions

But I appreciate your asking them. I was too angry to compose them myself.

[closeupready]

24. I actually agree with you. His departure demonstrates that he doesn't care

that much about being an American. He cares about a life of luxury more. Fine, but then now we know that there are many others like you, you only come here to help exploit American workers.

[noamnety]

28. Couldn't you say the same about a hell of a lot of Americans?

They stay here because they think their quality of life is better here, or because it's the path of least resistance, or because this is where they have the best job offer. Not necessarily because they "care" about being an american. I guess those people are "exploiting" America?

[closeupready]

31. I suppose you could. There are 300 million Americans. Some of them MUST feel that way.

So yes, you could say that there are some people like that. Investment bankers for one, who claim that if they don't get their bonuses regardless of how their banks are performning they will leave for London and Tokyo.

And the point to that is what?

[noamnety]

33. Could you say it about lower paid people as well?

Are working class people mainly here because they care about America?

Or do you think most of them are here just by chance, because they were born here, and again - it's the path of least resistance to stay in the country where you were born?

[closeupready]

34. Again, some of them, yes. Others no. You are making no sense.

What is the point you are making?

[noamnety]

37. My point:

Some people here are trying to portray fairly universal traits (like wanting a decent job and a good quality of life) as UnAmerican and Evil in an attempt to dehumanize and demonize immigrants.

[closeupready]

38. My point is in post #32.

n/t

[Deja Q]

43. A logical assertion too.

:shrug:

There are many points of view.

At least they did it legally. Many come here illegally, get better child care and health care than the rest of us, then bugger off when the timing is good too.

The corporate world is not tied to the governments of the world.

[Smith_3]

23. Ain't it funny how this site turns into FreeRepublic anytime immigration is discussed?

Someone tell the guy that our president is the son of an immigrant.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

36. It isn't just immigration.

It's any time anybody other than a native-born Murkin gets a job. Nobody but Murkins deserves a job, don'tcha know.

[superduperfarleft]

50. You're a bigoted pig. n/t

[JANdad]

58. I only have two words for you....

Fuck and you

[juno jones]

4. Anyone who has rushed to our shores in these last *8* years

has not given a shit about the political reality of the situation. Period. Don't let the door hit ya.

[ThomWV]

5. I was fortunate enough to work with Indians much of my life and now with luck

I will have a daughter in law who was born and spent the first half of her life in India as well. I respect the culture more than you can immagine though I recognize it has its faults (I also recognize how divergent it is and how impossible it is to think of India as home to a single culture) with intollerance in some areas. India's political realities are grim, look at her neighbors from Burma on to Bangladesh, China, Occupied Nepal, the Casmer Region and Pakistan. We can't even handle our border with Mexico, how would you like to be India?

[treestar]

11. US immigration laws are so 19th century stupid

They assume the immigrant comes over to stay permanently.

Nowadays, most people have the ability and hope of going home. There is not Irish Wake.

[Eryemil]

12. I am hoping my family will come to Canada since I plan to stay after I finish my studies

There's probably not going back to Cuba for us, at least not in my parent's lifetime.
Of course, our situation is different. My mother is a Ph.D and my step-father an engineer so for us it was more a matter of leaving Cuba than actually finding a country that would take us.

I cannot speak for laborers and such but a lot of the intellectual capital that used to go to America isn't anymore.
It is already apparent that more qualified talent from Eastern Europe is choosing to remain at home.
I don't see why it should be any different for the Indian and Chinese.

[treestar]

29. They are also developing universities

It used to be that one thing the US had to offer was a good university education and many came here for that purpose. Thanks to post 911 restrictions on student visas (after all, one hijacker came on one) we're losing out on that, too.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

13. LOL @ "being used."

You think someone who stays here, gets an education, and works for a living is "using" you? Cry me a freaking goddamn river.

[Blue_Tires]

26. the Chinese and Indians going back home doesn't surprise me

thanks to outsourcing, that's where all the jobs are, anyway...

maybe someday in the future wages will get high enough over there that all the companies move back here to take advantage of our low-cost, eager, desperate, easily pliable labor pool....

[treestar]

27. I wonder if this country will experience the reverse for the first time

in its history - people immigrating to India because that is where the jobs are. You'd think the allegedly out of work IT workers would give it a try - our ancestors did it.

One can only wonder if India will have an equally restrictive law and they'll be singing another tune about how unfair it all is.

[Blue_Tires]

30. for a few years, I've been doing some preliminary research

about what it would take to move and work overseas, and I was really surprised by the mountain of restrictions and roadblocks, especially in EU nations...(granted, i don't have a lot of options on where i can go, but still)

[closeupready]

32. Of course. Free trade only means free flow of capital, not labor.

You will NEVER see negotiators of these trade agreements make provisions which make it easier for people to actually move across borders where better jobs may be.

Yet another fact belying the term "free trade".

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

40. Duplicate

the website said this post failed,

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

41. Uhh... what trade agreements are you reading?

There is a special class of non-resident work visa under NAFTA known as TN, it allows American, Canadian and Mexican "professionals" to work with minimal restrictions, and before you grab your pitchfork and light up your torch, most of these NAFTA visas are held by Americans working in Canada.

Our trade agreements with Singapore and Chile make similar accommodations, however instead of having a special class of visa like NAFTA does a special quota of H1B visas is set aside for citizens of those countries, however few are claimed.

[closeupready]

45. Exactly, you made my point. Blue collar workers and non-professionals are forgotten,

just as you have done. No mention of their plight, because when their jobs are outsourced by companies taking advantage of these trade agreements, they are shit out of luck - negotiators give them nothing in exchange for the impact the agreements will have on these workers, because the whole idea is to shift cash/resources to the owners of capital and away from organized labor.

[treestar]

46. Exactly, if we could just go both places, wages would equalize

Take India. If Indians can come to the US whenever they want for any job and Americans can go to India on the same basis, the wages equalize and so everyone stays home because it's home.

The capitalist class doesn't want that. They want to play the low wage workers against the higher wage workers. And they know it is more expensive to live in the US (generally speaking). So they keep US wages down with the threat of outsourcing.

This is why H-1b haters are barking up the wrong tree (or really just xenophobes in disguise). They should be trying to be allies to the Indians and others to get both governments to back off on the location restrictions for workers.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

39. I suspect the demographic shock of the 21st Century will be American EMIGRATION

There is lots of opportunity in the world for educated english speakers, and you can live quite comfortably just about anywhere on earth in this day and age.

[treestar]

47. It will be interesting to hear American complaints about other countries

requirements and restrictions.

US Americans always think they can go wherever THEY want to go. We always think we can just go to Canada, like they will take us any time we don't like what is going on in the US!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

51. That is the funny thing,

US Immigration policies are some of the toughest, most arbitrary and illogical anywhere on earth, it isn't that difficult to get a work visa as an American in most countries.

Want to work in Singapore for instance?

Goto the Ministry of Manpower website, enter the appropriate data and supporting documentation, the company wishing to hire you will already be on file and you get a response in a couple of days or less, print out the documents and show up at the airport with your passport and the documents from their website and be on your way in 15 minutes. Americans typically don't overstay their visas, represent a public burden or engage in much criminal activity so in most countries the door is wide open.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

54. It's easier in most of Europe as well.

I had very little trouble getting a UK work visa, and some of the British folks I worked with had a hell of a time getting US work visas when they tried.

Of course, most of the people ranting about immigrants to the US probably haven't ever been an immigrant to another country, and likely haven't known any immigrants to the US. Therefore they have a warped perspective on the relative difficulties of immigration in various countries.

I know this rightwing whackjob who sends me political screeds once in a while - usually about immigration or language issues. In his last one he was ranting about the whole "Yew Needs Ta Lern English" thing and said something to the effect of "No other country in the world allows business to be conducted in anything but its native language." I had a good laugh at that one, since I had recently applied for a job in the Netherlands where speaking English in the workplace was considered perfectly fine. Ah, the stupid, it burns.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

52. That is the funny thing,

US Immigration policies are some of the toughest, most arbitrary and illogical anywhere on earth, it isn't that difficult to get a work visa as an American in most countries.

Want to work in Singapore for instance?

Goto the Ministry of Manpower website, enter the appropriate data and supporting documentation, the company wishing to hire you will already be on file and you get a response in a couple of days or less, print out the documents and show up at the airport with your passport and the documents from their website and be on your way in 15 minutes. Americans typically don't overstay their visas, represent a public burden or engage in much criminal activity so in most countries the door is wide open.

[Deja Q]

64. Like how that British couple went to Dubai, fucked on a public beach, and got arrested.

Hmmm, seems more than just Americans are ignorant of the laws of other countries they go to. Damn. Maybe they were closeted Americans. :shrug:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=uk+couple+sex+beach+dubai&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

71. uhh yeah, I know a couple that got arrested for that in Orange County

I suspect you would be arrested for that in most places,

[amandabeech]

57. Actually, anywhere from 25% to 40% of the Great Wave immigrants

who came here around 1900 went back.

Some didn't like it here, some just came to make a little money and intended to go back, and some couldn't get steady jobs.

I imagine that it is about the same this time around, except that we still have more people coming in the door every month. In the mid-1920s in-migration was restricted.

[OhioChick]

68. India firing foreign workers to give jobs to locals

India firing foreign workers to give jobs to locals

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Industry/Jobs/Expatriate_executives_making_way_for_local_hires/articleshow/4039529.cms

Guess you didn't get the memo.....

[Hello_Kitty]

70. Yes, and we can thank people like some of the morons posting on this thread

DU is full of people willing to carry water for the cheap labor lobby.

[Deja Q]

42. Proof that we ARE elevating other countries' standards of living.

And if these companies don't stop the bleeding in America, it will render EVERY country a 3rd world cesspool. The stock market proves it time and again. Proverbially speaking: When we sneeze, the other economies catch the cold too.

[noamnety]

48. Do other countries elevate our standard of living?

I'm sensing a double standard.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

49. Uh, yes?

Or would you prefer not to be able to use your fancy internal combustion engines?

[noamnety]

55. exactly.

A lot of people would like to enjoy all the resources of other countries at our whim, but don't view that as "exploitation."

[Deja Q]

62. Well, you can believe what you want, whatever the hell *that* is...

Who said (or implied) anything about American workers being lazy or anything else? I'm not out to exploit anybody. As are most American workers. We're doing our jobs. If we wanted to exploit, we'd sit back and not give a shit about, well, anything.

Maybe I just need clarification of what "exploitation" means to you.

Please read my other response to you before responding to this one. There is added context for you to ingest.

[noamnety]

67. I don't think anyone here has said anything about americans being lazy.

I think you hit on another universal truth here, though not in the way you intended: "I'm not out to exploit anybody. ... We're doing our jobs."

I think that's true of immigrants, people born in America, and people who live abroad (even when they work for US companies). I have relatives who worked for US companies who were sold out to foreign companies. They don't feel all that different about their work - they are just doing their jobs as they always have. They aren't setting out to exploit the people in the country where their new HQ is based.

You're focusing on outsourcing as if it exists in a vaccuum, not being part of a larger system. But in the system, we exploit the resources and labor of other countries in our energy consumption, our consumer habits (hello, Walmart), our food shopping habits (excluding those who eat local). Quoting you: "If we wanted to exploit, we'd sit back and not give a shit about, well, anything." That sums up our attitude fairly well, we do that. We go about having our quality of life, shopping, working, eating, without considering that much of that is available to us as a result of the exploitation of other countries' labor and resources.

In the giant cycle of international exploitation, the US has done far more than its fair share. The problem with focusing on immigrants or call center employees is that its (dishonest) goal is to render every part of that cycle invisible, except for the very small portion of labor relations where it's perceived that the US is the victim.

[Deja Q]

61. Not at all.

More Americans are losing jobs.

If globalization was about expansion, and not migration, no American would have lost a job and no country's economy (much less the entire global economy) would be in peril.

Now, if qualified person x loses his job in favor of cheaper labor who isn't nearly as good... or is a fraud, then there is even more legitimate reason to complain.

And assuming I made it before, I will make it now: If other countries, being developed, are now going to spend more, yet their workers make less than Americans do, is that not proof of a greater disparity between wages and the cost of living in America?

[noamnety]

63. Let's try that again.

Do other countries elevate our standard of living?

The US has 5 percent of the world's population, we consume over a quarter of the world's energy.

Whose resources are we using to maintain our standard of living?
Who is paying the environmental costs of our standard of living?

[Deja Q]

65. Thank you.

1. We should not be consuming that much energy. Which companies are denying Americans that choice? And politicians; before Obama we had one who encouraged Americans to consume oil with SUVs and Hummers and all that. Mind you, some of us drive responsibly in the first place (in terms of distance and number of trips and with the choice of vehicle...)

2. Well, depends on the source. As, depending on web site, we're either getting 10, 30, 50, or 70% of oil from Saudi Arabia, I stopped counting.

3. Environmental costs. Pollution. The US generates most of it via driving. China generates theirs from having no regulations on how they make their products. How are peons like you and I to blame for how another country does a damn thing? That's their business. Now we can "boycott China" or whatever, to the extent it's feasibly possible... is that your point? Or how do we encourage China to clean up its own act?

4. Or is it about government and not cheap, sloppy corporate indolence and greed?

[noamnety]

69. "some of us drive responsibly"

We'd have to define responsibly.

If you mean "trying to use the minimum we need to maintain our lifestyle" yes, some of us do that.

If you mean "using a personal amount of energy that would be sustainable if everyone on earth lived the way I do, even when taking into account the miles our food and consumer goods are shipped" - very few Americans do that.

We assume it's our right to use more than our fair share of resources, and we feel good about "cutting back" even when we continue to maintain our unsustainable lifestyles by exploiting the resources of other countries. We have an extraordinary ability to treat that as separate from labor relations. Not only separate, but not subject to examination.

Don't believe me? Try starting a thread about the environmental impact of eating meat. I'm a meat-eater, by the way, but I am still shocked at how indignant DUers get at the suggestion that maybe meat eaters are exploiting resources at frightening rates. Perhaps that's a larger ethics problem than a person deciding to immigrate to another country.

[Bill McBlueState]

53. good

People should be free to follow their ambitions.

[burythehatchet]

60. I've bookmarked this thread, so when people ask me "what Americans are like"

I can print this out for them. I can tell them that no matter what you contribute to this community, the people here, generally the most ignorant people on the planet, will always see you as a second class citizen. (I have lived on five continents through my life). The people here know shit about dick except who is in contention on American Idol. And they will express their ignorance as loudly, and proudly, as possible..oh, and these are the "enlightened" Democrats.

[OhioChick]

66. "We've been used" is right. n/t

[Deja Q]

72. Since all the opportunities are now over there, can the rest of us go too?

Or are the laws different and, unlike the US, those governments will take care of their own first?