Folks, how do we feel about the title 'First Lady'? Eleanor and Jackie hated it.

[Captain Hilts]

ER thought it sounded "very undemocratic," and Jackie thought it sounded like the name of a race horse.

I agree.

What do you folks think?

[WI_DEM]

1. In the early 19th Century they were known as "Presidentress"

[Captain Hilts]

3. I did not know that!

Dolly Madison: You should have asked me Capt. Hilts! And good luck Michelle!

[DJ13]

2. First Mama just doesnt have the same authoritative sound to it

[Captain Hilts]

4. Certainly sounds more fun at a party. nt

[Glorfindel]

5. It doesn't bother me. "The President's Spouse" wouldn't either.

I suppose a case could be made for "the Consort." That might be the perfect title.

[On the Road]

6. Yeah,

That's no lady -- that's Michelle Obama!

[Captain Hilts]

8. Congratulations on the win over UNC. nt

[On the Road]

10. Thank You

although I didn't even watch it. Don't know what happened to recruiting the last few years.

[RC]

7. Who cares what we think.

How does Michelle feel about it?

[Captain Hilts]

9. Yeah, I'm curious. nt

[TygrBright]

11. I feel that we have far more important things to discuss and worry about.

But that's just me.

(You DID ask...)

wryly,
Bright

[Captain Hilts]

12. That's an answer. But language IS important. nt

[LanternWaste]

13. It appears to me to be a very respectful and genteel descriptor.

It appears to me to be a very respectful, genteel, and efficient descriptor. I imagine that should Sen Clinton have won the primaries, the First Gentleman would be equally respectful and genteel.

That's all I've got-- maybe I'm not looking at it from the same perspective as you are... :shrug:

[Captain Hilts]

14. I'm actually not sure how I feel about it. ER and JBK are very popular here...

and they didn't like it.

I don't know what Hillary Clinton thought about it.

I remember in one of the huge anti-war protests the guy in the huge Bill Clinton head and woman's jackie-style suit wearing a banner "Bill for First Lady" walking along next to Cindy Sheehan between the White House and Lafayette Park. It was a really funny sight.

[LanternWaste]

15. If we base our own opinions of what may or may not be disrespectful

If we base our own opinions of what may or may not be disrespectful on two former first ladies, would it also not be equally valid to also base our opinions on what two different former First Ladies may have thought? And if that is indeed the case, I doubt it would be very difficult to find two highly popular first ladies who enjoyed the title. So that would most likely merely bring us back to where we are.

I'm trying to wrap my head around anything that could be even remotely disrespectful about the honorific, yet am still coming up empty. Why not you allow us the source of your own personal discomfort with the title and possible we can go from there...





As an aside, I imagine that the individual wearing the Pres. Clinton mask in your anecdote was being consciously disrespectful, but I also imagine a lot of people decided that class, honor, respect and dignity are simply too inconvenient during both the primaries and the general elections.

[Captain Hilts]

19. Who said it's "disrespectful?" I didn't. nt

[LanternWaste]

26. yet you do appear to have a problem with the title

Very well-- you didn't say you thought it was disrespectful, yet you do appear to have a problem with the title. So I ask again, merely to better understand your perspective, what is your specific and relevant problem with the title? On what do you base that as being a problem? What would you consider a more appropriate honorific?

I mean, I thought this was to be an open, two-way dialog... :shrug:

[MrSlayer]

16. I think it doesn't matter at all.

There isn't much that is less important.

[Captain Hilts]

20. You clicked on this thread.

And, now that I think about it, I'm not as interested in what men think about this issue.

[MrSlayer]

21. You asked, I answered.

Maybe next time you should be more specific as to who you want to answer.

[KamaAina]

17. If Hillary had won, what would Bill be called?

:shrug:

[LanternWaste]

18. Most likely First Gentleman

Most likely First Gentleman

"Similar to how the wife of a male Governor of a U.S. state is referred to as the First Lady of that state, the husband of a female Governor would be referred to as the First Gentleman of that particular state. If a woman were to be elected to the presidency, the term First Gentleman would likely be used in identifying the leader's husband"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Lady#First_Gentleman

[Sebastian Doyle]

35. Former President Clinton?

That's one advantage he would have had over most other potential "first husbands".

Or they would call him "42" like they called Poppy Bush "41" to distinguish him from his Idiot Son.

[question everything]

38. On "24" which brought us the first credible and honorable African American

president, the current occupier of the White House is a woman, and her spouse is referred to as "First Gentleman." Bill Clinton playfully said that he was going to be called "First Laddie."

[Captain Hilts]

40. Morgan Freeman was a pretty good president. nt

[defendandprotect]

22. Agree with both Eleanor and Jackie . . . did they suggest other alternatives?

[Captain Hilts]

25. I think Roosevelt suggested something relating to 'hostess' or something like that.

She shook enough hands, that would certainly have been descriptive.

[tnlefty]

27. In my mind 'hostess' trivializes the work that she did.

I don't know what an alternative to First Lady would be, but hostess seems a little offensive to me.

[Captain Hilts]

29. Me too. It does sound superficial. Though ER did do all that chickenshit stuff, plus...

a lot of FDR's chickenshit stuff, like going to the Army-Navy football game - you know she just LOVED that - attending all the inaugural balls - FDR never atteneded any, etc. She also did some of the more important symbolic stuff like laying wreaths, etc.

And to do what she wanted to do, she basically gave up sleeping for 13 years to get it done.

[tnlefty]

30. I was thinking more about pushing to get recognition for

The Tuskegee Airmen, and visiting them to draw the nation's attention to the inequality. She was advised not to visit, but she demonstrated a boldness that 'hostess' just glosses over, IMO.

[Captain Hilts]

33. Yes. She realized that just by showing up she could advance a lot of worthy causes.

The other three cases she did this in the 30s were:

1) Suggesting that women who worked in the home be given salaries so they would qualify for Soc. Sec.
2) Placing her chair in the middle between the legally-mandated 'white' and 'black' sections of a welfare gathering.
3) Resigning from the DAR.

Yes. I love the Tuskegee story and their exploits in Europe. A B-17 pilot's best 'little' friend.

[defendandprotect]

43. I think Eleanor had a great sense of humor . ..

but if you think about it, the Queen of England could be called "Hostess" -- as well

as the rest of the Royals who tromp about being social! Eleanor showed us where we

need to go -- after the real problems!

Anyone know how 0the "first ladies" of other nations are referred to?

What did we call Tony Blair's wife, for instance?

[upi402]

23. I remeber when crap like that mattered

It's soooo under the radar now. I miss those days! lol

[Captain Hilts]

24. We've learned here that men think it's trivial. nt

[upi402]

36. when the house is on fire

we're not worried about mowing the lawn. true. no lol

[Iggo]

28. I always thought it sounded lame.

She's the President's wife. I don't see that she needs a title.

But it also ain't the end of the world. No big deal.

[demokatgurrl]

31. I hate it. It's one of the reasons

I would like to see a woman in the White House- they'll have to call her husband something...

[defendandprotect]

44. I think the designation of "First" is rather stupid, like "First Methodist" . . . ??!!! or . . .

"first" among others --- it's dumb.

It shouldn't be something that tries to raise anyone over anyone else -- but simply

makes clear that she counts -- !!!

[Javaman]

32. I prefer...

First Ass Kicker, but that's me.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[question everything]

37. It is fine. These days, when everyone is so crude

when members of Congress twitter during the President speech, when "the public" demands to know the most intimate details about anyone in the news - let's leave a bit of civility there. First Lady is fine.

On a related note, I think that many of us were shocked when we first heard the little girl voice of Jackie Kennedy. Similar to... the voices of the women from the polygamy camp from last year.

Several months ago there was a program about FDR and I was amazed to hear Eleanor Roosevelt speaking in a similar voice. And she was a big woman. Queen Elizabeth, too, speaks softly. So I wonder whether several generations ago, girls who went to finishing school, or something, were trained to use a very soft voice as not to offend the earls of the gentlemen...

:banghead:

So let Michelle speak in her strong voice, but let us refer to her as the "First Lady." She earned it, she deserves it, especially since there probably not many women in her family who were addressed as "lady."

[Captain Hilts]

39. Eleanor, like her Uncle Ted, had a high voice. But she spoke boldly with it

depending on the setting. I have to admit, JBK's style of speaking publicly drove me nuts to listen to. Did she speak that way in private? I have no idea.

But I completely agree about Michelle Obama's voice - and Hillary Clinton's, for that matter. They don't speak softly or like Valley Girls, or baby talk. They don't swallow the ends of words. They speak OUT.

Popular culture really pushes soft, quiet voices for women. And women are only permitted to have southern accents, British accents, or no accent. It's very tiring.

[infidel dog]

41. Sounds fine to me. Now can we turn our attention to relevant matters?

[Captain Hilts]

45. Another man who doesn't care. nt

[infidel dog]

46. Quite.

[treestar]

42. What else could we use?

What do they do in other countries?

[demokatgurrl]

47. Mr. or Mrs. So-and-so's husband/wife.

Amazing, isn't it, that the spouse doesn't have to have a title and even gets to have a private life?