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Crash Details from the F-18 crash that killed 4 in San Diego

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 07:10 PM
Original message
Crash Details from the F-18 crash that killed 4 in San Diego
These are my notes. I thought you might be interested. I just watched the briefing on the ABC affiliate. I've taken some notes and I hope they're sufficient. I probably missed a few things, but you'll get the general jist.


Overall problem: The F-18 crash was a combination of a maintenance issue, mechanical failures and some very faulty decision making by both the pilot and a couple of squadron on the ground at Miramar, leading to the shutting down of one engine and the flameout of the other. (The right engine had a low oil pressure condition and the left engine had a case of fuel starvation leading to the flameout.) At the time of pilot ejection (an impact) the F-18 had lost both of its engines and its electricity, and the plane was in freefall over the San Diego neighborhood it crashed into. The F-18 was two seconds away from a canyon (where it could have crashed without killing anyone.) The accident could have been avoided at a number of points, and there is a lot of fault to go around. Eight people have been relieved of their positions and the pilot has been grounded.

Flight Details

1. F-18 had a Deferred fuel transfer discrepancy. There was a maintenance request on this F-18 on July 14 for “slow degradation of motive flow.” This aircraft had a history of maintenance status codes, but the squadron elected to use the aircraft. They were allowed to do this—it’s a judgement call—and the F-18 had 166 successful flight hours between July and December 8, when it crashed. The investigator, Col. Rupp (?), said that the maintenance department was lured into a sense of complacency. The questionable decision to fly the F-18 with its degraded fuel system was the first mechanical cause of the crash, and it affected the left engine (the one that eventually flamed out at the end).

2. 10 minutes after taking off from the aircraft carrier, the pilot noticed an oil caution from the right engine. He asked to speak to the squadron’s tower rep who told the pilot to divert to North Island, which was close by. According to Col. Rupp, this was the correct decision and was also normal operating procedure.

3. The pilot began to divert to North Island, and with a failing oil system, had to shut down the right engine. The tower rep read the pilot the procedures during the attempted diversion, assuming that the pilot was reading his own emergency checklist along with the tower rep. The pilot was not; he had not taken out the emergency checklist, although he led the tower rep to think he had by saying, “Yes. Ok.” Because the pilot was not reading the checklist and because the Tower rep assumed he was, the Tower rep did not read all of the cautions that came along with the procedures. One of these cautions concerned fuel (“Trapping Fuel” caution).

4. At 13,000 ft., the pilot, flying only on the left engine, gets a “fuel low” caution. (This is related to the initial maintenance issue.) The pilot tried to relay his condition to the ship, but communications were garbled and unreadable. No one on the ship heard what was happening to him. The pilot also did not read his emergency card which would have said “Land as soon as possible,” guiding him to continue his diversion to North Island. So you have a pilot with a single engine emergency and a low fuel emergency who was not reading his procedures and did not correctly analyze the situation. He did not realize that the fuel for the left engine was in a critically low state. The left engine’s feeding tank, Tank 2, was only receiving gravity transfer of fuel. The motive fuel system was not working at all. Had the pilot landed at North Island even at this point, he could have made a safe landing. He is 15 nautical miles from North Island at this point.

5. Pilot contacts Miramar and checks in with his squadron. He told them about his situation. Col Rupp said that the pilot was “not assertive enough” in his reporting because he didn’t understand the low fuel issue and had not read the “low fuel caution.”

The squadron duty officer received the call and got backup from the squadron operations officer, who told the pilot to land at Miramar. At Miramar there was a landing signals officer and a familiar, longer runway. (The pilot has not been able to see the ground all this time because of the San Diego marine layer. He has been relying exclusively on his instrument panel.) The Commanding officer (of the squadron) OKs the Miramar landing. The duty officer has not relayed the “Fuel Low” caution to the Commanding officer and no one obtained the pilot’s position relative to Miramar. No one understood where the pilot was or how critical his situation was. Col. Rupp calls this “collective bad decision making.”

6. Pilot gets a left AMAD caution. The left engine is getting hot because of the lack of cooling due to improper fuel flow. (Degraded motive flow.) According to Col. Rupp, this should have been an indicator of the severity of the situation. The pilot told the Operations officer at Miramar about the AMAD caution but the Operations officer does not read the emergency procedure to the pilot and the pilot does not read it in flight either.

7. The pilot is given a short cut to Miramar by the FAA approach control. This short cut apparently went right by North Island, where the pilot still could have landed safely had someone guided him there. The pilot heads to Miramar.

8. The “Boost Low” caution comes on. At this point, no one has read procedures and the Operations officer, thinking it is important to minimize communications at this point, does not read the pilot anything about the Boost Low caution. No one in the squad room realized all the cautions that were coming on and that tank 2 was running out of fuel.

9. Pilot called Miramar and confirmed settings for the landing. The operations officer led the pilot to believe that he had to remain at 85% RPM on a descent. Therefore, the descent was prolonged and used more fuel. The pilot knowing he is too close to Miramar and not wanting to make turns into an inoperative engine, declines the offer of descent. returning to the original idea of North Island.

10. The operations officer tells the pilot to “crank the right engine”. The idea was to allow air to spin in the non operative engine. (The right engine has been off since early on in the flight). No one having read the procedures, the pilot tries to restart the right engine; this action ends up causing the unintended consequence of stopping gravity transfer to the left engine. Apparently, this could have been mitigated by pressing a particular light (I didn’t get the name of it) but, again, nobody had read the procedures.

11. Although the pilot was trying to go for a landing at North Island, the Controller offered a right turn into Miramar. Because the right engine was inoperative, the pilot asks for a left turn, and ends up with a left turn of 270 degrees, which took 1 ½ minutes and used extra fuel and time. By the time the pilot emerges beneath the marine layer and can see the ground, he could see the Miramar runway which was 6 nautical miles away. He was cleared for landing by the LSO. Less than a minute later, the pilot, slowing down, realizes he is losing his left engine too. “I just lost my motor” he transmits. His left engine had just flamed out. The pilot is 992 feet above the ground and saw houses and a canyon. Trying to save lives, he moves the F-18 toward the canyon, but then he loses all electrical power. The pilot had no control.

The pilot ejects at the last possible minute, 400 ft above the ground, 1-1.5 seconds prior to being outside the safe ejection envelope.

The F-18 is in freefall, clips a tree, left nose and wing down. The wheel and left wing make impact into the two homes, destroying them.

The aircraft was 250-300 ft and 2 seconds away from the canyon.


Col Rupp stated:

1. A Jan 9th Fleet Wide Hazard Report of F-18s was issued.
2. At Miramar, a policy memorandum concerning Maintenance Status Codes was issued.
3. Commander of Naval Air Systems Command: overseeing a review of maintenance and clarity on maintenance codes.
4. F-18 simulator was found deficient in regard to simulations of engine failure and is being corrected.
5. There are conflicts and deficiencies in published procedures that have to be worked out.

Relieved for Cause: The Squadron’s

Commanding officer
Operations Commander
Operations duty officer

and 5 other administrators who were not named.

The pilot has been grounded. Marine headquarters will determine his future flight status.
No criminal wrongdoing was found.



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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you for the information. nt
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. You're welcome.
I think it's important.
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TroglodyteScholar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow! Thanks for collecting this info in one place...
Very fascinating how this all occurred. I work with aircraft maintenance and flight manuals, and this is a very serious reminder of how important it is to ensure that 1) all procedural data is correct, and 2) maintainers and flight crew are actually USING the manuals properly.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. So much of this was caused by communications issues:
1. manuals either unread or inconsistent
2. lack of clarity in oral directions ("'crank' the engine")
3. communications equipment that couldn't receive messages.

Two seconds saved anywhere during this flight would have meant that an entire family (mom, two kids and grandmother) would be alive today. Two seconds.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
39. Yep, very well done
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #39
51. Thanks. I hope it's useful.
:kick:
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. Excellent report
I'm getting my pilot's license and I can only imagine how much workload and how little time this guy had when he realized the extent of the problems. I'm surprised that there wasn't an electrical pump that could have kept the left engine fueled, though.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. The F-18s are old and they seem to have only gravity fuel backup.
No other possible source was mentioned. I'll keep my ears open and let you know if I hear anything.
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irish.lambchop Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
6. Wow - thanks for such detailed notes!
I remember when this happened but had forgotten about it until I saw the title of your post. Bad decision making, lack of proper communication, and mechanical issues . . . never a good combination :(
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. A perfect storm. And even then, they were only 2 seconds from not killing anyone
It's just so sad.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I'd like to ask for a recommend so we don't lose this info too quicky.
Thanks.
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Prisoner_Number_Six Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. K & R
:toast:
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TroglodyteScholar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R
Since I forgot to recommend when I replied earlier....
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Thank you.
I think people need to see this.
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irish.lambchop Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. K & R
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cloudbase Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
14. This is typical of so many incidents,
in that there was a chain of bad decisions. If the chain had been broken early in the incident, there would likely have been a successful outcome. There is much to be learned from this one.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. The article from the ABC affiliate
http://www.10news.com/news/18838912/detail.html#-

FAA Tapes: Jet Pilot Had Landing Options Before Crash

SAN DIEGO -- A pilot struggling to control a crippled Marine Corps jet bypassed a chance to land at a coastal Navy base and flew toward an inland base instead, where minutes later the fighter crashed into a University City neighborhood and killed four people, recordings released Tuesday revealed.

Military officials announced they had disciplined 13 Marines for a series of avoidable mechanical and human errors that led to the crash, which killed four members of the same family, including two children.

"It was collectively bad decisionmaking," said Col. John Rupp, operations officer for the 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar.

(More at the link)
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
15. Here's an article from Marne Corps Times on the disciplinary actions against
thirteen Marines:

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2009/03/ap_hornet_crash_discipline_030309/

snip

Four officers at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar near San Diego have been relieved of duty for failing to follow safety procedures and allowing the F/A-18D Hornet to fly over the residential area, the officials said. Nine other military personnel received lesser reprimands.

snip

During the 90-minute session, Lt. Gen. George Trautman, the Marine Corps top aviator, and other officers described a series of avoidable mechanical and human errors that led to the crash, Hunter and Bilbray said.

When asked if the accident could have been prevented, Bilbray replied, “Absolutely.”

snip

Another link:
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2009/03/ap_marines_hornet_crash_030309/
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Thank you so much!
:kick:
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. You are very welcome! Thank you for your wonderful summary.
It makes the story much easier to understand.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
16. Here are the crash tapes:
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
19. The pilot, crew and manufacturer of the airplane are clearly
murderers.
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bdab1973 Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. The pilot was a student learning to fly the F/A-18
He is not a murderer. He simply lacked the experience and background to work himself out of a complex and compounded emergency. I'm sure you would have done better.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
20. If I were flying a plane with a dead engine
I certainly wouldn't need to read an emergency checklist that said "Land as soon as possible".
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Well, the F-18 is meant to be able to fly on a single engine if necessary
Think of wartime: if one engine is destroyed, the pilot can still carry out the mission with the other one. The problem was that both engines were compromised. The right engine had an immediate oil problem, and the left engine, which had been impaired for months, couldn't take the strain. That plane should not have been used for training exercises with its maintenance issues.

The Navy (and Marines) have had a lot of cutbacks to save money. Some of the consequences of this have been cutbacks in maintenance and the increased use of flight simulators (to save fuel). It used to be that a Navy aircraft was repaired on a regular schedule, whether it needed the repair or not. (This caused its own set of problems, especially with the "black boxes" which were often not replaced correctly and would stop working.) Now, the repairs are on an as needed basis, and "need" seems to be an elastic term.
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bdab1973 Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. I have flown on one engine many times...
it's not the end of the world, especially for a fighter which has more than enough thrust to keep it airborne. People are losing sight that the guy flying the airplane only had a few hundred hours flying airplanes, period, and probably only a hundred or so in the F/A-18, perhaps less. Reading through the failures, he made rookie mistakes, some that most of us have made at some point in our lives, but fortunately for us we didn't have all the problems going on that his aircraft had. He probably had a handful in the cockpit, and likely was task saturated. An emergency like that would challenge any pilot. Losing one engine is cause for concern, but being on one engine and then having a bunch of other failures happening can lead to overload for pilot's that aren't experienced.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
21. Looks like some officers were sacrificial lambs. Hindsight gives one perfect vision n/t
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. From updated reports, 13 were disciplined/lost positions
The pilot is grounded and has not been disciplined in the same way because he was only a student pilot. All the same, the Marines don't mess around. They had to do something here because 4 people, including one man's entire family, died. This is extremely bad PR for the Marines and can greatly affect their community relations with San Diegans.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Agree "extremely bad PR for the Marines" but I stand by my opinion some were sacrificed. n/t
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
36. I don't disagree, although there was enough blame to go around.
This was a student pilot and many people on the ground led him the wrong way.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
26. Sounds like the Titanic disaster - a long chain of fuckups enabled the catastrophe to happen.
It wasn't one fuckup that doomed the Titanic.

Start with using cheap, brittle metal for the ship's hull and rivets.

They cut corners by making the bulkheads dividing Titanic's watertight compartments only go up to a lower deck.

The owner didn't want the decks too cluttered, so not enough lifeboats were on board.

People in provisioning were rushed, so the lookouts didn't get binoculars.

The rich passengers were allowed to hog the ship's radio for sending their messages, so the radio operator overlooked an iceberg warning.

The first officer wasn't trained in properly maneuvering the ship, so he reversed engines, which caused the ship to be unable to turn sufficiently to avoid the iceberg.

For that matter, the rudders on Titanic were too small, and couldn't adequately steer the ship.

There was insufficient training and drills on evacuation situations, so people panicked, lifeboats left the ship half-full, and there were near-riots.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
29. tragic all around...
don't know why they bother to train people for these situations only to have them go completely off-script...
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bdab1973 Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. All emergencies are "off-script"...
I have yet to experience an in-flight emergency that was scripted.
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unhappycamper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
31. The Navy Times reported this morning that 13 folks were punished for this F/U.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Yes. The local ABC affiliate reported the same.
I took notes of the initial news conference with the Marines.
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mentalsolstice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
32. K&R Thank you for this!
I worked at NAS Pensacola and one of its satellite fields for several years. I remember at NAS F-14s flying so low you felt like you could reach and touch them. For several years my desk looked out at a touch-n-go landing strip...interesting times.
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New_England_Patriot Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
33. ...and four people died.
This is sheer incompetence by the Army's "finest".

This didn't have to happen. The pilot's egotistical cluster-fuck of a brain refused to treat the situation seriously, which resulted in four people losing their lives.

...no criminal wrongdoing was found. Yeah, tell that to the family who's relatives are now dead.
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bdab1973 Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Hmmmm
First, it was the Navy, not the Army. And most people that attend pilot training are typically head-and-shoulders among the smarter people out there. I seriously doubt this had anything to do with the pilot's "ego". I think too many people base their assumptions of military pilots on watching Hollywood movies. Military pilots are typically very professional. The pilot in this case was a student in the F/A-18, meaning he wasn't yet even fully qualified and hadn't graduated the course yet. He was likely qualified to fly solo, obviously, but even with that, he wasn't highly experienced.

The situation listed above showed multiple systems failures on the F/A-18 that made it a difficult situation at best. He was inexperienced, and after the first engine failed, and the carrier told him to go to NZY, his home squadron probably told him to bring it on back to Miramar (where they could immediately start looking at the failed engine). It's a common situation in any aviation setting...if you lose an engine, and several fields are easily within reach, pilots will often consider going to home field because that's where their maintenance support is. I've done that myself. The problem is, you have to make a judgement call whether or not you can make it there safely on the remaining engine. 99% of the time, that answer would be yes, but sometimes that answer is no.

This young guy was probably heading to NZY when his home squadron said "bring it to Miramar". Now, if he was an experienced Hornet pilot, he could have made a better decision based on the compounded emergency with a pending fuel problem (that he probably wasn't aware exactly would result), and tell the guys at Miramar "no, I'm going to NZY, I have a hand-full of airplane". Instead, he did what many young, inexperienced pilots do...they trust what they assume is better judgement of the more experienced guys on the ground at Miramar (the squadron flying supervisor or equivalent). They just don't realize that although those pilots on the ground are likely very experienced, they aren't in the airplane, and they don't know 100% of what's going on with the jet.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. I think you've got it exactly.
This was exactly the impression I got from the news conference, and I couldn't have said it better myself. I feel badly for this young pilot; he didn't expect to be trained in an aircraft with TWO bad engines. Nobody does. It's like going to a driver's training school and being trained in the company car with bad brakes. You simply don't expect this kind of thing to happen, although it does. Back in the 1980s, when Northrop was still Northrop, several of their aircraft just fell out of the sky on routine training flights (like this one.) It turned out that the aircraft had a design flaw and there was testimony in front of John Glenn's subcommittee to that effect. Glenn was very upset because these were Air Force pilots who were crashing, and the Air Force is where Glenn started.

The Miramar pilot had two bad engines, was still in training, and lost contact with his ship's tower. It was natural for him to call Miramar where his squad was and take their orders. Remember, too, that this pilot could not see anything because of the marine layer in San Diego--it was only when he descended to 900 ft that he saw where he was and by then it was pretty much all over. The sad thing is that 2 seconds could have saved the family, the homes, and the F-18 would have landed in a canyon.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. Agreed except for the ego part, half of my family has been Navy for
many generations and I grew up around lots of military personnel and fighter pilots, without exception in my experience, are some of the most arrogant, egotistical people I've ever met. Now I haven't met all fighter pilots in all branches, so I'm sure there are some great people that pilot fighters and don't fit the stereotype, but to deny it is just silly.


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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. I've read thousands of posts on internet forums from "arrogant, egotistical people" who are grossly
ignorant of the topic being discussed.

This thread appears to have several such posts.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. It is possible that it is only the family and friends and friends of friends
(probably in the neighborhood of 100) that I've met has skewed my perspective, but that is statistically unlikely. Bear in mind that I've known some of these guys my whole life and like them to varying degrees, but there's something about that MOS that seems to inflate the ego.


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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. "inflate the ego"! Not nearly as much as getting elected to political office or appointed to cabinet
positions.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. I can accept that statement. n/t
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #34
52. Marine? nt
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. I think "criminal wrongdoing" may carry the idea of intent or direct disobedience of orders
No one directly disobeyed anyone and the pilot (and his squadron) certainly didn't intend to have the plane crash. This is an unbelievably disastrous screw up but not criminal.
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TommyO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Killing four people in this fashion is indeed criminal, IMHO.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. While it may feel criminal to you, it isn't technically a crime although
a case might have been made for criminal negligence IF the pilot had not been a trainee or if the Operations officer who directed the young pilot (at his Commander's orders) had known exactly how bad the F-18's condition was and had still demanded the pilot return to Miramar. And, at least this was the Marines: they don't mess around. Had it been the Army, we might never have known the full story.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. The fact that you refer to an F-18 pilot as "the Army's 'finest'"
Edited on Thu Mar-05-09 01:03 PM by Occam Bandage
suggests to me that you did not bother finding out the first thing about this case. Such as, you know, which branch of the military we're talking about.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Thank you! The F-18 is an old navy aircraft.
I hear the newer ones are really something. There is one they are working on with a monster engine. I can't remember its number though.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. That would be a Marine's "cluster-fuck of a brain".
Fitting many fighter pilot's egos into that tiny cockpit can cause problems as well.


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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. This pilot was in training and that is why he has only been grounded and not disciplined, yet
I think post #34 really got the situation from the pilot's perspective right on.
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