Ok. So under what conditions do you think a person should be able to come here and become a citizen?

[Smith_3]

I guess there are alot of different opinions about this here. So what do you think? Should non-US-born be able to come here and get citizenship at all? Should it require a certain amount of years of living here or a certain service to the country? Should we just keep all foreigners out? What is it?
:shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

1. One primary condition.

Labor is a constrained resource and inflation is out of control because the economy is growing faster than births. That has not been the case for a very long time.

... other than that, yeah pretty much keep all foreigners out.

[Smith_3]

10. How do you think America's economy would do if all foreigners left today?

Think it would work out well?

[Xithras]

14. Actually, it would

There would be a painful adjustment period, but historically the economy has always been BETTER for workers and the middle class when there's a labor shortage. Scarcity increases value, which drives up wages. Labor shortages also drive technological development as inventors try to work out ways to do more with less.

Einstein once wrote that the source of America's technological prowess was its perpetual labor shortage, and the creativity that shortage inspired within entrepreneurs.

[Deja Q]

96. Yet corporations are saying there are few qualified American workers, while driving down wages too.

[Eryemil]

108. Without taking into account that jobs would still be outsourced

You'd be left with a rapidly aging population and negative population growth.

[pampango]

25. "yeah pretty much keep all foreigners out"

:banghead:

We are the progressives, the non-xenophobes, right?

[superduperfarleft]

33. I'm sure he/she was just talking about the brown ones, so that makes it okay.

/sarcasm

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. Fail.

The force is weak with this one.

[lumberjack_jeff]

61. And the party of the working class too.

Big tent, and all that.

For some of us, the value of labor is not an abstraction.

[pampango]

76. "Big tent" but not a really "huge" tent, I guess.

Gotta keep those furiners' from ruining our country. Poor Americans are welcome in our Big Tent; poor non-Americans - not so much (US passport required for entry into the Big Tent).

"Sorry you guys lost out in the place-of-birth lottery. Immigration is such an outdated concept - good for our ancestors, but its time has come and gone."

For some of us, the value of human beings is not an abstraction.

[lumberjack_jeff]

85. The policies of a government are supposed to serve its citizens.

Yes, it's a big tent, and I hope we all agree that everyone has a human right to be treated conscientiously by their own governments.

I wouldn't expect someone else's government to elevate my interests above those of their own citizens.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

88. Do you believe that there should be a path to citizenship...

...for legal, long-term residents of a country?

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. A path? Yes.

At some point in that path there is a gate which opens and closes at pleasure of the citizens of that country.

[noamnety]

104. I believe that's the same logic we fell back on

when we turned away the St. Louis in 1939.

[lumberjack_jeff]

106. Yup. It's exactly the same.

Flee genocide? Write javascript?

Close enough to the same thing for the hand-wringers. :crazy:

[noamnety]

109. the same logic we fell back on

"The Great Depression had left millions of people in the United States unemployed and fearful of competition for the scarce few jobs available. It also fueled antisemitism, xenophobia, nativism, and isolationism. A Fortune Magazine poll at the time indicated that 83 percent of Americans opposed relaxing restrictions on immigration. "
http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/voyage.html

We haven't changed since then, even in the face of people fleeing genocide. One of our local mayors took the Roosevelt position when he heard Iraqi refugees might be planning to flee to our area.

[WillieW]

81. to late, they are already here

[Oregone]

34. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater

Yes, there are currently flaws that could be reformed and fixed. But to eliminate entry to "all foreigners", regardless of skill-set, is to cut off a major resource for building a country culturally, economically, and intellectually. Imagine, no more Madeleine Albrights, no more Albert Einsteins, no more Joseph Pulitzers....

[lumberjack_jeff]

50. ... and no more Ingmar Guandique's either.

But that's beside the point.

Immigration (legal or otherwise) should not outpace our economy's ability to employ us. To do otherwise degrades the value of labor.

[Oregone]

56. I think you are also assuming immigration always leads to a net increase in labor saturation

Whereas skilled worker immigration and investor class immigration can actually create jobs and cause a decrease in job demand (especially investor/entrepreneurship class-which I am not aware if the US has, but Canada does). Many skilled worker immigrants from India, believe it or not, cause a net job growth from starting businesses here (and no, I am not talking about H1-B Visa holders and other temporary workers, but those that come to live and stay).

Not everyone coming over "degrades the value of labor" as a rule. The solution isn't to eliminate immigration, and all its benefits. The solution is to reform the system such that those that do "degrade the value of labor" are no admitted.

[lumberjack_jeff]

60. Many of those tech entrepreneurs were educated in US schools.

Had that education been given to the citizen who was passed up, it'd be that citizen creating those jobs... and more likely to be choosing citizens to do them.

[Oregone]

62. I'm not sure why you are assuming that they were educated here

(except for, of course, the really wealthy ones, who are probably more wealthy than an average citizen who may not of been able to afford the education in the first place--but that is the point, these type of immigrants are not average; they are exceptional either intellectually or financially. They have something to bring to the table).

But I will say, as far as who the education should of been "given" to, thats really not entirely an immigration related issue. Its sort of a tangential argument that detracts from the honesty of the conversation.

What I am saying is that skilled workers and entrepreneurial/investor immigrants can definitely positively impact an economy and culture (If standards are raised and enforced).

Now taking care of a tangential side issue such as education, can help the country as a whole. But your argument is essentially, We can't have issue A happen, because issue B is dysfunctional (even though they are loosely related). Fix issue B, while you are fixing issue A, rather than use it as a crutch to deride skilled worker immigration.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is plenty to gain from immigration, if done properly. There is also plenty to gain from foreign students, if done properly.

Its the flagrant profit driven abuse and corruption that is the underlying problem here. Not the entire concept of immigration.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. It's not an assumption that many non-citizen tech entrepreneurs were educated in US schools.

they transitioned from student visas to h1-b visas to EB-5 visas.

But to step back a bit, we're conflating "immigration" with resident workers and students; those who simply want to work (or purchase education) here without necessarily becoming citizens.

The tiny baby is in an unnecessarily large tub of bathwater.

[Oregone]

67. Im not even talking about temporary workers....

Im talking about skilled worker immigrants. Im talking about those who have skills, money, education, assets, and the intent and desire to live in the United States and contribute to their society. Fuck H1-Bs and other temporary worker programs.

[lumberjack_jeff]

70. Okay, then there are basically two parts to the op's question.

q1: under what conditions can they come here?
a1: if we need them.

q2: how do they become citizens?
a2: if they've come here. See a1.

Besides, H1-B is the visa program for "skilled workers" who may or may not (it's considered a dual-intent visa) desire citizenship.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

90. Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses... *

* as long as we need them. Otherwise, fuck off darkie.

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. Isn't it ironic that the inscription is on a statue given us by old europe...

... in the hope that we'd continue taking in the tired and poor that they created?

Maybe Carlos Slim can build us a similar statue for placement in Arizona. Heaven knows, illegal immigration is a big money-saver for him.

"The Mexican government distributes a comic book which offers tips to illegal aliens emigrating to the United States <52> That comic book recommends to illegal immigrants, once they've safely crossed the border, "Don't call attention to yourself. ... Avoid loud parties. ... Don't become involved in fights." The Mexican government defends the guide as an attempt to save lives. "It's kind of like illegal immigration for dummies," said the executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, Mark Krikorian. "Promoting safe illegal immigration is not the same as arguing against it.".<51>"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

95. My God that's foul.

How do you sleep at night?

[lumberjack_jeff]

100. Well, thanks.

Once I gave up looking for work, anyway.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

101. Maybe you should try emigrating.

Perhaps you would have better luck finding a job in a different country.

[lumberjack_jeff]

103. Doubtful. They are a generally more enlightened bunch.

Carlos Slim is the second wealthiest person in the world, and he got that way by avoiding the taxes that would be required to support his fellow citizens, by offloading the problem onto someone else.

[Spider Jerusalem]

116. And where were your ancestors from, there?

Britain? Ireland? France? Germany?

And how many French immigrants do you really think there were to America in the 19th century? Or the 18th or 17th, for that matter? Not many. Very few in comparison to British, or German, or Italian, or Irish, or Polish, or Russian. The Statue of Liberty was given to the US by France in recognition of the friendship between our countries (they're our oldest ally, and we wouldn't have won the Revolution without them, in case you've forgotten). Nice distortion of history there.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

35. What about those who marry US citizens?

[NikolaC]

57. Exactly

My husband is Canadian and he wants to get his citizenship. By excluding people who are not from this country, it can possibly break up families. That is a selfish way to look at things. While I understand the frustration and I honestly believe that immigration policies and visas need a overhaul, being protectionist to the point of shutting everyone out is too wrong an idea to contemplate.

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. That's a good question.

The K1 visa is vulnerable to fraud.

I would say that so long as the spouse is married to the citizen, (s)he's entitled to remain (and work), and get preferential treatment when employment conditions merit opening the naturalization window.

[truebrit71]

49. Unless you are Native American YOU are the foreigner...

..have a safe trip home!

[lumberjack_jeff]

51. I am home. I was born here.

American is not a matter of genes.

[truebrit71]

53. Read my statement again. If you are NOT a American Indian YOU are the foreigner...

...and YOU need to go home...

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. Read once. Read twice.

Nope, still bullshit.

No roman blood flowing in those "truebrit" veins?

[truebrit71]

64. Are you deliberately being dense?

Very simple really. Try to keep up. If you are NOT a Native American you are a foreigner here because your ancestors came from elsewhere...Being born here AFTER the invasion of this country by the white man simply makes you an anchor baby and not much else...

No roman blood in my veins, plenty of French blood though...from the late 10th century...

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. Yes, I am.

Some of us are not as lucky as you to have come by it naturally.

:hi:

I was born here. That makes me a US citizen. By definition, in this country I am not a foreigner.

No one, in any country is "native" in the sense you mean, including "truebrits" of French descent. No ethnic group was "there first", regardless of where "there" might be.

[truebrit71]

74. You are missing the point. Never mind.

And yes, we are ALL foreigners here except for the Native Americans...(hence the name "Native").

What you really mean is all the RECENT foreigners should leave (a wonderfully progressive thing to say :eyes:)...I think the original occupants of this land would consider you just as foreign as me...

[lumberjack_jeff]

84. No one is original.

The consensus among anthropologists is that modern native americans displaced "Kennewick man", an 8000 year old skeleton who was most closely related to the Ainu of Japan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man

People are entitled to consider whomever they want outsiders. However, the laws and the constitution of the United States are unambiguous on this important point; You're full 'o crap.

You and I only differ on who is legitimate through counting generations.

[Warren DeMontague]

89. Um, they came here from somewhere else, too.

Sorry, but that argument is gibberish.

[SurfingScientist]

69. Skilled, eager immigrants played a major role in keeping this country ahead...

... look at the past century of research & discovery that is now called the American one.

The US has been a dominant economic and military force, in a major part because of its leadership in industry and technology.

Nuclear arms and power.
The Space Race.
The digital revolution.

Look at the names involved - the scientists, the inventors - many of them brilliant immigrants who, in their native countries, were persecuted, or had no resources to thrive.
They came here, eager, hungry, grateful for the opportunity, and contributed their knowledge, energy, leadership, resourcefulness to the US. They taught at your colleges and shared their knowledge with thousands of next-generation American leaders.
Without them, this country would be nowhere close to where it has been for the past century.

Of course, immigration needs to be regulated, and visas should not be used to recruit below-market price labor.

But if you fail to continue to attract the best science and technology leaders, of the future founders of leading industries, if the US is no longer the global center of innovation and ideas, then jobs for skilled workers, technicians, engineers that are located in the US will decline by a good fraction, the very jobs, industry infrastructure, skills that are your best weapon against having to compete in the global market against pennies-per-hour child labor.

Don't sacrifice that very special edge . Don't sacrifice that part of your culture out of economic fear.


I am a foreigner (German citizen, H1B visa, PhD in Germany, researcher in astrophysics) . I am no Einstein, but I have been working 80+ hours per week on a regular base, am leading science programs with NASA satellites, have volunteered to teach science to US minority kids, have mentored students' careers, have volunteered as a college martial arts teacher.

I am not here to take your money or jobs away, or for a better standard of living. My paycheck is a little higher than back home, but benefits like pensions/healthcare/free college for the kids back in Europe would easily make up for that.

I am here because this place had a culture of offering opportunity for those who wanted it, without so much of an age-based political hierarchy, giving resources and freedom to lead to those who work hard and excel.

And I have come to love this country, in all its diversity, variety of people, its beauty, wide open spaces, wild nature, its spirit.
In my little document bag that I carry on travel abroad, next to my passport, I carry a little blue book. It is a copy of the Constitution. The American one.
Because the US, by the ideas that it was founded on, is a fantastic and bold idea: A nation where freedom can thrive, setting people free to find the best in themselves.

This is why I am still here. And why I might end up staying a bit longer.

[lumberjack_jeff]

73. As xithras pointed out upthread, that innovation was necessary because labor was scarce.

[SurfingScientist]

77. Qualified labor will always be scarce in a country with a growing, leading tech industry.

Of course, the US should train more qualified workers/engineers/technicians/scientists - no arguing here.

But try and take the foreigners away from your companies and schools. That period of 'adjustment' to train equally qualified less-recent immigrants that was stated above will be what, 10-20 years?

That's not an adjustment period. It will be a deathblow to much US-based industry. It would shift research/development/production all to Asia because many companies won't be able to keep up, short of enough qualified workforce.

Result: a US where qualified jobs are limited to retail stores where ovserseas companies offer their products.

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. The same argument is made about farm labor.

Being forced to hire $12/hour americans to pick lettuce would be a death blow to their industry.

The tech world moves much faster than that. The technology changes so fast that the skills a student learns are obsolete upon graduation. The major, immediate adjustment would be in colleges who have become used to the cashflow of wealthy foreigners happily paying out of state tuition to get a foot in the H1-b door.

Setting aside the value of labor for a moment, progress itself is discouraged by unlimited access to labor.

Look at China. Their industrial base has primarily been fueled by demand for labor saving devices in the US.

[anonymous171]

72. Agreed. nt

[Heidi]

2. This doesn't answer your question, but here's the standard I must meet for Swiss citizenship:

1. Married to a Swiss citizen (citizenship used to be automatic for immigrant spouses of Swiss citizens but it's not anymore)
2. Language proficiency (can demonstrate proficiency in the official language of my canton of residence--Italian, in my case--in an interview with the state police)
3. Integration into the Swiss way of life (ties to the community count)
4. No threat to Swiss national security
5. In compliance with Swiss law

Technically, my village has the right to vote on my application for citizenship.

[LuvNewcastle]

3. I think that if someone is being persecuted

they should be allowed come here. Those who marry Americans (including gay couples) should be allowed in. Beyond that, I'm not really sure.

[Cleita]

4. Considering that this nation is non-native American in the majority,

I would say that immigration policies is what got most of us here. What do you think? Should we close the door after us? Should all American nationals go back to the country of their ethnic origins and leave the country to the original natives? Considering that what I think your post is about, that of keeping nationals from south of the border from coming here, those nationals are for the most part Native American. So who has more of a right to be here, them or us? Just playing devil's advocate here.

[Smith_3]

6. My post isn't anti-immigration at all.

I'm just curious about people's opinions.

[Hello_Kitty]

5. There must be full employment of U.S. citizens before work visas are issued.

No exceptions. Not even for the farms and meat plants who are 100% dependent on (often illegal) foreign workers. If you can't get Americans to work for you - "no matter what I pay" as you claim, then you need to change the conditions of your workplace so that they will.

"Jobs that Americans won't do" is a racist, elitist, and utterly offensive statement. On every level. If an American "won't do" the job, there's usually a damn good reason why.

[BuyingThyme]

7. Yep.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

16. Wow.

Since that's never happened, ever, in the history of this country that's a really convenient way of shuttering the borders. Good thing that policy wasn't in place from the beginning, or this would be one empty fucking country.

[Hello_Kitty]

23. Yeah, good thing there is always an underclass of desperately impoverished people

So that low wage employers have a steady supply of quasi-slaves to exploit, huh? Wouldn't want to force them to pay decent wages and provide safe conditions, would we? That would be sooooo xenophobic. :eyes:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

26. Plenty of immigrants come here for education or to work in a profession.

But that doesn't fit the narrative, so we can just ignore that, right?

[Hello_Kitty]

31. And plenty of companies want to pay as little as they can

And take as many shortcuts on safety as they can get away with. But that doesn't fit your Flat Earth fantasy so you just ignore that.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

38. Oh yes, banning all immigration will fix that. n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

40. Well increasing it sure as shit won't. eom

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

43. Did I suggest increasing it?

No, I simply suggested that banning it was a fucking retarded idea. It's also a good way to get all overseas Americans expelled from their current countries of residence.

[treestar]

86. that's what happened in the 19th century

And probably why most of us are here.

What are these people to do, die? We wouldn't want any "slaves" or low-class people around!

Any worker who is here has protections, unless they are illegal. That's WHY they work for less. If they had to be paid minimum wage, they would not undercut anybody.

This is what people do to survive. Far be it from me to declare people far worse off than I am have no right to do that or are victimizing me because they are. It's a safety valve - who need revolutions and riots in distant countries? It's not like it would do us much good. And given our track record, we'd get involved and it would cost us anyway.

[Oregone]

27. Aside from work visas though, what about skilled worker immigrants?

Im not talking about people who come here temporarily to get jobs, but those who work their way through the immigration process as skilled, educated, proficient citizens who will contribute to society? Why ever close the border to them?


Im not 100% familiar with the US immigration system...I think there is a difference between work visas and skilled workers. Though Im from the US, Ive immigrated as a skilled worker to Canada. I could never see any reason why any country would reject skilled workers. The amount of scrutiny those people are exposed to, and the high standards, are ridiculous. Skilled workers are the bread and butter, and definitely contribute to economies.

[Hello_Kitty]

36. Yes but relying on the ability to import skilled workers

Leads to less incentive to create skilled workers among native-born citizens. That's exactly what's been happening here. I mean, why bother investing billions of dollars on education and training to raise American kids to be an engineers and software developers when you can let some other country pay to educate a workforce, import those workers, and even pay them less than their American counterparts? Thanks to "globalism" U.S. companies have abdicated their responsibility to be good citizens. Always ask yourself; Qui bono?

[Oregone]

42. I guess I always thought of immigrants as a garnish, not the base

But yes, thats a problem if a country won't invest in its own workers and just wants to import skilled workers. I don't think that is happening here though. We have skilled workers in the US that are getting replaced by H1-B temporary workers that work for less, not skilled immigrants with better skill-sets. I do see the flaw if the country is not to be trusted in the first place to manage its citizens. But if thats the case, you have more important things to worry about than immigration.

[Hello_Kitty]

45. Immigration is but one facet of it.

It's not, by any means, the cause of the problem. And yes, right now skilled workers are being replaced by visa holders, not because of lack of skill but because they will work for less. Which puts the lie to the claim by companies that they are facing a "shortage" of talent. That's the present situation but we may be facing a true lack of skills in this country in the future because young people are discouraged from seeking technical degrees because they don't believe they can get viable employment with them. Add to that rising tuition and budget cuts to school systems making it increasingly difficult for an American kid to get an education that will make them competitive with people in other countries.

[superduperfarleft]

32. So my wife, who is a Canadian citizen for now, and working on her US citizenship

Should not be allowed to work in the five or six years it takes for her to become a citizen?

And yet the xenophobes on this website will scream "But I'm not a xenophobe!" whenever they get called on it. Thank you for at least being honest. :eyes:

[Hello_Kitty]

39. Is your wife here on a work visa or because she is married to you?

My comment was about work visas.

BTW, I love how you cheap labor apologists always play the "xenophobe" card like we can't see right through it. I'm sure that, whatever it is you do, there's someone in another country who will do it for less so why don't you just go ahead and give them your job? Put your money where your sanctimonious mouth is.

[superduperfarleft]

41. Or maybe I don't like to write off all furriners as the cause of our problems.

You and your Minutemen buddies are just the "No Irish/No Chinese" of the 21st century.

If she was just here on a work visa, what of it?

I love how you nationalist xenophobes play the "cheap labor" card like we can't see right through it.

[Hello_Kitty]

44. So I see you're not going to give up your job.

I had to give up mine. To the foreign worker I had to train before I got laid off last year. BTW, I have no resentment whatsoever toward the man who replaced me, and I never have, so there goes your "nationalist xenophobe Minutemen" bullshit.

Newsflash: Embracing all this "globalism" doesn't make you hip, multicultural, and tolerant, it makes you an idiot. Other countries restrict immigration to protect their industries. Including Canada. Only in America do we have morons clamoring to open the borders wide and acting like it's beneficial our economy.

[superduperfarleft]

46. Who's clamoring to "open the borders?"

I'm certainly not. Our immigration system is burdensome, expensive, and arbitrary, and you only want to make it harder to punish the immigrants and not the companies that are hiring them.

Saying that no work visas should be issued until our unemployment rate hits 0%, as you did in your OP, is completely unreasonable. I'm not looking to prove how ultra-liberal I am, I'm refusing to side with the xenophobes who for some reason believe that Americans are the only ones with a right to feed themselves, especially since many of these immigrants are coming here because we've fucked up their economies (Mexico, for instance).

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

94. Nobody's clamoring to open the borders.

This is the same stupid straw man that gets thrown up every time someone - *gasp* - suggests that perhaps kicking all of the immigrants out of the country isn't the solution to our problems.

Well, the right-wing sees ignorant working class xenophobes as easy prey, and they'll do their best to co-opt those people. It's already happening in the UK, with right-wing nationalists using the union anti-immigration stance as a recruiting tool. It'll happen here soon enough, judging by the attitudes being expressed around here in the past few days.

[LeftyMom]

120. Well yeah. She's totally the cause of all of our economic woes.

;)

:hi:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

8. I'm fine with the way it is now.

Our standards are more or less in line with most other Western democracies. We're more difficult than some, but easier than others.

Unfortunately, the typical ignorant, xenophobic posts are showing up in this thread. Well, I guess the Republicans get to blame minorities and poor people for the economic crisis while the Democrats blame immigrants and foreigners. What a lovely time to be alive.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

9. I just can't get worked up about immigration

My family entered the US illegally, sailed to Quebec, took the train to British Upper Canada (Ontario) and was smuggled into Chicago via a great lakes barge out fear a relative would have at best been quarantined or at worst deported had they arrived at Ellis Island.

Unless your name is John Redcorn - get over it.

[Smith_3]

11. I'm not complaining about immigration.

My opinion actually is that migration in any direction should be made as easy as possible.

[lukasahero]

12. Wow - reading these replies and thinking where am I, Free Republic?

Oh no wait, it's DU. I forgot, all the best and brightest come out when it's time to talk about Indians and Mexicans.

[burythehatchet]

18. Quite true. I tried "enlightening" a few of them, but to no avail. The bigoty

is just as strong on this side as on the Puke side. It just hurts more here.

[backscatter712]

19. Very true.

Too many people act like the residents of South Park in the Goobacks episode - "DEY TOOK UR JERBS!!!"

Read my post below for my response.

I found that meeting a few of those "dirty Mexicans," talking to them, hearing about their families, hearing their stories really enlightened me.

[lightningandsnow]

20. This.

[Jamastiene]

13. We should offer political asylum to those who are being persecuted unfairly

in their country. And if someone from another country learns at least the basics about America and what she stands for, which most immigrants already know better than we do, they should be allowed to take an oath to stay loyal to the basic concept of what our country stands for and be citizens.

I fail to see any problem with immigrants coming here to live and become citizens, except those certain jerks that perpetrated 9/11. Those assholes didn't need to be here, but others don't deserve the scorn they get.

There are plenty of people from all over the world who love this country. Some of them love it more than many of us who were born here do...or at least they appreciate what she stands for better than many who were born here do and they know our history better than we do and care more than many of us do.

I just can't agree with hating immigrants. They are just people just like us. They just want a chance in life and some freedom. :wtf: is the problem with that?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

47. The Land of Immigrants has always had a problem with immigrants

And for better or worse, Progressives throughout each movement have always had Nativists within their ranks.

It's an understandably tough balance to preserve. Immigration does impact our labor force. However, sometimes concern for wages leads to xenophobia or xenophobia is hidden beneath a veil of "protection of the work force" and you get things like the Chinese Exclusion Act.

I wonder how much support something that replaced the word "Chinese" with "Mexican" would get.

[pampango]

79. Well said. Opposition to immigration is hardly new nor is the phenomenon of progressives

lining up with nativists. (Socialists and Minutemen breaking bread, as it were.)

If one accepts that immigrants produce more economic wealth than they consume, that extra wealth is available for all. It is up to us to restructure our society so that extra wealth does not just go to the wealthy, but is shared equitably throughout society. The current inequitable distribution of income and wealth in our society is not the fault of an immigrant.

My impression has been that progressives believed that the Chinese Exclusion act was a nativist and xenophobic (if not racist) law. When you posit a Mexican Exclusion Act, however, I wonder how popular that indeed might be with many progressives.

[Jack Bone]

15. Military service should count.

If they join the military and defend this great nation, IMHO that should guarantee citizenship.

[backscatter712]

17. It should be a hell of a lot easier.

One of our country's big problems is that we have our border policies completely bass-ackwards. We allow products and materials to move freely, undermining our own manufacturing and industry, while at the same time, putting stiff controls on the movement of people.

What would work better is imposing tariffs on stuff, while allowing people the freedom of moving in and out of the country. That way, there's lots of industry in this country - plenty of jobs for everyone, and more incentives to treat workers well.

Movement of people is so restricted that there is a thriving black market in illegal immigration and undocumented labor, and businesses use that to undercut legitimate work and drive wages down. If all a person had to do to enter the country was flash a passport at customs, fill out some paperwork and go through a low-level security check, and then he could get a legal job on the same playing field as citizens, that removes one way that employers can game the system to force us into a race to the bottom. Put tariffs on imports of finished goods, to create financial motive to make stuff here, and I'll guarantee that there's enough work to go around that we won't have to worry about a little extra competition from immigrants.

As far as citizenship goes, like I said, entering the country should be easy - many of our ancestors just jumped on a boat, sailed over, filled out some paperwork on Ellis Island, and were welcomed to America. It used to be a lot easier. Getting citizenship should be a matter of learning English, remaining in the country for a few years, keeping your nose relatively clean (a few misdemeanors and even a first-offense-DUI are forgivable, armed robbery gets your imprisoned, then deported,) and taking the oath.

I like that idea. Instead of free movement of goods and draconian rules reducing people's freedom of travel to nothing, make it so people are free to travel (freedom of travel is an American value, isn't it?) and put some rules and tariffs on the movement of stuff, so our economy isn't undermined.

[blues90]

80. There is no clear cut answer but part of what you said is not true

"As far as citizenship goes, like I said, entering the country should be easy - many of our ancestors just jumped on a boat, sailed over, filled out some paperwork on Ellis Island, and were welcomed to America. It used to be a lot easier. Getting citizenship should be a matter of learning English, remaining in the country for a few years, keeping your nose relatively clean (a few misdemeanors and even a first-offense-DUI are forgivable, armed robbery gets your imprisoned, then deported,) and taking the oath."

My mother came here from Europe in the mid 20's and went through Ellis island but one very important point you left out. They had to have a sponsor , someone who would feed and house them if they could not go it their own and they had to go through a health check and agree to become a citizen , it was not a ship drop off and a day and you were off working.

Beside this just how many people can this country hold , it's not like it is 1920 in the same way that a great depression today would look nothing like it did back in the 20's.

I think many people here are talking out of their ass and have no idea of what the US population is in numbers . Where do you draw the line ?

Wouldn't it be better to help other countries build a job base and an economy for fair trade and education rather than the USA being the land that takes on all the worlds work force?

I can't just drive over to Canada and get a job or Germany or many other countries . You need to wait a few years, have a viable work record and enough money to make it 6 months and job contacts.

I find here in Los Angeles that most immigrants stay in areas with their own people just as they did when I lived in Chicago many years ago in the 50's and 60's . It's not a melting pot by any stretch .

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

21. U.S. Immigration Laws need to be better enforced and

something needs to be done about the huge backlog of green card applications pending for visa holders who are in the U.S. legally. When it takes nearly 10 or more years for certain categories of immigrants to obtain a green card something is wrong.

Please note that you cannot come to the U.S. and immediately claim citizenship. You have to go through some steps in between, some of which can take decades, and not everyone qualifies.

As a legal immigrant to the U.S., I have no problem with the enforcement of the laws currently on the books with regards to employment eligibility, employment verification, asylum/refugee status, non-immigrant visas, immigrant visas, etc. I also have no problem on the enforcement of illegal vs. legal entries, as well as visa overstays. Emmployers should be audited more often by the Dept of Labor, ICE and USCIS to ensure compliance with the law.

I wouldn't dream of entering the U.S. without a proper visa and, if I did, I would understand that it is the U.S. Government's right to deport me because I am in violation of its immigration laws. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." One of the precepts of living in another country is that you must respect its laws. I don't think some of the laws are fair or just (the wet foot/dry foot policy for Cuban immigrants, for instance), but I must respect them nonetheless.

I am a guest in the U.S. and in order to retain my privilege of residing permanently in the U.S. as a legal immigrant alien, I must abide by its laws. The granting of an immigration status from a nation to an immigrant is not a right; it is a privilege. It is a privilege that, personally, has taken me 14 long years to acquire. Prior to that, I was in a lawful non-immigrant status.

I could have done things differently instead of waiting 14 years to work legally. I could have bought a fake social security card (one without the "Not authorized for employment" language on it reserved for those without employment eligibility); I could have worked under the table; I could have overstayed my visa, instead of becoming a professional student and incurring a lot of debt for my family. I could have done all of that and, in the process, earn a living. But I didn't because I knew the repercussions my choices would have on my future.

I believe the avenues currently in place for becoming a naturalized citizen are fine as they are. I am not a US citizen. One day, I will have to become one in order to take advantage of social security (which I pay into, since I am working in the U.S.).

Now if you are asking about legal entry in the U.S. and availability of visas, that is an entirely different question. I like the system that is in place now. What I do not like (as I mentioned earlier) is the time it takes to go through the bureaucracy, the costs associated with the process and the lack of enforcement of laws currently on the books. If laws were enforced, employers who employ illegal alien workers would be penalized at $10,000 per worker, in addition to civil and possibly criminal penalties.

I think the U.S. has always been enriched by people from all over the world. Many professors, researchers and scientists hail from other parts of the world; many artists, performers and athletes enrich the culture every single day. These are people who have followed the law by obtaining a visa and possibly applied for green cards or even become U.S. citizens (note: I work with plenty of people in these categories, so I know their stories personally).

I have also worked closely with Latin American immigrants in H-1A status (seasonal workers); all are wonderful people who are employed by the same employer year after year in H-1A status, at great cost to their employer, because they enrich the company they work for and the rural community where they live. They are not educated; some are barely literate. They certainly need the money for their families in Mexico and Guatemala. They could have chosen the path chosen by many: to enter illegally. But they know the risks: living in secrecy, living in fear of deportation, depriving their children of a future (because many children whose parents immigrated illegally are unable to obtain scholarships for college, etc.) and likely never to become U.S. citizens.

What do all of the above have in common? They respect the laws of the U.S.

[snooper2]

22. We should model our citizenship laws after Canada-

I would model our health care after the Canadian system as well but thats another thread :)

[Oregone]

28. Their standards are so high for immigrants, most Canadians wouldn't even pass the tests

That probably is the reason immigrants have such high rates of intergenerational mobility there (other than language barriers). I think Canada has one of the highest, if not the very highest, immigration rates per capita now.

[readmoreoften]

24. Far as I'm concerned: if you're here, you're from here.

Immigration from Mexico has gone since NAFTA allowed multinationals to eat up Mexican land and basically displace 28 million indigenous people. The Mexican people didn't vote for that. We did. The world is interconnected now.

Personally, I'd like to see labor have as much power to cross borders as capital does. I'd also like to learn from Latin-American labor activists. I don't buy (not for one second) that immigrants are scab labor. Ethnocentrism and racism divide the working class.

[superduperfarleft]

52. Best post on the thread. Thank you. n/t

[TBF]

92. Rec this post. I've seen the phrase "open borders for people, closed

borders for bananas". I agree with that.

[readmoreoften]

98. Ah, but the phrase belongs to Organization Politique, not me. They fight for

undocumented workers in France. Good people.

[TBF]

110. I wondered where that was from. Thanks! n/t

[napi21]

29. I like the Canadian rules, even though they adversly affected me.

They have a test that calculates a score. Many things are considered, like age, education, experience, etc/ and more % weight is given to people with experience in jobs that Canada needs. You must reach a certain score to be considered for citixenship.

The reason my huddy & I did'nt reach the necessary score was because at the very end of the test, you have to subtract your age X (?) from your final score, and we were too old! I don't remember the number you had to multiply your age by...sorry.

We were very serious about moving to Canada after Shrub stole the election.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

30. I think you'd need quite a complex flow chart or venn diagram.

And I think "coming here (and working)" and "becoming a citizen" are probably rather different things.

Factors that should influence them include, but are not limited to:

:-Are how safe are you in your country of citizenship? If the answer is "in a great deal of danger", you should have a right to claim asylum and to work, and eventually but possibly not automatically to citizenship if the situation persists.

:-Are you married/related to US citizens? I think that people who are should clearly get priority for US citizenship/residence.

:-Have you broken the law? I think that people with non-trivial criminal records in their own countries should be discriminated against in applications both for immigration and citizenship, and immigrants who break the law in their country of immigration should be discriminated against in applications for citizenship (this includes discriminating against illegal immigrants who are already in a country, in favour of people applying to immigrate legally).

:-Do you have a job lined up? People coming into a country to do a specific job which they already have a contract lined up for should be discriminated in favour of compared to people coming into a country to look for work when it comes to emmigration, although possibly not when it comes to citizenship.

:-How long have you lived here? Non-citizens who have lived legally in a country for a long time should get preference for citizenship; illegal immigrants who have lived in a country illegally for a long time should be discriminated in favour of compared with more recent illegal immigrants when deciding who gets an amnesty and who gets deported.

:-I can see arguments both for and against discriminating on grounds of fluency in one or more of a country's native languages in applications for emmigration and citizenship. On balance, I think that it probably shouldn't be a major factor when applying to emmigrate temporarily, but probably should be taken into account when applying for citizenship.

[KG]

37. an open book, multiple choice quiz.

it's amusing to note that because of the tests immigrants must pass to become citizens, they are more educated about what means to be an amerixan citizen than most natives.

[dustbunnie]

54. Every prosperous country has an obligation to take in refugees -

as it's the morally correct thing to do. Most western countries do take in their fair share of the persecuted and the suffering. Those policies should remain in place, worldwide.

I favor the Canadian immigration policies as well. They're quite strict, but do make room for a wide variety of folks to enter legally. The policies are strict because as a socialist-minded country, with universal health care for all, the primary responsibility is to the citizens, from the youngest to oldest. These kind of services can't be maintained with overly wide open border policies.

[killbotfactory]

55. We are all humans and the Earth belongs to us all.

If someone is living here they should be considered a citizen. What gives anyone the right to claim exclusive ownership of land and resources, or draw imaginary borders all over the place over land that existed millions or billions of years before human even existed as a species? Simply ending economic and political oppression that our government and businesses directly help perpetuate will ease undesirable immigration.

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. Cool! I'm thirsty, where do you keep our beer? n/t

[readmoreoften]

99. Germany, Ireland, and the Czech Republic mostly. /nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

107. Dang. Can I borrow some of our money for plane fare? n/t

[dustbunnie]

111. Do tell. What are the policies?

[killbotfactory]

117. I think I left some in your fridge

Don't drink it, it's mine.

[dustbunnie]

66. You have two different thoughts there -

Culture and language are beautiful things. The fact that we are a diverse world is lovely. No need to change that. Borders serve a purpose in both the administering of services, as well as providing community to people. Open borders to all and you have a one, big, world shanty town.

One world government seeks only to exploit the poor further. Just under one big tent, rather than the six or ten currently at play. You speak like a brainwashed idealist.

Ending economic and political oppression depends on giving power back to smaller communities/countries, not furthering this one world government agenda.

[killbotfactory]

119. People tend to stick to their own cultures

People wouldn't be flocking here if there were opportunities to make a living free of oppression in their own countries or communities. In the mean time they are still people who are forced to make a living, and so long as they do that without harming anybody I don't mind living next to them.

[anonymous171]

71. The ability to speak English fluently. nt

[cynatnite]

75. Work and don't break any laws. That's all I require. n/t

[harun]

78. The existing law and process in my opinion are practical and show compassion

Not breaking up families, allowing family sponsorship (takes a while and is expensive but it works) and ensuring they have people here to help them before they come is prudent.

Same for the citizenship laws.

[Edweird]

82. We already have a system in place. It just isn't being enforced. Compare our immigration to Canada.

[treestar]

83. Human migration is just a force that has to be dealt with

People will go where they can make a living. Americans would do it, too, if they thought they could do better somewhere else. As for citizenship, make it for those who showed loyalty by living in the country and who want to do it - it can't be easy to abandon one's native country.

In the 21st century, these restrictions work for the corporatists, not the workers. They just exploit people's fears of foreigners "taking their jobs" in order to get the workers to place these restrictions on themselves.

This country became the richest country in the world, and it had relatively unrestricted immigration.

[LanternWaste]

97. Work hard...

Work hard if one can. Be helpful and generous to our neighbors. Be civil and polite.

But I realize that's my idealism talking-- because were my regulations the actual case, 99% of *all* Americans would be deported...






I'm in a blessed minority as I happen to believe that those imaginary red and blue lines on maps have resulted in more death, more starvation, and more inhumanity on this planet than all other man-made causes combined.

[McCamy Taylor]

102. Death match battle like Thunderdome. US citizens vs. would be citizens.

Those of us who are citizens of the new Roman Empire have to constantly prove that we are the evilest son's of bitches around or we get sent to third world hell holes and some immigrant gets to take our place and send us genetically modified terminator seed. No exemption due to wealth or prestige and its hand to hand combat. Age and gender matched.

It is only fair.

:headbang:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

105. And the Pay-Per-View fees would pay for the bank bailouts.

"This Immigrant Thunderdome Deathmatch is sponsored by AIG. AIG - When you Care Enough to Bail Out the Very Best."

:evilgrin:

[Evoman]

112. Ha! How about this: any person from any other country can challenge an American of their choice

to a contest. The American can pick the contest. The challenger gets 2 weeks to study up on the challenge and practice.

Whoever wins, stays. Whoever loses, goes to the shitty country.

So basically, your challenged on whatever you think you do best.

If your a lazy fuck who isn't good at anything, then your toast.

[mwooldri]

113. It can work both ways you know...

... take the European Union. People worried in Western Europe that the "cheap labour" from the former Soviet Bloc countries would overwhelm the systems and crowd out the jobs in the West.

Yes, initially when the borders were opened there was a rush - plenty of people coming from Poland to the UK and France to work. However, turns out that a lot of Poles figured out that the grass was somewhat greener their side and went back.

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. INS is pretty clear on it

having gone through the process let me enlighten you to this little factoid

MOST naturalized Citizens understand US Civics better than native born

Nothing personal, but we are tested on it

yesterday Justice O'Connor said that only 1\3 of US Citizens know what are the three branches of gub'mint

I had to ask.. well out of that 1\3, how many are naturalized Associate Justice?

Now you can go google the requirements, they are pretty straight forwards and the country benefits overall

[Motown_Johnny]

115. There are laws in place. Maybe if we just followed and enforced them for a while we could figure out

what changes would need to be made.

At this point we have no reliable information on which to make an informed decision.

[Political Heretic]

118. I have no fracking idea.

That is why I don't debate immigration policy.

:hi: