Why Is It Ok To Seize Assets in Drug Busts, But Not Thieves Like Madoff & K.Lay

[we can do it]

and the Wall Street and banking thieves - they have ruined peoples lives more so than they can ever claim drugs have, yet they keep what they've Stolen. Time to stop they hypocrisy and return the stolen goods to the people.

:mad:

[havocmom]

1. Good question

:thumbsup:

[appal_jack]

62. Indeed, good question, but

Indeed, good question, but part of the answer is that it IS NOT OK to seize assets without due process during a drug bust or any other enforcement action.

Our Founding Fathers fought a revolution and drafted a fine Constitution that EXPLICITLY PROHIBITS the government seizing property without due process. In fact, they felt so strongly about this issue that they touched upon it in Amendments 4,5,6,7,8,9, and 10 of the Bill of Rights. Had they stated it any more often, they might have been accused of being downright repetitive.

And yet, the So-called-War on Some-Drugs has rolled all this back.

100% bullshit!

Now, don't get me wrong: following a full due-process set of hearings, trials, civil suits, etc. I hope that Madoff and his ilk pay every asset they have ever touched or even imagined touching.

But I still support the inalienable rights that we are to enjoy as Americans (and for that matter, as human beings).

-app

[navarth]

2. DAMN good question. eom

[polichick]

3. It's all about the culture war imo - the powers that be can't imagine having...

...their booze or prescription pills or, God forbid, their money seized ~ but those dirty hippies shouldn't have those bad drugs.

[we can do it]

7. What Would the Dare Cops Drive Then?

I am about sick of seeing those idiots driving those gas-sucking hogs around when they've proven the Dare program is ineffective.

[polichick]

9. Reminds me of Reagan's "Just Say No" program...

That administration had a boozefest at the WH like none other while preaching for pot smokers to just say no ~ what hypocrisy!

[we can do it]

12. Like Kids Are Going To Think Any of Those People Are Cool & Listen To Them

raygun and his hollywood partiers preaching family values-after ignoring his own kid.... its all ok for them, not us commoners, though.

[Royal Sloan 09]

4. k&r eom

[we can do it]

5. Is There Any Way We Can Get This Changed? The Time Definately Seems Right

[cascadiance]

25. Well there already have been CEO punching incidents...

... like the Lehman CEO getting his lights punched out at a health club.

And it's just a matter of time before the games and toys like the following "evolve" like other games have...



http://www.encyclocentral.com/38448-Smash_Me_Bernie_Kill_Madoff_Toy_Company_Launches_In_Fair_Wear_Red_Devil_Suit.html

"Kill the CEO" http://gamership.com/kill-the-ceo

And then reality will evolve just like those games will, and it makes you wonder what will happen then. Will we see a return to the days of monarchy where they surround themselves with fortified walls like castles to protect themselves from the little people if it goes further than this?

[we can do it]

26. I Wouldn't Mind a Moat Sometimes, It Might Save Some of My Baby Plants

from the mailman's big feet, he seems to need to tromp through my garden when there's plenty of grass and pathways to use.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

6. Because drug dealers (except big Pharma) don't make

campaign contributions or play golf at your country club.

[reggie the dog]

61. sure they do

the big ballers are fucking millionaires man...

[yellerpup]

8. Can we get a petition going with this question?

The money went somewhere. Somebody has it and that can be the first way we taxpayers can start being repaid for the bailout. Recover the stolen property and return it to the true owners. At this point, it couldn't be done individually in most cases, but you make an excellent point. Let's have it back! K&R! :kick: :kick: :kick:

[we can do it]

11. It Definately Went Somewhere - The Offshoring Wealth Is BS Too

This isn't just happening here either - its all over the world.....who would we petition? I think that's a great idea.

[yellerpup]

14. Attorney General?

I'm a rookie at anything but signing petitions. The offshore nations who hold our wealth, I am willing to bet, will be happy to trade a relationship with one asshole who wants to keep it all for himself for the goodwill of a nation, especially when it is in the name of Justice.

[we can do it]

15. I Sign Em All the Time- No Clue How To Start One That Would Be Effective

[yellerpup]

17. Let's see if someone who does know how pops into this thread

and makes a suggestion. If not, tomorrow we'll ask for help. I have to sign off for tonight or we could do it now. I share your frustration and your simple question puts into words what (I think) millions of people want to know. We deserve to know. We must never forget that "We the People..." ARE the government. Thanks for the inspiration. I'll check back tomorrow.

[we can do it]

18. Thanks- Good Night!

[yellerpup]

63. Hi again. I relapsed back into the flu

after walking home in the cold wind yesterday. I was thinking if we can frame the question just right maybe we can get one of the organizations like Democratic.com to send out an e-petition, or maybe Michael Moore's website. I'll check in again when I'm better.

[we can do it]

66. Take Care of Yourself

we need you around here

[Robbien]

10. Assets are being seized

The problem is that there isn't very much left after Madoff spent most of it.

For example, realtors are showing the Madoff apartment while Madoff sits off it a dark corner somewhere.

[BuyingThyme]

13. If you fart on the wrong side of the street, they can take your car.

But if you steal billions of dollars from a pallet, you're immune from prosecution.

[we can do it]

16. Oh I Forgot About the Billions Driven Off In a Truck In Iraq

the shit just keeps piling up

[backscatter712]

19. Because they're rich, that makes them special.

See, we're just little people. Taxes are for little people, and civil forfeiture is for little people...

[XOKCowboy]

20. Better Lawyers. NT

[wackywaggin]

35. Exactly!!

I would add that they pay for the lawyers with their stolen goods.

[Gabi Hayes]

21. the mechanism exists....all that needs be done is apply it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5200750

[JDPriestly]

22. Because Madoff and Lay hire more expensive and just plain more

attorneys.

[we can do it]

23. Like the Drug Company Tried To Wear Down the Muscian Who Lost Her Arm

I was happy for her she finally prevailed -

[sarcasmo]

64. Bingo.

[gristy]

24. You want to seize Madoff?

Yeah, he should be in jail. But they should seize his assets too.

[we can do it]

27. I didn't really word that right, but it's close!

[NAO]

28. Crime in the Streets is much less costly than Crime in the Suites

But (and this does not HAVE to be the case) government is a tool of the wealthy and so street crimes, involving hundreds or thousands of times less money, are prosecuted much more heavily.

As a bonus feature, focusing people's attention on Crime in the Streets also serves as a diversion and tends to evoke conservative tendencies in voters. (e.g. Nixon's "Law and Order".)

[readmoreoften]

29. Because the high level dealers and the criminal elected officials

want their stuff back from the low level flunky dealers? :shrug:

[SoCalDem]

30. Drugs are Eeeeevil..and the others?...well

It;s just "biddnes"..nothing personal..(except for the part where the people regulating/ investigating/ prosecuting "might" just be personal friends/investment buds, of the people they are supposed to be watching..

[Greyhound]

31. Because that kind of theft is usually committed by the parasite class

and we never punish members of that class.

It is all about class, always has been.

[we can do it]

33. Parasite Is the Correct Word, Stiil the Poor Are Blamed for Everything

[Greyhound]

44. Yes and yes. Kick.

[pnwmom]

32. Madoff's assets ARE being seized. HIs wife's too, according to something

I read yesterday.

[Cleita]

36. Yes, but he's still going to be allowed to keep several million.

What I would like to see, is these white collar criminals to be stripped of everything and thrown out in the street. Let's see how they make out on Social Security, or a minimum wage job with no health care and benefits.

[we can do it]

38. Just Like They Do When They Foreclose On Us Regular Folks

or maybe better yet seize it, auction it off and return the proceeds...they can keep their undies and not much else.

[pnwmom]

39. Martha Stewart was a white collar criminal. Should she have been thrown out

into the street with nothing after she served her sentence?

[we can do it]

41. Martha Did Not Hurt Millions - She Was Made An Example For Voting "D"

[pnwmom]

43. Of course she didn't. I was responding to the statement about white collar

criminals, which seemed a bit broad-brushed to me.

[we can do it]

45. I See What You're Saying - I Was Only After the "Robber Barons"

[Cleita]

42. Apples and Oranges. She did do her time in prison, which I don't see

these other criminals doing and she didn't ruin peoples lives. There is a big difference in the degree of the crime here. Remember the punishment should fit the crime and frankly I think Martha was punished more stringently than many others, who have done the same thing.

[pnwmom]

46. Then we agree. When you said "white collar criminals" you were speaking

of one subset -- the Madoffs of the world.

But the term covers people like Martha, too, and even Don Siegelman -- both Democrats targeted for political reasons.

[Cleita]

48. I think the word criminals covers what I'm saying. Martha did not commit

crimes as I see it. She just broke the law. I mean how often do you break the law in a week? We all do just driving around, going over the speed limit, running red lights occasionally. That doesn't make us criminals.

[pnwmom]

51. The law doesn't make that kind of distinction. Someone who was convicted

of a (white collar) crime is a (white collar) criminal.

[Cleita]

53. Yeah, whatever. There still is degrees of criminality and running a

billion dollar ponzi scheme is quite a different crime from getting insider tips on what stocks to buy, which is done quite regularly by almost everyone who invests. I'm with we can do it who said she went to jail for voting D.

[liberation]

59. Wow talk about lack of context...

But I assume that using the proportionality of the crime, which is what the original poster was talking about, would impact severely the little "concern" racked that you had going there...

[pnwmom]

65. Here is the context you seem to have overlooked.

What I was responding to was a post that said:

"What I would like to see, is these white collar criminals to be stripped of everything and thrown out in the street. Let's see how they make out on Social Security, or a minimum wage job with no health care and benefits."

I was pointing out that such a broad brushed approach would sweep up people like Martha Stewart and Don Siegelman, too -- which I could hardly imagine anyone here approving of.

But the poster later made it clear that she intended to refer to only the Madoffs of the world.

[mod mom]

58. I hope you are correct!

[Cleita]

34. Because equality in the USA is a myth. There are a certain classes of criminals

who are above the law. You see them still walking around, making money for speeches, and spewing their hate on the media. None of them have been brought to justice for their heinous crimes that have been committed openly and in full view.

[we can do it]

67. like Ollie North

and Karl Rove?

[Cleita]

69. Yes, all of them all the way back to Nixon, whom Prez. Ford pardoned. n/t

[Stargazer09]

37. I second that motion! n/t

[femrap]

40. k and r

very good question!

[Bozita]

47. IIRC, local cops get to keep the proceeds from drug case seizures

One metro Detroit guy had his home, car, and bowling alley taken during a pot case.

It's been over 5 years now and the guy is still fighting it out in the courts. He wants his stuff back.

[TheKentuckian]

49. Because the entire point of the system is to funnel resources to the few

it is counter-intuitive to every take from the those few while it is standard operating procedure to squeeze the last couple of nickles from the common man.

[Critters2]

50. Because drug traffickers might be black or Latino, obviously. nt

[Odin2005]

52. The rich can hire lawyers to gum things up.

Us little people are stuck with "Public defenders" who mostly don't give a crap and would probably not want to piss off their bosses by defending their clients well.

[ck4829]

54. K&R

[Uncle Joe]

55. Because the hypocrites raping the Constitution know the vast majority of people

selling drugs are small scale, thus easy pickings, less powerful and easier to demonize to the general public.

Whereas those swindlers, frauds and embezzlers that hob nob with the mega wealthy and powerful are too close to home in both their relations and practice for such sweeping draconian measures to be taken.

[sojourner]

56. drugs are bad, wall street is good -- common folk are bad, the powerful are good

drugs cause violent crime, so-called white collar crimes are "victimless" because it's just corporations and paper that they are ripping off.....all a part of "THE GAME" and the powerful folk have agreed that it's what they do. You steal and win this time. I'll steal it back later on.

Society, the rest of us? Inconsequential pawns.

And we buy the horse-shit...we bought the so-called "war on drugs" because we can ALL SEE what the effects of drugs on our neighborhoods is.

And (despite our outrage at Enron) the (usual) effect of a wall-street scam is invisible because who gets to see the losses in earnings? and what does that piece of paper mean anyway? and if you risked your retirement in "THE GAME" then serves you right, because that's what the game is about, is gambling, cheating and conning your way to the top. And the media buys into the game. And our politicians are big players in the game. And so drug dealers suffer the full weight of the law, and wall street? they walk off into the sunset to figure out where to get a stake for their next round in the game.

[we can do it]

68. My Favorite Euphamism -" Victimless Crime"

seems to me if we ask the Enron emplyees which crime was victimless, The Enron Debacle or someone soking dope, wonder which they would choose?

[WVRICK13]

57. The Difference is The Amount Stolen

If you shoplift to feed your family you go to jail. If you rip off enough people to make millions you are one of the ruling class and get preferential treatment. Someone needs to fix our equal justice for all.

[reggie the dog]

60. because drug dealers must be demonized

seeing as they only sell people products they want, whereas people like Madoff are actually criminals who STEAL from others. Without demonizing dealers with special punishment like asset forfeiture, even in cases where the people are never charged with anything, people would begin to ask questions. Besides Madoff is white, most asset forfeiture is used against black people or latinos who are found to have thousands of dollars in cash, often their legally obtained life savings, either stashed in their homes or in their car with them.