"Shut up about Chavez the killer," Venezuelan co-star tells Sean Penn.

[Occam Bandage]

The saccharine conventions of showbusiness were thrown out of the window last week, when the Hollywood actress Maria Conchita Alonso was collared by paparazzi and asked if she was pleased about her former co-star Sean Penn's recent Oscar victory.

"He's an amazing actor. I can't take that away from him," she said of Penn, who worked with her on the 1988 cop film Colors. "It's just that he has no clue at all what's going on in Venezuela. He's been praising Hugo Chavez, who is a dictator and a killer. He should shut up about what he doesn't know." Alonso, who was raised in Venezuela, was apparently upset by a glowing article that Penn had written for The Nation magazine about her homeland's charismatic but increasingly dictatorial left-wing President.

In normal circumstances, Alonso's interview might have been brushed under the carpet. But for the first time a Hollywood insider was saying what much of America thinks: left-wing luvvies in the movie business should wake up to the real nature of their hero. For one thing, Mr Chavez throughout his career has criticised Hollywood as a medium of American "cultural imperialism". And Penn, who since his Oscar-winning performance in Milk has become a vociferous gay rights activist, is also open to allegations of hypocrisy. The Venezuelan leader's political hero, Fidel Castro, imprisoned and executed gay men, and once declared: "In this country there are no homosexuals."

Penn has plenty of company. On Thursday, Benicio del Toro made headlines when he took tea with Mr Chavez at his palace in Caracas. The actor, in Venezuela to promote Steven Soderbergh's film Che, told journalists that his host was "nice" and that he'd "had a good time". Del Toro's comments caused apoplexy on the political right in the US, but lately even Democrats have been perturbed by Mr Chavez's intolerance of media criticism and political opposition.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/shut-up-about-chavez-the-killer-venezuelan-costar-tells-sean-penn-1639783.html

:popcorn:

[ananda]

1. I think Chavez is a hero of the poor.

Those with money and upper class pretentions
might try to demonize Chavez... wrongly.

Penn is also a hero.

[cali]

3. Some of us don't believe in political heros and think it's dangerous to

fall down in adoration at the altar of any politician.

[EFerrari]

160. Edit: Hero worship isn't really the same as admiration for a track record.

[cali]

213. uh, the poster said she thinks he's a hero.

I don't do the hero thing. I think it's dangerous. period.

[LeftyMom]

181. Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

:rofl:

[MicaelS]

4. Really???

I think Chavez is just another "Cult of Personality."

[roody]

199. A friend who went to Venezuela said he is treated like a rock star.

Sounds like fun.

[Occam Bandage]

6. I think Chavez is a politician with some good policies, some bad policies,

and a moderately worrying insistence that he and he alone is capable of standing against the vaguely-defined "enemy."

[RufusTFirefly]

36. All too often, our demonization of "dictators" is tragically self-fulfilling

It pains me the way the U.S. Gov't repeatedly sides with the Bad Guy in these situations. We should be on the side of popular revolutions. But American corporations drive our foreign policy, not American ideals.

What happens seems almost inevitable. The poor and oppressed in the country are well aware of the U.S.'s attempts to undermine their leader and thus redouble their resolve to exalt and defend him. He ceases to be a regular leader. Instead, he becomes an icon in the struggle for independence and the fight against imperialism.

Meanwhile, the leader becomes justifiably paranoid and grows repressive, seeking to fend off American-sponsored attempts to overthrow him. At the same time, it takes someone with an extraordinary strength of character not to succumb to the adulation of his citizens and start believing he is larger than life.

Also, as the need for security increases, the economic policies that often made the leader so popular in the first place are diluted. Domestic discontent grows. Understandably. Snubbed by the U.S., the leader is often forced to look elsewhere for trading partners and strategic economic alliances. By necessity, those allies are often other countries the U.S. detests.

We choke the life out of movements that echo our own revolution.

Barring a miracle, the leader ultimately becomes exactly what we said he was.

It's tragic. It really makes me sick at heart to watch time and time again.

[Occam Bandage]

44. It is, yes. Isolation only justifies the claims of radical elements in a country.

It's akin to the United States setting out to prove that everything the anti-American element in a country states is true. I'd quibble a bit with your timeline, but I agree with the fundamental point: that when we choose only to recognize the dictatorial possibility instead of the democratic possibility, then we decide which of those possibilities will arise.

[Cleita]

85. It's actually very hard to be a leftist President in South America because

so many foreign interests prefer dictators who take their bribes, shut up and turn their backs on what is going on in the exploitation of the people and lands of their nation.

[endarkenment]

220. actually because you are likely to be shot by the CIA.

[hendo]

15. a hero of the poor?

who doesn't stand for opposition?

Since when does a dictator stand for the poor? By that reasoning Mao was a saint as well.

[endarkenment]

42. The political opposition is alive and well in Venezuela

which is why, for example, Chavez lost his referendum bid last year to revise the constitution. On the other hand, Chavez is overwhelmingly popular with 'the poor', of which Venezuela has a lot, and that is why he has been elected and re-elected in fair and open elections.

p.s. not a dictator, but you knew that.

[Occam Bandage]

49. I think Mao did stand for the poor, to an extent that few "people's" dictators have.

By that I mean that I think he had, throughout his life, a focus primarily on the welfare of his people. When he was connected directly to the people, such as during the Chinese Civil War and the Second Sino-Japanese War, the result was benevolent construction and literacy projects. When he was cloistered in Beijing, relying purely on reports from corrupt officials (who were corrupt in large part because of the strict ideological enforcement he stupidly imposed, and in part because in China, officials are always corrupt, which the peasant-soldier Mao would have little experience with), the result was the Great Leap Forward. When his ideologically-based system of purges resulted in his being surrounded by nothing but savvy and ambitious political warriors, the result was the Great Cultural Revolution.

The Chinese official line now is that Mao was 70% right, 30% wrong. Personally, I think Mao was either 5% right or 95% right, depending on how you weight the importance of the one thing he disastrously believed throughout his life: that ideological purity was the best judge of both character and competence.

[hendo]

59. Oh, Mao definitely did stand for the poor

he believed in the poor so much that he wanted to lower every one to the lowest common denominator. His little red book is quite a read.

I think you are overstating the official Chinese line on Mao though. Last time I was there he was far less popular than you are suggesting.

I do have my Mao statue on my desk though, along with my red Mao pin. Mao brought me much good luck with my dissertation.

[Occam Bandage]

66. Pretty much, yes.

He believed in the purity and goodness of the poor peasant. To the extent that it would be a good thing for everyone to become one. Not claiming his ideas were particularly good, but I think that for the most part, they were honestly held.

As for the Chinese official line? I certainly wasn't suggesting he was popular among the people; only that Deng Xiaoping's verdict is still tacitly accepted by the CPC, and even then only to introduce my own opinion of him. I think he had largely benevolent intent throughout the first few decades of his rule, but that his insistence on rigid ideological purity resulted in his rule being an unqualified disaster outside of his unification/pacification and literacy programs.

你常常到中国去吗？

[hendo]

69. To answer your question in Chinese

No, I don't go there frequently, or at least not anymore. I am headed to Shenzhen on Saturday though.

It's a good thing that I speak just enough Japanese to pick out what you were saying, eh?

[RaleighNCDUer]

93. Never mind that the opposition is the wealthiest 5% -

those who bled the country of its oil revenues for decades before Chavez came to power.

[hendo]

111. It's a larger opposition than that

Don't overstate his popularity.

[EFerrari]

121. How much did he win the referendum by? Five, ten points?

:)

[hendo]

156. Yes, because pointing to the legislature for examples of legitimate rule

are a great sign of the will of the people.

Remember something called the Patriot Act? That sure was exactly what all of the people in the US wanted. What about the War in Iraq? That was voted on by the legislature. Surely if the legislature passed that we must all agree with it.

Unless you mean the vote earlier this year. I believe he only won by 5-6 points though.

[EFerrari]

165. Nope. I'm pointing to the vote. The legislature has nothing to do with it.

So please spare me your gratuitous refs to the Patriot Act enacted by our completely sold out Congress. Too bad our legislature is not as progressive as Venezuela's.

The referendum on terms limits won by 8 points.

[RaleighNCDUer]

128. OK, it is PRIMARILY the 5% former oligarchs and the industries they

control and some of the middle-class (the wannabe rich) - the REAL opposition numbers are 35-40%, as evidenced by the recent elections. Much like the Republicans, here, except there they attempt coups and here we merely have fraudulent elections.

And if some of the students are worried about him asking to remove term limits from the constitution, that does NOT make them opposition. They denied him that change, but still support his presidency. When his term ends, he will step down, as opposed to when his term ends he will run again and face the possibility of being beaten. It wasn't because of HIM specifically, but because they were worried about the precedent. You don't know who might come to power AFTER him.

[robinlynne]

175. Thank-you.

[Kitty Herder]

134. Since when is an actual democratically elected leader who goes through official channels

to enact legislation, uses referenda to change the constitution and encourages local participation in government through community councils a dictator?

You wanna see a real dictator? Here:


*edited to add: I think perhaps we Americans can't tell the difference between a dictator and a democratically elected leader anymore after eight years of being ruled by an unelected dictator who ruled by executive order and specious arguments from the OLC and being told we were living under the greatest democracy on earth. That's the only reason we would ever fall for that line about Chavez being a dictator.

[robinlynne]

176. Most of Venezuela agrees with you, as do I.

[cali]

2. lol.

if this ain't flamebait, I've never seen flamebait. but it's my kind of flamebait. I looove the Chavez wars on DU. They completely crack me up, so pass that :popcorn:.

[Ikonoklast]

5. There are no absolutes in this.

Is Hugo Chavez a complete saint, with no ego or agenda?
No.

Is he completely evil, just another in a long line of totalitarian dictators?
No.

All is seen through the prism of personal perspective.

[marshall]

142. A hero to some, a villain to others

When he was good, he was very very good, and when he was bad he was horrid.

[seabeyond]

216. is this has his supporters excuse his killing gays... i dont know

that is a pretty HUGE ass turn off, i would think. but then that is merely my humble opinion.

think it is beyond your trite little post

[Truth2Tell]

223. When has he ever killed gays?

Or even spoken badly of gays for that matter?

He has spoken words of praise for Castro, who has killed gays, but that's hardly the same thing. He certainly never praised him on that account.

It's one thing to have issues with Chavez on policy or personality grounds, it's quite another to just make shit up, or call him a "dictator," which he most certainly is not.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

228. Heh. By that reasoning, the PM of Spain is a killer.

Because he praised Lula (of Brazil), who praised Chavez, who praised Castro. :crazy:

[Truth2Tell]

229. For that matter, I can't even find any evidence that CASTRO

killed gays. He's an anti-gay bigot for sure, but I don't see where he has ever killed any.

[RufusTFirefly]

7. Maria Conchita Alonso

Interesting facts about her. She was actually born in Cuba before the Revolution. Her family moved to Venezuela in 1962.

She has appeared on "Hannity's America," "Hannity and Colmes" and "The O'Reilly Factor."

[YOY]

24. So basically a refuge with money siding with the Republicans.

AKA. Stick a fork in it.

[Occam Bandage]

30. It's funny to watch people engaging in thuggish labelling of the opposition

as a way of defending against claims that Mr. Chavez has dictatorial tendencies.

[YOY]

Oh he's no angel.

But he's not the devil either. Still a dictator though.

Still, I'm not into taking the word of someone who was raised only on Baptista's side's opinion of the Cuban Revolution.

[Occam Bandage]

40. I agree. Actually, I confess I find the whole thing somewhat strange. Chavez seems so...

unexceptional to me. I understand why Republicans see Chavez as a devil and liberals often see him as a saint: he criticized George W. Bush relentlessly on the international stage.

Beyond that, he's a socialist politician who occasionally displays worrying signs of dictatorial designs, and who occasionally seems to be acting with benevolent intent. I have to think that if he hasn't latched onto Bush as a foreign boogeyman, that he would be of no more import here than Evo Morales is.

[YOY]

47. Much like any dictator he will go away after he "goes stale".

There is no ying without a yang. Any system that does away with the opposition like he did will not last longer (successfully) than the populist momentum can carry it.

Ya sees, I gots this theory about one party systems (dictatorships included but regardless of ideology) that they are at best stagnant for development and progress and at worst regressive and unsustainable...

Fits Chavez, the USSR, Nazi Germany, the Reagan Republican Majority perfectly.

I'm big on plurality.

[RaleighNCDUer]

95. When the opposition decides to trust to elections instead of CIA funded

coups, the 'one party' system in Venezuela will go away.

They just had a referendum that Chavez LOST, and know what? Nobody got marched off to the firing squads.

Maybe their system is a little more mature than you give it credit for.

[YOY]

145. It's not about "maturity" of any ideology

It's about plurality. You have to have at least two sides willing to work together on some things. At least two real sides and not any propped up by any foreign government.

And the lack thereof is proof that we should never have gotten involved in their politics (the Russians as well for back in the day.)

[Cleita]

82. Salvador Allende was demonized also by the elite and American interests

in Chile until Nixon and Kissinger took care of him. Of course in true American conservative fashion they replaced him with a real brutal, dictator, Augusto Pinnochet, who was never criticized until the extent of his brutality became indefensible and couldn't be ignored anymore.

[RufusTFirefly]

97. Indeed. The pattern repeats and repeats and repeats

Ferdinand Marcos, the Shah of Iran, Mobutu Sese Seko, etc, etc, etc.

We love to replace popular leaders with "strong men." After all, it's in our best interest economically to bypass that messy business called democracy and have someone who can keep the rabble in line and grant us easy access to the country's resources.

[G_j]

148. they took care of him alright! RIP n/t

[NeedleCast]

88. He seems to need constant attention

In many ways, he reminds me of Kim Jong Il, with less of a dictatorial bent. Whenever Venezuala falls out of the news, you can bet Chavez will have something inflamitory to say about something or someone.

[EFerrari]

132. It's actually the other way around. Notice that Chavez didn't write this article.

When the monied interests that oppose him are up to something, these articles pop up. In this case, Obama is going to meet with some Latin American leaders this month so there is a full on campaign to smear Chavez ahead of the meeting.

It's like this ahead of every vote in Venezuela and ahead of every significant international meeting. Like clockwork.

[RufusTFirefly]

144. Put your shingle out as a Chavez-hating, climate-change denying, Iraq War apologist...

... and you will make a fortune and be able to retire early.

It seems obvious that if you espouse positions that reinforce the goals of the ruling elite that you will quickly gain the ear of the media.

[EFerrari]

152. It's remarkable the way they frame him to look like an attention whore

when, if you look carefully, he's responding to something or hasn't actually said anything at all -- as in this article. They're good at what they do.

[hendo]

64. But of course

why make a case when you can label the other side?

[EFerrari]

158. You mean, the McCain supporting guest of Hannity and O'Reilly?

She labels herself. But, nice try.

[struggle4progress]

119. Understanding María Conchita Alonso's biases is essential for proper interpretation of her comments:

she comes from a rightwing family and holds rightwing views. Considered in isolation, of course, it would not mean much that she decided during the Reagan era to immigrate to the US or that in the last Presidential election she supported the Republican campaign (one of the nastiest campaigns in recent memory). But such facts need not be considered in isolation. She has regularly appeared on rightwing talkshows. More to the point, her understanding of Venezuela today is probably colored by her brother's views. So let us remember briefly who her brother is:

Venezuela Captures Paramilitary Group Seeking to Overthrow Chavez
May 9th 2004, by Venezuelanalysis.com

unday, May 9, 2004 (Venezuelanalysis.com).- Venezuelan authorities captured this morning a group of 55 Colombian paramilitaries who were receiving training at a farm nearby Caracas in preparation for attacks on Venezuelan military bases and for a coup d'etat against the government of Hugo Chavez.

The raid was conducted by the civilian intelligence service DISIP, military intelligence officers and the Scientific, Penal and Criminal Investigation Department (CICPC). The property where the paramilitaries were captured is located in the municipality of Baruta, in southeastern Caracas. Footage by state TV showed what appeared to be living quarters, with beds and kitchens ...

According to authorities, the property where the paramilitaries were captured belongs to anti-government political leader Robert Alonso. Mr. Alonso, of Cuban origin, is a legal resident of the United States, and creator of the civilian resistance plan called "Guarimba", aimed at toppling the Chavez government and which was first implemented at the end of February in Caracas during the Presidential Summit of the Group of the 15.

Mr. Robert Alonso is one of the leaders of an opposition coalition know as Bloque Democrático (Democratic Block) and he is also tied to the larger Coordinadora Democratica opposition coalition. He is the brother of Cuban-Venezuelan actress Maria Conchita Alonso ...

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/498

War on Hugo Chávez
An outlaw and former spook takes on the Venezuelan dictator
By Janine Zeitlin
Published on October 10, 2007 at 10:41am

... Robert dubs the plan that caused him to flee his homeland La Guarimba, and says it's nonviolent. But the last time he made his pitch for revolt — in 2004 — at least 13 people were killed and more than 100 were wounded in clashes. "If you don't follow the instructions, it's not my fault.... When you commit yourself to something, you have to quemar los barcos, burn the ships. There's no way out," says the 57-year-old with a shock of white hair and an ample belly. "We're at war" ...

At some point in April 2004, he met with other activists calling themselves the "Brigade Daktari." (A Venezuelan flag hangs on his home office wall with about 50 signatures from this mysterious meeting.) Then he left for Colombia. Carrying a GPS, Alonso says, he navigated the jungle between the two countries and then hopped a bus to Bogotá. He took a plane to Miami in late April ...

Alonso looks like a retiree who stopped by for an afternoon cafecito. He's wearing blue sweatpants, tan sandals, and a turquoise T-shirt. Clamor from the espresso machine and blenders fills the room as a man in a button-down shirt carrying a briefcase strides through the bakery doors and beelines for the table. He silently drops a manila folder before Alonso.

The mystery man is Marlon Gutiérrez, a 45-year-old former Nicaraguan Contra. Alonso takes some papers from the folder and looks them over. They are bylaws for their new group, Fundación Interamericana por la Democracia, which will organize Guarimba resistance movements in Nicaragua, Cuba, and Venezuela ...

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2007-10-11/news/war-on-hugo-ch-aacute-vez/

One can infer the political role María Conchita Alonso plays rather clearly from articles like the following:

Alonso rips tyrant Chavez

... The former beauty queen and pop singer is producing a documentary, "Two Minutes of Hate," about the events of April 11, 2002, when Chavez dispatched snipers to stop a peaceful protest march. "Nineteen died, and more than a hundred were hurt," said Alonso, who fears it is already too late to stop him ...

http://www.nypost.com/seven/06042007/gossip/pagesix/alonso_rips_tyrant_chavez_pagesix_.htm

Now, on April 11, 2002, there was a coup d'état in Venezuela, that seized control for two days and installed Carmona, who dissolved the National Assembly and Supreme Court before Chavez's elected government regained control. So perhaps one might want to know rather more than two minutes about those days, more than could be provided by Alonso's "Two Minutes" (billed as a fictional love story interspliced with "archival footage"). "Two Minutes of Hate" certainly gave Alonso an extended opportunity to propound her view without fear of contradiction -- since, of course, the talkshows typically don't allow counterpoint when actresses promote their films

[rosesaylavee]

174. Ms. Alonso and her brother are not totally disinterested bystanders are they?

[Truth2Tell]

224. Calling O'Reilly and Hannity "Republicans"

is "thuggish labeling?" She is siding with them (and you) isn't she? :shrug:

And you just can't stop with the "dictatorial" business. As far as I can tell Chavez accepts the will of the people every time it's expressed, even when he disagrees with it.

Seems more to me like it's YOU who engage in the the thuggish labeling - as a way of defending against claims that you have right-wing tendencies.

[OnyxCollie]

91. Don't forget she co-starred with Arnie in The Running Man.

Which begs the question: Why should I care what she thinks?

[Judi Lynn]

209. Republicans start foaming at the mouth when they think of leftist performers,

yet consider just how many people they've used to push their own agendas who have nothing going for them beyond instant name recognition, all of them not particularly bright.

Ronald Reagan, Charlton Heston, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sonny Bono, Fred Thompson, athletes like Jim Bunning, J C Watts, Connie Mack, and a whole crowd of people I can't even remember.

This Maria Conchita Alonso beanbag is almost out of steam. She was never known to be a talented actress, and she's on her last legs, apparently, looking for some way to keep her name in front of the public.

http://www.celebritywar.com.nyud.net:8090/pictures/maria-conchita-alonso.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org.nyud.net:8090/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Maria_Conchita_Alonso_adjust.jpg/220px-Maria_Conchita_Alonso_adjust.jpg http://www.borev.net.nyud.net:8090/conchitaface.jpg

http://img.timeinc.net.nyud.net:8090/pespanol/i/galeria/2008/marzo/mariaconchitacell_300.jpg http://francislz.files.wordpress.com.nyud.net:8090/2007/08/maria-conchita.jpg

[Judi Lynn]

118. Her brother, Roberto Alonso, is the leading proponent of "guarimba," which means violent protest.

After following up on tips from an information, Venezuelan officials found 130 Colombian paramilitaries holed up in temporary quarters on Alonso's ranch, "Daktari," outside Caracas, next door to anti-Chavez mega media Cuban Venezuelan tycoon, and majority stockholder in U.S.'s Univision, co-conspirator in the armed kidnapping and coup against Chavez years ago, Gustavo Cisneros.

After these men testified that they had been brought to Venezuela by the Venezuelan oligarchy, had been given plans to break into a national guard armory, steal weapons to supply 1,000 men, then seize control of Miraflores, and kill Chavez, Chavez actually let some of them simply return to their homes in Colombia, and publicly stated they didn't concoct the plot, it appeared they simply made themselves available to participate, and they were free to go home.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Venezuelan elite imports soldiers
by Marta Harnecker
May 23, 2004

~snip~
Since 'the conspiracies against Venezuela do not end with the capture of mercenaries in Caracas,' there must be many other infiltrators in other areas of the country; since this is not an isolated action, but one whose efforts to stop the process continue, one can reach but only one conclusion: it is necessary to prepare oneself for self-defense. This is why the President considered it opportune to take advantage of the occasion and to announce three strategic lines for defending the country. The most radical proposal was a call for the population to massively participate in the defense of the nation.

A week earlier, on the 9th of May, on the outskirts of Caracas, a paramilitary force was discovered, dressed in field uniforms. Later, more were found, raising the total to 130, leaving open the possibility that there are still more in the country. The three Colombian paramilitary leaders of the group are members of the Autonomous Self-Defense Forces (AUC) in Northern Santander state in Colombia.

Some of the captured Colombian fighters have a long history as members of paramilitary forces. Others are reservists of the Colombian army and yet others were specifically recruited for the task in Venezuela and were surely tricked. Among these there are several who are minors.

A colonel of the Venezuelan air force was also detained, as well as seven officers of the National Guard. Among those implicated in the plot is a group of civilians headed by the Cuban Roberto Alonso, creator of the 'guarimbas,'<1> and Gustavo Quintero Machado, a Venezuelan, both who are currently wanted by the Venezuelan justice system.

What the real objectives were is now being discussed. One of them could have been to steal weapons so as to then attack the Miraflores presidential palace and President Chavez himself.

The government denounced the existence of an international plot in which the governments of the United States and of Colombian would be involved. U.S. Ambassador Shapiro denied that his country had any participation in the incident. And the Colombian president, for his part, solidarized himself with the Venezuelan government, affirming that he supports its actions against the members of the irregular Colombian military group, which then caused Chavez to publicly announce that he was convinced that President Alvaro Uribe did not have anything to do with the plot, even though he insisted on leveling charges against a Colombian general by the name of Carreño.

Even though the oppositional media conducted a big campaign to minimize the issue, trying to accuse the government of having organized a montage, so as to have a pretext for taking forceful measures that would impede a confrontation at the voting booth, every day more evidence surfaces that confirm the official version.

The Colombian attorney general's office has evidence that proves that paramilitary fighters were recruited and then transported to Venezuela and that extreme right-wing groups infiltrated intelligence services in the border town of Cúcuta. The proof was shown on the news program 'The Independent Network.' The program broadcast some intercepted recordings of paramilitary soldiers in Cúcuta, in which the operations they carried out in Venezuelan territory are reviewed.
(snip)

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=5579

By the way, the recently removed head of Uribe's national security department has ADMITTED recently he knew of this. It was discussed fully here, over and over.



Colombian paramilitaries captured at a ranch owned by Cuban right-wing “exile” Roberto Alonso

January 25, 2005

The Granda Kidnapping Explodes
The US / Colombia Plot Against Venezuela
By JAMES PETRAS

A major diplomatic and political conflict has exploded between Colombia and Venezuela after the revelation of a Colombian government covert operation in Venezuela, involving the recruitment of Venezuelan military and security officers in the kidnapping of a Colombian leftist leader. Following an investigation by the Venezuelan Ministry of Interior and reports and testimony from journalists and other knowledgeable political observers it was determined that the highest echelons of the Colombian government, including President Uribe, planned and executed this onslaught on Venezuelan sovereignty.

Once direct Colombian involvement was established, the Venezuelan government demanded a public apology from the Colombian government while seeking a diplomatic solution by blaming Colombian Presidential advisers. The Colombian regime took the offensive, launching an aggressive defense of its involvement in the violation of Venezuelan sovereignty and, beyond that, seeking to establish in advance, under the rationale of "national security" the legitimacy of future acts of aggression. As a result President Chavez has recalled the Venezuelan Ambassador from Bogota, suspended all state-to-state commercial and political agreements pending an official state apology. In response the US Government gave unconditional support to Colombian violation of Venezuelan sovereignty and urged the Uribe regime to push the conflict further. What began as a diplomatic conflict over a specific incident has turned into a major, defining crises in US and Latin American political relations with potentially explosive military, economic and political consequences for the entire region.

In justifying the kidnapping of Rodrigo Granda, the Colombian leftist leader, the Uribe regime has promulgated a new foreign policy doctrine which echoes that of the Bush Administration: the right of unilateral intervention in any country in which the Colombian government perceives or claims is harboring or providing refuge to political adversaries (which the regime labels as "terrorists") which might threaten the security of the state. The Uribe doctrine of unilateral intervention echoes the preventive war speech, enunciated in late 2001 by President Bush. Clearly Uribe's action and pronouncement is profoundly influenced by the dominance that Washington exercises over the Uribe regime's policies through its extended $3 billion dollar military aid program and deep penetration of the entire political-defense apparatus.

Uribe's offensive military doctrine involves several major policy propositions:

1.) The right to violate any country's sovereignty, including the use of force and violence, directly or in cooperation with local mercenaries.

2.) The right to recruit and subvert military and security officials to serve the interests of the Colombian state.

3.) The right to allocate funds to bounty hunters or "third parties" to engage in illegal violent acts within a target country.

4.) The assertion of the supremacy of Colombian laws, decrees and policies over and against the sovereign laws of the intervened country
(snip)

http://www.counterpunch.org/petras01252005.html

More captured Colombian paramilitaries

Published on Monday, May 17,
by the Agence France Presse
Thousands Protest Colombian Paramilitary Presence in Venezuela
Chavez to Set up 'People's Militia'

President Hugo Chavez announced his government would establish "people's militias" to counter what he called foreign interference after an alleged coup plot by Colombian paramilitaries Caracas claims was financed by Washington.

Chavez also said he would boost the strength of Venezuela's armed forces as part of a new "anti-imperialist" phase for his government.

"Each and every Venezuelan man and woman must consider themselves a soldier," said Chavez.

"Let the organization of a popular and military orientation begin from today."

The president's announcement came a week after authorities arrested 88 people described as Colombian paramilitaries holed up on property belonging to a key opposition figure.
(snip/...)

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0517-04.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

12.30pm update

Colombian paramilitaries arrested in Venezuela

Jeremy Lennard and agencies
Monday May 10, 2004

Venezuelan police have arrested more than 70 Colombian paramilitary fighters who were allegedly plotting to strike against the government in Caracas, according to the country's president, Hugo Chávez.
Opposition leaders, however, were quick to dismiss the president's claim, calling the raids on a farm less than 10 miles from the capital a ruse to divert attention from their efforts to oust Mr Chávez in a recall vote.

During his weekly radio and TV broadcast, Hello Mr President, Mr Chávez said that 53 paramilitary fighters were arrested at the farm early on Sunday and another 24 were picked up after fleeing into the countryside.
The country's security forces were uncovering additional clues and searching for more suspects, he said, adding that the arrests were proof of a conspiracy against his government involving Cuban and Venezuelan exiles in Florida and neighbouring Colombia.
(snip/...)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,,1213445,00.html



More captured Colombian paramilitaries

Three Venezuelan Officers and 27 Colombians Sentenced for Assassination Plot
A Venezuelan military court sentenced three Venezuelan military officers and 27 Colombians to two to nine years of prison for plotting an assault on Venezuela’s presidential palace and the assassination of President Hugo Chavez.Another 73 Colombians and 3 Venezuelan officers, who had also been suspected of participating in the plot, were freed after spending 17 months in prison.

118 Colombians were captured in May 2004 on a ranch just outside of Caracas, wearing Venezuelan military fatigues. Many of them appeared to be Colombian paramilitary fighters who had been recruited for a mission in Venezuela to attack the Chavez government and to kill the president. Six Venezuelan officers were also arrested in the course of the investigation.
Some of the Colombians were peasants who had been lured to come to Venezuela with the promise of jobs. Upon arriving, though, they were forced to engage in paramilitary training exercises and were forbidden to leave the ranch. 18 of the Colombians were released immediately after the capture and returned to Colombia because they were minors between 15 and 17 years. The ranch belongs to Roberto Alonso, a prominent Cuban-Venezuelan opposition activist. The highest level officer to be sentenced was General Ovidio Poggioli, who had been charged with military rebellion and was sentenced to 2 years and ten months of prison. The other two Venezuelan officers are Colonel Jesús Farias Rodríguez and Captain Rafael Farias Villasmil, who were each sentenced to nine years of prison. The 27 Colombians were each sentenced to six years prison.
When the group of Colombians were first arrested, many opposition leaders argued that the government had staged the arrests, in order to make the opposition look bad. They pointed out that no weapons were found with the paramilitary fighters and that the whole operation looked far too amateurish to have any chance of success. Also, it was argued that it is practically impossible to transport 120 Colombian paramilitary fighters undetected all the way from Colombia to Caracas, considering that there are numerous military control points along the way.
(snip)

http://www.voltairenet.org/article130297.html

[Kitty Herder]

135. That explains a lot. nt

[Tanuki]

8. The article doesn't mention that she was actually born in Cuba in 1957.

I think there is a bit of missing Alonso family history here....

[Occam Bandage]

10. Yes, I suppose she is most likely an enemy of the revolution.

Which is the type of inane ideological labeling that good, trustworthy leaders usually engage in when it comes to their political opposition.

[hendo]

11. She moved when she was 5 years old

Or, do you think immigrants have no rights to see themselves as citizens of a country?

[hendo]

9. Chavez is not a good guy

I hate it when people insist that he is.

[Winterblues]

A quite Large portion of Venezuela might disagree

Chavez was elected by a Popular vote of well over 60%, so I believe some think he is who they want to lead their country. Surprised you think you know more about him than the large majority of the people from there.

[distantearlywarning]

51. So what you are saying is that the fact that Bush was elected by a majority of US voters

in 2000 and 2004 is a sign that he is a very decent fellow and a great president?

Oh, wait...my bad. We were talking about Chavez, and that's different, right? :evilgrin:

[Occam Bandage]

52. Bush didn't even get a plurality in 2000. nt

[hendo]

54. However, in 2004 he got a solid majority. NT

[Occam Bandage]

56. Certainly. Strong evidence against the claim that a popular vote

is incompatible with dictatorial designs.

[hendo]

I'm not really sure that Bush would count as a dictator

after all, he stepped down without a fuss. That's something that I don't think we will see out of Chavez if the time comes.

[Occam Bandage]

71. Depends on what we mean by "dictator."

I argued strongly against the claim that Bush was a dictator in the classical sense here, in that he generally obeyed the law, that he engaged in peaceful and lawful transfers of power, and that he accepted legislative failures and moved on. At the same time, I do think that he illegally expanded executive powers to an extent that would be somewhat dangerous were he to have been succeeded by a like-minded President, that much of that was done purely to expand power for its own sake, and that he acted very much as a dictator (especially in 2002-2004) both in his neglect of law and his public attempts to shut down political debate by calling on vague yet terrifying internal/external enemies.

And I agree that, much like Chavez, claiming that he was fairly and legally elected is and was not a good defense against claims of dictatorial tendencies.

[RaleighNCDUer]

96. No, he didn't.

They just SAY he did.

[hendo]

113. take off your tin foil hat

If that's the case, what makes you think that Chavez really has the support of the majority?

[RaleighNCDUer]

123. The Carter Center validated the Venezuelan elections -

something they said they COULDN'T have done in either 2000 or 2004, had they been authorized to monitor US elections.

[distantearlywarning]

60. Oh, yes, I see now!

If it's someone you like, then getting a lot of votes means they are a wonderful person.

If it's someone you don't like, getting a lot of votes means that 1) that the voters didn't really vote for him, 2) the voters are stupid, 3) the votes weren't counted correctly, 4) 60% of the votes is radically different in meaning than 51% of the votes or 49% of the votes when using vote percentages to evaluate the character of politicians (we have no idea why, it just seems like a smart thing to say on an internet message board) 4) nothing, 5) anything except that your original argument was stupid and you don't want to admit it.

Makes sense to me. Go Chavez! :eyes:

[hendo]

53. How dare you attack Saint Chavez

:sarcasm:

[distantearlywarning]

61. Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking.

Actually, it wasn't even Saint Chavez that I was attacking, but the ridiculous notion that winning lots of votes is somehow indicative of character and good governance. Especially when that notion comes from a DU message board member who presumably lived through the last 8 years of a really shitty popularly elected president Bush.

[Fireweed247]

106. Venezuela votes on diebold with paper receipts

Chavez requested that like their atms machines, diebold provide a paper receipt for voters.

[hendo]

114. Which works wonders

when you want to prove that you weren't really rigging an election.

[EFerrari]

117. Except they use open source software and their elections are monitored

just as our should be.

[bvar22]

196. ...AND 55% handcount audit !!!

[EFerrari]

198. We should just buy ad space from Skinner: "Don't even ask about Venezuelan elections

unless you've recounted Ohio!"

lol

:hi:

[roody]

201. How do you know that? I think I would be his lover if he would ever

have me. I've never met him nor been to Venezuela.

[wuushew]

12. British journalism is really in decline

regardless of the original topic of this post, it is increasingly hard to find non-opinionated news coming out of the U.K.

The BBC is showing it, the Guardian, the Telegraph. Maybe it is just a symptom of the hard times in the news business, but I am painfully aware of journalistic bias in most stories coming out of South America and the Middle East.

[hendo]

18. the media has always been biased

regardless of the country that it dwells within.

[liberalmuse]

13. I used to think perhaps Chavez was good for Venezuela...

but it's looking more and more like he is yet another weak man who allowed power to go to his head and corrupt him. Still, I prefer not to swallow much of the propoganda published here in the states about him.

[ellenfl]

80. i, too, take any propaganda from (north) american media

with a grain of salt, considering how we (our many governments) have treated our neighbors to the south over the last decades.

ellen fl

[Le Taz Hot]

14. I confess to not knowing who is right in the

continuing saga of Mr. Chavez; however, this little portion in the article piqued my interest: ". . . Benicio del Toro made headlines when he took tea with Mr. Chaves at his palace in Caracas."

I'm sorry, I thought the people of Venezuela were struggling . . . hence the takeover of various industries -- to benefit the people of Venezuela. I just thought it was really interesting that the Socialist leader lives in a palace.

[hendo]

20. a good dictator always has a lavish palace to live within. NT

[devilgrrl]

22. Hugo Chavez's palace has gold plated toilet seats and chicks with feather fans...

who feed Hugo Chavez grapes as he lounges on his silk covered throne.

:popcorn:

[Le Taz Hot]

27. Well, I didn't see anything about gold plated

toilet seats or feather fans in the article, I just couldn't help but notice the palace part. :shrug:

[Occam Bandage]

28. Mr. Chavez does live ostentatiously for a man who claims to be of the people. nt

[devilgrrl]

37. I hear he has a really huge collection of shoes.... like 10,000 pairs or something.

:popcorn:

[On the Road]

55. ROFL

:rofl:

Oh man, not that thread again!

[ret5hd]

31. "The Palace" is an office/housing complex much like the White House is.

I've walked within 30-40 feet of it, as do 1000's of people a day. It's located just off of the Bolivar Plaza in Caracas.

[devilgrrl]

34. I hear that it has a built-in pool constructed out of human skulls!!!!!!

eom

[Le Taz Hot]

38. OK

I just associated the word with it's common definition.

[devilgrrl]

41. Ever wonder why the article would use the word "palace" as opposed to "office/housing complex"?

Think about it.....

[Occam Bandage]

50. Because his residence is called "Miraflores Palace?"

[endarkenment]

63. An excellent point!

And this Miraflores Palace is and has been the official residence of the Venezuelan executive since 1900. So, to get this particular bullshit attack on Chavez right, to understand the criticism fully, it is that Chavez should have moved out of the official residence because there are poor people in Venezuela, is that it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraflores_presidential_palace

[hendo]

67. Yup, exactly. NT

[endarkenment]

70. So he should have spent even more money on a new residence?

Or should he just move to the barrio and live with the poor people, like for example Obama does, or Brown, or ...

Who, other than Gandhi, a person I esteem greatly but who was never the executive of any nation, should Chavez model his executive of a nation lifestyle after? Which executive of a modern democracy is the example I can look to so that I can better understand this attack on Chavez? Certainly it is not the case that Chavez is being held to impossibly high standards here, standards to which we hold no other elected leaders of any country to? That would be massively dishonest if it were true, dishonest to the point of constituting a troll/flame-bait attack of the worst order, so there must certainly be such an example.

[Occam Bandage]

81. Of course not. Rather, he shouldn't claim to be a man of the people,

but should admit that he enjoys living the lifestyle of the wealthy and will continue to do so as long as he has the opportunity.

[RaleighNCDUer]

100. Just as Obama should not claim to represent the people, because

HE lives in a mansion - and owns another really big house in Chicago as well.

This nonsense doesn't get any truer, no matter how many times you repeat it.

[Occam Bandage]

73. The question was simply why the news media would call it a "palace." nt

[endarkenment]

74. Fortunately my browser shows many of your posts in a thread.

For example: "Mr. Chavez does live ostentatiously for a man who claims to be of the people. nt"


Edit: and of the person I actually responded to: "a good dictator always has a lavish palace to live within. NT"

You two have remarkably identical responses.

[Occam Bandage]

78. But does not, apparently, allow you to reply to the one you wished to reply to?

Never mind that. Yes, I do think that if Mr. Chavez honestly cared above all about the welfare of the people, he would forgo the trappings of power. I don't blame him for availing himself of the perks of office, but at the same time it's laughable to see a man who works in a palace and lives in a mansion with servants blaming his country's problems on a concentration of wealth. "It was already there" doesn't hold water, since the 'oligarchs' he loves to bash inherited their holdings as well.

[endarkenment]

86. Do you know anything about the history of the region?

It seems you don't.

[hendo]

115. you mean the history of corrupt politicians in S. America?

Yes, as a matter of fact I do, and Chavez is no different.

[endarkenment]

126. No actually I was referring to the 'oligarchy' reference.

But you have convinced me that you are clueless and are simply regurgitating the msm rightwing talking points about that awful democratic socialism that is sprouting up in latin america again. Perhaps, as in the 70's and 80's, we can put an end to that nonsense with some good old jackbootery, eh?

[EFerrari]

154. hendo has done that all over this thread, hoping that no one understands

that corrupt politicians in Latin America are nearly always right wing and US backed. But, nobody's perfect. :)

[EFerrari]

153. Cool. Please show some evidence of corruption.

His opposition has tried very hard to find some and has come up empty. Maybe you can help them out. :)

[RaleighNCDUer]

99. Actually, that would be Palacio Miraflores -

which translates as Miraflores Mansion (or palace).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. You realize Chavez is the President of Venezuela, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraflores_presidential_palace

Of all the stupid anti-Chavez propaganda, this shit really takes the cake.

[Le Taz Hot]

45. My goddess!

Switch to decalf! I already said I know NOTHING of this situation. People on both sides argue equally vehemently and it's impossible to know who is right. And for the record, I've NEVER posted anything pro- or anti- Chavez BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. I made ONE observational comment. A poster later explained that the palace wasn't actually a palace but a resident/office situation. I accepted that explanation. Capiche?

[no name no slogan]

89. The Presidential residence in many countries is called a "palace"

As are the houses of parliament. The official residence and/or official seat of government in many countries is called a palace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace

[Hannah Bell]

94. what's the white house?

[RaleighNCDUer]

98. The white house is also a palace. nt

[killbotfactory]

It's the presidential palace, the one he was trapped in during the coup against him

The coup lead by the freedom loving opposition where they threatened to bomb everyone inside if he didn't "resign".

It's the palace that predates Chavez, by, oh, about a century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraflores_presidential_palace

What fine journalism we have access to!

[Dorian Gray]

120. I think that's been the case

with most leaders, no matter how populist or socialist they claimed to be.

[wolfgangmo]

214. Not so interesting.

They just call it a palace. It is much smaller than the white house and is the official residence of the leader of the country, whoever that is.

[devilgrrl]

16. Hugo Chavez eats children and uses tobacco - He the devil.

:popcorn:

[cali]

21. Viva Hugo! He is a man of the people who cares only for the welfare

of the poor and struggling. He is a Saint!

:popcorn:

[hendo]

23. there you go, stirring the pot

You want to see this errupt, don't you :P

edit: I must admit, so do i.

[cali]

25. well, yes.

I think the Chavez wars on DU are fabulous and cheap entertainment. And as someone who doesn't give a rat's patootie about Chavez one way or the other, it's stress free entertainment pour moi.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. Isn't that called "trolling?"

[hendo]

57. not quite

Cali is just stating an opinion that already exists on these forums. And its all in good fun.

I find the pro-Chavez people to be quite hilarious myself. I love how some people here are so quick to support a dictator just because he happens to be a socialist one.

[devilgrrl]

76. He evil - just like Ayatollah Khomeini and Kim Jong Il

Bugga bugga bugga

[RaleighNCDUer]

101. Prove your contention that he is a dictator. nt

[rosesaylavee]

177. Oh. My. God.

Where have I been that I missed this before? I think I can tell where some posters are just messing around... but others, I don't know. This is hysterical.

:popcorn:

[devilgrrl]

26. He want to take over the planet earth - and rule for the rest of time ala Ferdinand Marcos

He evil.

:hi:

[roody]

202. Anyone up for a DU meetup in Venezuela? I am.

[maxsolomon]

17. if you come from the latin american upper class

you don't like latin american populist politicians. especially if they mean what they say.

she is right about one thing: "He should shut up about what he doesn't know."

i don't know much about Chavez, so i don't defend or support him on DU.

[AyanEva]

19. My opinion on Chavez swings back and forth, depending on the day

I can't decide if he's a good guy who really cares about the poor or if he's just faking it and going for a power grab. Or maybe both in some bizarre way.

[Occam Bandage]

58. I think it's possible that

he's a good but flawed guy who cares about the poor, but has convinced himself that the best way to serve the poor is for him to grab power, fusing his ambition and his sense of service. All populist politicians do that to a certain extent, otherwise they would volunteer for a charity instead of running for office. The problem is when the ambition begins to override the service.

[RaleighNCDUer]

102. Please identify his "power grab". nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

92. I think both - he cares about the poor after his own fashion, he just doesn't understand economics

or give a damn about Democracy.

I suspect he genuinely cares about the poor, thinks that the best thing for them is for him to stay in power and continue to pursue his policies, and is willing to do whatever it takes to ensure this.

Unfortunately, the policies he's pursuing with the goal of benefiting the poor are extremely counterproductive.

[AyanEva]

103. I think you may be on to something.

Sounds a bit like Cuba maybe?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

162. Chavez is nowhere near as bad as Castro.

Castro is a dictator, Chavez is only an autocrat.

[roody]

203. Anyone up for a DU Cuba meetup? I am.

[endarkenment]

127. Perhaps he should take an economics lesson from our experts.

And of course you just had to throw in the canard about not giving a damn about democracy - the gratuitous lie that betrays and undermines your other argument, which might have had some merit.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

161. Dupe, delete

[Donald Ian Rankin]

163. Yes, he should

The Western capitalist system is such that, *even when it's in what by it's standards is a massive slump, as at present*, those living under it are still better off than the rest of the world.

There are a host of imperfections in the American economic system (some currently being addressed by Obama, others not), but it's a hell of a lot better than the one Chavez is trying to set up.


And as to democracy, elections in Venezuela are moderately free, but in no way fair.

Chavez makes massive use of state power to campaign and to suppress his opponents' opportunities to campaign.

That's by no means unique - Berlusconi in Italy does something similar, to a lesser extent, for example - but it's not democratic.

[devilgrrl]

29. Hugo Chavez is Pinochet, the Saudis, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden all rolled into one.

The baddest of the bad!!!!!

[AyanEva]

129. edit: errant post, sorry

[devilgrrl]

32. Chavez killed private enterprise.... he scare me.

:scared:

[jpgray]

39. Is this like quoting an Iraqi/Cuban exile? Do we know where Alonso's coming from here?

Or are we just going to jump to conclusions, casting Alonso as a horrible villain or snow-pure heroine, depending on our own preconceptions of Venezuela?

Oh wait, this is DU.

[struggle4progress]

124. Yes, we know where she's coming from. See my post #119 upthread:

Understanding María Conchita Alonso's biases is essential for proper interpretation of her comments
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5214192&mesg_id=5216057

[EFerrari]

159. Apparently, some of us have no access to The Google. n/t

[endarkenment]

43. Hugo Chavez ate my cat!

[devilgrrl]

46. No. He ate my cat!

:P

[endarkenment]

48. Hugo Chavez Ate My Cat And All I Got Were These 25 Crappy DVDs!

[devilgrrl]

77. He ate my cat and wrapped it's carcass in a lousy t-shirt.

He a killer!

[misanthrope]

62. Another good reason to ignore celebrities and their outsized yappers**nm

**

[distantearlywarning]

65. Which one?

Sean Penn or the Venezuelan?

Which celebrity's yapper should we be ignoring?

[hendo]

68. Well, in this case Penn

At least the Venezuelan has first hand experience.

[vaberella]

211. Actually she's of the rich Elite...they ALL hate Chavez because he educated the poor.

So even if she is from Venezuela her position is tainted, skewed and extremely partisan.

[seabeyond]

217. talk about skewed. they hate cause educated poor? really? all the stuff

chavez is doing to rich and you see they hate him cause he educated poor? and that isnt skewed.

personally i am not on either side, but i run across posts like this gotta laugh

dont argue, i dont care. this isnt my issue

but the thinking brain, regardless of side or opinion or lack, KNOWS .... that there is a little more with battle between rich and chavez

[vaberella]

218. Why post if you don't care?

You just invalidated your own post...Ugh.

[seabeyond]

221. it isnt chaves, venzuala.... it is absurdity or dishonesty in post that draws my attention

ugh

lol

we all have our issues. some is the blind love, cult like, for chavez, and some is for honesty in presenting argument.

different universes

ugh.... (never used an ugh before. kinda a simple disrespect, grinnin)

[vaberella]

222. Both your posts are nonsensical and the fact that you give an incoherent post

for a topic you don't care about says a lot. Then you go on about how you don't want a discussion. Then don't say anything on this post. You're showing utter disrespect for my post and then give dictation about how you don't want to have a discussion. And yeah "ugh" is disrespectful for a reason because I wasted so much time on this.

[seabeyond]

227. i think it is all quite clear. you say rich angry cause poor educated. all the shit

going on between chavez and the rich... you think that is truly why the rich are pissed. sounds stupid at the least, but dishonest to me. is that being disrespectful to you post, ... well, i dont respect that kind of posting, even when you are fighting for your agenda. there are LOTS of reasons a LOT more important than education of the poor (which i dont think the rich are even pissed about) for the rich to be angry at chavez for.

that is my problem with your post

why i dont care about chavez adn the rich adn their battle? not my battle. neither are all good or all bad. neither are all right or all wrong. i dont have a position. but your post was dishonest

[misanthrope]

207. Take your pick**nm

**

[Donald Ian Rankin]

72. She weakens her case by overstating it. Chavez is a nasty piece of work, but not a dictator.

If she'd said "Chavez is an autocrat who only pays lip-service to democratic principles, who is damaging Venezuelan democracy and whose economic policies are further impoverishing the very poor he claims to represent", I'd have supported her.

But he's not, by almost any standard, a dictator, and I know of no substantiated allegations of him having had people killed.

[Occam Bandage]

75. Who doesn't overstate their case with Chavez?

Heck, half this thread is people sarcastically calling him a saint or "evil."

[hendo]

79. Don't forget the fact that he eats babies. NT

[ellenfl]

84. chavez is a nasty piece of work? why? because the

same msm that kissed bushco's butt says so? i will give him the benefit of the doubt BECAUSE of our msm . . . at least until i see him eating babies.

ellen fl

[Donald Ian Rankin]

90. Some links from various sources.

This is an argument I see on DU often enough that I periodically bookmark articles relevant to Chavez; here are some.

I appreciate that link-dumping is no real substitute for debate; all I'm doing here is demonstrating that it's not just suspect news organs that report bad stuff about Chavez

I make no particular claim for the veracity of any individual article - I've just gone through my folder and printed them all out - but I think there are enough to make my case.



From that well-known right-wing rag The Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jan/05/venezuela.international
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/16/venezuela.colombia
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/16/venezuela.colombia
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/03/venezuela.colombia
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/14/venezuela.international
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/30/venezuela


From that bastion of conservative bias, the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7432895.stm


I know nothing about this source; I merely include it for completeness.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/30/hugo-chavez-venezuela-oil-business-energy-0130_oil_rig.html?feed=rss_news


The Telegraph really *is* a right-wing source, but while I disagree strongly with its editorial stances its standards of factual reporting are usually pretty high.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/2205687/Hugo-Chavez%27s-Venezuela-%27supplies-half-of-Britain%27s-cocaine%27.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/4938993/Venezuelas-Hugo-Chavez-tightens-state-control-of-food-amid-rocketing-inflation-and-food-shortages.html

[ellenfl]

110. i am not defending chavez, per se, just not going along

with his demonization. i will reserve judgment for now . . . unlike our prior government and our corporate msm.

ellen fl

[upi402]

112. yeah, Chavez has lost the plot. So sad...

He's the victim of the drug - power. It takes a radical to reject the lure of money and refuse to sell out on the way up. But once on top, it's a very few who withstand their own egos and seek humility and service. Maybe that's where spirituality has a place (not saying organized religion). I dunno, human beings these days...

[EFerrari]

130. What case? She called him names and told Sean Penn to shut up.

lol

[Cleita]

83. So who did he kill? The article doesn't follow up. It was also critical of

Chavez taking over Cargill without mentioning that it was because they were overcharging for rice, a food staple of the poor in South America. Imagine if our country pulled down the oil industry in our country for overcharging for gas.

[RufusTFirefly]

131. Don't you get it? It doesn't matter

All we have to do is to keep repeating the phrase "Chavez the killer" over and over again. It's bound to catch on.

Bush has been responsible for the utterly needless deaths of hundreds of thousands, but hey, he's no killer, He's the kind of guy you'd like to have a beer with.

(And no, I'm not suggesting that two wrongs make a right. It just sort of amazes me the way people on one side are killers, while people on the other are freedom fighters.)

[EFerrari]

133. It amazes me that the headline is a right wing actress telling Sean Penn to shut up

and DUers leap to agree with her. That's kind of weird.

[G_j]

151. that's about it

there is nothing else there.

[rosesaylavee]

178. Agreed. This is weird.

[Jennicut]

87. He is not as bad as some say and not as good as some people praise him for being either

He is just kind of "eh" to me.

[EFerrari]

171. The thing is, you never hear about the good stuff he's done.

The media, both here and in Venezuela, always trashes him. You've never seen the headline "Chavez Government Cuts Poverty Rate in Half", for example, or "Chavez Government Institutes Literacy Program, More Venezuelans Can Read Their Constitution" or "Chavez Government Lobbies For School Meals". It's always some bs headline like "Chavez steals an oil rig" and it always turns out to be bs.

The media really does matter. And in Venezuela, just like here, it's owned by conservative money.

[killbotfactory]

104. Only right wing actors are allowed to have opinions about stuff

Shame on you, Penn!

[EFerrari]

105. Seriously. LOL. n/t

[Radical Activist]

107. The hypocrisy line is ridiculous.

Penn likes Chavez who likes Castro who jailed gays so that makes Penn a hypocrite? Give me a break. After that kind of leap in logic I'm not going to click on the link.

But I think telling Penn to not go on about Chavez if he doesn't have first-hand knowledge is a good idea. On the one hand, I'm not willing to be manipulated by the corporate press hysteria about him. On the other hand, I'm not going to make the same mistake of the 1920's-30's left who assumed Stalin and Lenin were good guys just because they were communists.

[EFerrari]

109. She has the first hand experience of her class trying to overthrow

the elected government of Venezuela. And Penn has been to Venezuela. He just didn't stay with the Guccis. I betcha if you search her comments on politics, you'll find them nearly as progressive as Sean Hannity whose guest she has been.

[JackRiddler]

139. In the 1920s and 1930s everyone knew what was going on under Stalin and Lenin.

Does Venezuela maintain gulags? Has the Chavez government killed tens of thousands of dissidents? Held show trials?

Quite the opposite - the opposition mouths off freely all the friggin' time, and they control most of the country's media.

[Radical Activist]

143. I really don't believe

it's true that everyone knew or acknowledged what happened in Russia and when people like Emma Goldman started coming back with critical reports it was met with controversy.

The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend.

[JackRiddler]

146. Well I remember it well, young man...

[Radical Activist]

150. Really

so you'd say everyone on the left in America who supported Russia before WW2 had full knowledge of the repression and murder? Could you explain why? Were they really that fanatical about communism at all costs?

[JackRiddler]

157. Nah, relax.

I know what you're talking about, just kidding around a bit. There was deep denial about the Soviet Union. At the same time, people preferred to deny it because they thought the repression was necessary given that Russia was under siege by the imperialist powers (an argument that might have been valid at least as late as 1924 or so, but loses me by Kronstadt 1920 at the latest).

But you're really off point here. NOTHING of the sort has happened in Venezuela, or looks to happen. They have regular elections, and Chavez keeps winning them, and ever increased popular participation, which has made the ruling class rabid. No Gulags, no repression. Quite the contrary. Venezuela knew massacres and repression before Chavez. Now the opposition gets to fly to Miami to conspire with the CIA and gets to return home without fear of arrest.

Even after the CIA-backed coup attempt, the Chavez government let most of the plotters (who tried to dissolve all institutions including the courts!) free, and allowed one of the participating TV stations to continue broadcasting for five years until its license expired under the law. If NBC had tried to help overthrow Bush in 2002, Tom Brokaw would have been tortured to death at Guantanamo.

[JackRiddler]

108. But what does Britney Spears think of Obama? Inquiring minds want to know.

[hendo]

116. Damn straight we do!!

It sucks that celebrities think they have a place in politics. What's even worse though is that thanks to many Americans, they do.

[JackRiddler]

137. Actually, I disagree a bit...

Some celebrities may have something interesting to say. This is no surprise, as perhaps their success as artists is due to their ideas.

In that case, they can write an article or join a protest, like anyone else, and then we can judge their views on the merits.

But when they mouth off like this in an interview, it's the media who decide whether it is interesting enough to report. Alonso's comments are being reported in the context of the anti-Chavez campaign currently running in US media and government statements.

If she supported Chavez, like the majority of Venezuelans do, we wouldn't hear about it. That wouldn't be news. So as stupid as she is, this contrived bullshit story is not really her fault; it's the media who decided to report what's rattling around in her mind, as though it mattered.

It's ironic because Venezuela really did have a killer as president: Carlos Andrés Pérez, who declared a state of emergency in 1989, when 500 people were massacred by security forces in the street. This is known as "the Caracazo" and ultimately led to the socialist revolution under Chavez.

[tkmorris]

138. You are posting your opinions

You think they have less right to speak their mind then you do?

[hendo]

155. Unlike them

I do not hold press conferences that are designed to push my views on others.

I however am paid for my opinions. But that has to do with my level of education and the knowledge which I possess. Both of which are something that many celebrities lack.

Many are under the mistaken impression that playing a role in a movie or tv show automatically makes them an expert.

[tkmorris]

179. No, it just means their opinions draw more attention

Is that sensible? No, of course not, but it is true nonetheless.

In the end though they are just as entitled to their political opinions as you or I. The fact that some of them have inflated egos doesn't change that.

[struggle4progress]

184. That's about the right reaction: María Conchita Alonso is desperately seeking attention

USA, viernes 22 de septiembre de 2006
María Conchita Alonso dice que con Julio Iglesias tuvo 'sólo sexo.' La actriz y cantante María Conchita Alonso, dispuesta a reiventar su carrera tras un prolongado estancamiento, planea publicar sus memorias y eso tiene preocupados a muchos artistas con los que la venezolana-cubana, al parecer, tuvo amoríos ... http://sumarios.terra.com/Ocio/maria_conchita_alonso_desnuda.html

jueves 23 de agosto de 2007
Maria conchita desnuda o nude , enseña su parte imtima
Provided for documentation only: I advise not clicking this
Borev's comments (with sanitized photos)

John McCain Press Office Release October 31, 2008
Today the McCain-Palin campaign announced the endorsement of Maria Conchita Alonso ... ".. I am appalled that Barack Obama apparently wants to emulate the "spread the wealth" economic policies of those countries and negotiate with their leaders .."... http://www.infousamagazine.com/news/117/ARTICLE/3605/2008-10-31.html

[bullwinkle428]

122. That douchebag reporter first needs to get his facts straight -

it was AHMADINEJAD who declared "there are no homosexuals in Iran"!

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hATGOzv6YSmgeMY1zdYbdpyrG2cw

A search for a quote, or even some similar sounding phrase from Castro, yielded nothing. I recall Ahmadenijad's famous quote made at the U.N. a couple of years ago.

Here's some more stuff on LGBT rights in Cuba...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Cuba


EDIT: Okay, so apparently, the reported just decided to twist the facts, rather than just make them up out of whole cloth. Castro did make the quote "in the country, there are no homosexuals", as a reference to Cuban LGBT life in the rural areas as opposed to the cities:


"Castro's admiring description of rural life in Cuba ("in the country, there are no homosexuals"<15>) reflected the idea of homosexuality as bourgeois decadence, and he denounced "maricones" (faggots) as "agents of imperialism"."

[anonymous171]

125. Rich Venezuelans hate his guts, which is why I put up with him. nt

[Kitty Herder]

136. It seems one's opinion of Chavez is determined (in Venezuela) almost

entirely by one's socioeconomic class.

In the U.S. it's determined by one's level of gullibility in believing our b.s. news media and one's level of conservatism.

Chavez isn't perfect, anymore than any other human being. Anymore than say, Obama. But he is not the monster the U.S. media has made him out to be.

[JackRiddler]

140. 2008: ACTRESS MARIA CONCHITA ALONSO ENDORSES JOHN McCAIN

PAWNED.

October 31, 2008

http://blog.4president.org/2008/2008/10/actress-maria-conchita-alonso-endorses-john-mccain-.html

Actress Maria Conchita Alonso Endorses John McCain

ARLINGTON, VA -- Today the McCain-Palin campaign announced the endorsement of Maria Conchita Alonso, a Latin American actress who has starred in television and film for three decades. Alonso, who was born in Cuba and raised in Venezuela, recently appeared on CSI: Miami and Desperate Housewives and starred alongside Arnold Schwarzenegger in The Running Man.

"As a Latina and a new American citizen, I believe in this country and its people, and I believe that we need more than just 'change.' We need a leader who can bring about the right kind of change, and John McCain has the experience and judgment necessary to lead us in these uncertain times," Alonso said. "I grew up in Cuba and Venezuela, and I am appalled that Barack Obama apparently wants to emulate the "spread the wealth" economic policies of those countries and negotiate with their leaders. For me the choice is clear, and I believe it is my duty to share my views even though it might not make me popular in Hollywood."

After a successful career in Venezuela as a beauty queen, telenovela star, film actress and singer, Alonso emigrated to the United States from Caracas, Venezuela in 1982. She has appeared in dozens of films and television shows since then and was the first South American star to star on Broadway.

[endarkenment]

141. but of course -

our champions here of liberating Venezuela from the evils of democratic socialism and the hideous dictator chavez could not care less who or where they source their attacks from. For them, the choice is clear.

[EFerrari]

149. LOL

[anonymous171]

189. I used to just dislike her. Now I fucking hate her. nt

[anaxarchos]

204. Her brother, Roberto Alonso, is one of the biggest right-wing tools...

... in South Florida. Here he is at the closing of McCain's political campaign in Florida.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5519940748168870603

If Alonso is right about Chavez, isn't he likely to be right that the election of Obama will lead to "the total destruction" of the U.S.? The fucker is just being consistent.

Pendejo...

[EFerrari]

205. It's so bizarre because this is ALWAYS the way these stories turn out.

You dust off someone calling Chavez a couple of awful names and before you know it, you're deep into right wing wackjob country. But we never learn.

[Judi Lynn]

208. Too bad more people aren't aware that Alonso, a big McCain supporter

is the largest advocate of VIOLENT protest in Venezuela, and was hosting 130 death squad members on his Daktari ranch near Caracas, where they had been told they had to stay, could NOT LEAVE until they eventually broke into Miraflores and killed Hugo Chavez. They testified to this.

Alonso went on the run after they were arrested on his property. We see he turned up in Miami, among those racist fascists there, speaking out in for McCain's campaign.

People need to know our right-wing fully supports violent overthrows of elected leaders.

[cynatnite]

147. I love Sean Penn, but I can't agree with him on Chavez. n/t

[bird gerhl]

164. Who cares what some spoiled-bitch-in-exile thinks about the world's cuddliest demagogue?

I sure don't care.

[EFerrari]

167. Charleton Heston must have been unavailable.

:)

[Taverner]

166. Chavez is both a hero and a villain

He champions the poor, and gives them education, medicine and food. He brings jobs to areas that have none, and cares for the indigenous populations of the country.

However, as far as human rights go, he's a monster. FTR, he just closed down an exhibit featuring plasticized bodies, confiscating the body parts for a "Catholic" burial. He also shut down the equivalent of Fox Venezuela. He also still tortures dissidents.

[EFerrari]

168. Did you forget the smiley?

[Taverner]

180. No - and let me put it this way - he is corrupting in the same direction as Mugabe

Look, in the 1970's and 80's, Mugabe was a great guy. Model leader. Fair to all parties. Now, look at him.

Chavez was an amazing Socialist Reformer. I like Socialism, and I like Reform. But, once he got more power, the corrupting influences started to pervade and he is embarking on the same road. Say what you will about Fox News, its detestable - but its existence means faith in the 1st Amendment.

Power corrupts - Absolute Power corrupts absolutely is an axiom that never loses flavor - and it doesn't here.

FTR, I think the actions to BUY OUT Cargill at a favorable market rate are quite fair, and Cargill should stop complaining. Like I said, Chavez can be kind, and the media is out to get him. Just like Mugabe.

[EFerrari]

182. Except there is no evidence whatsoever that he's tortured anyone.

Criticize him but can we do it accurately? Please. And the comparison to Mugabe is just sort of out there.

Edit to add: I don't know if you know this, but I've been following our domestic torture story very closely. There's no way I'd ever give a pass to ANYONE engaging in that. :shrug:

[JackRiddler]

194. Today's magic scare phrase: MUGABE!

We need a new codicil to Godwin's Law.

[endarkenment]

173. FTR - please document your allegation of 'tortures dissidents'.

The other two charges I don't care about.

[conscious evolution]

169. How many people has Chavez killed?

Is his body count as high as bush's?
Will it be as high as Obama's will end up being?

[Eryemil]

170. How the fuck do the so-called liberals in this site...

...deal with the cognitive dissonance of siding with the very same people that time and time again work against our interests?
Oh yes, go ahead and listen to those bitching about Chavez when no one (that matters) in your country has the balls to call Bush and co. out on their crimes. The killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

You had some of the most evil men to come out of a western country in recent history terrorizing the world for eight years and you can't even manage to ship him off to stand trial.

But yes, bitch about the democratically elected leader of a powerless South American nation. A leader who, despite all those that say otherwise has not had anyone killed. A man that does NOT silence those that oppose him. In fact, as it's been mentioned here and some of you tools fail to acknowledge, the rich lily-white elite in Venezuela not only own most of the land and wealth (in a country with a native majority), they also own the fucking media.

If one thing can be said about Chavez is that he's a leader of the people. The true face of Venezuela, instead of the romanticized exploitation portrayed by the all white cast of every Venezuelan telenovela.

¡Metanse le lengua en el culo hijos de puta!

[endarkenment]

172. We have a cohort of rabid anti socialists.

They may or may not be progressive on other issues, but they positively froth over anything they view as socialist.

[JackRiddler]

183. stimulus - response

[EFerrari]

200. I don't think it's socialism. It looks more like the idea of a little brown guy

running a big country that freaks them out. I don't know how to put that in a more neutral way. Because there are socialists all over the place -- like Europe, for example. But no European leader has ever elicited the venom we see here directed at Chavez. What am I missing?

[endarkenment]

219. You? missing something? Not likely.

No flies on you kid. I agree with your little brown guy analysis, but I think our friends are also in denial about the extent of democratic socialism in europe. They appear to be pretty ignorant on just what is going on over there, from statements uttered by them, for example regarding the supposed impossibility of running a successful nationalized oil extraction business. Indeed however you make a good point. Our inclination to paternalistic racism with respect to our southern neighbors dominates these discussions. How dare the little brown man live in a palace?

[cynatnite]

185. Since when do progressives walk in lock-step like the repukes?

Not everyone has to like Chavez. :eyes:

[Eryemil]

186. Then at least have the decency to be honest about the reasons...

...instead of trying to demonize the man for things he has not done.

It's not about a difference of opinion, it's about irrational fear-mongering.

[cynatnite]

187. There are a lot of questionable actions he's taken and people have a right to be critical...

There've been accusations of electoral fraud, human rights violations, free speech issues, skyrocketing crime rate on his watch, and his rhetoric. These are important issues that shouldn't be dismissed or outright ignored just because they paint him in a bad light.

I admit that Chavez has done some good, but I'm not convinced it's enough to dismiss his questionable presidency. Also, I think Chavez is a nutjob who ought to be on medication, too. I'm not a doctor or anything...just my two cents for whatever it's worth.

But DO NOT expect everyone to like Chavez because you do or because you're a progressive.

[Eryemil]

191. What's worth more, baseless accussations and personal feelings

Or actual tangible results? He has done more than just 'some good' all of it which is easily verifiable.
You however have no real evidence for your claims or your fears.

So you are being irrational.

I do not expect people to be rational, most aren't. But you cannot expect that your opinions be given the same value as those that are actually based on actual information.


What I AM criticizing is the obtuse willingness to readily agree with right-wingers when we "liberals" more than anyone else should be weary of anything they have to say.
But hey, who knows. Those rich, parasitic bastards might just have developed a heart overnight.

Unlike you however, I am not willing to base my opinions on speculation.

[cynatnite]

192. I didn't think it was necessary to post links since this stuff has been discussed...

in great detail here on DU. Actually, it was debated and quite heatedly at times.

You outright dismissed my entire post because you didn't like the content. So who is being irrational?

[Eryemil]

193. "You outright dismissed my entire post because you didn't like the content"

No, I dismissed it because it lacked substance.

[EFerrari]

206. The elections in Venezuela are conducted on more transparent systems

than ours, are audited and monitored. There is no evidence of human rights violations that are significant. One guy from Human Rights Watch wrote some bad reports but he himself has been busted for being a less than neutral observer. There is no free speech problem -- the opposition controls 75% of the media and they excoriated Chavez most every day.

But, you're right that those stories have been fronted, over and over again.

There is a problem with violent crime in Venezuela. The government has tried different strategies to fight it but they have had no good results. That story is true, to my knowledge.

But Chavez's presidency has not been questionable. He has done more to alleviate the poverty of his people than any sitting leader on the American continent. And, it's your absolute right not to like him.

[EFerrari]

188. What is progressive about taking the word of a right wing celebrity

over Sean Penn?

[cynatnite]

190. I wasn't even talking about Maria...

But even before her, there were always quite a few here who don't Chavez.

[EFerrari]

195. Sure and they don't like him because propaganda works.

In LBN right now, there is a thread about an art exhibit this dictator shut down. It was of plasticized human bodies and many smart people found it fascinating. WTF is the matter with Chavez? Does he have to throw his weight around EVERYWHERE?

Well, it turns out, the exhibit uses human bodies that the sponsors sneak through customs and also, that no one can show were donated for that purpose. They all come from CHINA and are probably the bodies of dead Chinese prisoners. There's more info at the thread itself.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3775049

And it turns out that the leftist friend of Fidel strongman didn't shut the show down, the law in Venezuela did -- but that isn't as good a headline.

So, faced with a choice of how to react to the bodies of dead Chinese prisoners being hauled all over the place like so much lumber and for profit, people choose to blame Chavez for censorship -- because propaganda works. The United States didn't shut this horrible side show down although there were protests, notably in New York. But Hugo Chavez's government did shut it down -- which proves he must be an authoritarian, kitten eating dictator. :crazy:

[LynnTheDem]

197. 'a dictator and a killer"

And she greatly admires George W. bUsh.

[vaberella]

210. I saw the Revolution Will Not be Televised...Ms. Alanso is a Repub lover.

And hates the poor.

[pnutbutr]

212. good

It's about time someone said it.

[leftchick]

215. she is an idiot a repuke and a tool

http://www.latingossip.com/chisme/maria-conchita-alonso-for-john-mccain.html

so her musings mean nothing to me.

[Joanne98]

225. Maria Conchita Alonso should SHUT UP about what she doesn't know about.

Hugo Chavez paid off the IMF debts for all of S America. They are free from the exortionists for the first time in 50 years. He's also forming a Bank of the South so they never get in that position again. He's the best thing that's EVER happened to South America.

She obviously doesn't understand anything about economics. Spoiled brats are like that.

I don't want her or her RW ilk in this country. She needs to GET OUT!

And tell all her RW Venezuelan friends NOT TO COME HERE! They're NOT welcome!

[RufusTFirefly]

226. There is a huge racial component to this that many overlook

Although Chavez, like Obama, is of mixed ancestry, he is strongly identified -- both positively and negatively -- with his Amerindian descent. That has helped to make him a hero with Venezuela's indigenous people and a thorn in the side of Venezuelans of European descent who have long made up a significant portion of the ruling class.

[Eryemil]

230. YES! Finally, some else is saying it. n|t