Belief and the brain's 'God spot'

[babsbunny]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/belief-and-the-brains--god-spot-1641022.html

Scientists say they have located the parts of the brain that control religious faith. And the research proves, they contend, that belief in a higher power is an evolutionary asset that helps human survival. Steve Connor reports

Tuesday, 10 March 2009

The search for the God spot has in the past led scientists to many different regions of the brain.


A belief in God is deeply embedded in the human brain, which is programmed for religious experiences, according to a study that analyses why religion is a universal human feature that has encompassed all cultures throughout history.

Scientists searching for the neural "God spot", which is supposed to control religious belief, believe that there is not just one but several areas of the brain that form the biological foundations of religious belief.

[leftstreet]

1. Mebbe this explains why people have faith in the markets

Doesn't say which kind of 'god'

[GoesTo11]

2. The existence of that spot is more proof of an intelligent creator

It's like a remote control car with an antenna to receive the signal. A rock doesn't have an antenna to receive no signal.

[stopbush]

3. Leave it to the religious to take scientific research

and lower its implications to the banal and childish.

[mike_c]

4. oh for pete's sake....

It EVOLVED in response to selective pressure.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

8. The article seems to suggest it's a side effect of the capacity to make moral judgements.

Which in itself is useful for maintaining order in the group and therefore enhances one's odd of survival. Or, at least, did in primitive societies. We have LOTS of traits that were necessary in the distant past but now are hindrances. I maintain that the predisposition to religion is one of those.

[mike_c]

70. oh I agree completely...

...on all counts. I was responding to the DUer who thought a biological link was additional evidence of an intelligent creator.

[Oregone]

5. The existence of that spot is more proof man is compelled to create a creator

[tavalon]

116. Absolutely!

Whether there is a force beyond us is neither here nor there. We are storytellers and it's evolutionarily helpful. I find this fascinating. I believe in a higher power as I understand it and I've had religious "experiences" that go beyond mere belief. If that is because a bit of tissue in my brain got tickled, so be it. Those experiences have been the bedrock of my life and I don't really care how they came to be, it's more what I've chosen to do with those experiences that makes the woman.

I have no problem with people who are athiest. I do wonder about those who are absolutely sure one way or the other and who will not stand any questioning of their absolutism. Life is too fluid for such absolutism, no matter the ilk.

[SammyWinstonJack]

131. !

:-)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

6. That's like saying our susceptibility to electric shocks is proof of the existence of Zeus. -nt

[tavalon]

117. You understand perfectly!

Hello, fellow traveler.

[LeftyMom]

17. You've got to be fucking kidding me.

I mean really. Come on now.

[GoesTo11]

21. And a sense of humor would be evidence of a silly creator

That theory would explain a lot.

[damntexdem]

47. Hey, I like trickster gods.

So long as they're not too mean.

[FiveGoodMen]

23. No, it's more like an explanation

for how people could continue to be so gullible.

[fascisthunter]

37. lol

[damntexdem]

43. No proof of God, no proof of no God.

That's the thing about science: it can't tell us about anything that is not natural, not observable or detectable or measurable, or maybe manipulable. If could be that religious belief is the result of natural developments that somehow helped intelligent being survive in the world; or it could be that a supernatural power manipulated evolution to include a 'God spot.' Believe or disbelieve as you will; but don't try to blame it on science.

[GoesTo11]

49. What if MRI imaging yielded more accurate pictures

including a little tag that says "inspected by number 7"?

[H2O Man]

56. Perhaps it is

a part of the brain that allows one to "see" the connection between one's self and the universe around them, much like our eyes.

[omega minimo]

91. ...

:hi:

[Donnachaidh]

66. ....

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Odin2005]

128. No, it's proof that God is an invention of our own minds.

Malfunctioning temporal lobes are to a large extent responsible to seizures and auditory hallucinations (hearing voices).

[NeedleCast]

183. Please tell me this is sarcasim

please....please?

[Uncle Joe]

7. I wonder if fluctuations in the Earth's Magnetic Field could have or has had an effect

on the ebb and flow of religious fervor throughout human history?

"This work was followed by a study where scientists tried to stimulate the temporal lobes with a rotating magnetic field produced by a "God helmet". Michael Persinger, from Laurentian University in Ontario, found that he could artificially create the experience of religious feelings – the helmet's wearer reports being in the presence of a spirit or having a profound feeling of cosmic bliss."

Another observation, the paragraph below would suggest to me that animals may experience some form of spiritual feeling, especially primates. I also wonder about elephants as well, why would they carry the bones of their dead around for days? These bones no longer resemble the elephants, they used to know, so on some level, I would think elephants must be aware of or sense an alternate existence other than life.

"The study found that several areas of the brain are involved in religious belief, one within the frontal lobes of the cortex – which are unique to humans – and another in the more evolutionary-ancient regions deeper inside the brain, which humans share with apes and other primates, Professor Grafman said."

Thanks for the thread, babsbunny.

[DearAbby]

9. Either the Magnetic field

or the harmonics of the field, has the effect on all living creatures.

[Uncle Joe]

13. Yes but I'm looking for a direct historical religious correlation, according to this paragraph,

only 8 out of 10 were affected and the one mentioned notable exception wasn't religious. So I'm hypothesizing that for religious people those times of heavy magnetic field fluctuation would be particularly intense with the result of an up or down swing in religious, fundamentalist or evangelical fervor throughout the world's various societies.

"Dr Persinger said that about eight in every 10 volunteers report quasi-religious feelings when wearing his helmet. However, when Professor Richard Dawkins, an evolutionist and renowned atheist, wore it during the making of a BBC documentary, he famously failed to find God, saying that the helmet only affected his breathing and his limbs."

[omega minimo]

18. there will be no "direct historical religious correlation" b/c we all have souls, not located in the

brain. Perhaps this spot is the human bodies response to forces beyond it.


As for the magnetic fields, these are influential and observable on various life forms, including humans, even when the human brain doesn't believe it.

Since we are electromagnetic beings, how could it not?

[FiveGoodMen]

24. "we all have souls, not located in the brain"

Link, please.

[stopbush]

30. What is asserted without proof may be dismissed without proof.

That's a Hitchens link that seems to answer the question.

[omega minimo]

90. What evidence do you have that consciousness is limited to the brain?

[stopbush]

94. There's no evidence that it isn't.

Please present your evidence that consciousness exists outside the brain. You have asked me to prove a negative which is impossible. I merely ask you to prove a positive which should be quite simple to do if evidence exists.

[omega minimo]

99. There's plenty of evidence, based on experience. except someone convinced to ignore it, will deny it

Experience and science and despite the chuckleheaded ahole below this post, evidence based on basice science and anatomy. Let alone other levels of consciousness.

[Hanse]

102. Plenty of evidence? Great.

Then you won't have any problem citing any.

[omega minimo]

104. Already did

"except someone convinced to ignore it, will deny it"

[Hanse]

107. Cite it again.

Or cite some more, if there's plenty of it.

[omega minimo]

109. What part of discussion killer don't you comprehend?

[Hanse]

110. The part where you support your claim with evidence.

I'm looking and looking, but I just don't see a link.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stopbush]

127. No, there isn't any evidence. There is hearsay, opinion and wishful thinking.

You call it "experience," but experience and observation meaning nothing if not supported by evidence.

So, produce your evidence. And by that, I mean REAL evidence, scientific evidence.

[Hanse]

96. Brain injuries lead to loss of consciousness.

So does a decreased blood flow.

Various pharmaceutical compounds applied to the brain can cause loss of consciousness. Or altering of consciousness.

Reversal of these stimuli restore consciousness.

Did you drop out of 6th grade before you took health class? Because this is all elementary level material.

[omega minimo]

98. ah, the insults, a real conversation killer

I had a reply and some interest, right up until that BS at the end there. Homey don't play dat.


Anyway, you answered your own challenge with "Or altering of consciousness."

Have fun figuring it out for yourself. Feh.

[Hanse]

100. It's not an insult.

Small children have a better grasp of this material than you do.

If you find that insulting, perhaps you should do something about it.

"Anyway, you answered your own challenge with "Or altering of consciousness."

I didn't offer a challenge, goofy.

[omega minimo]

103. hoist on your own petard

[Hanse]

108. Take a look, it's in a book.

reading rainbow

[Odin2005]

130. Neuroscience. Read up on it!

I especially suggest reading The Phantoms in The Brain by Indian neurologist V. S. Ramachandran and his description of a neurological condition caused by stroke or traumatic brain injury called hemispherical neglect where a person is completely unconscious and unaware of one side of his/her body and all the sensory information from that half. They will shave only half of their face and eat food on only one half of the plate because they are completely unaware of the other half.

[omega minimo]

36. The brain telling itself that it is the be all and end all of consciousness doesn't make it so.

Link, please.

[FiveGoodMen]

44. Don't try to put words in my mouth.

[omega minimo]

52. um................ what?1!

:rofl: that makes absolutely no sense

[FiveGoodMen]

57. You made a statement and I asked you to prove it

You responded by arguing with a statement that I hadn't made.

The difference should be clear.

[omega minimo]

61. I made a statement. Not sure how you got it backwards. It's not all about you.

The difference should be clear


btw copy and paste + "link please" is not "asking" anything. Sorry, I don't speak Twitter.

It comes off as belligerent and so, unfortunately, will my reply in your style.

[FiveGoodMen]

62. Wow

[kimmerspixelated]

26. Exactly!

[Uncle Joe]

33. Yes but if we all have souls, wouldn't the brain be a logical place

for an antenna?

I agree with you these magnetic fields would affect everyone or at least as to the helmet experiment went, 8 out of 10, but assuming as you state and I don't disagree with you, that the Earth's Magnetic Field fluctuations literally affect everyone, wouldn't or couldn't religious people interpret this as being an intense religious experience, resulting in increased religious fervor.

While those people that aren't religious may have the effect of this emotion, feeling especially alive, good or bad as the case may be but not view it in a religious context.

I'm not taking a stance here one way or the other as to whether there is a God or not, either these Magnetic Field Fluctuations are a subtle message from the almighty or they're not. I'm just asking if there has been an effect?

[omega minimo]

39. yes. isn't the pituitary considered some sort of connection.......?

"the Earth's Magnetic Field fluctuations literally affect everyone, wouldn't or couldn't religious people interpret this as being an intense religious experience, resulting in increased religious fervor."

Perhaps. A connection with the divine. On some level. In the past, such a helmet to amplify the effect may not have been available or necessary. This experiment may make it much more intense, right? The range of effect may not have been limited to "religious."

"While those people that aren't religious may have the effect of this emotion, feeling especially alive, good or bad as the case may be but not view it in a religious context."

Yes. Solar flares can make people become agitated, seem "crazy," distracted. The news tells us to note the effects on computers and electronics, not ourselves or each other.

:hi:

[DearAbby]

48. Wouldnt the pituitary be affected

by the sound waves of the magnetic field? I donno, I keep thinking sound has a great effect on the human brain.

[omega minimo]

53. esp in a windtunnel in an echo chamber in a willfully ignorant circular firing squad

[Aethertek]

186. willful ignorance

What an apt description for religious belief. The upside to the article would be the implication that perhaps ignorance can be cured. Come on all you smart biochemists get to work on this, the survival of your species may depend on it. When your done with that get that aerosolized sterilization treatment worked out so the human race will stop breeding like rats.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

58. The sound waves of the magnetic field?

Sweet Jesus.

[omega minimo]

63. He heard that

:evilgrin:

[DearAbby]

72. Huh?

[conscious evolution]

166. Pineal gland

Is what you are thinking of.
It is the place in the brain where DMT is stored.DMT is considered by many to be a spirit molecule that allows access to other states of mind.
Many tantrics,yogas and Tai Chi's release DMT into the rest of the brain to bring about mystical/spiritual/religous Ecstasy states.

[omega minimo]

181. Pineal, thank you, that's it.

[Odin2005]

129. "We all have souls, not located in the brain" PROVE IT!!!

I'll bet you $1000 for real scientific evidence for the existance of an incorporeal "soul".

[omega minimo]

182. Here's a clue

Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Wed Mar-11-09 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #77
132. I have "experiences of the ineffable" too. I just don't need a BS term "god" and act like it is ...

...a being that answers my prayers and will give be eternal life if I obey it blindly. Something French philosopher Andre Comte-Sponville talks about in his recent book The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality.

[DearAbby]

115. Interesting theory..n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. The harmonics of the field?

:shrug:

[omega minimo]

20. like vibes?

:hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. Like baloney.

[omega minimo]

25. You've never heard of electromagnetic storms or solar flares?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. Sure I have.

You've never heard of pseudoscience?

[omega minimo]

31. how is Uncle Joe's post 7 you responded to "pseudoscience"?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. I didn't respond to Uncle Joe's post 7.

Is your solar flare acting up?

[omega minimo]

40. So you dispute the existence "the magnetic field" or "the harmonices of the field"?

b/c in a vibrating, electomagnetic universe, you don't budge? :spray:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. I don't know what "harmonices of the field" means.

Or "electromagnetic universe" either.

I don't know what frequency the earth's magnetic field vibrates at, but if you'd like to tell me I'm all ears.

What I do know is that it the earth's magnetic field, "harmonices" (sic), the "electromagnetic universe," and solar flares have nothing to do with the research in the OP.

It is, in essence, pseudoscience from scientifically illiterate rubes.

[omega minimo]

51. and you don't recall your own post #15? quit playing bs games.

"What I do know is that it the earth's magnetic field, "harmonices" (sic), the "electromagnetic universe," and solar flares have nothing to do with the research in the OP."

And how do you know that?

If you're unaware of science, how do you presume to call others "illiterate"?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. ...

"And how do you know that?"

Because I actually am literate in scientific matters.

[omega minimo]

64. yet claim ignorance of basic concepts. Strange.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. I don't claim ignorance of basic concepts.

I claim to be unaware of ill-defined misspelled pseudoscience woo woo logorrhea.

[omega minimo]

75. Perhaps you will find another thread of interest and let others discuss what you dismiss

maybe there better spelers over their, too

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

80. Nah, this is GD.

If people want to post loony scientifically illiterate crap, it's not going to go unchallenged.

There are places like the 9-11, health, and astrology groups if people don't like it.

But I'm guessing you're already aware of them.

[omega minimo]

84. "Unchallenged"? That doesn't mean flamed and locked by the bully club

What would be more "challenging" is a discussion with those who want to back up their own closemindedness with info :thumbsup:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

135. No.

It means if somebody makes an absurd claim, as you've done, they need to back it up with citations.

As you haven't.

[omega minimo]

140. Yet

some are able to contribute to DU without bullying and belligerence

As you haven't

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

144. You can't call people assholes then complain about bullying.

You're the most belligerent person in this thread, Omega.

[omega minimo]

148. you can't trample on others and then pretend to deserve more credibility to discuss

and of course bullies consider anyone who calls their BS, "belligerent"

:think:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

149. You're being called on your BS.

:shrug:

[omega minimo]

152. the attack mode just won't work. maybe readjust the attitude.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

153. It seems to be working pretty well.

You've embarassed yourself quite thoroughly.

[omega minimo]

158. It seems to be working pretty well.

You've discredited yourself quite thoroughly. And killed discussion.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

159. Not so. So far I've won the discussion.

You could easily win the discussion yourself by posting evidence for your claims. Boy, wouldn't that make me look bad?

But you're not going to. Because there isn't any evidence.

[omega minimo]

161. You win.

:spray:



Apparently you think a "discussion" is something you "win."

So attack mode works for you, eh? :rofl: Sad :cry:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

165. Yes, I know.

[omega minimo]

172. OIC

Arrive in jackboots

Stomp "opponents"

Insist on your demands being met

Hold discussion hostage

Discredit yourself by disrespecting DUers

Misrepresent your behavior

Pretend innocence and mere "asking questions"

Call that "discussion"

You "win"





As before "what part of discussion killer don't you understand?"

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

175. No.

1. Listen to other person.

2. Ask other person questions based on their comments.

3. Smile as other person gets irrationally upset. Calls other people names. Can't support their own arguments. Demonstrates a poor understanding of the natural world.

4. Win conversation.

"As before "what part of discussion killer don't you understand?""

I understand that you're "holding this discussion hostage" because you're refusing to provide evidence for your claims. If you admit there isn't any evidence, you can always retract your claims and move forward.

[omega minimo]

177. !

:rofl:

[Smith_3]

119. Because of an improper use of the word "harmonics".

A field is a superposition of its harmonics. The post above implied that a field and its harmonics are two seperate things. That isn't the case. It was obviously an attempt at appearing smart without having real knowledge of the subject.

For further information look here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_analysis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_series

In the case of electrodynamics, also interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_harmonics

[Uncle Joe]

139. I never used the word harmonics in my post.

Here's another possibility about trying to "appear smart", maybe I asked an honest hypothetical question based on what knowledge I have and my interpretation as to the experiment in the O.P.

Maybe you're feeling insecure, but I wouldn't presume to know, but one thing I can presume, that is in hoping that you're not a teacher.

[omega minimo]

145. My mistakes, Uncle Joe. Sorry

In response to a reply in the subthread off your post, I referred to your post and then misspelled "harmonics", which gave the respondent something to be petty about and pretend not to understand.

Now this other one is providing the godspotless with LINKS PLEASE, to wikipedia, apparently the last word in scientific research and credibility.

Again, the willful ignorance serves that poster's purposes, b/c someone's reply "implied" somthing.


DearAbby (1000+ posts)
Tue Mar-10-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Either the Magnetic field

or the harmonics of the field, has the effect on all living creatures.


Smith_3 (1000+ posts)  
Wed Mar-11-09 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #31
120. Because of an improper use of the word "harmonics".

A field is a superposition of its harmonics. The post above implied that a field and its harmonics are two seperate things. That isn't the case. It was obviously an attempt at appearing smart without having real knowledge of the subject.
-------------------------------------------


To discredit the previous post, which "implied that a field and its harmonics are two seperate things," s/he explains that one is a subset of the other, interrelated yet distinct, in at least verbal terms for their "superpositional" relationship.

So, rather than a discussion of the topic or the field and harmonics that are not two separate things, they would rather tussle over petty points and semantices, (oops, misspelled that too).

Rather than discover points of understanding and go from there.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

146. No, Dear Abby did.

Omega minimo was confused in thinking I replied to you as opposed to Dear Abby.

Your comments involving pseudoscience were the ones involving the magnetic field influencing people, and elephants sensing an afterlife.

[Uncle Joe]

157. Is it not science to question?

Doesn't all science begin with a hypothesis?

Why do you think elephants carry the bones of other deceased elephants around for days? I've seen this behavior on nature programs.

If this so called "God Helmet" using electro magnetic fields to stimulate the brain has produced an apparent tangible result, doesn't it seem logical, the Earth's Magnetic Field could be doing the same, on a more subtle level and yet macro scale?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

163. ...

"Why do you think elephants carry the bones of other deceased elephants around for days?"

I don't know. Because they're sad?

"If this so called "God Helmet" using electro magnetic fields to stimulate the brain has produced an apparent tangible result, doesn't it seem logical, the Earth's Magnetic Field could be doing the same, on a more subtle level and yet macro scale?"

No. The earth's magnetic field is weak and uniform on the scale of the human brain. The earth's magnetic field has no effect on the human brain, which can be tested using a person exposed to the earth's magnetic field, and a person who's protected from the earth's magnetic field via a Faraday cage. Which, ironically, could be a tinfoil hat.

[Uncle Joe]

170. So if an elephant is sad,

they must have memories of the past, but in carrying bones which in no way resemble deceased elephants, isn't it logical to assume elephants associate a symbol; in this case bones of their deceased friends and family with life?

Furthermore if a symbol and life can be associated, isn't that abstract thinking?

My understanding of the word abstract is thinking apart from perception.

Regarding the Earth's Magnetic Field's effect, doesn't it fluctuate and if it did, does this change those Webers and Maxwells, I read about in my Dictionary?

I haven't been to school in over thirty years, so please bare with my ignorance on any Physics level.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

178. It indicates an elephant may be able to have some degree of abstract thought.

That abstract thought being "these bones belong to my mother who I remember dying here last rainy season." That's got nothing to do with the after life, sixth senses, or electromagnetism.

"Regarding the Earth's Magnetic Field's effect, doesn't it fluctuate"

The earth's magnetic field does fluctuate over a geologic time scale. It's certainly not a harmonic oscillator on the scale of human activity.

"if it did, does this change those Webers and Maxwells, I read about in my Dictionary?"

No, due to the aforementioned time scale, the magnetic flux of the earth's magnetic field is essentially a constant with regard to the affairs of the human brain.

The monitor you're sitting in front of has a far more impact on magnetic flux when you switch it on and off.

[omega minimo]

184. see

you are capable of discussion :applause: good job

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

188. Yes, I know.

The reason the conversation between you and me has stalled is because of failures on your part.

[omega minimo]

191. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5224667&mesg_id=5225133

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

193. And you continue to illustrate my point.

[omega minimo]

194. the point is

you are completely oblivious to your own behavior and don't take responsibility for it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

196. No, I'm completely aware of my behaviour.

And I stand by my claim that you're full of baloney.

[omega minimo]

198. if

that's how you enter "discussion," you are responsible.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5224667&mesg_id=5232008

[Uncle Joe]

189. I only used the elephant behavior example as a possible furtherance to

evidence suggested in this paragraph of the O.P. article in looking at the basis of spiritual belief or faith as a hardwired evolutionary trait.

"The study found that several areas of the brain are involved in religious belief, one within the frontal lobes of the cortex – which are unique to humans – and another in the more evolutionary-ancient regions deeper inside the brain, which humans share with apes and other primates, Professor Grafman said."

Throughout history religion has risen and fallen in popularity and passion and I thought maybe there was an electro magnetic connection.

Thanks for your input.

[omega minimo]

168. .

yes. there are larger forces at work here. including solar flare influence on Earth's magnetic field.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

169. Solar flares don't influence the human brain.

:shrug:

[omega minimo]

176. do you have any evidence of that? Links. please? TY

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

179. Why should I provide evidence and links if you won't?

[omega minimo]

180. You can't

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

187. Yes, I can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_therapy

[omega minimo]

192. could you point out the reference there to solar flares effects on humans?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

195. No.

Solar flares don't affect humans.

If you want a reference for that, read the article I posted.

Small magnets have no physiological effect on human tissues or humans writ large.

And small magnets have a magnetic field quite a bit stronger than that from solar flares as felt on earth.

[omega minimo]

197. no

no proof of that



"Solar flares don't affect humans."


"And small magnets have a magnetic field quite a bit stronger than that from solar flares as felt on earth."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

205. Actually, yeah it is.

"'Solar flares don't affect humans.'"

Are you not arguing that solar flares have a magnetic influence on human life? If by some other mechanism than magnetism, please address it and I'll debunk it too.

"'And small magnets have a magnetic field quite a bit stronger than that from solar flares as felt on earth.'"

Omega, the magnetic field of a small refridgerator magnet is significantly stronger than a solar flare, as felt by the person holding the magnet.

[omega minimo]

206. that's absurd

is there any study on the effects of solar flares on humans, at those times we are warned that all our telecommunications and computers are impaccted?

The comparison to a refrigerator magnet is just silly.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

208. Why is a comparison to a refrigerator magnet silly?

Small magnets have a much stronger magnetic field.

The silly comparison, Omega, is the comparison of human beings to the power grid.

If human beings pulled thousands of volts over thousands of miles, then one would expect humans to be influence by very weak but very wide magnetic field fluctuations. But that ain't the case.

"is there any study on the effects of solar flares on humans"

There are studies on the effects of magnetic fields on humans, and that's what I linked to in the article.

Are you saying there's something special about the magnetic field that comes from solar flares, versus any other sort of magnet?

[omega minimo]

147. someone truly versed in and interested in science

would not automatically discount everything that doesn't already fit in their closed rat trap of conventional thinking.

It doesn't make them appear smart, it makes them appear unaware of the full range of science and evidence worth discussing.

You're right, I hope this indoctrination and bully behavior is not being inflicted on yet another generation.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

151. If the evidence is worth discussing...

why are you refusing to discuss it?

[omega minimo]

154. .

:thumbsup: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5224667&mesg_id=5231710

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

155. Asking you a hard question is a form of attack?

Asking you questions is a form of bullying?

But Omega, anyone truly verse in and interested in science is able to accept questions. Particularly ones which challenge their preconcieved beliefs.

[omega minimo]

160. and then the pretending

that the belligerent approach is "asking you questions." :rofl:

[Smith_3]

120. His post was indeed pseudoscience.

Look here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5224667&mesg_id=5228983

[omega minimo]

201. ,

[omega minimo]

202. "It was obviously an attempt at appearing smart without having real knowledge of the subject."

The post:
DearAbby (1000+ posts)
Tue Mar-10-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Either the Magnetic field

or the harmonics of the field, has the effect on all living creatures.


Your reply:
Smith_3 (1000+ posts)
Wed Mar-11-09 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #31
120. Because of an improper use of the word "harmonics".

A field is a superposition of its harmonics. The post above implied that a field and its harmonics are two separate things. That isn't the case. It was obviously an attempt at appearing smart without having real knowledge of the subject.
-------------------------------------------

OBVIOUSLY :eyes:

Your own post "implies" that they are two separate things, at least semantically, each aspects of the other, in a "superpositional" relationship and not actually separate.

:hi: It would be very interesting to learn from your knowledge, or hear what context Dear Abby was referring to, rather than have the post/er shot down with petty semantics topped off with an insult.

If science is treated by some as intellectual blood sport, no wonder some sciencebound types shoot down anything that might challenge their assumptions, ego and insistence on topdogging anyone they can.

The wiki posts, esp. the second one, didn't provide any definitive info. Is wikipedia the be all and end all of scientific certitude these days?

The next time someone says LINK PLEASE, we should just passive/aggressively post some arbitrary link to wiki and if someone can't put an answer together themselves from a page of wikiness, they're an idiot?

A few searches prove that there is a wide range of discussion in different contexts regarding magnetic fields in relation to resonance -- different WORDS (which you used yourself, implying they are different) for different aspects even if they're not two separate THINGS.

I'll bet you that Dear Abby knows that.

Sorry the phrasing didn't meet the standards of the wiki wielding brainiacs, too busy being "right" to share their insights with DU.

Or maybe insights come from the godspot that so many deem bunk

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

207. ...

"If science is treated by some as intellectual blood sport, no wonder some sciencebound types shoot down anything that might challenge their assumptions, ego and insistence on topdogging anyone they can."

Uh, well, yeah. Science is a place where ideas are constantly being forwarded, questioned, tested, and the better ideas are victorious. While the patently bad ideas are left bruised, battered, and end up on a long bus ride home.

Ego has nothing to do with it.

"The wiki posts, esp. the second one, didn't provide any definitive info. Is wikipedia the be all and end all of scientific certitude these days?"

Wikipedia is certainly an adequate source for the context of this discussion. If you've got an issue with the scientific merit of the articles on wiki, I'd love to hear it. The second article on Fourier series is clearly a logical continuation of first article. Although I'm sure a person would be confused if they didn't understand all the big words. But then again, if people are going to talk about harmonics, there's nothing in the articles that's too complicated.

Either way, links to wikipedia are certainly better than what you provided: nothing.

"The next time someone says LINK PLEASE, we should just passive/aggressively post some arbitrary link to wiki and if someone can't put an answer together themselves from a page of wikiness, they're an idiot?"

If somebody is curious about what you have to say and requests more information, then the correct, polite, and intelligent thing to do is to post a link. Not an arbitrary link, but one that has to do with the topic at hand.

"Sorry the phrasing didn't meet the standards of the wiki wielding brainiacs, too busy being "right" to share their insights with DU."

When you discuss science, Omega, terminology is important. "Energy," for example, might mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people, particularly the scientifically illiterate. But it has a specific meaning in science.

"Or maybe insights come from the godspot that so many deem bunk"

It's not the insights from the actual work in the OP that's deemed bunk, but the silly interpretations of other peoples work from people who don't know what they're talking about.

[omega minimo]

209. again the pretending

Truly hilarious.

"Uh, well, yeah. Science is a place where ideas are constantly being forwarded, questioned, tested, and the better ideas are victorious. While the patently bad ideas are left bruised, battered, and end up on a long bus ride home."

So what happens here is self appointed censors skip the part where "where ideas are constantly being forwarded, questioned, tested" and cut right to the "victorious" bruising, battering and calling that "winning."

:eyes:

"If somebody is curious about what you have to say and requests more information, then the correct, polite, and intelligent thing to do is to post a link."

:rofl:

The "the correct, polite, and intelligent thing to do" would be to start by actually expressing more effectively than a one word swipe followed by "LINK PLEASE." The honest and intelligent thing to do would be to not rewrite the record and attempt to claim that that monosyllabic demand was "polite" and presented as being "curious about what you have to say and requests more information." :rofl:

That's why the bullying kills discussion.

The pretending later that it was presented in a way that invited discussion is BALONEY.


"If you've got an issue with the scientific merit of the articles on wiki, I'd love to hear it."

If you've got a point to make based on the scientific articles and can be bothered to post it, rather than link a wiki page, I'd love to see it.
:hi:


"... a person would be confused if they didn't understand all the big words."
"...might mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people, particularly the scientifically illiterate."
"...the silly interpretations of other peoples work from people who don't know what they're talking about."

"Ego has nothing to do with it."

Ego must have something to do with it or your language for being "victorious" would not reflect physical battery. The pretense is of being "correct, polite, and intelligent" and the reality continues the "insistence on topdogging anyone they can."

Your insults to everyone who doesn't meet your criteria for discussion -- whom you can't just leave alone and allow to discuss, or contribute informatively and respectfully -- is proof of that.

[Control-Z]

27. a "God helmet"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

sorry, I just can't help myself!

Can't. Stop. Laughing.

:rofl:

[GoesTo11]

35. $59.96 at Walmart.

I got two for the kids last Solstice.

[tridim]

74. Sounds like something Vince would sell on TV

:rofl:

[yodermon]

78. It's a sham.

Wow!

[msongs]

10. the same brain spot that controls fleecing people out of their money nt

[Donnachaidh]

71. will those holy bags of water pushed on Robertson's channel

revive the god spot in heathens? Enquiring minds, dontcha know....:evilgrin:

[SammyWinstonJack]

133. .

:spray:

[RiverStone]

11. Are you talking about the G spot or God spot?

Don't know much about religion, but...:)

[guitar man]

12. Beat me to it

I was going to say, I found the god spot and it isn't in the brain. She was certainly going "oh god ohh god oh god!" when I I found it. :evilgrin:

[RiverStone]

16. Now that's enlightenment!

:hi:

[guitar man]

19. !!

:hi:

:rofl:

[H2O Man]

60. The stegosaurus

is said to have had two brains. One was in the head, of course. The other was apparently located in the hip region, and may have had control over a large part of its nervous system.

I'm at a loss to explain how your post reminded me of this.

[mike_c]

73. unless I'm mistaken-- and that's been known to happen occasionally...

...that second "brain" is more a metaphor than anything else. The vertebrate "brain" has a particular structure that is not repeated anywhere else in the nervous system. I believe the organ you're referring to is the caudal ganglion, which has been surmised to oversee a number of neurological events in the posteriors of large, slow witted dinosaurs and members of congress. Seriously though-- the caudal ganglion is not an accessory "brain." That's just a metaphor for its extra utility in some animals (including many modern insects, BTW).

[H2O Man]

82. Now I have

the perfect answer when my wife suggests that I think with the big head.

[mike_c]

89. our work here is done, Tonto....

:rofl:

[annabanana]

14. Back when we were all in scattered tribes in the wilderness . .

that spot must have been necessary for the survival of the species.

[NashVegas]

42. And Now That We're All Perfectly Capable of Behaving In a Civilized Manner, We No Longer Need It?

That is, everyone except those kids who beat up the homeless.

And stock traders, them too.

And housing investors who buy up affordable homes, put in granite counter-tops and jack the price up $100k.

Need I go on?

It's amazing that 85% of our country *claims* to believe in a god, and yet pulls all that shit.

[annabanana]

83. IMHO

Humans being the thick things that they are... the MESSAGE has been lost in the worship of the MAN. All religious traditions share some basic fundamental facts regarding how people ought to treat each other. All of them manage to crust up those essentials seeds with dogma and new rules that make sense to their host societies at the time... which get further codified in subsequent generations.. until they are unable to transmit that which is most essential.

The gene will only function as required if people manage to transcend the traditions.

[omega minimo]

101. good point.

:applause:

[MedleyMisty]

29. I think it's wired differently in my brain

I can't think of anyone on either side of my family who's religious, so I guess I didn't get the God genes.

[SammyWinstonJack]

134. I didn't get it either, thank Gawd!

:evilgrin:

[KG]

32. that article is a steaming pile of b.s.

[Vickers]

38. "injected radioactive isotope into Buddhists at the point at which they achieved meditative nirvana"

Now THERE'S a visual...

[GoesTo11]

41. I read that dyslexic brains are wired a little differently

They have a Dog, Spot.

[Ilsa]

LOL. I like that. And they name him Spot. Love it. nt

[Ilsa]

67. LOL. I like that. And they name him Spot. Love it. nt

[The Straight Story]

46. So people are born that way eh

Hmmmm

[GoesTo11]

50. Zing!

That is not just a cute observation, but, in the right hands, one that may prove very useful in societal debate about other ways people are born.

[omega minimo]

54. people evolved that way

:hi:

[LanternWaste]

55. Biological predestination...

Biological predestination... :evilgrin:

[leftofthedial]

68. Puh-raze jeebiz

[Ilsa]

69. So maybe those of us that have enough trauma in their lives

and "lose faith" are actually experiencing something that works like depression where your neurons aren't firing properly. I haven't felt "faith" in a long time. There are other things I've felt that are more supernatural, but not a sensation of God Be With Me.

[omega minimo]

85. Maybe that's part of the continuum of experience that doesn't fit in the God/No God boxes

"There are other things I've felt that are more supernatural, but not a sensation of God Be With Me."

[BlooInBloo]

76. (facepalm)

[Beam Me Up]

77. "religious faith" or "experience of the ineffable" ?

To me "religious faith" means belief in a particular set of symbols that codify what might be more objectively an "experience of the ineffable". The former is a symbolization or representation of the latter. The latter might be a subjective experience, a state of consciousness that has (or seems to have) "profound" or "sublime" or "transcendent" implications. But the point is that it is "experiential," not something I merely "think" but something that fills my whole being.

So -- what is being talked about here, religious experience or the brain's tendency to codify experience symbolically and thus create religious symbols systems?

[omega minimo]

86. it could be

that's what's being described is the actual experience, prior to the definitions, demarcations and flamewars.

Thanks for posting. This resembles discussion. :bounce: There is a whole range of experience............... possibly connected to this research and we may -- as human beings -- all have it in common.


"...an "experience of the ineffable"..... might be a subjective experience, a state of consciousness that has (or seems to have) "profound" or "sublime" or "transcendent" implications.


The arguments are over the terms.

thanks for the post.

[Odin2005]

132. I have "experiences of the ineffable" too. I just don't need a BS term "god" and act like it is ...

...a being that answers my prayers and will give be eternal life if I obey it blindly. Something French philosopher Andre Comte-Sponville talks about in his recent book The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality.

[Beam Me Up]

136. Yes, that's why I'm asking the question.

From the way this article is written, I can't tell whether what is being discussed is areas within the brain which are responsible for this experienced "sensation" (not sure what to call it) or whether they're talking about the religious symbolism that gets tacked onto that more or less "after the fact" (but not always).

Way back in the 1970s a structuralist showed, from that perspective, there was no difference between "ufo sightings" and "spiritual visitations". The book "Brain, Symbol and Experience," delves into this question, too.

[omega minimo]

164. great posts. thank you for stating it so well

:hi:

[conscious evolution]

171. There is another book

that says the same thing.
DMT:The Spirit Molecule by DR.Rick Strassman,MD.
He did a clinical study on DMT and one of the observations made is that UFO sightings/alien abduction were vary similar to what his study participants/subjects were reporting.

Tin foil hat time:I know a few people who think that the goverment flouridates water because it causes calcification of the pineal gland which prevents DMT releases.

[Beam Me Up]

210. DMT and I are old friends.

Since 1967.

And, no, I don't drink fluoridated water.

[omega minimo]

162. Absolutely. That was Beam's point.

:toast:

[Marr]

79. Very interesting. I would point out one thing, however.

The article says, "...and the research proves, they contend, that belief in a higher power is an evolutionary asset that helps human survival".

Just because something improved the chances of survival at one time does not mean it still does so. I would say religion may be one of those things that was a net benefit when we lived in huts, but is now a net negative.

[IrishBuckeye]

81. The God Part of the Brain talks about this, published in 1996 (link inside)

http://www.amazon.com/God-Part-Brain-Matthew-Alper/dp/0966036700

[omega minimo]

88. Welcome to DU. Sound familiar?

"aside from the fact that his anti-faith proclamations themselves demonstrate a certain kind of blind faith, he gives no credence to others' views, nor is he compassionate to the helpful role that spirituality plays in peoples' lives."

[omega minimo]

87. They might have used the word "connection" rather than "belief"

please look at the posts right before yours that touch on the experience. Perhaps there is something to the brain research being filtered through limited expectations/vocabularies of the researchers/writers.

There is extensive research on dreams used by (most) indigenous cultures for survival, including as a "net benefit when we lived in huts."

[Marr]

92. My problem is with the present tense word "helps", rather than "helped".

You might be able to build an argument that religious belief was beneficial to human survival at a certain point in our history, but I don't think it follows that the same is true today. Quite the opposite, in my humble opinion.

[omega minimo]

106. I'm not sure the brain activity, if it occurs

is about "religion," nor is it obsolete.

[wuvuj]

173. In the worlds current situation....

...religion is like a noose around our necks? From the NEW CRUSADES to Israel's insanity...to the Pope and the right to lifers still wanting to overpopulate?

The god spot might also be a disease process? I say virally caused and an inflammatory process.

I've had the disease before.

[omega minimo]

190. similar to

blind belief in "science" and the "rational" causing closed minds and hostile reactions to anything that pushes the envelope of the Already Known.

As different from true science as religion is from spirituality, as zealotry is from rationale.

[wuvuj]

213. Good point...

It's the same disease.....all "belief and faith" and no real thinking involved? It's REAL EASY when your god...whomever it might be...is always right and is all powerful.

[jmm]

93. The only part of this article that compared different beliefs showed

people of different faiths and atheists used the same parts of the brain when dealing with moral issues-

They found that people of different religious persuasions and beliefs, as well as atheists, all tended to use the same electrical circuits in the brain to solve a perceived moral conundrum – and the same circuits were used when religiously-inclined people dealt with issues related to God.

Ok maybe these studies show what part of the brain deals with morality but they're trying way to hard to spin this.

[omega minimo]

97. ,

"aside from the fact that his anti-faith proclamations themselves demonstrate a certain kind of blind faith, he gives no credence to others' views, nor is he compassionate to the helpful role that spirituality plays in peoples' lives."

[jmm]

122. I would've much rather read an opinion piece full of quotes like that

or a more objective article analyzing scientific findings but this tries to do both and fails.

[omega minimo]

141. ok

[LiberalPersona]

95. Religion = survival trait

I fail to see a connection there, in fact it looks like quite the opposite to me, looking at history.

[NoodleyAppendage]

105. Time to open clinics for "God spot"ectomies. Remove that offending area! Solve society's problems!

J

[omega minimo]

111. wow, what did they do to you!

[NoodleyAppendage]

124. Hmm...let's see. Denying gays marriage rights, subjugating women, fighting wars, etc.

Watch Religulous and get back to me.

[anonymous171]

126. If you see it that way, it's really fear/anger that is the problem.

We should get rid of that too.

[omega minimo]

150. IMHO

the OP is about a range of experience, somehow localized in the brain (or not) related to a sense of interconnectedness beyond the human body.

It would be an interesting topic for discussion.

The writers and researchers apparently are calling that "religious."

There may be more to the story and the range experience than specific behavior that you associated with "religious"?

[tavalon]

118. No thanks

I would much rather continue to be touched by his or her noodley appendage.

[anonymous171]

123. Yep. Then once they find the gay gene we can set up gay clinics to cure that ill as well!

Homogenous society FTW!

[NoodleyAppendage]

125. You don't need religion to be a heterogeneous populace. Cultural differences exist beyond religion.

Straw man, sorry.

J

[bridgit]

113. Correct

[omega minimo]

114. .

[Fumesucker]

121. The fact that different nations vary widely in the level of belief of their populations..

Makes it fairly clear that this so called "God Spot" is really just the portion of the brain which we use to deal with moral questions.

Religious belief varies widely, from well under twenty percent in Iceland to over ninety percent in certain Middle Eastern nations.

Since humans are remarkably similar genetically, it therefore seems evident to me that belief or lack of such in the supernatural is largely determined by culture.

Also, the fact that religious belief has declined by eleven percent in the last eighteen years in the USA makes it clear that culture has far more to do with religiosity than does genetics, the genetics of the US has certainly not changed eleven percent in the last eighteen years.

[Sequoia]

137. Who is that person in your little photo?

[backtoblue]

138. interesting enough

I am a mortician and when a body is cremated, there is a part of the brain that does not burn - believed to be the brain stem. There are theories as to why it stays, but it is somewhat of a mystery.

[omega minimo]

156. wow. who knew? what happens to it?

[backtoblue]

200. because some people might be sensitive

I won't go into details, but it goes wherever the person running the crematory decides to put it. Usually ground in with bones.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

167. The brain stem burns just like the rest of the brain.

No mystery.

[backtoblue]

199. maybe so, but

My professors in college are responsible for my education and that is what is taught. Whether it IS a part of the brain or another part of the body is only theoretical, but the part that stays behind is NOT bone. It is spongy and about the size of a plum.

[omega minimo]

203. Spongy even after immolation?

[backtoblue]

204. Well

hard as bone- no , soft as sponge - no. It just has a softer texture than that of bone, so you can tell that it is composed of different tissue

[conscious evolution]

174. Is it shaped like a pine cone?

[dkofos]

142. The god spot is really a dead spot in the brain caused from excessive prayer.

I prefer to study the other G spot.

[dcindian]

143. The eternal sunshine of the spotless mind.

has a whole new meaning now.....

[bethdoc]

185. James Randi Education Foundation

If anyone is interested in scientific data collected to prove or disprove all kinds of supernatural stuff: http://www.randi.org/site/

[Beam Me Up]

211. Oh, god, puLEEze -- not THAT cia front org

[omega minimo]

212. they don't want any competition

in all things spooky.



The lead story on the site right now tries to make an issue out of artichoke and dandelion having health benefits. :yoiks: that's just KOOKOO!!!11!!

How could regular old plants, like the ones used medicianally in different cultures right out of the GROUND for millennia compete with patented, privatized at public expense PHARMACEUTICALS derived/synthesized from plants right out of the ground?

KOO KOO WACK A DOODLE. :freak: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!

[Beam Me Up]

214. As far as I'm concerned, they are the nerd version of freeper town. n/t